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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2005

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Opinion Poll: Which Engine is the Easiest to Repair?

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cfoughty@gmail.com - 14 Nov 2005 22:44 GMT
I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:

o Only engines within the last 50 years
o Give preference to engines that get good MPG (v8's do sometimes!)
o Try to use some facts! And give examples to justify.
o Current parts availability (the cheaper the parts the better)
o Reliability is highly rated
o High performance is not that important
o The vehicle the engine is used in can/does affect the ability to
repair, so mention that if you could.
o What did I leave out?

I know this asking a lot, and I give thanks in advance for those that
are willing to help.

I will summarize and post the results back to this newsgroup.

Thanks,

Cy
Steve Mackie - 14 Nov 2005 23:22 GMT
General Motors 2.8L MPFI (1987-1989, RIP)

No examples necessary. It's an opinion, not a debate.

Steve

> I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Cy
N8N - 14 Nov 2005 23:48 GMT
> I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Cy

My vote would be for the 225 slant six.  Reasonably peppy and great
access even in an A-body (which would actually be my platform of
choice.)  Everything still available for dirt cheap.  Cast iron
reliable.

Honorable mention - Volkswagen 1.8L gasoline engine, early type with
CIS and mechanical lifters - for the same reasons.  Loses points for
accessablility as it came in FWD cars, also loses points for requiring
too many special tools to work on.  Still an awesome engine.

Honorable mention - Studebaker 259 and 289 V-8.  Included just because
I like 'em.  No idea how difficult they are to work on as I've never
done any more serious internal work to one beyond replacing manifolds
and water pumps and setting the valve clearances.  They just run.
Parts availability is a minus however - everything is available, but
you pretty much have to order everything.

nate
Daniel J. Stern - 15 Nov 2005 17:34 GMT
> My vote would be for the 225 slant six.

OK, I'll bite: What makes the 225 easier to repair than the 198 or 170
versions of the same engine? ;-)
Ad absurdum per aspera - 15 Nov 2005 19:55 GMT
> OK, I'll bite: What makes the 225 easier to repair than the 198 or 170
> versions of the same engine? ;-)

You can get to the repair area faster?

(Actually the 144 cid version of the Falcon Six was the real 98-pound
weakling, especially when coupled to the Two Flavor Slush Cone, er,
Ford-o-Matic, whose gear selectors should have read L and O, for
Lugging and Over-revving.)

Seriously, all the Slant Sixes were rightly honored for reliability,
but I'd give the nod to their Ford counterparts for ease of what
repairs were needed.  A lot of old-timers thought that was the best
engine Ford ever made, and fortunately they soon started making it in
much bigger sizes,  culminating in 300 c.i.d. for pickup trucks.  I
always thought setting the breaker points in a Slant Six in a smaller
body was a bit of a pain on account of, well, the slant, and then you
had the mechanical lifters to set.

(A 4WD crew-cab three-quarter ton Dodge that I once maintained at work
presented  the opposite problem:  I was not big enough to get at
everything easily from the outside and not small enough to just sit
*in* the underhood cavern and reach 'way over to the engine...  A
stepstool and a backache filled the bill.)

Of course, none of these problems are all that big a deal even for the
beginner, and not within an order of magnitude of getting at the rear
plugs on some traditionally mounted GM vee engines, or doing almost
anything to the dark side of almost anybody's *transverse* vee engine.
 Almost any single-underarm-cam inline Six mounted fore and aft in
almost any American car built  before what a friend of mine calls the
"heart-lung machine era" of pollution-related engine controls is going
to be pretty copacetic for the beginning mechanic, and most of them
could take a fair bit of abuse and neglect before large hard-parts
problem reared their ugly head.  

--Joe
Daniel J. Stern - 15 Nov 2005 21:44 GMT
>> OK, I'll bite: What makes the 225 easier to repair than the 198 or 170
>> versions of the same engine? ;-)
>
> You can get to the repair area faster?

Naw, ya cain't. The only difference in service access is the 170 vs. 225
in a '60-'62 Valiant or Lancer. The heater box is on the firewall, and
clearance is tight between the bottom of the heater box and the top of the
rearmost 5 inches of the rocker cover on the 225. It is possible to remove
the rocker cover without removing the heater box, but it's a 5-minute
hassle that doesn't exist with the 170, which is an inch lower.

DS
Ad absurdum per aspera - 15 Nov 2005 22:01 GMT
I was thinking of how fast the car goes (not that any of them are going
to set any records...)  There is no substitute for cubic inches,
especially when you've got relatively few of 'em...

Cheers,
--Joe
N8N - 15 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT
> I was thinking of how fast the car goes (not that any of them are going
> to set any records...)  There is no substitute for cubic inches,
> especially when you've got relatively few of 'em...
>
> Cheers,
> --Joe

Once upon a time, in a land far, far away I owned a '67 Dart 4-door
with a 225 in it.  Somewhere along the line the car had been
bastardized and it had a later "super six" two-barrel intake on it;
that car was surprisingly quick off the line and suprised quite a few
people that thought they could beat my grandma-looking beater at the
stoplight grand prix.

