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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2005why biodiesel has high lubricity?
exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? > exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? Why does the sun shine? Huw Because its real slippery? > exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? Chemically and physically, because the molecular chains are relatively long. Long chains are usually 'oily';that is, they have increased viscosity over water, and they move slowly or sluggishly compared with shorter chained or smaller molecules. They usually have little mutual solubility with water. When such a molecule gets into an area where friction is an issue, it tends to wet the surfaces and stay in place (re sluggish) , reducing friction. Some molecules are better at reducing friction than pure oils or hydrocarbons, in particular those containing phosphorus, sulfur, halogens, and sometimes metal components. >> exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? > > Chemically and physically, because the molecular chains are relatively > long. I have a feeling that he may want to know why the molecular chains are relatively long. Huw > >> exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Huw Good question. Extemporaneously, most natural oils, from soybeans, peanuts, trees, etc, contain mixtures of fatty oils having chains from something below about 14 carbons (coconut oil having fairly low chain lengths) to something over 22 carbons, 18 being most normal. The unsaturated oils tend to be liquids, the saturates are often like waxes. These are the same types of oils you cook with, put on your salad, etc. The human body makes and stores fats of about the same length. Eat too much, and your body makes these same types of fats as glycerin esters. Why an average of 18 carbons? Much longer and the fats tend to become waxy and not too conducive to the health of the organism. Shorter ones are produced too, like the 4 and 5 carbon butyrates (butter) and valerates. These tend to be highly odiferous, somewhat volatile. The shorter ones dont seem to be as useful for either plants or animals as far as energy storage is concerned, but they are useful as odorants, etc. Plants (and animals) can be somewhat genetically manipulated to produce somewhat more or less of the specific fats, but the cost goes up. For fuel purposes, the best option is to use what you can get cheaply and with the least modification and processing necessary. Hence, the biodiesel systems that are common today. Could plants make something like gasoline? Yes, they already do, but only in limited quantities. Terpenes like turpentine, dipentene, limonene, etc could be blended and burned with relatively little processing, but they are expensive. Some esters might also be useful as gasoline substitutes. Probably could be enhanced, but not worth it until the cost of fuel goes up drastically. Maybe never. Taking this a little in the OT direction, but these claims for pre-oilers always gave me a giggle. They claim that when the engine sits for some time, the oil drains COMPLETELY into the oil pan, and even cranking the engine with the starter does far more damage than many miles worth of running. Actually I have a hard time getting metal surfaces completely clean of oil :-) snip > Chemically and physically, because the molecular chains are relatively long. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > When such a molecule gets into an area where friction is an issue, it tends > to wet the surfaces and stay in place (re sluggish) , reducing friction. > Taking this a little in the OT direction, but these claims for > pre-oilers always gave me a giggle. They claim that when the engine > sits for some time, the oil drains COMPLETELY into the oil pan, and even > cranking the engine with the starter does far more damage than many > miles worth of running. Actually I have a hard time getting metal > surfaces completely clean of oil :-) I tend to agree. A properly engineered preoiler wouldn't hurt anything, especially if it came as an OEM addition from the manufacturer so that the warranty would not be in jeopardy. I don't know that it would help anything either. True drysump systems would, I would think, take into account that it might take a moment to get oil flowing from the remote sump. Then, there aren't many dry sump systems in the sorts of cars most of us drive. In my slanted view, the more complex a system becomes (and the greater the number of individual parts), the more troublesome it promises to be, especially as it ages. Just like us humans. > Taking this a little in the OT direction, but these claims for pre-oilers > always gave me a giggle. They claim that when the engine sits for some > time, the oil drains COMPLETELY into the oil pan, and even cranking the > engine with the starter does far more damage than many miles worth of > running. Actually I have a hard time getting metal surfaces completely > clean of oil :-) Well, the issue is just how long it sits, and how much weight/force is on the bearings when you start turning things. Large stationary power units use 'pre-oiler' pumps that keep the oil circulating at a very low pace all the time. Then on a loss of power, the pump obviously stops. But because it was 'recently' running, the engine can be automatically started and broght on line in as little as 10 seconds. If the engine had sat for a month or two without any 'soak-back', you can bet the bearings would wipe on such a start up (especially considering the amount of oil it takes to fill all the crank passages and oil galleries). But yes, the typical claims of a lot of these small units, and the 'super-oils' that claim to prevent such damage are mostly BS. daestrom You could increase the oiling properties by adding a long molecule additive (slowly) to the oil when it is warm and running (think STP in the very old days, but something similar would work as well) I personally think that this sort of thing is only crucial in a few circumstances, such as not running an engine for a looonnng time and then expecting it to run and work under load ASAP. With some antique cars, I turn them over on the starter--fuel or spark OFF-- until pressure is up and running, at least thirty seconds or so, in two or three bursts. I also turn over engines on the starter--without gas or spark-- several times on their long sleep over winter, without running them, just to get fresh oiling internally. The only other circumstance where oiling is crucial is where there is a supercharger or similar unit. Never turn off hot and bothered abruptly--let the the unit slow down by itself by idling the engine for a couple of minutes--keep the bearings oiled. Similarly, let a motor run to warm before putting it and a supercharger under stress. Jim Bartley on PEI *just an opinion* > Taking this a little in the OT direction, but these claims for > pre-oilers always gave me a giggle. They claim that when the engine [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > When such a molecule gets into an area where friction is an issue, it tends > > to wet the surfaces and stay in place (re sluggish) , reducing friction. > exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds to metal. Biodiesel strongly adsorbs to metal surfaces, presenting a forest of lubricious hydrocarbon tails to the outside world.  SignatureUncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf >> exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? > > Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds > to metal. Biodiesel strongly adsorbs to metal surfaces, presenting a > forest of lubricious hydrocarbon tails to the outside world. Sounds good enough to eat. Huw >Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds >to metal. Biodiesel strongly adsorbs to metal surfaces, presenting a >forest of lubricious hydrocarbon tails to the outside world. Does it means that if it binds to metal ,biodiesel is partly ionic? > >Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds > >to metal. Biodiesel strongly adsorbs to metal surfaces, presenting a > >forest of lubricious hydrocarbon tails to the outside world. > > Does it means that if it binds to metal ,biodiesel is partly ionic? Polar is a better description. The components may not display any appreciable ionic character, but they do have polar sites.... > > exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > Uncle Al Well said, Uncle Alan... Apparently some of the chemistry and physics involved in these systems are still not easily explained. My ex husband-in-law (ex wifes ex husband) worked for a lubricant company in the Los Angeles area. He says that the poly(isobutylene) compounds hold onto the surfaces in a manner that is still not fully explained, but the effects are measurable and positive. With all the branching, one could surmise that the lubricity would be good, but why it adheres the way it does is perhaps interesting. Snakeoil is one of the best of lubricants;>) UA: Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds to metal. Biodiesel strongly adsorbs to metal surfaces, presenting a forest of lubricious hydrocarbon tails to the outside world. ================================================= Does anyone know if there is a biodiesel engine lube? Is regular old B100 with less thinning suitable as a crankcase lubricant? > UA: > Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does anyone know if there is a biodiesel engine lube? Is regular old > B100 with less thinning suitable as a crankcase lubricant? John Deere market both an engine and transmission oil. Have a look at their web site. Huw > UA: > Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does anyone know if there is a biodiesel engine lube? Is regular old > B100 with less thinning suitable as a crankcase lubricant? Not exactly. Modern engine lubricants are better and more stable than an unformulated vegetable oil blend would be. In the distant past, highly refined and formulated castor oil was used as an engine lubricant, as a matter of fact. This would be closely related to fatty oils used in biodiesels. There was some previous discussion as to whether the Castrol name might have been derived from this product, and I am not sure we ever got to the bottom of that one. > > UA: > > Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There was some previous discussion as to whether the Castrol name might > have been derived from this product, It was. > and I am not sure we ever got to the > bottom of that one. Castor oil is/was an excellent lubricant, but deteriorated quickly. Hence it was used for racing engines for one race - and the smell of 1920/30s race tracks was a sweet smell of burnt castor oil. > Castor oil is/was an excellent lubricant, but deteriorated quickly. > Hence it was used for racing engines for one race - and the smell of > 1920/30s race tracks was a sweet smell of burnt castor oil. ...and Lead Tetraethyl. > UA: > Long hydrocarbon chains are moored to polar functionality that binds [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does anyone know if there is a biodiesel engine lube? Is regular old > B100 with less thinning suitable as a crankcase lubricant? Stupid idea. A lube must survive, not merely work, and perform from winter storage temps in a storage sump to all Hell breaking loose at high engine temps under high shear and compression in a chemically aggressive environment. If you want the best synlube for your car, use Mobil 1 (though NOT in aircraft engines. Application matters). Citrate polyester is a good lube base. It will swell and crack your elastomeric seals and conduits unless well-diluted with hydrocarbon base lube. If you want an Enviro-whiner lube dripping hype, use sucrose polyester (Olestra). All natural! Any failure in use is a test of faith. SignatureUncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf > If you want an Enviro-whiner lube dripping hype, use sucrose polyester > (Olestra). All natural! Any failure in use is a test of faith. > > -- > Uncle Al Went through the Olestra plant about a year ago, Al. Very interesting. The time and expense they have spent on this product is amazing. > > If you want an Enviro-whiner lube dripping hype, use sucrose polyester > > (Olestra). All natural! Any failure in use is a test of faith. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Went through the Olestra plant about a year ago, Al. Very interesting. > The time and expense they have spent on this product is amazing. One can fry stuff in silicone oil to pretty much the same bottom line. Lipid as a class that is not destroyed by digestion is excreted with unacceptable results. Olestra is a positive-feedback disaster of poor management (is there any other kind?). They were in the game and were determined to maximize their unrecoverable losses by not admitting them when they were smallish. Engineers knew that the response surface could be optmized. Occidental Petroleum built a major garbage recycling plant in San Diego. That stuff was not hooking up in space during construction was the first hint. After ferrous metal, metal, and glass were separated the residual organics were anaerobically pyrolyzed into EcoFuel (garboil). It was rich with aldehyde functionality, stank horribly, was a potent allergic sensitizer, was immiscible with hydrocarbon fuel oils... and in the presence of 3-5% water it irreversibly set up to a solid (garbolite). It was management's call that the little wrinkles would be ironed out during plant operation. Engineers knew that the response surface could be optmized. Chemists know that a big pile of fresh manure does not guarantee the proximity of a pony. If you do not have stuff you will not have things. Sucralose is interesting in a similar manner. The entire armamentarium of in vitro and in vivo biological testings say the pure chemical is harmless in all possible ways. However, it is not ingested as the pure chemical. Sucralose is specifically targetted to baked goods and acid soft drinks wherein aspartame decomposes. A