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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2005

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Source For LED Panels (See Design)

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Steve TR - 29 Oct 2005 22:31 GMT
I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a LOT
of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
when you hit the brakes.

This is what the rear end looks like:  http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things.  The first is to give the
"instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the current draw
going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on and you have your
foot on the brakes.

I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot.  You
don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD.  Look
at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass production.
(Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect!  lol) If it doesn't
exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering skills to create four of
these.

http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long.  I
can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in there with the
LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would give an EVENLY DIFFUSED
look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
brakes.

Ideas???

Thanks,
-Steve
3T39 - 29 Oct 2005 22:42 GMT
Hello, Steve!
You wrote  on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:31:23 GMT:

ST> This is what the rear end looks like:
http://216.110.197.146/ltdrear.jpg

ST> I want to install LEDs to do a couple of things.  The first is to give
ST> the "instant on" look for safety and the second is to reduce the
ST> current draw going to the rear of the car when the tail lights are on
ST> and you have your foot on the brakes.

ST> I've seen the cheap bayonet replacement LED based 1157s and they suck.
ST> Yeah, they are bright and give the LED look, but only in a single spot.
ST> You don't have soft diffusion like you do with a filament bulb.

ST> So, I drew up a little blueprint of what I'd like to find for my LTD.
ST> Look at my design and tell me if such a board already exists in mass
ST> production. (Just don't laugh at the drawings... I'm no architect!
ST> lol) If it doesn't exist, I'd be willing to pay someone with soldering
ST> skills to create four of these.

ST> http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif

ST> The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly
ST> like this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10"
ST> long.  I can disassemble my tail lamp housings and fit these panels in
ST> there with the LED's facing the diffuser lense and I think it would
ST> give an EVENLY DIFFUSED look to both the tail lamp lighting and the
ST> lighting when you hit the brakes.

ST> Ideas???

You can buy off the shelf replacements for the 1157's these use a lot less
current. It's just got to be easier.

check this link out
http://makeashorterlink.com/?A2461221C

With best regards, 3T39.  E-mail: rubbishrat@hotmail.com
3T39 - 29 Oct 2005 22:47 GMT
Hello, 3T39!
You wrote to Steve TR on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:42:18 +0100:

"You can buy off the shelf replacements for the 1157's"

Sorry,
just noticed you already knew this. Dooh!
I didn't read the whole post and jumped to the wrong conclusion.

With best regards, 3T39.  E-mail: rubbishrat@hotmail.com
Steve TR - 29 Oct 2005 22:57 GMT
I appreciate the advice.

I actually already have 2 of these "drop in" bayonet replacements and while
they are okay for the "casual user" (lol)  I'm quite picky and don't want to
look like the rest of the import kiddies with the funky looking LED tail
lamps only lighting up in small spots.

I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look and it
seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense will work
wonderfully.  Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it would be all
that expensive...  You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of LEDs and
solder away.  I just suck at soldering.  LOL

> Hello, 3T39!
> You wrote to Steve TR on Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:42:18 +0100:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> With best regards, 3T39.  E-mail: rubbishrat@hotmail.com
Clive Mitchell - 30 Oct 2005 00:03 GMT
>I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look
>and it seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense will
>work wonderfully.  Aside from someone's time, I wouldn' think it would
>be all that expensive...  You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of
>LEDs and solder away.  I just suck at soldering.  LOL

OK, here's how you do it.

You take the lens dimensions and create a PCB outline to fit using a PCB
CAD program.  You then populate the entire area with the pads required
for the LEDs and matching series resistors, and connect the pads with
tracks to make series multiples of four LEDs and a resistor per circuit
across common power bus tracks.  Remember to allow for fixings to fit
the final PCB into the lens or base, and allow a couple of big pads for
attaching the connection wires.  If you have multiple circuits then the
LEDs can be wired in clusters, possibly with diodes to allow individual
or multiple groups to be used from a common switch line.

Now print the finished PCB artwork onto a transparent or translucent
medium and expose a piece of photo sensitive PCB material in a suitable
UV exposure unit.  The PCB can then be developed in an alkaline
developer based on Sodium Hydroxide, then rinsed and etched in a hot
bath of Ferric Chloride with air being blown through it to cause
circulation and agitation of the etchant.  Once etched you can then hand
drill the several hundred 1mm holes required for the components with a
small hand-held drill and then crop the PCB to size and shape before
mounting the resistors on the back, cropping the leads at the front and
then populating the entire front surface with high output (635nm?) LEDs.
If using superflux these are pretty good at self levelling, but 5mm LEDs
are best having their anodes soldered first then hand levelled
individually before having the cathodes soldered.  The choice of
resistor value can be calculated as 13.8 - (4*LED-Vf) / LED-I (20mA for
5mm or 50mA for superflux).  You can calculate the appropriate power
rating for the resistors by multiplying the voltage dropped across them
by the current and rounding up to the nearest power rating.