Some days I regret selling that car, but then again, the second time i
replaced the transmission it was snowing...

nate
markansas859 - 17 Nov 2005 05:18 GMT
> Once upon a time, in a land far, far away I owned a '67 Dart 4-door
> with a 225 in it.  Somewhere along the line the car had been
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> nate

congrats. you are the only person I know that managed to blow up a Chrysler
transmission. the tourqueflight automatic was as bulletproof as the 225 6,
and the 318 V8
N8N - 17 Nov 2005 12:36 GMT
> > Once upon a time, in a land far, far away I owned a '67 Dart 4-door
> > with a 225 in it.  Somewhere along the line the car had been
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> transmission. the tourqueflight automatic was as bulletproof as the 225 6,
> and the 318 V8

I can tell you exactly how it happened, this car was a learning
experience for me.  I bought it for the princely sum of $150 since it
had no brakes, wouldn't start, had been wrecked into a parked car by
the PO, and none of the accessories worked..  A brake job, some
rewiring, new tires, an idler arm, a junkyard fender and an adjustment
to the choke pull off later and I was driving,  But someone had dropped
a "reman" 225 in it at some point, as all that was original was the
exhaust manifold - it had later style head, intake and carb.  Whoever
did it was a friggin' idiot; they left off the heavy metal brace
between the engine and trans which apparently is important.  (I didn't
know it was even supposed to be there until I started looking for parts
in the junkyard and looked at a few other cars.)  They also patched the
cooler lines with fuel hose.  After I had the trans replaced for the
first time, after the flexplate sheared on me,  the fuel hose failed
literally the day i picked the car up, with smoky results and also a
good amount of slippage due to running out of fluid at speed.  I was
fairly annoyed with the mechanic that I'd paid to replace the trans...
you would have thought that he might have brought this to my attention.
Guess not.

I replaced the trans myself at the side of the road with another
junkyard unit, being out of money at this point (I'd just graduated
from college and hadn't found a Real Job(tm) yet.)  Yes, at the same
time I replaced the tranny cooler lines with hard lines.  When this
trans turned out to be DOA, I sold the car to a girl who had been
admiring the car ever since I got it.  She obviously had good taste in
vehicles, her DD was an old Jeepster Commando so I knew it was going to
a good home.  Last time I talked to her, she'd hammered out all the
dents, put a decent paint job on it, and had pulled the whole
drivetrain for a real post mortem.  Apparently above and beyond the
missing brace, the root cause of the issues was the reman engine, which
I'd ASSumed to be good since it ran strong and smooth.  Here apparently
there was a good 1/4" of crank endplay, explaining the blowed up
flexplate and subsequent front pump failure.  Once that was sorted, her
boyfriend was apparently using the car as a DD with no problems.  (IMHO
he didn't appreciate just how good he had it, but that's another story
for another time...)

Now I am retrospectively kicking myself, as in the neighborhood/circle
of acquantances I had at the time, there was not only my Dart, but a
'64? Valiant, a '65 Dart, and a '69 Valiant all floating around.  The
'69 I convinced my then-GF to buy as a DD, which despite the complaints
of her mom was a hell of a car.  I think she paid $1100 for it and all
it needed was new front end bushings to get through PA's safety
inspection.  She drove that for a good 5-6 years with the only major
repair needed being a rebuilt head, when she burned a valve probably by
never having the valves adjusted. Only other issue with that car was it
ate points, and at one point the stock Holley basically disintegrated
interally and was replaced by a Carter.  The '64 was pristine, but
oddly enough also wrecked in the exact same manner as my car by its
owner (and probably in a similar state of inebriation.)  The '65 was
for sale for a good price, but had a bad carburetor according to its
owner.  In hindsight, I should have probably bought a reman carb for a
test drive, because IIRC the asking price was under $1K and it was
almost as nice as the '64.  (had my car had the stock single barrel, I
probably would have bought it as I would have had a carb at my
disposal.  My GF wouldn't let me borrow the carb off of her car for
whatever reason...)  All were four doors, 225/904s and all but mine
were in exceptional shape - keep in mind that this was in Pittsburgh
ca. 1998 so a rust free car of that vintage was very rare.  I would
have been happy with any of these cars, but ended up replacing the '67
with an '84 Rabbit GTI instead... a good car in its own right, but
certainly not as distinctive as an old A-body.  Plus I had my '67 that
could have been used for a parts car, with four brand new brake
assemblies.

Also about that time I located a '67 GT hardtop in a local junkard in
exceptional shape, with a 273/auto.  I seriously considered buying it
whole from the junkyard as a project, until one day I was there buying
parts for my car when I found that they'd sold the transmission out of
it, by flipping the car on its side with a forklift and cutting it out
with a torch.  I really liked the owner of the yard, but I bit back a
few choice words that day...

sorry for the long rambling...

nate
markansas859 - 17 Nov 2005 14:40 GMT
tis okay, Nate, I grew up in a MOPAR family

one uncle had a 1956 Plymouth he drove till 1973, when someone ran a stop
sign on him. he bought a 1966 Dodge Coronet new for his wife, and he
replaced the 56 Plymouth with a 65 Dodge Monaco

another uncle had several Plymouth Furys, and a 1980 Volare, which he just
sold 2 years ago

My dad had a 1957 Plymouth, a 1966 Dodge Polara, and a 1976 Dodge Aspen

I did it in style..... I had a 1973 Chrysler New Yorker Broughan in 1980,
drove it a year, and sold it for what I paid for it

then was the 85 Plymouth UN Reliant, and more recently, girlfriends dad's 86
Aries wagon, which I sold for twice what I got it for 4 months earlier

and cumulating in a 1991 Dodge Dynasty LE

so, yeah, I have seen a few 225's, 318's 2.2 L, 2.5 L , 3.3L, and a 440

Dodge is in my blood......  :)
Scott Dorsey - 17 Nov 2005 15:04 GMT
>congrats. you are the only person I know that managed to blow up a Chrysler
>transmission. the tourqueflight automatic was as bulletproof as the 225 6,
>and the 318 V8

I had an '85 Laser, and the transaxle was a nightmare.  I had 480,000
miles on the original engine and original turbocharger, but junked
the car when the manual transaxle blew for the fifth time.

Every single one of the transaxle problems had to due with fluid loss.
Some of them were due to slow leaks, others rapid loss.  All in different
places, and all requiring a new transaxle.  (And no, I didn't buy
cheap rebuilts, although I did do the rebuild _once_ myself.  After
that experience, I decided to pay for the next one.)

