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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2005Starter or ignition issue??
Hi, thanks for taking the time to read my post. We have a 1993 Ford Aerostar Minivan. The following has happened recently: While I drove it: Out running errands, so several stop and start times, it would fail to start at some point. Other than the initial "click" (once) from the solenoid, nothing would happen. No cranking, turning over.... nothing. I had power to accessories, so I don't believe it's the battery. After letting it sit for a short time (and sometimes messing with connections under the hood, but I never found anything loose) it would finally start. Any ideas?? While husband drove it: It died at an intersection. Hubby said it acted like it just stopped getting enough gas. It would crank over, but not start. After waiting (and cursing, says hubby!) it would finally start. Any suggestions at all would be greatly appreciated! Could we be looking at 2 separate issues, or are they connected somehow? What happens for me has not happened for hubby, and vice versa. Thank you so much in advance! Nan > Hi, thanks for taking the time to read my post. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Nan A couple of things here...... one... check the battery terminals (where the positive and negative connect to the battery)... Make sure there is no corrosion...even if there doesn't look like any, clean them with a wire brush along with the battery posts. The van is a 93.. .you don't say whether or not yo have changed the battery recently or not, but thats one area to look at.....this may help it not to die out on you.... Secondly, as far as the van not starting up intermittently, when it doesn't want to start, take a hammer (I am not kidding) and lightly tap or rap the starter.... not too hard as a slight one might work... after that, go back and try to start it... if it still does not start... try tapping the starter a little harder and go back and try to start it.... if you can get it to start after lightly tapping on the starter, then you will be needing a starter, or if your husband is mechanically inclined, he can rebuild the one you have, although the price for a new one may not be that much different after you factor in his time to rebuild it.... I have had this problem myself on an older (63 galaxy), a newer (95 tracker), and a 97 caravan. The tapping on the starter got me by temporarily until I could fix or replace the starter. the caravan also had a similar problem with the battery terminals with dieing out, but with mine, I found that on the caravan, it has a second positive wire going to the fuse box and that conection was practically corroded off the terminal, so I ended up replacing it with another cable and that problem went away.... oh.. if the terminal turns out good... then you more than likely have a different issue.... Here are a few things to keep in mind when the car dies out.... is it wet or humid out? When you turn the ignition key, do yo ualways hear a noise from the rear of the vehicle? (this would be the fuel pump activating)... if not, then this may be your culprit as well... I had an 89 caravan that when the fuel pump was acting up, it would die at any time while taking a turn.... most times i'd wait a few minutes and it would start up again.... until finally it never did and had to have it towed... so that may also be the cause of what you are experiencing.... if it does not start back up while wet or humid out, I would recommend changing the distributor cap and/or wires if it also runs rough....and if you are gonna replace these parts, it may also be wise to just tune it up at the same time.... you don't mention how long its been since it had a tune up.... good luck and keep us posted!! Fwed > A couple of things here...... one... check the battery terminals (where >the positive and negative connect to the battery)... Make sure there is no >corrosion...even if there doesn't look like any, clean them with a wire >brush along with the battery posts. The van is a 93.. .you don't say >whether or not yo have changed the battery recently or not, but thats one >area to look at.....this may help it not to die out on you.... The battery posts are corroded on the tops of them so he's going to remove the cables and clean everything this afternoon. > Secondly, as far as the van not starting up intermittently, when it >doesn't want to start, take a hammer (I am not kidding) and lightly tap or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >you have, although the price for a new one may not be that much different >after you factor in his time to rebuild it.... When it wouldn't start at the gas station yesterday, someone recommended that to me as well. I asked if he could help me locate the starter. It's not very accessible from the top, though. My hubby isn't mechanical beyond being able to replace brake pads and real basic maintenance, so we will just have to purchase a starter, if that's what it is. > I have had this problem myself on an older (63 galaxy), a newer (95 >tracker), and a 97 caravan. The tapping on the starter got me by [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >up again.... until finally it never did and had to have it towed... so that >may also be the cause of what you are experiencing.... Yes, I can hear the fuel pump activate when I turn the key, although hubby can't recall if he did when it wouldn't start for him at the library this morning. >if it does not start >back up while wet or humid out, I would recommend changing the distributor >cap and/or wires if it also runs rough....and if you are gonna replace these >parts, it may also be wise to just tune it up at the same time.... you don't >mention how long its been since it had a tune up.... He's thought of the distributor cap or plug wires, as well. It has only happened since we've gotten snowfall. We've had the van for a couple of months and have been doing maintenance on it as time and money allow. We bought it for $200, so we knew it would need to have some work, although it's been a decent vehicle in spite of these issues. >good luck and keep us posted!! Thank you very much for responding Fwed, you've been very helpful. Nan >> A couple of things here...... one... check the battery terminals >> (where [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > Nan Sounds like you're on your way to getting your problem solved!! The tapping on the starter is only temporary until you can have it replaced.... if it works (the tapping) the starter will need replacing.... and soon... what happens is there is a "dead" spot that it rests at after you'v estarted the car.... sometimes you get lucky and it comes at rest in the good area....parts inside are worn and just need replacing....in fact a starter may not be as much money for your model van. The starter is usually located underneath the vehicle... and since you've been getting snow, it might get messy trying to get under your van.....although you may be able to reach it from under the hood.... on the tracker, they put it in a very tight place and made it nearly impossible for me to get at it.... I decided to take it in and have someone do it for me. One way to tell if your van is dieing out because of moisture is to start the vehicle up, let it run for a few minutes.... and take a spray bottle of water and spray the distributor cap lightly.... if it starts idling roughly, then its definitely wherever you mist the water.... Fwed > One way to tell if your van is dieing out because of moisture is to >start the vehicle up, let it run for a few minutes.... and take a spray >bottle of water and spray the distributor cap lightly.... if it starts >idling roughly, then its definitely wherever you mist the water.... I wouldn't have thought of that.... thanks for the idea! Nan >> One way to tell if your van is dieing out because of moisture is to >>start the vehicle up, let it run for a few minutes.... and take a spray [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nan That was/is a little trick a buddy of mine showed me when the tracker we have didn't at times have much power. I told him it almost sounded like it was running on one less cylinder, so he thought maybe it wasn't getting a spark.... so he told me what i needed to do.....sure enough, it was one of the wires, and get this...when I went to replace the set, two of the old wires pretty much came apart at the spark plug when I took them out. (They have the long plastic piece at the end to reach down into the head). the tracker ran much better after I replaced the wires.... Fwed > That was/is a little trick a buddy of mine showed me when the tracker we >have didn't at times have much power. I told him it almost sounded like it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >have the long plastic piece at the end to reach down into the head). the >tracker ran much better after I replaced the wires.... Well, it was definitely the starter. At the dentist office today it wouldn't start for me, but I tapped on the starter with a broom handle and it started. So, off to the mechanic and I now have a car that starts *every* time! Woohoo! The mechanic said the issue hubby had could be the battery, so we'll be replacing that before it gets too cold. Thanks for everyone's help :-) Nan >> That was/is a little trick a buddy of mine showed me when the tracker >> we [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Nan Actually, how old IS the battery anyway?? If its 4 years or more.... then i would say yuh.. its time.... Fwed > Actually, how old IS the battery anyway?? If its 4 years or more.... >then i would say yuh.. its time.... I'm not sure when this battery was installed, but the manufacture date on it says 09/2002. So it's been 3 years since it was manufactured and perhaps less than that that it's been in service. Nan >> Actually, how old IS the battery anyway?? If its 4 years or more.... >>then i would say yuh.. its time.