Now simply pop into your lens and bingo, there you go.

Signature

Clive Mitchell
http:/www.bigclive.com

James Sweet - 30 Oct 2005 19:36 GMT
>> I'm willing to spend $$$ for this project so I can get a correct look
>> and it seems a flat panel filling the entire area behind the lense
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Now simply pop into your lens and bingo, there you go.

Seems like it'd be FAR easier for the novice to use perfboard, at least
for the prototype, then if a PCB is designed use one of the online board
houses that will professionally make the PCBs, the end product is far
nicer for a lot less effort.
Jasen Betts - 01 Nov 2005 07:33 GMT
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.misc.]
> I appreciate the advice.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> that expensive...  You can buy generic blank PCBs and a box of LEDs and
> solder away.  I just suck at soldering.  LOL

a task like this would be good way to gain skills.

start with some perfboard (circuit board with lits of holes and no
cobnecteions made between them) figure out your LED layout stick the leds in
then join them up by the bits that stick out the back

by the time you've done the few thousand solder joins your design wants
you'll be an expert. :)

Signature

Bye.
  Jasen

JosephKK - 12 Nov 2005 02:40 GMT
> I appreciate the advice.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>> With best regards, 3T39.  E-mail: rubbishrat@hotmail.com

Personally, i would try diffusing the existing replacements by roughening
the surface and placing a thin layer of milky plastic in front of the
LED's.  A PCB full of LED's would look like a bunch of dots too.
Signature

JosephKK

Ken Weitzel - 29 Oct 2005 22:54 GMT
> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a LOT
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Thanks,
> -Steve

Hi Steve...

I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
the original incandescents.  I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Take care.

Ken
Steve TR - 29 Oct 2005 23:01 GMT
I appreciate the advice.  As far as the legality of it, well, oh well...
I'm not worried with it enough to go look up lighting regulations, but I'm
thinking that as long as it lights up in a manner close enough to the
original, I'll be okay.

It sure can't be worse than all of the imports/ricers/etc running around
with blue/green/red/amber LEDs and those funky "Altezza" tail lamps they
think is "so cool."

-Steve

>> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
>> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Ken
Rich Webb - 30 Oct 2005 02:27 GMT
>I appreciate the advice.  As far as the legality of it, well, oh well...
>I'm not worried with it enough to go look up lighting regulations, but I'm
>thinking that as long as it lights up in a manner close enough to the
>original, I'll be okay.

Except if you ever have the bad luck to be rear-ended. If the guy that
hit your car (who might really have been the one at fault) notices that
the remains of the rear lights are home-made and not DoT approved then
all he needs is a lawyer. Hell, he'd probably sue you for damages. Your
insurance company might also be interested in finding a way to avoid
paying. They're in business to make the stockholders happy, not you.

Signature

Rich Webb   Norfolk, VA

Steve TR - 30 Oct 2005 02:30 GMT
I understand this.  I'm not looking for legal advice.

>>I appreciate the advice.  As far as the legality of it, well, oh well...
>>I'm not worried with it enough to go look up lighting regulations, but I'm
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> insurance company might also be interested in finding a way to avoid
> paying. They're in business to make the stockholders happy, not you.
Daniel J. Stern - 30 Oct 2005 02:07 GMT
>> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
>> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.  That's a
>> LOT of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and
>> corroded sockets when you hit the brakes.

> I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
> the original incandescents.  I'm very sure that most places we can't
> change them without "breaking the law"

Ken, without going into the excruciating detail I've already covered
this point on in the past, that is not correct.

DS
default - 31 Oct 2005 01:06 GMT
>I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
>the original incandescents.  I'm very sure that most places we can't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Ken

And, what is the law?  

Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and
I can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them.  

I have an interest in reducing my motorcycle's current usage - and
making myself more visible.  LEDs can do it, but I wonder about the
legality (since the DOT has taken 30+ years to accept that halogen
lights are better than "sealed beams" and)  I know LED's can make a
big difference in visibility. - seems to me it is just a matter of
waiting (should I live that long) untill the LED lobbyists pay more
than the incandescent lobbyists.  And we, the people, might be able to
choose.

I think the bottom line is safety.  LED's can do it better than
incandescents - but not in a cost competive way (if one happens to be
a detroit mogul)  so, we have to wait until Detroit allows us this
safety feature . . .