Incidentally, I have a box of spare tune-up parts for that car somewhere.
If anybody's driving one of the 2.8L things, send me an address and I'll
send you some oil filters, rotors, plugs, etc.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Daniel J. Stern - 17 Nov 2005 18:19 GMT
> I had an '85 Laser, and the transaxle was a nightmare.  I had 480,000
> miles on the original engine and original turbocharger, but junked the
> car when the manual transaxle blew for the fifth time. Incidentally, I
> have a box of spare tune-up parts for that car somewhere. If anybody's
> driving one of the 2.8L things, send me an address and I'll send you
> some oil filters, rotors, plugs, etc.

I would *love* to see oil filters, rotors, plugs, etc. for a 2.8-litre '85
Laser.
Scott Dorsey - 17 Nov 2005 21:05 GMT
>> I had an '85 Laser, and the transaxle was a nightmare.  I had 480,000
>> miles on the original engine and original turbocharger, but junked the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I would *love* to see oil filters, rotors, plugs, etc. for a 2.8-litre '85
>Laser.

Thwap.  Thwap me for the typo too.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

C. E. White - 15 Nov 2005 23:41 GMT
> Seriously, all the Slant Sixes were rightly honored for reliability,
> but I'd give the nod to their Ford counterparts for ease of what
> repairs were needed.  A lot of old-timers thought that was the best
> engine Ford ever made, and fortunately they soon started making it in
> much bigger sizes,  culminating in 300 c.i.d. for pickup trucks.

This is not true. The 300 cid six used in trucks was related to the much
older big block inline six family that started in the fifties (or forties?).
Another family member was the 240 cid six. The 144 cid, small block six, was
related to the 170 cid, 200 cid, and 250 cid six cylinder engines. Family
relations of this small six are still built in Australia.

See:

http://www.fordsix.com/tech/engine/200_swap.php

Ed
N8N - 15 Nov 2005 21:37 GMT
> > My vote would be for the 225 slant six.
>
> OK, I'll bite: What makes the 225 easier to repair than the 198 or 170
> versions of the same engine? ;-)

I want to work on a 225.  When I see a busted 198 or 170, I want to rip
it out and drop in a 225.  Therefore a 225 is easier for me to work on.
:)

nate
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 22:15 GMT
> > > My vote would be for the 225 slant six.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I want to work on a 225.  When I see a busted 198 or 170, I want to rip
> it out and drop in a 225.  Therefore a 225 is easier for me to work on.

The stock induction (and lesserly the exhaust) system on the /6 makes
me want to vomit. A stainless or aluminized heavy wall tube exhaust
and a good three two barrel carb setup or a sanitary and fixable FI
setup would be a big improvement. Big, big improvement.

The other thing is there are few chassis I'd want to own that take the
/6. The trucks, but they deserve a diesel.
N8N - 15 Nov 2005 23:11 GMT
> > > > My vote would be for the 225 slant six.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>  The other thing is there are few chassis I'd want to own that take the
> /6. The trucks, but they deserve a diesel.

I wouldn't mind a '65 or '66 A-body, myself.

There are good intake and exhaust systems available for the slanty, as
well...

nate
Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY& - 16 Nov 2005 01:23 GMT
>>>>My vote would be for the 225 slant six.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>  The other thing is there are few chassis I'd want to own that take the
> /6. The trucks, but they deserve a diesel.

I would love to see a diesel conversion in one of the old Power Wagons,
but for most of the '70s and early '80s stuff, MOPAR stood for Mostly
Old Parts and Rust. Nevertheless, my dad did a diesel conversion (mainly
for the hell of it I think) of a beat-up and patched up '78 Dodge 4WD
pickup that was held together mostly with duct tape and Bondo. He
dropped a 4 cylinder B-series Cummins Turbo diesel into it in 1986 that
had about 10,000 hours on it as a prototype test engine. It was as nasty
as a Redneck's dream machine could be: it had solid engine mounts,
sounded like a bulldozer, and had a front bumper made from 3/8 inch
steel plate a foot tall. Main problem was it was limited in top speed to
about 62 MPH due to the low RPM of the diesel and the gearing designed
for a 318. We kept that truck in the family for about 10 years, until my
brother in law sold it to some Good Ole Boys out Pittsburgh way for $200
about 8 years ago. Dad went on to buy a brand new 1989 Cummins Dodge the
first year they were offered, and still drives it.
C. E. White - 14 Nov 2005 23:52 GMT
The easiest engine I have ever personally worked on was the Ford 1.6L "Kent"
4 cylinder. Second easiest was a Ford 2L Pinto Engine (the German built one,
not the 2.3L Lima engine). Other easy engines were the 4 cylinders in
Austin-Healey Sprites, Ford Vulcan 3.0L V-6, Ford 4.9L inline 6 cylinder.
Worst engines - hmmmm Toyota Cressida 6 cylinder, Ford Taurus 3.8L, Datsun
280Z 6 cylinder, Audi 2.2L 5 cylinder., any Ford modular V-8, Lotus 2.0L
DOHC 4 cylinder. In between - Ford 2.9L and 4.0L OHC German built V-6s,
Mazda 2.0L SOHC 4 cylinder, Ford pushrod V-8s, Chrysler 2.2L SOHC 4
cylinder, VW 1.8L four cylinder, Ford 2.3L "Lima" 4 cylinder.

In general, push rod engines are generally easier to work on than overhead
cam engines. Over head cam (OHC) engines with belts are easier than OHC
engines with chains. DOHC engines are harder than SOHC engines. OHC engines
with finger followers are easier to work on than OHC engines with bucket
tappets. Inline engines are easier than vee style engines. Fewer cylinders
are easier than more cylinders. In my experience the difference in
complexity between the 1.6L Kent OHV 4 cylinder and the 2.0L Pinto OHC 4
cylinder were minimal. The 2.0L actually had fewer parts than the 1.6L, but
you could work on the 1.6L with a couple of crescent wrenches.

Ed White

>I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Cy
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 02:47 GMT
In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
cheapest to buy parts for, and often by a long shot. The distributor is
in the back, making timing awkward, but is otherwise pretty
straightforward to work on.
mst - 15 Nov 2005 02:53 GMT
> In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
> cheapest to buy parts for, and often by a long shot. The distributor is
> in the back, making timing awkward, but is otherwise pretty
> straightforward to work on.