polychlorinated disaccharide under those circumstances is expected to be reactive, to give active alkylating agents as thermolysis and hydrolysis byproducts. Also, the product spec allows up to 150 ppm triphenylphosphine to tag along. Do ya wanna eat that, do ya? SignatureUncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf Sucralose is specifically targetted to > baked goods and acid soft drinks wherein aspartame decomposes. A > polychlorinated disaccharide under those circumstances is expected to > be reactive, to give active alkylating agents as thermolysis and > hydrolysis byproducts. Also, the product spec allows up to 150 ppm > triphenylphosphine to tag along. Do ya wanna eat that, do ya? I find it less than Splendid, Al. Perhaps I am narrow minded but chlorinated organics are not on my menu. Good to be back in contact with you. > Sucralose is specifically targetted to > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Good to be back in contact with you. What's amazing is the marketing that's done on sucralose. There's no mention of it's chlorinated composition anywhere. They don't even call it sucralose anymore, probably to divert attention from its chemistry - most food cos. use it's brand name Splenda. It's everywhere, specially on diabetic products. It's just sad that a lot of Americans are so ignorant and are falling for this huge health threat. > What's amazing is the marketing that's done on sucralose. There's no > mention of it's chlorinated composition anywhere. They don't even call [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lot of Americans are so ignorant and are falling for this huge health > threat. THEY market it as being totally safe. Not for me, buddy. Chlorinated organics of any type raise my suspicion, and Splenda isn't Splendid for me. I wont eat it. I, and my diabetic father-in-law, limit our sweeteners to fructose, and we tolerate it well. UA's opinion: If you want the best synlube for your car, use Mobil 1 (though NOT in aircraft engines. Application matters). =========================== Whats mobil1 made out of? Is the formula a secret? Is it teflon or something? Or is it a hydrocarbon just like regular lube oil? In which case, why do they call it synthetic? I guess as long as I get to ask a few questions, how much engine oil is used per year in the US? I'll guess 5 qts for every 5000 miles there about...I guess I need to know the number of miles now... 24 quadrillion BTUs is the transportation total used.... so if some algae farm breakthru gives us imported oil independence in a few years, how much crankcase oil will we need and from whence it cometh? > if some algae > farm breakthru gives us imported oil independence in a few years, how > much crankcase oil will we need and from whence it cometh? petroleum is merely geologically refined vegetative matter. If you don't want to wait a few hundred million years for the earth to do the refining, you can fast-forward the process by applying energy. > UA's opinion: > If you want the best synlube for your car, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > farm breakthru gives us imported oil independence in a few years, how > much crankcase oil will we need and from whence it cometh? Mobil-1 is about 80% synthetic hydrocarbon base stock and 20% polyester and additives. The stuff is amazing. After 120,000 miles my VW Rabbit had factory spec compression in all cylinders. Linda's Volvo is approaching 200,000 miles still with new car compression specs. Look inside the oil fill ports - bright metal everywhere. BIG ENVIRIO-WHINER NEWS!!! We have almost lost enough money through the Kyoto Protocol, $95 billion, to "guarantee" a decrease in global warming of ONE MILLIDGREE in 2050, http://motls.blogspot.com/ Right side, middle of column's text for the counters. SignatureUncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf >>UA's opinion: >> If you want the best synlube for your car, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Right side, middle of column's text for the counters. > Uncle Al, I'm curious - do you have the normal oil changes (at 3500 or so miles)? I am thinking of switching to synthetics on our car. Also, what is a synthetic hydrocarbon base stock? It's the first time I've heard of that term. I always though that synlubes were trimethylolpropane esters. > Uncle Al, > I'm curious - do you have the normal oil changes (at 3500 or so miles)? > I am thinking of switching to synthetics on our car. > Also, what is a synthetic hydrocarbon base stock? It's the first time > I've heard of that term. I always though that synlubes were > trimethylolpropane esters. A slurry of carbon grit and oil produced from incompletely burned ingnition by-products and small metal filings from metal decomposition abrasion and wear and tear probably does not have the same friction properties as those of pure oil. Used oil is often black. Some grades of biodiesel can also often have more contaminants, and do significant damage to diesel engines over time, if it is not refined and purified to the extent that many types of regular diesel often are. >Some grades of biodiesel can also often have more contaminants, and do significant damage to diesel engines over time, if it is not refined and purified to the extent that many types of regular diesel often are Bio-diesel covers many things. commercial distribution is likely to come from purpose-grown soybean oil. Homebrew biodeisel at the hands of Greepeacer aficanados, likely is restaurants' deeepfry leftovers, or even animal fats. <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> <blockquote cite="mid1128608536.718521.31720@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com" type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Some grades of biodiesel can also often have </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->more contaminants, and do significant damage to diesel engines over time, if it is not refined and purified to the extent that many types of regular diesel often are Bio-diesel covers many things. commercial distribution is likely to come from purpose-grown soybean oil. Homebrew biodeisel at the hands of Greepeacer aficanados, likely is restaurants' deeepfry leftovers, or even animal fats. </pre> </blockquote> Hey, hey, hey now... I'm no Greenpeacer, but I did a bit of research after I saw an episode of Trucks!, and as long as you can get the old fry-o-lator grease for free, you get your ROI after about 2 years by cookin' up your own batches of biodiesel.<br> <br> Current Diesel: $2.75 p/gal - Usage: 60 gals/month - Ongoing cost to make biodiesel $0.70 p/gal<br> <br> Downsides:<br> <ul> <li>Upfront cost -$3,000 for the cooker - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fuelmeister.com/">http://www.fuelmeister.com/</a></li> <li>Pickup used grease (weekly?)