Sealed beams were a great improvement over polished silvered iron
reflectors - in the 30's-  - and so the law was passed - - Halogen
lights came along in the 60/70s and could project more usable light
where it was needed and not cause glare to oncomming headlights - so
the Europeans had them and the US had to wait until General Electric
could develop halogen (sealed beam) headlights (that threw more light
up in the air than directly ahead). unitl the 80's

When GE got out of the market - auto lighting was more or less for
safety.  But there's sitll the spector of some nanny lobbyist out
there to make us safe (in the corporatetly acceptible way).

"I'm very sure that most places we can't
change them without "breaking the law"

Me too.

Then I see celebrities breaking the law. and president's since Nixon,
and presidents circumventing the Consitution since I was born and I
have to wonder what good is the "rule of law?"  It is a matter of what
I can get away with - not what is legal.

So how bad can LED lights be?
Daniel J. Stern - 31 Oct 2005 17:38 GMT
> > I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
> > the original incandescents.  I'm very sure that most places we can't
> > change them without "breaking the law"

> And, what is the law?

Varies by state/province. Some jurisdictions explicitly require that
all motor vehicle lighting devices conform to US Federal Motor Vehicle
Safety Standard 108 (or, in Canada, Canada Motor Vehicle Safety
Standard 108 or 108.1). Other jurisdictions make vague references to
(usually outdated and/or inapplicable) SAE standards. Still other
jurisdictions contain subjective requirements, e.g. "Every vehicle
shall be equipped with two brake lights showing a red light to the rear
when the brakes are applied, which shall be clearly visible for a
distance of such-and-so many feet".

> Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and I
> can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them.

Well, a few things here: First off, SAE is not a regulatory body.
Despite
commonly-used packaging language, there is no such thing as "SAE
approval".
(There's also no such thing as "DOT approval", but that's a different
topic
for a different day). FMVSS108 and CMVSS108 do not require any
particular
fiducial markings on vehicle rear lamps. Such markings are optional and
are
frequently applied by reputable manufacturers of HDV lighting
equipment, which implies you're not looking closely enough for the
markings and/or you don't know what you're looking for.  There are a
great many different LED vehicle brake, marker, tail, parking,
reversing and directional indicator lamps on the
market. Of these, a large proportion are fully compliant with
applicable
regulations and therefore legal in all states and provinces for use in
their
intended applications. (The remainder are 3rd-world knockoff
crapola-this
has been a problem since long before LEDs, and it'll carry on being a
problem long after LEDs are obsolete).

LED exterior lights are appearing more slowly on passenger cars, simply
due
to economic factors. Development and tooling for a good, durable and
legally-compliant lighting device design is extremely expensive and
quite time consuming. HDVs overwhelmingly use lighting devices made to
a dozen or so industry-standard formats (4" round, 7" round, 3" x 5"
rectangular and 2" x 7" oblong brake/tail/turn lamps, for instance).
Passenger cars, on the other hand, overwhelmingly use model-specific
lamps.

> I have an interest in reducing my motorcycle's current usage - and making
> myself more visible.  LEDs can do it, but I wonder about the legality

How come? What makes you think LEDs are illegal? What spoils the safety
compliance of a vehicle is (surprise!) lights that don't produce
intensity somewhere between the minimum and maximum prescribed values,
through at least the prescribed vertical and horizontal angles, with at
least the
prescribed minimum ratio between bright and dim intensity modes, with
at
least the prescribed minimum illuminated area and at least the
prescribed minimum resistance to the prescribed types of deterioration.
That's a long way of saying homemade brake/tail lights and "LED bulb"
retrofits generally don't work well enough to provide adequate safety
performance.

> (since the DOT has taken 30+ years to accept that halogen lights are better
> than "sealed beams"

It's really not that simple. Some of them are, some of them aren't.
Virtually every owner of a '93-'00 Chrysler product who pays any
attention at all to headlamp performance pines for the "performance" of
the $9 sealed beams on his '60s-'80s cars. And as a concept,
sealed-beam construction in standardized form factors makes a great
deal of sense for automotive headlamps. The _implementation_ we were
stuck with for so many years was poor, but there's nothing about
sealed-beam construction, per se, that locks one into poor headlamp
performance. There are plenty of bad replaceable-bulb lights, too.
There are even bad "Xenon" HID lights. Good lights are better than bad
lights; there's too much room in the US headlamp standard for various
kinds of bad lights.

> I know LED's can make a big difference in visibility.

Good lights can make a big difference in visibility and conspicuity
compared
to bad lights. There are some very good LED lights...and a lot of bad
ones.
And there are some very good bulb-type lights.

> is just a matter of waiting (should I live that long) untill the LED
> lobbyists pay more than the incandescent lobbyists.