Except for some years, such as the '96 V-8 Camaro. Try
changing that distributor/rotor out in 15 minutes.

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Daniel J. Stern - 15 Nov 2005 18:19 GMT
> In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
> cheapest to buy parts for

...and they need those parts a great deal more often than
better-engineered engines.
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 19:41 GMT
> > In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
> > cheapest to buy parts for
>
> ...and they need those parts a great deal more often than
> better-engineered engines.

The engineering on the SBC was excellent. The execution often
suffered, with bad valve guides and seats in most stock engines,  and
some very Mickey Mouse head castings in the late Gen1 era. A
blueprinted, balanced SBC built out of "good guy" components would last
as long as any gas engine in its displacement and weight class.
N8N - 15 Nov 2005 21:40 GMT
> > > In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
> > > cheapest to buy parts for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> blueprinted, balanced SBC built out of "good guy" components would last
> as long as any gas engine in its displacement and weight class.

It's my understanding that the blocks (except for special HiPo blocks)
were a fairly "soft" alloy, making a ring job pointless - if the rings
are gone, you need to overbore and buy new pistons.  Also most had cast
cranks while other engines mentioned elsewhere in this thread had
forged in even the most mundane apps, with larger bearing areas.

nate
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 22:09 GMT
> > > > In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
> > > > cheapest to buy parts for
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> cranks while other engines mentioned elsewhere in this thread had
> forged in even the most mundane apps, with larger bearing areas.

Cast cranks in non-high-output applications are not necessarily a
demerit. As Dave Blanton pointed out, the cast crank is often harder,
substantially so, than the forged one. Aircraft people had a phobia
about cast cranks because VW converters found cast, non-counterweighted
VW cranks in direct drive propeller service would fail quickly. The VW
engine crankshaft was not only never designed for direct propeller
drive, they were putting the prop on the gen pulley end of the crank
and either bolting the engine, sans flywheel, to the firewall and
running a Vertex mag or putting it on spacers and driving an
aircraft/tractor (same thing) mag by a long thin Gilmer type belt. I
call this Mickey Mouse U. School of Engineering.

Chevy did cheese in using the two bolt main bearing caps in lower rated
versions, but there is an aftermarket conversion that is even better
than the factory four bolt setup. At any rate, Chevy (and Mopar) blocks
have always been of generally lesser metallurgy than Ford blocks-but
Ford then ruins the "advantage" by paper thin castings incapable of
rebore. I think most of us rate this one as "a pox on all your houses"
because sleeved bores are the right way to do things and no production
iron block American engine has them.
N8N - 15 Nov 2005 23:19 GMT
> > > > > In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
> > > > > cheapest to buy parts for
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> because sleeved bores are the right way to do things and no production
> iron block American engine has them.

I'm not aware of the need to use sleeves in either AMC or Studebaker
builds...  I've been told by people who should know that those are the
two finest V-8s made when it comes to building a forced-induction
engine that makes big HP numbers but is still reliable and streetable.
Both apparently use high-nickel block castings as well, and I've heard
from several sources that machine shops absolutely loathe being asked
to overbore a Stude engine, as you can literally wear out a boring bar
before you get done with the job.

Of course, neither the Stude nor the Rambler/AMC was manufactured in
anything approaching the numbers of any of the Big Three, so apparently
that capability is not a big selling point among the general American
population...  (why not?  if i could buy one new, I'd be counting the
hours until my warranty ran out...)

I'm curious as to the internals of a Toyota Supra engine, as I've heard
the same thing about them (that they live perfectly happily with
completely ludicrous amounts of boost) but I have no experience with
them nor do I know how they hold up long term.

nate
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 23:48 GMT
<<snip>>

> I'm not aware of the need to use sleeves in either AMC or Studebaker
> builds...  I've been told by people who should know that those are the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to overbore a Stude engine, as you can literally wear out a boring bar
> before you get done with the job.

I think most any boring machine would use a replaceable tip such as
tungsten carbide or some other popular cutting material. At any rate a
sleeve is always a better way to go, particularly (from a heat transfer
standpoint) a wet liner. I am no fan of dry liners because experience
with dry linered 71 series Detroits shows "most people" will not take
the time to get the clearances right and heat transfer suffers. Both
sleeve and block suffer.

There are modern bore and ring materials combinations that are easy to
do with liners but impossible in a cast block and that's another big
incentive to go linered.

> Of course, neither the Stude nor the Rambler/AMC was manufactured in
> anything approaching the numbers of any of the Big Three, so apparently
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> completely ludicrous amounts of boost) but I have no experience with
> them nor do I know how they hold up long term.

The old Supra/Cressida/LC DOHC six in the old Eighties ones was hell
for stout, but it weighed as much as a small block Chevy or Ford for
something like 180 CID. So it should have been overdesigned on the
lower end. I have no idea whether they are cheaply available from the
rice importers. I know getting diesels is like pulling teeth because
the Phillipines and South Americans buy all the yards can supply. If
you want a used Isuzu, Mits or Nissan diesel you buy a non-automotive
core and convert it over.

Most of those Supras, and the Celicas that were the same car firewall
aft, are dead of rust now. Their popularity with Oriental punk gang
members hasn't helped their desirability either-like the gay
hairdressers that bought Citroen SMs and rural retards fixated on
certain GM two-doors.

On the street or in the water or the air, there is no CID limitation
and we don't tax by displacement in the US. So although you may have
the satisfaction of being able to say you have the highest specific
output, you are not getting any advantage over more displacement. A
reliable engine that has a good displacement to weight ratio and is
compact has a lot going for it, something a lot of European engines do
not-they are small displacement because they traditionally taxed
vehicles on engine size, leading to such ridiculous things as the 700
lb DOHC Jag sixes made in 2.6 or some laughable size.
N8N - 17 Nov 2005 12:44 GMT
> <<snip>>
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> do with liners but impossible in a cast block and that's another big
> incentive to go linered.