<br> </li> <li>Set aside area to do the cookin'</li> <li>Ongoing purchase of consumables (catalysts)<br> </li> <li>Manual labor (your sweat equity)</li> <li>Inconvenience</li> <li>2 year wait for ROI (more if you buy diesel at the pump too)</li> <li>You emit the eerie smell of a french fry as you go down the road :)</li> </ul> Upsides:<br> <ul> <li>If you can live with the downsides, $0.70 a gallon for biodiesel</li> <li>A bit of personal satisfaction that you're not paying pump prices for diesel</li> <li>You're still the same person, but the eco-warriors don't hate you as much :)</li> <li>The old fry-o-lator grease does something useful...BTW, what happens to that old grease anyway? Where does it go?<br> </li> <li>You piss off OPEC :) ... okay, that one's a really big stretch</li> </ul> IMHO, cookin' up your own fuel seems like a good idea, but you really gotta want to do it. It's like alot of other things - sometimes they make sense, sometimes they make a little bit of sense, and sometimes they make no sense at all, but you still do it, cause you want to.<br> </body> </html> >>>Some grades of biodiesel can also often have >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > make sense, sometimes they make a little bit of sense, and sometimes > they make no sense at all, but you still do it, cause you want to. $3000 for that set-up is price gouging IMHO: 2 plastic tanks 50-100 ea, a small SS pump - $200 and a small agitator $200-300 It should cost no more than 800 max to make it. > $3000 for that set-up is price gouging IMHO: 2 plastic tanks 50-100 ea, > a small SS pump - $200 and a small agitator $200-300 It should cost no > more than 800 max to make it. Don't use plastic tanks. The oil has to be heated, and with the methanol fumes, you are looking at a fire potential. Use a steel electric water heater: http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/ SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html >>>> Some grades of biodiesel can also often have >>>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > ea, a small SS pump - $200 and a small agitator $200-300 It should > cost no more than 800 max to make it. I agree. At 3k, you gotta be a pioneer. Kinda reminds me of the old Gold Rush '49ers. Most of the miners made very little, but the guys that sold 'em shovels, picks, and pans made a killin' :) Upsides: If you can live with the downsides, $0.70 a gallon for biodiesel ================================================== A little devils advocacy.... I hear you can get in trouble for putting heating oil in your diesel truck.... govt wants some piece of the action 'to pave the roads'. When they get wind of you 'stealing their tax money' arent the black SUVs going to pull into your drive way and have confiscate all your contraband? Or does that sort of thing only happen in totalitarian regimes? Holy crap... if they took some poor guys solar cells and batteries because they couldnt tax his EV, he might freeze the next winter.... >Upsides: >If you can live with the downsides, $0.70 a gallon for biodiesel [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The following is all hear-say * I heard that heating oil, fuel oil and diesel are all the same thing. I'm a bit skeptical. * Fuel oil is supposed to have red dye in it. That's supposed to tell the regulators if you're using diesel or fuel oil. If you ain't got the permit and you got the red dye, you're in a heap of trouble. * The permits are to allow agra (farm and ranch) vehicles to not have to pay the highway taxes. The same applies to construction vehicles. * Some trucking companies have the permits, pay less at the pump and pay their highway taxes differently. * I think my owners manual specifically reads that I'm not to use fuel oil in my PSD, only #2 diesel. * AFA I know, there are no regulations, laws, or taxes on home-cooked biodiesel.. There's a filling station down by me that sells fuel oil for $0.20 p/gal less than diesel. The pump looks like a regular diesel pump; it's by where all the big rigs fill up. I once pulled down there, because all of the 'regular' diesel bays where in use. The guy asked if i had a permit. I didn't, he told me to pull over to one of the 'regular' pumps and wait. Wish I had one of those permits... > * I heard that heating oil, fuel oil and diesel are all the same > thing. I'm a bit skeptical. Well, for sufficiently loose definitions of "the same thing..." Kerosene is pretty much the same thing as #1 Diesel and Jet-A. #2 Diesel is pretty close to fuel/heating oil. Bunker C fuel oil is pretty much the same thing as asphalt... gotta heat it to get it to flow like a liquid ;-) The differences in "Diesel" vs "fuel oil" are pretty small, but they can be important. AFAIK, "fuel oil" has no requirement to meet any particular cetane ratings, lubricity, or detergency requirements, but #1 and #2 Diesel do. >> * I heard that heating oil, fuel oil and diesel are all the same >> thing. I'm a bit skeptical. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > particular cetane ratings, lubricity, or detergency requirements, but > #1 and #2 Diesel do. Thanks for the update. My curiosity is piqued enough now to go Googling to see if there's a site (maybe fed regulatory one) that posts the differences. > My curiosity is piqued enough now to go Googling to see if > there's a site (maybe fed regulatory one) that posts the > differences. http://tinyurl.com/9g8r2 is a good start. John > Hey, hey, hey now... I'm no Greenpeacer, but I did a bit of research after >I saw an episode of Trucks!, and as long as you can get the old fry-o-lator >grease for free, you get your ROI after about 2 years by cookin' up your own >batches of biodiesel. But you forgot to mention... > Downsides: zero assurance as to the purity and consistency of the product! The oil companies don't deliver a cheap product, but they deliver a controlled-quality product. Home bio-diesel is like home cooking. SOME of it is good stuff. >> Hey, hey, hey now... I'm no Greenpeacer, but I did a bit of research after >>I saw an episode of Trucks!, and as long as you can get the old fry-o-lator >grease for free, you get your ROI after about 2 years by cookin' up your own >batches of biodiesel. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yep, you're kinda right, but having materials to perform titration tests help to assure a fairly high level of purity and consistency. But, then again, this gets back to the inconvenience/sweat equity/manual labor downside. It's certainly easier to just pull up to the pump :) Home cooking, oh yeah, I've managed to 'create' some truly inedible edibles :) I think In article <1128749620.279202.152330@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> , dances_with_barkadas@yahoo.com says... > > Hey, hey, hey now... I'm no Greenpeacer, but I did a bit of research after > >I saw an episode of Trucks!, and as long as you can get the old fry-o-lator >grease for free, you get your ROI after about 2 years by cookin' up your own >batches of biodiesel. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The oil companies don't deliver a cheap product, but they deliver a > controlled-quality product. Yeah, right up until that local, small-time, financially-stressed/greedy station-owner/franchisee gets an "interesting" idea... ...And decides to cook the books to cover up the addition of his/her home-brewed biodiel to the main tanks, while charging customers (e.g. you) as if it were pure, official, big-time oil-co product. Kinda like a dope dealing cutting that fine, pure Peruvian coke with powdered baby laxative, and that Mexican black-tar heroin with dogshit. > Home bio-diesel is like home cooking. SOME of it is good stuff. Like my home cooking with the organic vegetables that I grow. As opposed to the pure, official, e-coli- infected crapburgers available from Jack-In-The-Box. SignatureGet Credit Where Credit Is Due http://www.cardreport.com/ Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum >> Hey, hey, hey now... I'm no Greenpeacer, but I did a bit of research after >>I saw an episode of Trucks!, and as long as you can get the old fry-o-lator >grease for free, you get your ROI after about 2 years by cookin' up your own >batches of biodiesel. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > zero assurance as to the purity and consistency of the product! pretty good assurance if you follow the directions: http://www.localb100.com/book.html > The oil companies don't deliver a cheap product, but they deliver a > controlled-quality product. > > Home bio-diesel is like home cooking. SOME of it is good stuff. most of it is good stuff. the stuff that isn't is when folks try to develop their own recipes like mixing wvo with diesel in unheated tanks or some such. SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html > pretty good assurance if you follow the directions: if following directions was no problem, there wouldn't any people problems. And all problems are people problems. > most of it is good stuff. the stuff that isn't is when folks try to > develop their own recipes till just recently, the only folks who were fiddling with biodiesel were enthusiasts, afficianados. Folks who could mostly be trusted to follow directions. we're about to enter the era when every Joe Sixpack and his brother-in-law will be brewing the stuff in his backyard. Fifty years from now, most of the problems will have been solved. But that is then, this is now. The results will be similar to the problems which followed in the wake of giving automobiles to the unwashed masses. I am not advocating the regulation of homebrew biodiesel. I just think we should not go into denial about the downside risks of popularizing it. THere will be some ugly, tragic incidents that give the movement an occassional bad press. > I am not advocating the regulation of homebrew biodiesel. I just think > we should not go into denial about the downside risks of popularizing > it. THere will be some ugly, tragic incidents that give the movement > an occassional bad press. Like this one? http://www.green-trust.org/2005/06/fuel-explosion-is-attributed-to-repair.html SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html >> Mobil-1 is about 80% synthetic hydrocarbon base stock and 20% >> polyester and additives. The stuff is amazing. After 120,000 miles >> my VW Rabbit had factory spec compression in all cylinders. Linda's >> Volvo is approaching 200,000 miles still with new car compression >> specs. Look inside the oil fill ports - bright metal everywhere. Same can be said of my wife's 93 Chrysler 3.5L v6 engine, except that it still has facotry spec compression and bright metal everywhere at 231,000 miles. I generally run about 7000 to 9000 miles between oil changes on that car. Mobil-1 10w30 > >>UA's opinion: > >> If you want the best synlube for your car, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I've heard of that term. I always though that synlubes were > trimethylolpropane esters. Mobil makes no secret of its stuff except for the additives. The hydrocarbon base stock is a 100% saturated branched poly(alpha-olefin) plus other synthetic hydrocarbons selected to be chemically inert and thermally stable. This would shrink your seals and elastomers. About 20% polyester blend is added to adjust solvation of elastomers to keep seals tight and pliable. Look at its Web pages and patents. http://www.Mobil1.com/ (the letter "l" then the number "one") Standard Mobil-1 in standard use does 7500-mile changes (including a good oil filter) no problems at all. Its very low leakage past piston rings also spares your catalyic converter (in California - minimum mileage at maximum gasoline price. That's Enviro-whinerism). HOWEVER... The extreme detergency of all Mobil-1 oils argues against starting them in older engines. Varnish on cylinder walls is keeping your piston rings snugged. That will be dissolved away by Mobil-1. Start a new car and keep it forever. If you drive in nasty conditions - heavy hauling, dust, lots of low gear, sustained high ambient temps - You probably want 3000-mile servicing. In the old days you had an oil pressure gauge to tell you how things were doing at the oil filter. Now you have an idiot light to tell you your engine just became scrap metal. "Engine bearings have shredded." "Piston rings are fused." "Camshaft is fractured." "Please have car serviced to retain warranty." SignatureUncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf > Now you have an idiot light to tell you your engine just > became scrap metal. Maybe on that VW chick car *you* drive. My chariot has gages. >> Now you have an idiot light to tell you your engine just >> became scrap metal. > > Maybe on that VW chick car *you* drive. My chariot has gages. You must drive a piece of GM junk, if they're gages. My vehicles have *gauges*. > HOWEVER... The extreme detergency of all Mobil-1 oils argues against > starting them in older engines. Varnish on cylinder walls is keeping > your piston rings snugged. That will be dissolved away by Mobil-1. I disagree. I've switched several very high-mileage engines over to Mobil 1, with no ill effects at all. These were well-maintained engines, not sludge-monsters, but still were at or over 200,000 miles on good quality petroleum oil. One of them is my daily driver ('73 Plymouth, 318, 443,000 total miles) and another my "fun" car ('69 Coronet R/T, 440 Magnum). IF an engine has SO much sludge that the sludge is "keeping things tight," then the engine is already dead anyway and not safe to keep limping along. There are people who swear by synthetics like Mobil 1, and others like myself who do not choose to use them. In Europe, my new Passat came with synthetics. It seeped from day 1. Not seriously, but seeped nontheless. EU inspections do not take leakages lightly. Dino oil is cheap enough to change frequently, and that is what I do. My engines last a long long long time. It doesn't make a sh.t if I use Fram, or any other filters, with frequent oil changes, there is little to worry about. My Reatta now has 140,000 miles on it.. Like a Swiss watch. My wife's Buick as 80,000. No lubrication related problems. My ol' 1997 Dodge Custom Van has over 105,000 miles and will likely outlast everybody on this newsgroup. The oil has been changed every 3000 miles. Mobil 1 is no panacea. Neither