This doesn't make any sense. See above; more and more LED-based vehicle
lamps hit the road every day with full legal compliance.

> And we, the people, might be able to choose.

You already can.

> Sealed beams were a great improvement over polished silvered iron
> reflectors

Er...there were no "iron" headlamp reflectors. Silvered brass,
generally. Sometimes silvered steel.

> - in the 30's- - and so the law was passed - - Halogen lights came along in
> the 60/70s and could project more usable light where it was needed and not
> cause glare to oncomming headlights - so the Europeans had them and the US
> had to wait until General Electric could develop halogen (sealed beam)
> headlights (that threw more light up in the air than directly ahead).

This is all more or less correct, though GE was _last_ to market with
DOT-certified halogen sealed beams. Westinghouse, Philips and Sylvania
beat them to it by a fairly long margin. GE kept insisting and
insisting that halogen technology was "unnecessary" on automobiles, and
that its use would create more problems than it would solve. This was
probably due more to GE's having recently-at-the-time sunk a great deal
of money into retooling their tungsten sealed beam production
facilities. Ironically, GE was first to market with a halogen sealed
beam in North America. In the early 1970s, GE Canada produced a
"Quartzline" 5-3/4" halogen sealed beam high beam, called Q4001, and
marketed it in Canada. It complied with European photometric
requirements and therefore was legal in Canada, but was "too intense"
for the US' unrealistically low high beam intensity limits and so was
not sold in the US.

> When GE got out of the market - auto lighting was more or less for safety.

GE is very much still in the market. And auto lighting has for a very
long time been as much about politics, economics and non-tariff trade
barriers as about safety.

> So how bad can LED lights be?

Very bad. Just as bad as other kinds of bad lights, if they're not
designed and built properly.

DS
James Sweet - 01 Nov 2005 05:35 GMT
> It's really not that simple. Some of them are, some of them aren't.
> Virtually every owner of a '93-'00 Chrysler product who pays any
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> lights; there's too much room in the US headlamp standard for various
> kinds of bad lights.

There's nothing wrong with the sealed beam construction itself, but the
classic DOT headlamps *suck*. Installing quality OEM E-code headlamps on
my European car was the best thing I ever did to it. People who ride
with me often comment at how good the headlights are and they're usually
shocked when I flip on the high beams. The original sealed beams were
downright dangerous, I was overdriving my headlights going 5 under the
speed limit on a dark highway, yet they still produced more glare to
oncoming traffic than what I have now.
Daniel J. Stern - 01 Nov 2005 18:32 GMT
>> Virtually every owner of a '93-'00 Chrysler product who pays any
>> attention at all to headlamp performance pines for the "performance" of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> sealed-beam construction, per se, that locks one into poor headlamp
>> performance.

> There's nothing wrong with the sealed beam construction itself, but the
> classic DOT headlamps *suck*.

Yep, many of them do. I have a few interesting E-code sealed beams that
produce very well-focued beam patterns. They're little more than
historical/technical curiosities by dint of being an uncommon design;
sealed-beam headlamp construction really never caught on enduringly
outside North America. That said, European regulations are now being
written for the optional installation of sealed-beam *fog* lamps, for some
strange reason.

> Installing quality OEM E-code headlamps on my European car was the best
> thing I ever did to it. People who ride with me often comment at how
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> highway, yet they still produced more glare to oncoming traffic than
> what I have now.

Got a well-stocked public library near you? Go find Car & Driver, March
1979. Start reading on page 93, and don't quit til page 111. It is sad how
much of it's still completely true.

DS
JosephKK - 12 Nov 2005 04:07 GMT
>>I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
>>the original incandescents.  I'm very sure that most places we can't
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy
> via Encryption =----
This sub-thread got me curious, so i looked it up found 49cfr564.  Roughly
it says if it gives equivalent light (including color characteristics) and
is otherwise interchangeable with original it is legal.  Thus halogen
lamps, LED's, induction lamps or whatever are OK.
Signature

JosephKK

Daniel J. Stern - 14 Nov 2005 19:01 GMT
>> Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and
>> I can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them. Then I see
>> celebrities breaking the law. and president's since Nixon, and
>> presidents circumventing the Consitution since I was born and I have to
>> wonder what good is the "rule of law?"  It is a matter of what I can
>> get away with - not what is legal. So how bad can LED lights be?

> This sub-thread got me curious, so i looked it up found 49cfr564.
> Roughly it says if it gives equivalent light (including color
> characteristics) and is otherwise interchangeable with original it is
> legal. Thus halogen lamps, LED's, induction lamps or whatever are OK.

