Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2005
Low tech OHV engines versus DOHC/VVT/FSI/Turbo/4-valve...
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Masospaghetti - 02 Oct 2005 17:58 GMT This is a subject I have yet to understand. It seems all reviewers dog overhead valve engine designs because they are "low tech and crude", or whatever they say. But are they really worse? Compare, for instance, the following engines:
3.5L OHV (GM 3500, Malibu) - 23/32 mpg, 200 hp / 220 lb-ft 2.0L DOHC 4-valve VVT FSI Turbocharged (VW, Jetta) - 22/31 mpg, 200 hp / 207 lb-ft
or...
5.3L OHV DOD (GM 5300 LS4, Impala) - 18/28 mpg, 303 hp / 323 lb-ft 3.6L DOHC 4-valve VVT (VW, Passat) - 19/28 mpg, 280 hp / 265 lb-ft
or even...
3.9L OHV (GM 3900, Impala) - 19/27 mpg, 240 hp / 240 lb-ft 3.0L DOHC 4-valve VVT (Toyota, Camry) - 21/29 mpg, 210 hp / 220 lb-ft
And this doesn't take into account that the GM vehicles use 4-speed automatics and the VW's use 6-speeds (the Jetta being a manual) and the Toyota uses 5.
Are there any real advantages to these "high tech" engines?
HLS@nospam.nix - 02 Oct 2005 19:48 GMT IMHO, OHC engines can offer some advantages, like lower mass, no pushrods to flex or bend, maybe even less valve bounce, possibility for more extreme cam profiles, etc.
But unless the engine is made to take advantage of those possibilities, there may be no advantage at all.
Don Stauffer - 03 Oct 2005 15:06 GMT > This is a subject I have yet to understand. It seems all reviewers dog > overhead valve engine designs because they are "low tech and crude", or > whatever they say. But are they really worse? Compare, for instance, the > following engines: No. Look at the speeds small block Chevy derived engines turn in race cars- over ten grand.
Look at the hp/ci from Dragster engines with hemis in them- one of the most convoluted pushrod and rocker arm systems ever.
However, one has to use more expensive materials, such as titanium to make the pushrod engines sit up and run fast. Or, use such high spring pressures the valves and followers don't last very long. Still, a well designed and built pushrod engine will work fine unless you are building it up for Formula 1.
Also, DOHC racing engines frequently have hemispherical combustion chambers, which raise octane requirements (not much turbulance [squish] in cc). Okay in racing engines, but not as desireable in road cars these days.
Masospaghetti - 03 Oct 2005 21:40 GMT >> This is a subject I have yet to understand. It seems all reviewers dog >> overhead valve engine designs because they are "low tech and crude", [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > designed and built pushrod engine will work fine unless you are building > it up for Formula 1. Right, however, isn't the pushrod design by default cheaper and easier to manufacture, especially in V-configurations, because it only needs one cam instead of 4?
> Also, DOHC racing engines frequently have hemispherical combustion > chambers, which raise octane requirements (not much turbulance [squish] > in cc). Okay in racing engines, but not as desireable in road cars > these days. HLS@nospam.nix - 04 Oct 2005 12:36 GMT > Right, however, isn't the pushrod design by default cheaper and easier > to manufacture, especially in V-configurations, because it only needs > one cam instead of 4? OHC engines go back a long way. I believe Crosley had them 50-60 years ago in little 4 cylinder engines. Mercedes used them in some of their Grand Prix cars of the war years and slightly thereafter. These cars pumped out amazing horsepower for their time, and the Germans bragged for decades about their technology, desmodromic valve systems, etc. Ford made gigantic V8 OHC engines for tanks, having pistons damn near the size of gallon jugs.
SOHC and DOHC designs can both be used in V configurations. Are they more expensive? Maybe. There is some tradeoff between an extra cam or three against a set of several pushrods and lifters, but OHC is probably somewhat more expensive.
Are they less troublesome? Arguably. When you decrease the number of parts, you have the opportunity to reduce the time between failure. ( Notice I said opportunity. Shitteaux parts and designs overwhelm opportunity all the time)
As Don said, unless you are trying to extract the maximum out of an engine configuration, OHC's are probably more important as marketing buzzwords than anything else.