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nan Well, if you have a battery charger, then I suppose it wouldn't hurt to give it a charge. then if a week later you find it is showing signs similar to now, it probably isn't holding a charge very well and suspect either the battery won't hold a charge, or possibly an alternator problem. Test the battery first.... the best way would be with an ohm meter..... but you can also test it with one of those thingys that look like a turkey baster with little color balls in it. Actually, I am willing to bet if you haven't looked at the battery at all, you might even find that once you open up the caps, you will see a couple of cells that aren't covered. Unless of course it is a sealed battery. You can also take it to sears to have it tested, or maybe auto zone will as well.... Fwed It can still be the battery. Even a partially discharged battery will put out close to 12 volts if the load is not too great. Thus it will work lower powered accessories fine. The starter is the heaviest load you can put on a battery. That will draw the voltage down to less than needed to turn the starter over. Try the horn. The horn is an intermediate level load. The sound will change sometimes with less than full voltage. Better yet, turn on the lights, then try the horn. Does it sound flakey- then battery is bad. Turning over a warm engine is sometimes a heavier load than turning over a cold one- heat expands pistons and rings to give better compression. What you really need to do is, get it started and take it to a shop that knows batteries, and have the battery tested with a load made for battery testing. > Hi, thanks for taking the time to read my post. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Nan A weak batery will usually cause a chattering sound from the solenoid. As the solenoid closes, the starter draws so much current that the battery voltage drops far enough that the solenoid coil can't hold it closed and it releases, upon which the voltage recovers and closes the solenoid again. It happens rather quickly, and the result is the chattering rattle. Many start problems are due to worn-out solenoids, especialy in vehicles started frequently. There are big, heavy contacts in the solenoid and they burn a bit every time they open, and soon the resistance is too high to spin the starter. Put a voltmeter across the big solenoid terminals, and see what it reads when you try to crank the engine. It should read under half a volt. More means the internal resistance is too high. Dan > A weak batery will usually cause a chattering sound from the >solenoid. As the solenoid closes, the starter draws so much current [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Dan Thanks Dan. We'll be trying everyone's suggestions :-) Nan > A weak batery will usually cause a chattering sound from the > solenoid. As the solenoid closes, the starter draws so much current > that the battery voltage drops far enough that the solenoid coil can't > hold it closed and it releases, upon which the voltage recovers and > closes the solenoid again. It happens rather quickly, and the result is > the chattering rattle. There certainly IS a range of battery charge state where the solenoid will chatter. However, outside of that range, the battery may still not have enough charge to turn over the engine, but the solenoid or relay may not chatter. I have had more cases when the relay would just click than ones where it chatters. >> A weak batery will usually cause a chattering sound from the >> solenoid. As the solenoid closes, the starter draws so much current [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >may not chatter. I have had more cases when the relay would just click >than ones where it chatters. Is it possible to take the solenoid apart to burnish the electrical relay contacts? I've done that with a clothes dryer relay to restore proper operation after the motor stopped intermittently during the drying cycle. The contacts were charred, and a light swiping with a file cleaned them up and restored operation. Although, putting the relay back together in that cramped space was a bugger, and took about 1 hour. Lg >>> A weak batery will usually cause a chattering sound from the >>> solenoid. As the solenoid closes, the starter draws so much current [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Lg It is possible, but filing it too much will cause it not to work as well....there is only so much you can reduce the length of it by before it becomes no good... Fwed >> Is it possible to take the solenoid apart to burnish the electrical >> relay contacts? I've done that with a clothes dryer relay to restore [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Fwed I think eventually the *points* of the relay, the business part of them, will burn away. I filed mine down to where -most- of the pitting and carbonized metal was removed. This means, the remaining points thickness is smaller than original, and a replacement relay should be on my purchasing list. Then again, it took over 15 years of everyday use for the points to get burned that much. It is possible I can get another 10 years out of this unit without replacing the relay. So, the *issue* is whether or not the case of the solenoid points are crimped shut by a metal smooshing machine, or if it can be disassembled enough to clean the contacts. All in all, I think in the case of the automobile, if they new solenoid doesn't cost too much, I would put in a OEM NIB. Then again, some parts are so expensive