That is not correct. 49CFR564 contains the specifications for replaceable
headlamp "light sources" (bulbs). The actual Federal requirements for car
lights, contained in 49CFR571.108, actually state the opposite of your
faulty understanding: The design and performance characteristics of every
light source are mandatory, and cannot be selectively modified to suit the
whim of whoever's doing the modification. Any modification -- different
power rating, different filament configuration, replacement of filaments
with arcs or arcs with filaments (or arcs or filaments with LEDs, etc.) --
means it is a different light source, not legally interchangeable.

Furthermore, 49CFR564 contains the specifications only for forward
illumination light sources ("bulbs"). Signalling light sources are not
contained in 49CFR564. The exact legal reason behind the illegality of
"LED bulbs" is a little tricky to follow: When such bulbs are installed,
they spoil the compliance of lighting devices designed to use a filament
bulb of one sort or another, and manufacturer-certified as compliant with
FMVSS108 when using that filament bulb. So it's not the bulb itself that's
illegal to sell, buy or install, it's what happens to the performance of
the vehicle lighting device as a result of installing the "LED bulb".

In actual fact, "LED bulbs" do not produce anywhere near the same amount
of light as a filament-type signalling bulb, nor do they produce anywhere
near the same (Lambertian) distribution of light...even those clever ones
with sideward-facing LED emitters in addition to the rearward-facing
items. Installing "LED bulbs" in bulb-type car lamps doesn't just spoil
their compliance with the applicable safety standards, it spoils their
performance. The light is too dim, the illuminated area is too small, the
intensity ratio between bright (brake or turn) and dim (tail or park) is
improper, and the vertical and horizontal angles of visibility are much
too small. All of this adds up to grossly reduced vehicle conspicuity and
safety.

DS
SQLit - 14 Nov 2005 19:29 GMT
> >> Seems to me I see a lot of trucks with new LED signal/stop lights, and
> >> I can get close enough to see no SAE imprimatur on them. Then I see
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> DS

Thanks Dan

I wondered why my city was replacing the traffic light lamps with led's.
Never knew that they had a smaller field of view.  And ya during the summer
sun in the desert you can hardly see them unless there are hoods over the
lens.  Ok they probably save a dime or two in maintenance and energy.
Daniel J. Stern - 14 Nov 2005 21:42 GMT
> I wondered why my city was replacing the traffic light lamps with led's.

This is a departure from the topic that was being discussed (retrofitting
automotive lighting devices with "LED bulbs"). Were you wondering why they
were replacing the entire traffic light instead of just screwing in an
"LED bulb"?

> Never knew that they had a smaller field of view.

Well, individual LED emitters give a highly directional beam (light
emitted in one direction), while a filament lamp produces light in an even
sphere (light emitted in all directions). But, LED traffic lights -- like
LED vehicle lighting devices -- are engineered to produce the required
amounts of light through the required angles of visibility.

> And ya during the summer sun in the desert you can hardly see them
> unless there are hoods over the lens.  Ok they probably save a dime or
> two in maintenance and energy.

H'm. That's an interesting complaint. Most all of the LED traffic signals
I've seen in North America and Europe are considerably more conspicuous
than their filament-lamp type counterparts. And, FYI, the LED traffic
signals save a fortune, not a dime or two, in maintenance and energy.

DS
SQLit - 14 Nov 2005 23:10 GMT
> > I wondered why my city was replacing the traffic light lamps with led's.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> DS

Not a complaint, just an observation/realization. Until I read your post I
never thought about the field of view. Makes sense to keep lights "focused"
into the area needed. As long as you in the area being served the led's do
tend to stand out more.  I will need to keep this in mind the next control
panel I build that has a "whole lot of little tiny lights"

I have installed LED's in exit signs when the company had the money. Over
all we have reduced the loading on the generators by ~25 kw. Also do not
have to visit the exit sign again, probably in my career. Most of the retro
fits are guaranteed for 10 years. Which means they will probably last a lot
longer.
James Sweet - 15 Nov 2005 04:02 GMT
> This is a departure from the topic that was being discussed
> (retrofitting automotive lighting devices with "LED bulbs"). Were you
> wondering why they were replacing the entire traffic light instead of
> just screwing in an "LED bulb"?

Around here they usually install LED retrofits in the traffic lights
unless the signals don't meet current spec in some other way. The
retrofits take the place of the reflector and lense, and mount in the
door with the existing lense mount.

I've also seen retrofits that were a disk shaped pcb full of LED's with
a screw base on a post on the back side but those are much less common.
Jasen Betts - 01 Nov 2005 08:26 GMT
> I'd strongly urge you to check before you install anything other than
> the original incandescents.  I'm very sure that most places we can't
> change them without "breaking the law"

depends what the law says: it might just say "clearly visible" from such an
angle and distance... still that could have a bearing on the best choice of LED.