So why is it that liners are never used in iron blocks, and the use of
Nikasil unlinered aluminum blocks is still commonplace?

You'd have to have a hell of a liner to wet sleeve a Stude engine,
anyway.  The bore thickness on a good casting can be up to .250" (yes,
you read that right) which is probably part of the reason they're so
good for boost.

Or, I suppose, you could happily punch out the bore size and get some
more displacement, assuming you could find suitable pistons.  Which
would not be all bad.

nate
Chas Hurst - 17 Nov 2005 14:33 GMT
> > <<snip>>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> So why is it that liners are never used in iron blocks, and the use of
> Nikasil unlinered aluminum blocks is still commonplace?

Liners are used in iron blocks. Mercedes diesels have them, there's probably
others.

> You'd have to have a hell of a liner to wet sleeve a Stude engine,
> anyway.  The bore thickness on a good casting can be up to .250" (yes,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> nate
Bret Ludwig - 18 Nov 2005 19:12 GMT
<<snip>>

> > So why is it that liners are never used in iron blocks, and the use of
> > Nikasil unlinered aluminum blocks is still commonplace?
>
> Liners are used in iron blocks. Mercedes diesels have them, there's probably
> others.

Yes, all big diesels like Cummins, Mack and Cat. But domestic car
engines no. In Europe it's almost universal.
Misterbeets - 20 Nov 2005 04:32 GMT
That most misunderstood of cars, the Renault Alliance, had liners.
rantonrave@mail.com - 21 Nov 2005 08:02 GMT
> That most misunderstood of cars, the Renault Alliance, had liners.

I had the 1.4L as a company car.  0-60 in 20 seconds with the automatic
but very smooth ride.  The transmission failed at 50K miles (sounded
like a bearing), and:

     AAMCO
     8825 N. Black Canyon Highway
     Phoenix, AZ  85021
     (602) 997-6289

couldn't get it to run more than a few hundred miles between
breakdowns.  They also filled the floor with orange peels, mangled the
electrical cable (computer controlled), and ruined the engine by not
filling the radiator.  I couldn't understand how a shop that claimed to
have plenty of experience with this particular transmission could do
such a bad job.  Nor could I understand why such an experienced shop
would visit an Renault/AMC dealer after they had my car to obtain
photocopies of the transmission manual.  That dealer later rebuilt the
engine and replaced the transmission (they said it was ruined inside,
and silicone RTV was in the valve body).  By the way, I didn't choose
AAMCO, but my manager at the time insisted on them rather than the
dealer.  I think he was later arrested for bribing a state official.
Steve - 16 Nov 2005 16:59 GMT
> Chevy did cheese in using the two bolt main bearing caps in lower rated
> versions,

They cheesed with a weak lower end design that NEEDED 4-bolt mains.

> than the factory four bolt setup. At any rate, Chevy (and Mopar) blocks
> have always been of generally lesser metallurgy than Ford blocks-but
> Ford then ruins the "advantage" by paper thin castings incapable of
> rebore.

I beg to differ. I think you'll find that well into the 90s, Mopar Ford
and Oldsmobile (OK, they only kept building the Olds v8 barely into the
90s) block metals were the hardest of any, Chevrolet by far the softest.
Steve - 16 Nov 2005 16:48 GMT
>>>In the United States the small block Chevy and its variants are the
>>>cheapest to buy parts for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> blueprinted, balanced SBC built out of "good guy" components would last
> as long as any gas engine in its displacement and weight class.

I was just talking to my machinist about engines the other day (he'd
just finished up my newest 440 short block). He was commenting that my
brand new cam was bent .002" and that he'd straightened it. I said that
I was afraid that Mopar Performance was going in the pooper. He laughed
and said, ".002 is NOTHING. You should see some of the Chevy stuff I
have to fix before I can build the engine. Its actually better now than
it used to be, the 'good' Bowtie blocks used to have things like lifter
bores out of line so bad that individual cylinder valve timing would
vary by up to 4 degrees, cylinder to cylinder. We used to degree *every*
cylinder and then take an average to use that for the final cam setting.
Or with roller cams, you could buy a box full of lifters with varying
offsets on the rollers to degree in each lifter bore- it took FOREVER to
set up one of those pieces of <expletive deleted.>" He went on longer.
He's not a Mopar specialist, either and in fact most of his volume these
days is building Honda engines. But Mopar is his favorite and he's quite
prepared to give factual defenses for that opinion.

I have yet to find ANYTHING about Chevy engineering that is on a par
with other GM divisions (Olds, Buick, and Caddy in particular, or the
Northstar today), let alone compared to Ford and Mopar. The biggest
shortcomings of the smallblock are the little lifter bores that limit
valve lift rate, the short rods that give it a rod ratio worse than some
ultra long-stroke engines like the 225 slant 6, tiny bearings, and the
goofy stud-mounted rockers/pushrod oiling setup (which was sadly adopted
by Mopar on the '92-up Magnum 5.2 and 5.9, but at least with AMC-derived
parts including cylindrical pivots and not the directionless ball pivots
that caused pushrods to need guides rubbing against them all the time).
Bret Ludwig - 17 Nov 2005 01:09 GMT
> I was just talking to my machinist about engines the other day (he'd
> just finished up my newest 440 short block). He was commenting that my
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> prepared to give factual defenses for that opinion.
>rubbing against them all the time).

When I worked at a plant with a lot of CNC equipment we had a guy who
rebuilt the Porsche 944 and 928 engines. He built-with a lathe and a
vertical mill-his own tooling, along with odds and ends from Sunnen.
He was forever going on about their superiority.

I always got a kick out of his answers when all the other car
guys-hard-bit blue collar types  -asked him how come if they were so
great all real race cars (drag and short track roundy-rounders to them)
used Chevys.
Steve - 17 Nov 2005 16:20 GMT
>>I was just talking to my machinist about engines the other day (he'd
>>just finished up my newest 440 short block). He was commenting that my
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> great all real race cars (drag and short track roundy-rounders to them)
> used Chevys.