is Amsoil. Nor dino grease. Decent engineering, coupled with proper maintenance, can mean a long and economical life for your engine. > There are people who swear by synthetics > like Mobil 1, and others like > myself who do not choose to use them. About 15 years ago I did some work in an oil research lab. The Tribologists said only ever use "fully" synthetic oils, as the lubrication is vastly superior in every way. I have ever since. My car from new has done 72,000 miles on synthetics from 500 miles, which came with semi-synthetic. It has not faltered or used one drop of oil. The engine still sounds and feels like new. The superior lubrication qualities of synthetics are pretty well known. There is not a case or either or. There is only one choice. > In Europe, my new Passat came with synthetics. It seeped from day 1. Not > seriously, > but seeped nontheless. EU inspections do not take leakages lightly. Are you serious? That has nothing to do withy the oil. > Dino oil is cheap enough to change frequently, And a poor lubricate that it is false economy to use the stuff. > My engines last > a long long long time. It doesn't make a sh.t if I use Fram, or any other [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Decent engineering, coupled with proper maintenance, can mean a long and > economical life for your engine. And using superior lubricants can mean a longer life, running and feeling like new. I respect your opinions. The EU inspections really don't give a sh.t whether the leakage or seepage is caused by the greater mobility of the lubricant past sealing surfaces OR a bad gasket. At some level, you have to fix it or park it. The full synthetic did not destroy my gaskets. It seeped. Constantly. From day 1. Your hypothesis that dino oils are poor lubricants is just not true. The new petroleum oil formulations are quite good, even when compared with synthetics. I don't like to run oils for long periods in engines. Even if I continued to use synthetics I would change at about 3000 miles. Synthetics dont save me money, nor have I had any short runs, failures, undue wear when using petroleum formulations. I would welcome some really good data, but we have never had much of it around here. We have people who assert that synthetics are vastly superior, but they never have adequate data to prove their points. But I respect your opinion, and being of such opinion, synthetics are your best choice. They are not mine. > I respect your opinions. It is NOT my opinion, as I am stating fact. > Your hypothesis that dino oils are > poor lubricants is just not true. I'm stating a fact that fully synthetic are superior lubricants - which is 100% correct. > The new petroleum oil formulations are quite > good, even when compared with synthetics. Fully synthetics are sill way superior. > I don't like to run oils for long periods in engines. > Even if I continued to use synthetics I would > change at about 3000 miles. Changing synthetic at 3000 miles is ludicrous. They can go 20,000 mile and more as the lubrication qualities are not affected. > Synthetics dont save me > money, nor have I had any short runs, > failures, undue wear when using petroleum > formulations. You are lucky then. The simple fact is that fully synthetics are much superior. It is not a case of they are 50-50, they are not. > I would welcome some really good data, > but we have never had much of it > around here. We have people who assert > that synthetics are vastly superior, but they > never have adequate data to prove their points. Google the web and you will find anough data. > But I respect your opinion, and being of > such opinion, synthetics are your > best choice. They are not mine. I don't know what you base your opinion on. I based my choice out of hard observed facts from a research lab, which I was working in for a few months. One guy there had a SAAB, and each months would test the oil. Only when the oil had deteriorated did he change the oil - he never went on mileage or time. He would change the filter every 6000 mile and top up the remainder lost by the filter change. The oil. Mobil 1, had been in for 60,000 miles. Again, 60,000 miles. I stated that synthetic was only for high performance cars, they said if anything the opposite applies. Better cars have superior metals, finishes and tolerances. If anything fully synthetic would benefit cheaper cars that just run to the supermarkets a lot. Also they showed me two stripped engines after 100,000 miles. One was on dino and one fully synthetic. The synthetic oil engine was super clean inside, the other had dark burn marks about the place. Don't buy mineral oils and change every 3000 miles. Buy good quality "fully" synthetics and change at makers recommendations, and the car will last far longer. Replacing an inferior lubricant more often does not make the lubricant better. From the outset the lubrication qualities are inferior, so you can't make the qualities better by replacing the oil every month or two. I also put synthetic gear oil in my manual transaxle too. Makes all the difference. Well, goodie for you. You are still expressing your beliefs and opinions. Just like I am. Do what you want to do. > Well, goodie for you. > You are still expressing your beliefs and opinions. Just like I am. > Do what you want to do. I am NOT expressing and beliefs whatsoever. I am going on the finding of experts at first hand experience - facts. It is clear you didn't know about the superior lubricating qualities of fully synthetics, thinking synthetic and mineral oil about equal. Now you know. Please continue to use inferior lubrication if it gives you a warm feeling. I don't as I "know" better. > I am NOT expressing and beliefs whatsoever. I am going on the finding of > experts at first hand experience - facts. It is clear you didn't know about > the superior lubricating qualities of fully synthetics, thinking synthetic > and mineral oil about equal. Now you know. Please continue to use inferior > lubrication if it gives you a warm feeling. I don't as I "know" better. Well, just go lubricate yourself, News. I hope you change your drawers more often than you change your oil. I would hope never to buy a used car which had been previously owned by someone who would even consider driving 20,000 miles without a change...of oil, or drawers. > > I am NOT expressing and beliefs whatsoever. I am going on the finding of > > experts at first hand experience - facts. It is clear you didn't know [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Well, just go lubricate yourself, News. I lubricate the car. <snip garbage> > <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote in message >>Well, just go lubricate yourself, News. > > I lubricate the car. > > <snip garbage> Maybe you should stop lubricating things at random and do a bit more research. The fact is that while synthetics are indeed excellent lubricants (and I use them exclusively myself), a given brand or forumlation of synthetic oil is not guaranteed to be better than "conventional" oils just because