and/or hard to get... Last time I did this kind of thing, I just brought in the combo starter motor and solenoid as one unit, and exchanged for a reman. Bolted it up in place, attached the wires, and problem was solved. Of course this leaves just one little problem. IF YOU ONLY HAVE 1 CAR, then you are going to have to pay a *core fee* which is refunded when you bring back your spent module. Lg >>> Is it possible to take the solenoid apart to burnish the electrical >>> relay contacts? I've done that with a clothes dryer relay to restore [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Lg Also, if you are going to take it to the point of taking it apart and cleaning off those little things, buying replacement parts wouldn't be that much money and since it is already apart, all you would have to do is replace the worn ones!! Then you probably wouldn't have to worry about it ever again because they would probably last longer than you will own the car.... Fwed >>>> Is it possible to take the solenoid apart to burnish the electrical >>>> relay contacts? I've done that with a clothes dryer relay to restore [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > >Fwed IF the components are available separately in a kit !!! Some of the parts I buy today for this and that only come from the ware house as *assemblies.* Even though for a couple of pennies or less I could fix the gizmo by replacing the broken spring or worn contacts, these sub-parts are not sold separately. I have to buy the entire module. I have gone through this experience so many times with this and that. I have so many gasoline engines in my garage ( 2 cycle and 4 stroke ) that I can't count them all [ landscaping machines ]. In one case, I only need the little needle that goes into the carburetor float bowl to block the fuel line when the bowl is full. 1 little metal rod, 1 tiny spring. If I don't have this, the float bowl overflows fuel. Well, I don't have it. I lost it when I was doing a rebuild/cleanout. So now, what do I do. Buy an entire new carb? For a 25 year old POS ? No, I start the machine, open the fuel line valve, run it at full speed, and turn it off with the fuel valve ;-\ I could build the part? maybe. I'm too lazy. I could scavenge it from a junk yard? dubious. There aren't too many junk yards for 25 year old snow throwers. Buy a new carb at the dealer? throwing good money after bad. In the name of expediency and turning a fast buck, things are *modules* these days, and to replace that 5 penny part the store wants you to buy the $100 module. In most instances they get away with this ruse. And the customer is screwed to the wall, having no other resources except his own machine shop, which most people do not have, where they can fabricate their own parts. We do the best we can with what we have. In some instances it works. Like my $0 investment in a new dryer relay. In other cases, we get *the works* at the cash register. Since selling 5 penny parts to customers is not a profit-generating activity, expect to see more *modules: no serviceable parts inside* in the future. Of course, in a car where life/death depends on electrical and mechanical integrity, one experiments at one's own risk. But polishing a set of points on a starter isn't life and death. Screwing with ABS could be, for the unwashed masses ( including myself ). WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT...without starting a new thread... I have an Everstart 75Ah 1000 minute reserve capacity 24DC-6 Deep Cycle Marine trolling batter, NEW, with 405 CCA. I am wondering if it is OK to put this in my 2003 Merc Sable. Measured current from starter motor is 230.9 amperes DC. Is it OK for me to yank OEM battery and put this in? The measured dimensions of the cases seem to be the same, if not 1/8th inch one way or the other. What do you think? Lg >>>>> Is it possible to take the solenoid apart to burnish the electrical >>>>> relay contacts? I've done that with a clothes dryer relay to restore [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > > Lg I hear ya on the small parts only coming in kits.... its rare that I will take tings apart to rebuild.... usually I will replace the whole unit, unless I am gien the option of buying a kit... then I would think of the time and even if I have the time to rebuild rather than just replace....Id say i give about half of the work i do on cars to a mechanic... depending on if i have the time and/or the money.... As far as the battery, I would check to make sure they are rated the same.....my guess is as long as the voltage is the same, but I am no expert on batteries....I will have to bow out on this one as I just don't know... Fwed >It can still be the battery. Even a partially discharged battery will >put out close to 12 volts if the load is not too great. Thus it will [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >knows batteries, and have the battery tested with a load made for >battery testing. Thanks for your advice, Don. We'll try this, too. We've noticed the "door open" alarm sometimes doesn't ding. We're wondering if this is related or just a minor issue. Nan |
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