Don Stauffer - 04 Oct 2005 14:42 GMT > OHC engines go back a long way. I believe Crosley had them 50-60 years > ago in little 4 cylinder engines. Mercedes used them in some of their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > gigantic V8 OHC engines for tanks, having pistons damn near the size > of gallon jugs. They go back before WW1. Mercedes cars of about 1908-1910 had it. The Peugot of 1914 had DOHC with hemi chamber, and set the configuration for racing engines for virtually all time. Millers of twenties had it of course.
C. E. White - 04 Oct 2005 15:53 GMT > Right, however, isn't the pushrod design by default cheaper and easier > to manufacture, especially in V-configurations, because it only needs > one cam instead of 4? Not necessarily. You only need two cams for an OHC Vee engine, not four. You can replace hydraulic tappets, push rods, and rocker arms with roller followers (with hydraulic mounts). The block casting is less complex and potentially lighter and stronger with simplified oiling passages. The cams can be simpler. In either case the number of lobes on the cam is the same (for a 2 valve per cylinder engine, the cam in block engine has 16 cam surface to be ground, the SOHC engine has 8 cam surfaces per cam), so machining costs are similar (or less in the case of press on cams like Ford uses on the modular engines). With push rod engines, you have a tolerance buildup related to the deck height of the block, the head thickness, the rocker arms mounts , actual rocker arms, the valves, head gasket thickness, etc that requires adjustability or alternate length push rods to absorb the tolerances. With an OHC engine, the hydraulic adjusted followers can compensate for the reduced tolerance buildup (less assembly labor = savings). The OHC cams are in a more favorable environment and more lightly loaded, so they potentially can be less robust. The OHC cams are generally easier to install in a manufacturing environment (less labor). The head castings are simpler since they do not need to provide push rod passages (but they do need to include additional oiling passages for the cam and followers). With the OHC engine, you don't have to seal the valley between the banks, so the intake manifold can be simpler, or you don't have to have a separate part to seal the valley.
However, OHC engines are also generally larger on the outside which translates into a need for more space in the engine compartment. OHC engines (particularly Vee engines) require significantly more complicated drive mechanisms (longer chains with automatic tensioners instead of a short simple roller chain without a tensioner). For an equivalent displacement, I suspect that given similar materials, the push road engine would be lighter (and smaller in all dimensions).
It would be interesting to get a cost breakdown from GM for the SB Chevy V-8 engine and compare it to the cost breakdown for the Ford modular V-8 engine. I suspect that the Ford engine has an advantage in the emissions area, but costs more and develops less power than the Chevy SB for similar sizes. I am guessing with equivalent maintenance the Ford engine will last longer, but the difference is likely to be trivial. Either engine will outlast the useful life of the rest of the vehicle if properly maintained.
I suppose I buy into the idea that a well designed OHC engine can provide more power for a given displacement with better fuel economy and better emissions than a push rod engine. However, I think it is hard to argue that push rod engines can't be very good power plants. It is my opinion that when you combine cost, external size, weight, ease of service, power, reliability, etc., there is no current performance engine better than a small block Chevy. Some of the more exotic engines might provide more power for a given displacement, but they are also likely to be far more expensive and less reliable.
Ed
Don Stauffer - 05 Oct 2005 17:03 GMT >>Right, however, isn't the pushrod design by default cheaper and easier >>to manufacture, especially in V-configurations, because it only needs [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Ed The big complexity with any OHC design is driving the cam. In a pushrod engine the normal setup is a single set of two gears of 2:1 ratio or a short chain. In racing engines the spur gear train is common, but noisy and still a bit expensive. The chain long enough for a chain drive OHC to be a bit of a problem- stretch, breakage, etc. The toothed timing belt is what made OHC a consumer item. With these belts it is not nearly the problem that it used to be.
Steve - 05 Oct 2005 17:24 GMT > The big complexity with any OHC design is driving the cam. In a pushrod > engine the normal setup is a single set of two gears of 2:1 ratio or a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > belt is what made OHC a consumer item. With these belts it is not > nearly the problem that it used to be. Chains are still superior to belts. The Northstar uses a chain to drive its cams. The Ford Modular uses chains to drive its cams. The Chrysler 4.7 uses chains to drive its cams. Fewer and fewer high-end engines are relying on stretchy failure-prone rubber bands to drive the cams. Yes, some engine designs (notably the Chrysler 3.5 and even the old Mitsub*shi 3.0) almost always give very long belt life through careful design and protection of the belt- but that kind of protection often makes it almost as hard to change the belt as it would be to replace a chain. The 3.5 gets away with it because its mostly used in logitudinal engine layouts where the belt covers come off easily. I'm not sure I'd want to do a timing belt on it in a Pacifica where its turned sideways, though!