Simple: cost and availability. I'd be stupid to deny that Chevy power is
the cheapest to build. As a friend of mine used to say, you can buy
Chevy pistons and rings in 5 sizes next to the cotton balls on the shelf
at Walgreen's. Slapping one together will result in an engine that will
run (after a fashion). The difference between slapping one together and
really blueprinting one is tens to a hundered horsepower for a drag
engine, though, and that's not trivial.

 But the original quesition was asked so that people would provide
their opinions on what was EASIEST to work on.
will350@eskimo.com - 17 Nov 2005 17:58 GMT
Been watching this thread with a humorus eye .
   They're all pretty easy when they're on a stand unless you have to
buy or fabricate "special tool #  blah-blah-blah" or
 perform some part of the operation during a certain phase of the moon
while standing on your left foot and stirring a bucket of chicken
entrails at the same time .
 Not too much more than a big metal puzzle .
   Servicablility and maintenance ............   Now THAT'S a real
PITA on most everything nowadays .   Will
Steve - 15 Nov 2005 03:18 GMT
> I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Cy

That's easy. Right now, Big-block Chrysler v8s are incredibly easy to
work on. Well, they always were, and flatheads were even easier, but the
 big Mopar v8s still have excellent parts availability and flatheads
don't. You can build a big mopar out of a catalog, for that matter.

Somes specific reasons:

1) Waterpump- 8 bolts (4 on the water pump, 4 on the fan). And you don't
even have to remove the A/C and alternator belts, OR the radiator. Just
unbolt the fan and move it forward, unbolt the water pump, and replace
it. And that's on any car that it came in from the factory, except maybe
the ultra-rare 440 A-bodies.

2) Distributor right up front (and electronic in everything after '72 so
you rarely need to service it anyway)

3) Lower block- Y-block design with a flat oil pan rail and flat oil pan
gasket- easy to put together with no oil leaks.

4) No coolant in the intake manifold- change manifolds without draining
coolant.

4a) one-piece intake manifold gasket/valley pan gasket. None of those
goofbag "end pieces" that you find on smallblocks and that leak like
sieves unless you hold your tongue just right while assembling...

5) Oil pump- located on the left front of the block. You can change the
oil pump without dropping the pan. You can also change the oil pressure
regulator spring in most cars without removing the oil pump from the block.

6) oil filter accessibility- right up front on the lower driver's side.
Don't have to shinny under the car far, nor reach up past suspension
components and obstructions.

7) So damn tough you rarely have to do any of the above anyway :-)
cfoughty@gmail.com - 15 Nov 2005 17:41 GMT
Thanks Steve,

That's the kind of answer I like: facts to back up your opinion.

I had no idea that the mopar engines were like that. The only thing
that I ever fixed on Chryslers were that damn starter. More of those
starters went out than I can count.

What about any chrysler four cylinder engines?

Ever work on some Honda, Toyota, or Subaru engines?
Daniel J. Stern - 15 Nov 2005 18:18 GMT
> I had no idea that the mopar engines were like that. The only thing that
> I ever fixed on Chryslers were that damn starter. More of those starters
> went out than I can count.

Those starters were a very good design. They lasted a very long
time...UNTIL they were "remanufactured". Then they died early and often.

> What about any chrysler four cylinder engines?

2.2 and 2.5 as found in K- and L-cars and derivatives from 1981 through
1995. Very slant-sixlike.

> Ever work on some Honda, Toyota, or Subaru engines?

Yes, it's why I drive Mopars.
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 23:10 GMT
<<snip>>

> > Ever work on some Honda, Toyota, or Subaru engines?
>
> Yes, it's why I drive Mopars.

Many Toyota engines are hell for stout and simple, as are the pushrod
Subarus.

One advantage to many Japanese engines is they can be had very
reasonably used with low miles from Japanese pulls. Cars are parted out
or deported in Japan young because of an inspection law designed to
keep old cars off the road.

Honda engines are a mixed bag because though they are reliable they
are apparently difficult to work on internally. Most are electronic
now, as are everyone else's and a carb and distributor is not an option
on most, unlike Toys where even relatively recent ones have that option
if you can find it-there is a distributor with advance mechanism
available so you can run without an ECM. Also, they turn the wrong way,
at least many of them, which would be OK for a Corvair or Citroen swap,
but kills any other idea.

BEcause of their light weight you would think they would be OK for
experimental aviation. Apparently not-the Subaru and Suzuki-Geo engines
are used there but not the Honda. Go figure.
C. E. White - 15 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT
>> What about any chrysler four cylinder engines?
>
> 2.2 and 2.5 as found in K- and L-cars and derivatives from 1981 through
> 1995. Very slant-sixlike.

Definitely a nice engine. Unfortunately the rest of the car did not measure
up. I think the engine was the only thing in my K-car that did not need to
be fixed under warranty (well unless you include the auxiliary drive belts
as part of the engine). Too bad Chrysler can't seem to put two parts
together without something rattling. It is still the only new car I kept
less than a year. At least the dealership mechanics were good at their
jobs - but then they had a lot of practice. I never had to have the same
thing fixed twice which I guess counts for something. I wish I could have
said the same thing about the last Toyota I owned.

Ed
Bret Ludwig - 16 Nov 2005 01:16 GMT
> >> What about any chrysler four cylinder engines?
> >
> > 2.2 and 2.5 as found in K- and L-cars and derivatives from 1981 through
> > 1995. Very slant-sixlike.
>
> Definitely a nice engine.

As I remember it was overhead cam and looked nothing like a Slant 6. A
few were RWD for Dakota trucks, but that was an underpowered
configuration and I think any such truck made is now a street truck
with a 318 or bigger.

The old Dakota would have been a really good work truck-bigger than a
Ranger or S10, smaller than full size- if a diesel had been available.
Real trucks to me just don't have spark plugs.
Steve - 16 Nov 2005 17:04 GMT
>>>>What about any chrysler four cylinder engines?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>  As I remember it was overhead cam and looked nothing like a Slant 6.