Bye.
  Jasen
dkuhajda@locl.net - 29 Oct 2005 23:02 GMT
What is the current draw for one 1157 bulb?
What is the current draw for 19X5= 95 high output LEDS?
Rob - 29 Oct 2005 23:04 GMT
> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a LOT
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Thanks,
> -Steve
Hello Steve,
Not sure if this does exist comercially, but I'll make some up for you
if you don't find any from a comercial source.
Regards
Robert
http//notrocketscience.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
Matt - 29 Oct 2005 23:11 GMT
Steve -

I don't know of anywhere that mass produces something like this, but
then again I don't really know anything about replacements like this, I
just happened to run across your post.

I can see what you want, but I think you will probably need to go
through a few prototypes before you get what you want.

I'd recc. you get some breadboard, something like:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102846&cp=&kw=breadboard&
parentPage=search


or google breadboard and look for something else.

You can then cut the board to the dimensions you need, and start
prototyping.

Soldering really isn't that difficult, and this would be an ideal
project to learn that skill.

Other than that, maybe post over in sci.electronics.design for some
other ideas.

Seems like it might be a fun project, if nothing else.

Good luck,

Matt
Steve TR - 29 Oct 2005 23:14 GMT
Hey, thanks for the advice.  I had no idea what to search for to find the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together.  maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
what happens...

Thanks,
-Steve

> Steve -
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Matt
James Sweet - 29 Oct 2005 23:17 GMT
> Hey, thanks for the advice.  I had no idea what to search for to find the
> (as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks,
> -Steve

Yeah, breadboard, perfboard, vectorboard, it's all pretty similar stuff.

Check out here for LEDs, I've gotten some pretty good deals.
http://www.surplusled.com/
Matt - 29 Oct 2005 23:36 GMT
Steve,

Glad to help.

Also, google 'how to solder electronics' or something similar, you will
find plenty of tutorials to help you get started with the selction of
the proper iron and solder, (some even have viddys you can watch) and
then it's just practice.

The only other thing I would be concerned with, and it's a minor
concern, but I would guess that once you get to a final version you are
ready to install, it will be subject to the same corrosion/vibration
factors as the bulbs you are replacing; and also you will want the back
of the circuit to be well insulated from touching the car frame. I know
that the circuit boards in my washer and dryer are sealed in some sort
of epoxy to protect them from corrosion, perhaps others can point you
in a direction for some sort of epoxy or enclosure to protect the
finished product.

Matt

Hey, thanks for the advice.  I had no idea what to search for to find
the
(as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.

I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
soldering components together.  maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and
see
what happens...

Thanks,
-Steve
Steve TR - 29 Oct 2005 23:41 GMT
If I do come up with some sort of raw circuit board with hundreds of tiny
solder joints on the rear, I was going to cover it in a layer of silicone or
some sort of nonconductive insulator to help keep moisture out, although
these tail lights seal pretty tightly against weather and dust.

We shall see what happens.

> Steve,
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Thanks,
> -Steve
stickyfox@gmail.com - 29 Oct 2005 23:45 GMT
Make sure you go for superbrites if you are replacing the lamps.
"Ordinary" red LEDs are in the 10-30 mCd range. You should be shopping
in the 500+ mCd range. If you get the 10 Cd ones you may end up with
something that will blind other motorists at night, but you can always
drop the current a little. Each LED will draw about 30-70 mA at around
2V.

You will probably end up wiring them in series-parallel, and you will
find in that case that some LEDs are a little more "greedy" than
others, and will draw all of the current off, so if you plan to use a
series-parallel arrangement, buy extras and then test all of them to
match voltages.

If you don't want to be bothered with all of that, you can just use
more resistors.
Mike W. - 30 Oct 2005 03:40 GMT
'Generic PC boards' I think you mean perf. board, just a rectangular PC
board, with rows of holes pre-drilled and pads/traces on the back.

You might want to go to a junkyard and see if you can get your hands on a
late-model Cadillac taillight assembly, they use LED's just as you are
wanting to do. Maybe it will help you with the engineering.

> Hey, thanks for the advice.  I had no idea what to search for to find the
> (as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks,
> -Steve
Bob - 30 Oct 2005 04:27 GMT
> Hey, thanks for the advice.  I had no idea what to search for to find the
> (as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.
>
> I can solder wires together, but just never have had much luck with
> soldering components together.  maybe I'll buy a bag full of LEDs and see
> what happens...