Steve - 03 Oct 2005 16:02 GMT > Are there any real advantages to these "high tech" engines? Only to the egos of people who get all their automotive knowledge from car magazines and Condumber Retorts and know nothing of engineering.
larry moe 'n curly - 04 Oct 2005 09:58 GMT > > Are there any real advantages to these "high tech" engines? > > Only to the egos of people who get all their automotive knowledge from > car magazines and Condumber Retorts and know nothing of engineering. I've never read anything like that in Consumer Reports. All they comment on is the power, noise, and fuel economy. OTOH car fashion magazines written by pot-bellied guys who never get their hands greasy always ooooh and aaaah over stuff like that.
Why would anybody consider an OHC engine to be more high tech than a pushrod engine, especially when it's simpler to have a cam press directly against the lifters rather than through pushrods and rocker arms?
Steve - 04 Oct 2005 22:41 GMT >>>Are there any real advantages to these "high tech" engines? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've never read anything like that in Consumer Reports. All they > comment on is the power, noise, and fuel economy. Oh please! ANY time they review a car with a pushrod engine, they have to call it "antiquated" even if it has more power and gets better mileage than a comparable DOHC VTEC monkey-motion-machine.
> Why would anybody consider an OHC engine to be more high tech than a > pushrod engine, especially when it's simpler to have a cam press > directly against the lifters rather than through pushrods and rocker > arms? Because "crappy American cars" traditionally have had pushrod engines, and "cool European cars" have OHC engines. :-/
Of course those same people forget that the 1930s Duesenberg SJ series was:
- a 32-valve DOHC 8 cylinder - Supercharged - With aluminum connecting rods - American
:-)
larry moe 'n curly - 05 Oct 2005 07:59 GMT >Only to the egos of people who get all their automotive knowledge from >car magazines and Condumber Retorts and know nothing of engineering.
> > I've never read anything like that in Consumer Reports. All they > > comment on is the power, noise, and fuel economy. > > Oh please! ANY time they review a car with a pushrod engine, they have > to call it "antiquated" even if it has more power and gets better > mileage than a comparable DOHC VTEC monkey-motion-machine. Who told you that? I know that you didn't read it in the magazine: (I don't know which of the following are pushrod or OHC)
GM 5.3L (Chevy Tahoe): "pulls strongly,...quicketest in the group."
Ford 5.4L (Expedition): "delivers adequate acceleration"
GM 3.8L (Buick Park Ave.): "supercharged V6 provides strong acceleration,"
Ford 4.6L (Lincoln Town Car): "provides plenty of power,"
Ford 4.6L (Mercury Grand Marquis): "about the same acceleration as the Park Avenue, but it sounds harsher and"
GM 2.2L (Chevy Cavalier): "sounds harsh but pvoided quick acceleration"
GM 3.4L (Pontiac Aztek): "provides just adequate acceleration"
Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "delivered adequate performance but is neither as refined nor as economical as the class leaders."
GM 3.5L (Chevy Malibu): "combines brisk acceleration with gas mileage of 26 mpg overall, whic is better than most of the four-cylinder sedans in this catagory."
Ford 3.0L (Taurus): "delivers good performance and returned a respectable 22 mpg"
GM 3.8L (Chevy Impala): "good low-speed rsponse but sounds coarse when revved."
GM 3.8L (Pontiac Grand Prix): "provides good low-speed response"
Chrysler 5.7L (Dodge Durango): "Acceleration is quick...but this engine returned a paltry 12 MPG overall, the worst"
Ford 4.2L (Freestar): "provides good performance but it sounds and feels harsh."
Ford 5.4L (F-150): "delivered very good acceleration,"
GM 5.3L (CHevy Silverado): "very good acceleration"
GM 5.7L (Pontiac GTO): "powerful,"
Ford 3.0L (Escape): "adequate acceleration"
GM 3.5L (Saturn Vue): "the quickest and most fuel efficient of the V6s here,"
GM 3.4L (Chevy Equinox): "delivers good performance, but feels a bit rough."