Who said anything about what it "looks" like? Looks are deceiving. It
shared the same principal engineer as the slant-6, and that counts for a
lot more than appearance.

> few were RWD for Dakota trucks, but that was an underpowered
> configuration and I think any such truck made is now a street truck
> with a 318 or bigger.

No, the base engine in the Dakota is now a 3.7L SOHC v6.
Steve - 16 Nov 2005 16:38 GMT
> What about any chrysler four cylinder engines?

I've never owned one, but I hear the 2.2/2.5 are about like the old
big-blocks in ease of service (except for the timing belt).

> Ever work on some Honda, Toyota, or Subaru engines?

A Mazda 4-cylinder put me off Japanese engines forever :-p  But the
worst have to be some of the GMs I've worked on. Chevy 2.0 in a
Cavalier- Couldn't change the oil filter without taking the skin of the
back of my hand, just adjusting the tension on the A/C belt was a
nightmare, etc.  Cadillac HT4100 took the cake, though: you had to have
a puller to remove the PS pulley so you could get to the bolts that hold
the PS pump onto the engine. If they'd just used a SPOKED pulley, it
would have been no problem, but NOOOOOO. As people have said, a
garden-variety Chevy 350 is a lot easier, but its still dripping with
little bits of GM silliness that make it harder than other to deal with
(the guy that decided starters that need shimming are acceptable should
be slowly tortured).
Steve W. - 15 Nov 2005 06:10 GMT
> I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Cy

235/250/262 Straight six stuck under the hood of just about any GM
product. In the cars you just lean inside. On the P/Us you can sit under
the hood on the inner fender.

Second choice is the Ford 300 Straight six. Mainly for the same reasons
as the GM.
Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY& - 15 Nov 2005 19:49 GMT
>>I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
>>criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

The Ford 300 CI 6 in its later derivations with MPI is a pain if you
want to remove the valve cover. The whole intake manifold has to come
off, but then again I drove my '93 F-150 over 180,000 miles without
having to remove the valve cover, and it ran well and didn't leak when I
sold it recently (can't say that much about the chassis though). I
pretty much picked right up where I left off by buying a '94 F-150 with
184,000 miles put on it by a little old lady running a landscape
business, which  was in nice shape and had 4WD, which my '93 lacked.
Despite the miles, she had taken immaculate care of it, and it looked
and ran like new. Looking through the service records and talking to her
mechanic, I found a number of repairs in common with my '93, such as
rusty brake lines, gas tanks, leaky pan gaskets, etc, but no work done
on either the head or injectors, with the exception of the spray in the
manifold fuel injector cleaner.

Another pain is servicing the water pump. Rather than bolting the fan
clutch to the water pump pulley, they use a screw on hub that requires
special tools to disassemble it.

Thanks Ford!!
C. E. White - 16 Nov 2005 00:03 GMT
> Another pain is servicing the water pump. Rather than bolting the fan
> clutch to the water pump pulley, they use a screw on hub that requires
> special tools to disassemble it.

You mean like a big adjustable wrench and a hammer? I actually have a set of
the tools (which are not just for Fords), but the my favorite local shop
just uses a big adjustable wrench. Sometimes they have to hit the end of the
wrench with a hammer to break the hub loose (just be sure not to go the
wrong way!).

I have a 1992 F150 with the 300 inch six. In 14 years, I've never touched
the engine except to change the oil, and plugs (once). It does need new plug
wires. I'll try to get around to it in the next few years. Unlike other
Fords I've owned, it hasn't even needed the throttle body or IAC cleaned.

Ed
Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY& - 16 Nov 2005 00:52 GMT
>>Another pain is servicing the water pump. Rather than bolting the fan
>>clutch to the water pump pulley, they use a screw on hub that requires
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Ed

I did the water pump once, and probably could have put it off since the
shaft was only slightly loose, but not leaking. Luckily, I have an old
country mechanic nearby who can help me over those humps, but he is
getting into the Social Security age bracket, and is slowing down his
business. He spends as much time shooting the bull with his customers as
working, but he is competent and honest with his work, so I can't
complain too much. His $80 tool was basically a big spanner wrench. I
will have to see how big an adjustable I will need. I brought a larger
one since I did the water pump, but I think it is still too small. I
will cross that bridge when I come to it.
MasterBlaster - 15 Nov 2005 13:30 GMT
<cfoughty@gmail.com> wrote

> I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:

Any engine?
How about a single-cylinder 2-stroke motorcycle engine?
Only 3 moving parts.  :)
Masospaghetti - 15 Nov 2005 19:47 GMT
> <cfoughty@gmail.com> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> How about a single-cylinder 2-stroke motorcycle engine?
> Only 3 moving parts.  :)

I'll second that!
Daniel J. Stern - 15 Nov 2005 17:26 GMT
Chrysler Corp. slant-6 engine, 1960 through 1987.
Brian - 15 Nov 2005 19:03 GMT
Austin A-series, hands down.  The simplest car engine I have ever worked on,
and I've gotten 50 mpg out of one.  I've also seen one pass a Mustang GT-350
on the outside of Turn 2 at Mosport (of course it had a little help from the
Cooper S it was installed in).

Brian
>I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Cy
Alex Rodriguez - 15 Nov 2005 19:52 GMT
Chrysler 2.2 4 cylinder engine.  With no AC and no turbo, they are very easy to
work on and reliable.  With AC and Turbo, they get a little crowded under the
hood, but not unreasonable.  
--------------
Alex
Bret Ludwig - 15 Nov 2005 20:04 GMT
Though not strictly a car engine (they will go into pickups and
Blazer/Ramcharger types) the "Screamin' Jimmy" two cycle Detroit Diesel
has a lot to recommend it. Mechanical versions are that, wholly
mechanical, no electrics needed to run. they are fundamentally simple
and do not have the high pressure pumps, lines, and other external
paraphernalia that scares a lot of people off diesels. Almost all do
not even have glow plugs or intake heater systems.