Maybe you can just trim one of these down...
http://www.alltronics.com/Light_Sources.htm

The arrow is already rectangular.

This http://www.alltronics.com/images/23L002.jpg has 18 real bright leds in
a pattern..
Bob - 30 Oct 2005 14:19 GMT
>> Hey, thanks for the advice.  I had no idea what to search for to find the
>> (as I was calling it) generic printed circuit boards.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> This http://www.alltronics.com/images/23L002.jpg has 18 real bright leds
> in a pattern..
Here's the full list.... http://www.robotics.com/surplus.html 
frenchy - 30 Oct 2005 00:29 GMT
How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?  Sure it
would take more than just spraying some white paint over them but
doesn't seem insurmountable... some thick white transluscent plastic
lens, clear plastic lens with bunch of metal flakes suspended in it,
little piece of foil on tips of the lenses and them white material at
base fo lens so light bounces off the lens back onto the white backing,
I dunno.  How bout just clear lens that spreads the light out like a
projector?  Maybe once you diffused them perfectly then you'd find out
they don't have enough light output anyway.
Steve TR - 30 Oct 2005 00:46 GMT
I've thought of that and might try it.

Because...

The tail lamp assembly already has a fresnel (or is it lenticular?) lens in
there.  It does a wonderful job of diffusing light when the light source is
smack dab in the center of the fresnel lens.

-Steve

> How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
> some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?  Sure it
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> projector?  Maybe once you diffused them perfectly then you'd find out
> they don't have enough light output anyway.
Daniel J. Stern - 30 Oct 2005 02:08 GMT
> How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
> some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?

The "1157 LED bulbs" don't put out nearly enough total light, period. No
diffuser is going to help that.
JosephKK - 12 Nov 2005 04:28 GMT
>> How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
>> some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?
>
> The "1157 LED bulbs" don't put out nearly enough total light, period. No
> diffuser is going to help that.

And you came up with this how?  legal requirements state otherwise.
Signature

JosephKK

James Sweet - 12 Nov 2005 07:30 GMT
>>>How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
>>>some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And you came up with this how?  legal requirements state otherwise.

Just look at them, legal or not, they're dangerously dim, at least the
ones I've seen in use so far.
Douglas G. Cummins - 14 Nov 2005 17:13 GMT
>>>How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
>>>some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And you came up with this how?  legal requirements state otherwise.

Because he has data that shows "LED Bulb" replacements do not put out
the same amount of light as the original incandescent bulb.  And they
never will.  If you want LED lights, you need to either buy a
preapproved lamp or actually spend time and money designing one.  It
must meet the requirements in 49CFR571.108, also known as FMVSS 108.

I've looked at several of these LED replacements.  They are dangerous -
putting out as little as 1/10th the light of a standard incandescent.
Also, they only put out light in one direction - straight back if you're
lucky.  Lamps designed to use incandescents use reflectors - light from
the LED bulbs rarely hits these reflectors and so it doesn't get
distributed properly.

Signature

Douglas Cummins
Calcoast - ITL

Daniel J. Stern - 14 Nov 2005 18:49 GMT
>>> How about coming up with some off the shelf or homemade diffuser of
>>> some kind to snap or attach to the end of the 1157 LED bulbs?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
> And you came up with this how?

Photometric testing.

> legal requirements state otherwise. --

Actually, the legal requirements in force in North America agree with me,
and not with you. If you believe otherwise, your understanding of the
applicable regulations is faulty.

DS (the legal requirements in force everywhere else in the world also
agree with me, but that's beside the point).
JDG - 30 Oct 2005 02:16 GMT
> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a LOT
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Thanks,
> -Steve

Email me off the group, I might have something close to what you're
looking for and/or need... kromatooz@ndak.net
Daniel J. Stern - 30 Oct 2005 02:30 GMT
> http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif
>
> The drawing is not perfect and the device doesn't need to be exactly like
> this, but just a flat panel around 3 to 4" high and roughly 6-10" long.

Your individual emitters designated as tail or brake: Wrong way to do it.
You really want all your emitters to be active in both modes. There are
readily available PWM circuits for the dim "tail" mode, and then you just
shoot full power to 'em for the bright brake/turn mode.

http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=1&fId=57 (The one I'd recommend
is the 36-emitter unit P/N M417RP here:
http://www.pmlights.com/products.cfm?cId=1&fId=57&pId=1478 ) They're 4"
round, and you could simply line 'em up side by side by each, spaced about
3/4" or so away from the inner surface of the car's lenses. Dual-intensity
capability built right in, on all emitters, and these guys are BRIGHT.