Chrysler 3.5L (Dodge Magnum): "responside performance,"
Ford 3.0L (Five Hundred): "just adequate performance."
Chrysler 5.7L (Chrysler 300): "delivers effortless performance,"
Chrysler 3.5L (Chrysler 300): "adequate performance"
GM 3.5L (Pontiac G6): "performed well"
GM 3.5L (CHevy Malibu Maxx): "very good performance"
Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "adequate performance but is much less refined than those in the Odyssey and Sienna"
GM 3.5L (Saturn Relay): "not nearly as refined or responsive as the engines in the Sienna and Odyssey"
GM 3.8L (Buick LaCrosse): "coarse and fuel economy unimpressive."
GM 2.2L (Chevy Cobalt): "While loud,...made the Cobalt quicker than the othes in this group"
Chrysler 4.7L (Dodge Dakota): "adequate performance, but it's thirsty."
Chrysler 4.7L (Jeep Grand Cherokee): "thirsty and fails to deliver the performance of some V6s in the class."
Steve - 05 Oct 2005 17:19 GMT >>Only to the egos of people who get all their automotive knowledge from >>car magazines and Condumber Retorts and know nothing of engineering. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > GM 5.3L (Chevy Tahoe): "pulls strongly,...quicketest in the group." Truck, so there's no real OHC competition other than Ford. (Toyota may pretend the Tundra is a truck, but it isn't real competition)
> Ford 5.4L (Expedition): "delivers adequate acceleration" OHC
> GM 3.8L (Buick Park Ave.): "supercharged V6 provides strong > acceleration," Supercharged- "ooooh! tech!"
> Ford 4.6L (Lincoln Town Car): "provides plenty of power," OHC
> GM 2.2L (Chevy Cavalier): "sounds harsh but pvoided quick > acceleration" "Sounds harsh" is typical CR-blather for "unrefined" or "antiquated."
> GM 3.4L (Pontiac Aztek): "provides just adequate acceleration" Proves MY point.
> Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "delivered adequate performance > but is neither as refined nor as economical as the class leaders." Proves MY point.
> Ford 3.0L (Taurus): "delivers good performance and returned a > respectable 22 mpg" "respectable." Whoo hoo, high praise there.
> GM 3.8L (Chevy Impala): "good low-speed rsponse but sounds coarse when > revved." "Sounds coarse" = "antiquated" = "tractor like" and all the other crap they apply to pushrod engines.
> Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "adequate performance but is much > less refined than those in the Odyssey and Sienna" Prove my point.
> GM 3.5L (Saturn Relay): "not nearly as refined or responsive as the > engines in the Sienna and Odyssey" Proves my point.
> GM 3.8L (Buick LaCrosse): "coarse and fuel economy unimpressive." Proves my point.
> GM 2.2L (Chevy Cobalt): "While loud,...made the Cobalt quicker than > the othes in this group" > > Chrysler 4.7L (Dodge Dakota): "adequate performance, but it's > thirsty." OHC and false.
> Chrysler 4.7L (Jeep Grand Cherokee): "thirsty and fails to deliver the > performance of some V6s in the class." OHC and two false statements.
larry moe 'n curly - 05 Oct 2005 23:33 GMT >Only to the egos of people who get all their automotive knowledge from >car magazines and Condumber Retorts and know nothing of engineering.
>>I've never read anything like that in Consumer Reports. All they >>comment on is the power, noise, and fuel economy.
>Oh please! ANY time they review a car with a pushrod engine, they have >to call it "antiquated" even if it has more power and gets better >mileage than a comparable DOHC VTEC monkey-motion-machine.
> > Who told you that? I know that you didn't read it in the magazine: (I > > don't know which of the following are pushrod or OHC) [In the quotes below I removed the listings for the OHC engines]
> > GM 5.3L (Chevy Tahoe): "pulls strongly,...quicketest in the group." > Truck, so there's no real OHC competition other than Ford. (Toyota may > pretend the Tundra is a truck, but it isn't real competition)
> > GM 3.8L (Buick Park Ave.): "supercharged V6 provides strong > > acceleration," > Supercharged- "ooooh! tech!"