They are loud, very heavy, and by modern diesel standards a little
thirsty. And they do require some special tooling. But I guarantee you
will never have ignition, carb or intake valve problems!

Brand loyalists will note they were developed by GM, used heavily by
Ford, and now a part of DaimlerChrysler.
Steve - 16 Nov 2005 16:55 GMT
>  Though not strictly a car engine (they will go into pickups and
> Blazer/Ramcharger types) the "Screamin' Jimmy" two cycle Detroit Diesel
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> paraphernalia that scares a lot of people off diesels. Almost all do
> not even have glow plugs or intake heater systems.

Neither does a Cummins, Cat, Mack, or Perkins of similar vintage, Bret.
And on top of that, the Cummins, Macks, Cats, and Perkins don't have
superchargers, ridiculous gearcases for the supercharger and accessory
drives, coolant leaks like sieves at the cylinder/block seal, and don't
burn their own lubricating oil almost as fast as they suck down diesel :-p

Yes, the Detroits (and their "General Motors Diesel" predecessors, all
derived from the same basic Winton Engine architecture as EMD 2-stroke
locomotive engines) have had a long and productive life. But they were
sortof the "cheap and common" engines, never the best available.

Steve (who was once plunged into total darkness at 3 AM on a research
vessel in 14' seas and 40-kt winds by a Detroit Diesel 6-71 failure...
and won't soon forget it either! :-)
aarcuda69062 - 16 Nov 2005 18:02 GMT
> Neither does a Cummins, Cat, Mack, or Perkins of similar vintage, Bret.
> And on top of that, the Cummins, Macks, Cats, and Perkins don't have
> superchargers, ridiculous gearcases for the supercharger and accessory
> drives, coolant leaks like sieves at the cylinder/block seal, and don't
> burn their own lubricating oil almost as fast as they suck down diesel :-p

Yeah, but are the Cummins, cat Mack and Perkins of similar
vintage as easy to get running backwards as the Detroit?
Bret Ludwig - 17 Nov 2005 00:26 GMT
> > Neither does a Cummins, Cat, Mack, or Perkins of similar vintage, Bret.
> > And on top of that, the Cummins, Macks, Cats, and Perkins don't have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Yeah, but are the Cummins, cat Mack and Perkins of similar
> vintage as easy to get running backwards as the Detroit?

Do you mean "running backwards" as in proper reverse rotation
operation, or running backwards as in the accidental backwards
operation, taking air in the exhaust pipe and exhausting out the intake
and usually catching it on fire?

Detroits can be set up for L or R rotation. There are some parts that
need swapping depending on what side the head faces, which side the
blower faces and even which end is the flywheel at. But same block,
heads, crank, different gears, cam and balance shaft. They are very
versatile, at least the inlines, but you need to figure out what parts
you need.

Most other diesels are much more difficult to swap over if reverse
rotation is even possible. But most four cycle diesels WILL run
"backwards" after a fashion, often by accident, and it's a horrid
thing. Smoke biillows out the air cleaner and a  colossal mess results,
at best. If not stopped in a very short while, of course, the engine
seizes as the oil pump is turning wrong way. Detroits are unlikely to
do this as the blower goes the wrong way as well and the engine does
not start.

As far as Detroits being particularly cheap and nasty, they were  the
choice of union fleets because they were very difficult for the stupid
or disgruntled driver to tear up. They were also popular as repower for
fire engines because full power operation from cold was far less
damaging to them than to Caterpillars or Cumminses.
aarcuda69062 - 17 Nov 2005 09:47 GMT
In article
<1132187219.487920.316710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

> > Yeah, but are the Cummins, cat Mack and Perkins of similar
> > vintage as easy to get running backwards as the Detroit?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> operation, taking air in the exhaust pipe and exhausting out the intake
> and usually catching it on fire?

Accidental backwards from lugging.
pakeha@not.a.real.address.com - 18 Nov 2005 01:16 GMT
> As far as Detroits being particularly cheap and nasty, they were  the
>choice of union fleets because they were very difficult for the stupid
>or disgruntled driver to tear up.

It's not that hard to tear up a Detroit, try shifting to 3rd instead
of 5th while going downhill.  I have seen the damage that will
do...  But it's an easy fix, replace the assembly...

SteveL
markansas859 - 17 Nov 2005 05:27 GMT
> Chrysler 2.2 4 cylinder engine.  With no AC and no turbo, they are very
> easy to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> --------------
> Alex

reliable???

<SNORT!!>

you obviously never drove my 1985 Plymouth Reliant, built in Mexico, and
tossed back at the dealership, and Chrysler Credit as a lemon after 16
months.

3 carburetors
all emissions parts replaced at least once
front discs on brakes recalled because of insufficient castings

the 1986 Aries wagon I owned from May to September this year, with a 2.5 L
Fuel injected engine, and 80,000 miles on it ran better.....
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 18 Nov 2005 01:06 GMT
Various Briggs & Stratton engines are pretty easy to repair.

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Have a pleasant Terran revolution.

Joe Brophy - 19 Nov 2005 11:12 GMT
>I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
>criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Cy

My vote would go to the mazda rotary 13b and above engines.  Small, powerful, reliable,
few moving parts, even fewer adjustments.  In the RX-7 there is ample room to get to
anything since it is so much smaller than a conventional piston engine.  I guess not too
many people work on rotaries.

Joe Brophy
CountryTech Computer
email: pcfixr@spiretech.com
John S. - 19 Nov 2005 17:38 GMT
> I would like to have your opinions on this subject. The following
> criteria should be taken into consideration regarding your answer:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks,

That's a wide range of dates.

Most small four cylinder automotive engines that were pre-emissions and
electric rather than electronic controlled were easy to work on.  A
1959 Morris Minor 1000 engine was unbelievably easy to perform any work
on and to remove for a complete rebuild.
 
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