its synthetic. There are a number of conventional oils that, when used in real engines in the real world and subjected to used oil analysis, show LOWER wear rates than some synthetics. > > <HLS@nospam.nix> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > forumlation of synthetic oil is not guaranteed to be better than > "conventional" oils just because its synthetic. In 99% of case it is better though. > There are a number of > conventional oils that, when used in real engines in the real world and > subjected to used oil analysis, show LOWER wear rates than some synthetics. They are the high end minerals compared to the low end synthetics. One thing synthetic has over mineral oil is that is lasts longer. It is far more difficult to break down. The shear factor and viscosity are far superior. > > Maybe you should stop lubricating things at random and do a bit more > > research. The fact is that while synthetics are indeed excellent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In 99% of case it is better though. ********Only 99%?? Impressive statistics. > They are the high end minerals compared to the low end synthetics. One > thing synthetic has over mineral oil is that is lasts longer. It is far > more difficult to break down. The shear factor and viscosity are far > superior. *********You should be a politician, News. Just to keep repeating something doesn't make it true. Feks 'I did NOT - have sex- with that woman--Miss Lewinski' > > > Maybe you should stop lubricating things at random and do a bit more > > > research. The fact is that while synthetics are indeed excellent [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > doesn't make it true. Feks 'I did NOT - have sex- with that woman--Miss > Lewinski' I go on real factual experience from a lab and using the stuff for the past 15 or 16 years, which confirmed what they said. I have read nothing here that will make me believe otherwise. >>>>Maybe you should stop lubricating things at random and do a bit more >>>>research. The fact is that while synthetics are indeed excellent [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 15 or 16 years, which confirmed what they said. I have read nothing here > that will make me believe otherwise. No one's going to post anything here to make you believe otherwise, either. Its obvious that you need to go look elsewhere to find the information that people here are referring to, and its equally obvious that you're not going to choose to do so. Just for starters, should you want to make a liar of me and actually go check something, go dig through the UOA results posted at bobistheoilguy.com. > >>>>Maybe you should stop lubricating things at random and do a bit more > >>>>research. The fact is that while synthetics are indeed excellent [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > No one's going to post anything > here to make you believe otherwise, It appears that way. If you can convince me that mineral oils are superior please do. I'm ready. I'm objective, but it had better be a good case backup by figures. > > No one's going to post anything > > here to make you believe otherwise, > > It appears that way. If you can convince me that mineral oils are superior > please do. I'm ready. I'm objective, but it had better be a good case > backup by figures. News, you can believe anything you want. It is a free society. I certainly don't want to make you change your belief system. Neither are you likely to change mine, unless you come up with some hard data (which you haven't done as yet.) I am not totally against synthetics, but as I prefer to change my oil every three months or 3000 miles anyway, I don't choose to use them. It could change... I am not totally inflexible, but I get excellent engine life, keep my engines clean, and have been doing this for a good bit more than 16-17 years. > > > No one's going to post anything > > > here to make you believe otherwise, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > News, you can believe anything > you want. It is a free society. I'm not into fairy tales, only hard proven facts. > Neither are you likely to change mine, > unless you come up with some hard > data (which you haven't done as yet.) I'm not trying to convince to one way or the other. I'm telling the reasons why I settle on fully synthetics - by being exposed to it in a lab, and using it. > I am not totally against synthetics, but > as I prefer to change my oil every > three months or 3000 miles anyway, If it gives you a warm feeling then fine. I prefer high quality oils that lubricate better at any time and last the makers full change intervals. > I don't choose to use them. It could change... > I am not totally inflexible, but I get excellent engine life, keep my > engines clean, > and have been doing this for a good bit more than 16-17 years. It is clear you just don't know. But keep doing what you are doing if that is your thing - laying on your back undoing sump plugs for the sake of it. > Just for starters, should you > want to make a liar of me and actually go check something, go dig > through the UOA results posted at bobistheoilguy.com. I have seen that site before, I looked again and nothing there and proven to me that any mineral oil is superior to a good fully synthetic. I'm still open to be swayed. >> HOWEVER... The extreme detergency of all Mobil-1 oils argues against >> starting them in older engines. Varnish on cylinder walls is keeping >> your piston rings snugged. That will be dissolved away by Mobil-1. > > I disagree. Me three, but Uncle Al knows everything, so he must be right. > exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? biodiesel is a surfactant, one end of the molecule is non-polar, hydrocarbon, the other end is more polar, being a methylated carboxylic acid. j. >> exactly why does biodiesel have a high value of lubricity? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > j. Are you saying that biodiesel is made up of a single molecule type, and not a mixture of many HC molecules like petroleum? > Are you saying that biodiesel is made up of a single molecule type, and > not a mixture of many HC molecules like petroleum? crude has lots of components. Refined product is... refined. Gasoline has but 2 or three main components. How homogenous brewed biodiesel is, depends on how much work was done to clean it up and, uh... refine it. The homebrew stuff is fairly sloppy. Lot of guys use waste cooking oil as feedstock, then clean the biodiesel up with waterwashing just enough to keep an engine running. tends to slowly (or not so slowly!) clog up fuel filters, but they view that as an acceptable tradeoff. > How homogenous brewed biodiesel is, depends on how much work was done > to clean it up and, uh... refine it. The homebrew stuff is fairly > sloppy. Lot of guys use waste cooking oil as feedstock, then clean the > biodiesel up with waterwashing just enough to keep an engine running. > tends to slowly (or not so slowly!) clog up fuel filters, but they view > that as an acceptable tradeoff. This is