> > GM 2.2L (Chevy Cavalier): "sounds harsh but pvoided quick > > acceleration" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > GM 3.4L (Pontiac Aztek): "provides just adequate acceleration" > Proves MY point.
> > Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "delivered adequate performance > > but is neither as refined nor as economical as the class leaders." [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > GM 2.2L (Chevy Cobalt): "While loud,...made the Cobalt quicker than > > the othes in this group" How does that prove your point? You said that CR _always_ calls pushrod engines antiquated, but in several cases they praised them or didn't criticize them. And how does "coarse" = "antiquated" when it applies to brand new engines, like the 1.8L Saturn and Olds Quad 4 (at the publication dates of the articles)?
Steve - 06 Oct 2005 15:07 GMT >>>Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "adequate performance but is much >>>less refined than those in the Odyssey and Sienna" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >>Proves my point. (many other examples deleted)
> How does that prove your point? You said that CR _always_ calls > pushrod engines antiquated, but in several cases they praised them or > didn't criticize them. And how does "coarse" = "antiquated" when it > applies to brand new engines, like the 1.8L Saturn and Olds Quad 4 (at > the publication dates of the articles)? Don't be so pedantic. Of course there are comparatively rare occasions when they say something lukewarm about a pushrod engine, but the VAST majority of the time they go out of their way to say something (idiotically) critical about them.
Norm De Plume - 07 Oct 2005 18:53 GMT >>Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "adequate performance but is much >>less refined than those in the Odyssey and Sienna"
>Prove my point.
>>GM 3.5L (Saturn Relay): "not nearly as refined or responsive as the >>engines in the Sienna and Odyssey"
>Proves my point.
>>GM 3.8L (Buick LaCrosse): "coarse and fuel economy unimpressive."
>Proves my point. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > majority of the time they go out of their way to say something > (idiotically) critical about them. You first said they _always_ criticized pushrod engines, but now you're saying they rarely don't. The reality isn't nearly so extreme. So either quit changing your story or admit that you don't know what the magazine says.
Masospaghetti - 09 Oct 2005 01:58 GMT >>>Chrysler 3.8L (Dodge Grand Caravan): "adequate performance but is much >>>less refined than those in the Odyssey and Sienna" [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > either quit changing your story or admit that you don't know what the > magazine says. CR definitely has a bias towards high-tech engines, whether or not they "always" critize pushrods, they make it a point that high-tech is better even if the final result is the same.
Steve - 10 Oct 2005 17:12 GMT >>Don't be so pedantic. Of course there are comparatively rare occasions >>when they say something lukewarm about a pushrod engine, but the VAST [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > either quit changing your story or admit that you don't know what the > magazine says. If you can't read an implied 'virtually' in before the word 'always,' how can you function in society?
The fact stands: Condemner Retards finds a way to slip in an implied criticism of simple OHV/pushrod engines 99.99999999% of the time they review one (and if you think that percentage is accurate past the first decimal place and not a bit of hyperbole to make a point, then I'd question whether or not you're functionally literate).
larry moe 'n curly - 04 Oct 2005 09:59 GMT > > Are there any real advantages to these "high tech" engines? > > Only to the egos of people who get all their automotive knowledge from > car magazines and Condumber Retorts and know nothing of engineering. I've never read anything like that in Consumer Reports. All they comment on are power, noise, and fuel economy. OTOH car fashion magazines written by pot-bellied guys who never get their hands greasy always ooooh and aaaah over stuff like that.
Why would anybody consider an OHC engine to be more high tech than a pushrod engine, especially when it's simpler to have a cam press directly against the lifters rather than through pushrods and rocker arms?
Ted Mittelstaedt - 04 Oct 2005 13:10 GMT > This is a subject I have yet to understand. It seems all reviewers dog > overhead valve engine designs because they are "low tech and crude", or [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Are there any real advantages to these "high tech" engines? I think the advantages are you can spin them faster without the valves floating. Of course this is countered by the natural stretch that happens in the long cam chains or belts which put them out of time faster, and the increased cost of servicing them for even a simple thing like a head gasket leak.
In any case if your lumping in interference engines with non-interference engines your missing the point - regardless of whether the engine is OHC or not, interference designs are always WORSE for the daily driver engine, as they require more maintainence attention that people usually give.
Ted
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