To reduce the appearance of discrete circular areas of light, I'd obtain
some diamond-pattern fluorescent ceiling light diffuser material and place
a single thickness of it right up against the inner surface of the car's
lenses.

If you gotta have rectangular, there is an LED Model 45 from Truck-Lite.
3-13/32" by 5-5/16", P/N 45252R, e.g.
http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0812540 (Truck-Lite's own site
is down at the moment).

These "full-pattern" items cram-packed with emitters are the better way to
go, compared to the units which use fewer emitters (5 to 8, typically)
with fresnel optics to spread the light.

(Sure, it can be fun to start from scratch using nothing more than
perfboard and raw LED emitters, but the optics make a real problem -- they
cannot effectively be crafted in your workshop -- and these modules are
inexpensive enough that you can pick 'em up, install 'em, and then move on
to other things.)

You will need a different turn signal flasher. I recommend an Ideal EL-12C
electronic heavy-duty plug-in flasher. Nice loud click, and it won't care
that the load has suddenly got a lot lighter. The stock flasher won't
work, because it is load-sensitive.

For your next trick:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/relays/relays.html and
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html

;-)

DS
Steve TR - 30 Oct 2005 05:50 GMT
I knew your name would pop up eventually with loads of flawless advice.
THANK YOU!

Looking at the websites you provided, I think I can easily adapt some of the
products listed to fit my needs.  And as far as a diffuser goes, each tail
lamp already has a full width clear fresnel (?) lens in there behind the
outer red lens.  I found that by sticking a single LED flashlight in the
center on the lens, it would illuminate the entire lens evenly.  Dim, but it
was fully lit.  So one of these round or rectagular complete LED lamp
assemblies in each tail light section would work great.  I could get away
with four of them I believe, maybe six, or even if I have to use eight, the
current draw would still be less than what I'm having with eight 1157's all
lit up.

And yep, thermal flasher won't work.  I've already switched to an electronic
"heavy duty" flasher just for the shear loudness of it.  It's a convertible
and so there is wind noise... It's nice to be able to hear the flasher
ticking.

THANKS AGAIN!

-Steve

>> http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif
>>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> DS
Steve TR - 31 Oct 2005 04:25 GMT
Just for closure...

Here is a photo of one of the disassembled tail lamp sections.

http://216.110.197.146/taillamp.jpg

After poking around with a small LED flashlight and the clear inner fresnel
lens, I really think I need to purchase a handful of the round LED lamps you
suggested.  One of those pre-fabbed tail lamps at the right spot on that
lens will make a LOT of light that is evenly dispersed.

Plus, it's all wired and already made to withstand the elements.  I can pop
them in there, fill the old lamp socket holes with rubber grommets, and be
done.

Also, I never realized that the LEDs actually dimmed for tail versus brake
lights.  I just thought there were just  more or less of them illuminated as
needed.

So I'll give it a go with the standard round LED lamps you suggest are very
bright.

Thanks,
-Steve

>> http://216.110.197.146/led_design.gif
>>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> DS
Andrew Rossmann - 30 Oct 2005 15:28 GMT
> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a LOT
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> look to both the tail lamp lighting and the lighting when you hit the
> brakes.

 One issue with many LED replacements is that they generally only have
LED's pointing one way, with some also having a few sideways LED's. The
main problem is that there may be none pointing toward the rear, which
would bounce light off the reflector, giving a broader band of light.

 Maybe if you could find a version with a wide distribution of light,
along with some of the diffusion techniques posted by others, to get a
more incandescent-looking pattern.

 Also, if there is such a thing as a 'short' LED version, it may help
by keeping the light source further away from the car's lens, giving the
light more time to spread. Remember that with an incandescent, the
filament is in the middle of the bulb, whereas those LED's look like the
light comes right out at the end of a unit almost the same size as an
1157.

Signature

If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.att.net/~andyross

John-Del - 01 Nov 2005 02:10 GMT
> I've got a 1971 Ford LTD Convertible.  These cars have eight 1157 style
> bulbs in the rear to give full width tail and brake lights.   That's a LOT
> of current going through 30+ year old wiring, switches, and corroded sockets
> when you hit the brakes.

I have a 66 Mustang 2+2 that has LED lights from a company called
Mustang Project
http://www.mustangproject.com/67-68%20Shelby%20Conversion%20Kit.pdf .
You can contact them and see if they have a universal led kit for other
cars.

BTW, you are correct about using the original wiring harness for high
current devices.  What I do is use my original switches and wiring just
as "signal" sources, and have them feed high current automobile quality
relays.  My headlights, fuel pump (fuel injected 5.0), electric fan,
fog lights etc. are fed by a new heavy (and fused) 12v bus.

John
 
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