very misleading. Much of the homebrew stuff is every bit as good as astm standard. Filters do not clog any faster than dino diesel. There is a higher cloudpoint than dino, but that's a characteristic of the original oil source. http://www.biodieselcommunity.org promotes good, clean biodiesel. SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html > This is very misleading. Much of the homebrew stuff is every bit as good > as astm standard. I'd take that statement with a few hundred pounds of salt until I saw hard test results. >> This is very misleading. Much of the homebrew stuff is every bit as >> good as astm standard. > > I'd take that statement with a few hundred pounds of salt until I saw > hard test results. Hang out in the biodiesel groups and look at the test results. We work hard at making sure we teach folks how to make quality biodiesel. SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html > Hang out in the biodiesel groups and look at the test results. We work > hard at making sure we teach folks how to make quality biodiesel. What kind of wine goes with a nice biodiesel scampi with risotto? SignatureIf John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination, my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin. > What kind of wine goes with a nice biodiesel scampi with > risotto? Injection port. John Wow i cant help myself gotta put my 2 c in i have several friends and they are all using one form or anouther of bio diesel The one doing it the longest has been running his mining equip and trucks and moma's mercedes for over twenty years these diesel engines are in a lot better shape than if they had run straight diesel and the maint has been accually less then if using straight diesel. the guy that is doing this is a high school drop out "but he isnt dumb" :) anouther friend has been useing bio diesel for about five years .he isnt as carefull as friend no 1 huess what/ he has more problems it is amazing what a simple filter can do svhooling really dont count if you are willing to look for answers.. hope ya dont flame me too much ta >>> This is very misleading. Much of the homebrew stuff is every bit as good >>> as astm standard. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Hang out in the biodiesel groups and look at the test results. We work > hard at making sure we teach folks how to make quality biodiesel. > a higher cloudpoint than dino, but that's a characteristic of the > original oil source you seem to be a very nice and well-intentioned gentleman, but you've apparently never studied petroleum refining very closely. >> a higher cloudpoint than dino, but that's a characteristic of the >>original oil source > > you seem to be a very nice and well-intentioned gentleman, but > you've apparently never studied petroleum refining very closely. I'm not talking about petroleum refining, I'm talking about biodiesel made from vegetable oil. I'm not only well intentioned, but I'm very knowledgeable about biofuels. various vegetable oils have different cloudpoints, all higher than petroleum diesel. Therefore they gel sooner, requiring a thinner like kerosene when the temperature drops. SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html > various vegetable oils have different > cloudpoints, all higher than petroleum diesel. if you're so knowledgeable, why are you comparing petrodiesel ( an extensively refined product) to crude vegetable oil (not refined). Apples to Oranges. > they gel sooner Many crude petro's gels sooner (= higher temperature) than many crude veg oils. > I'm not only well intentioned, but I'm very > knowledgeable about biofuels would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by stuff they brewed in your backyard after one of your seminars? >>various vegetable oils have different >>cloudpoints, all higher than petroleum diesel. > if you're so knowledgeable, why are you comparing petrodiesel ( an > extensively refined product) to crude vegetable oil (not refined). > Apples to Oranges. I'm not comparing to crude vegetable oil. You are confused. I'm comparing diesel fuel available at the tanks, to biodiesel at the tanks. Diesel fuel has better cold weather performance. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? >>they gel sooner yes, biodiesel gels at warmer temps than diesel > Many crude petro's gels sooner (= higher temperature) than many > crude veg oils. who is talking about crude? >>I'm not only well intentioned, but I'm very >>knowledgeable about biofuels > > would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at > their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by > stuff they brewed in your backyard after one of your seminars? absolutely. SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html > would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at > their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by > stuff they brewed in your backyard after one of your seminars? Last time I checked there weren't and diesel powered aircraft in Private Aviation, and getting VeggieOil to run out of a wing tank at -30F would seem problematic, at best.......... Me >> would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at >> their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Private Aviation, and getting VeggieOil to run out of a wing >tank at -30F would seem problematic, at best.......... Actually, Zoche (www.zoche.de) makes a number of type-certified diesel engines for GA aircraft. They run nicely off of Jet-A as I recall. Similar engines have also been used in a number of airships, although of course the consequences of engine loss in a lighter-than-air craft aren't quite as severe or immediate. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >> would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at > >> their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > aren't quite as severe or immediate. > --scott There is a GIANT difference between Biodiesel and Jet50-A, when it comes to fuel flow at -30F...... Me >Last time I checked there weren't and diesel powered aircraft in >Private Aviation, and getting VeggieOil to run out of a wing >tank at -30F would seem problematic, at best.......... I believe there's at least one in Europe, not yet approved in the US. Nick >> would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at >>their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Me We weren't discussing veggieoil, we were discussing biodiesel. Any jet engine will run fine on biodiesel. I would have no problem putting a small diesel in a cesna and running it on our biodiesel. tank heaters or kerosene blends resolve the gelling issue. SignatureSteve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html > >> would you be willing to prove that your students are competant at > >>their hobby.... by going aloft in an airplane that is solely fueled by [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > small diesel in a cesna and running it on our biodiesel. tank heaters or |
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