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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2005

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Can I replace an OEM starter battery with a Deep Cycle Marine battery?

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Lawrence Glickman - 29 Nov 2005 04:25 GMT
I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.

Everstart deep cycle Marine battery
deep cycle trolling
is 74 amp hours
100 minute reserve capacity
12 volt
model 24DC-6
about 40 pounds of weight
dimensions same as OEM +/- fractions of an inch.

Although this battery is designed to be RUN DOWN to about 50%
discharge before being recharged, can it be used as a replacement for
the OEM I have in their now?

OEM is a couple-few years old, and although it passes load test and
all, I would like to replace it with _something_ with terrible winter
coming.  Will this Marine battery work OK without damaging the
electrical system?  Thoughts?

Lg
HLS@nospam.nix - 29 Nov 2005 04:34 GMT
Here is a link I found, Lawrence
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Using%20a%20deep%20cycle%20
battery%20as%20a%20starting%20battery

You will have to cut the entire line and paste in your browser...Basically,
it says you can
use a deep cycle battery, but you should increase the capacity rating by
about 20%.
Lawrence Glickman - 29 Nov 2005 05:32 GMT
>Here is a link I found, Lawrence
>http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Using%20a%20deep%20cycle%20
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>use a deep cycle battery, but you should increase the capacity rating by
>about 20%.

Looks *promising* HLS.  Thanks Much for the link!

Lg
HLS@nospam.nix - 29 Nov 2005 15:58 GMT
> Looks *promising* HLS.  Thanks Much for the link!
>
> Lg

I have one in my John Deere, just because that is what the previous owner
put there.  I have no real complaint, except that when the unit stands
unused
for a couple of weeks, it may not have enough juice to start.

There doesnt seem to be any current leakage, so I would assume that this
battery is on its way out, or maybe that is just what you expect from deep
cycle units.

Of course, it is never so very cold here, but does drop well below freezing
from time to time.
Lawrence Glickman - 29 Nov 2005 23:15 GMT
>> Looks *promising* HLS.  Thanks Much for the link!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Of course, it is never so very cold here, but does drop well below freezing
>from time to time.

I did the experiment, and it worked fine.  What didn't work out was
the fact that the battery was too tall and I couldn't close the hood
all the way after installing it and changing the cable routing because
the original cables were too short to reach the terminals.

So now, the OEM battery is back in the car, and I have learned that
inches are at a premium under the hood of my car.  This deep cycle was
too tall, even after cutting off some auxiliary terminals with bolt
cutters.  So now the marine battery is back in rotation for my
computer UPS, and the OEM is back doing what it should.

Lessons learned?  I lost a 6mm socket under the hood, and think I
found it when I heard something whinging out of the engine compartment
during a short drive this morning ;-|

Also, while looking for that 6mm, I came across a lot of interesting
engine parts I hadn't inspected before.  But most of all, I learned
that there just isn't room in this engine bay for anything that is not
to OEM dimensions.  This car is build with tolerances that are so
tight, I was using paper towels under the hood to show me where the
contact points were when I was trying to close the engine cowl.

I think I lost the memory stored in the ECM/PCM, but am not giving
that a second thought.  In time, it will relearn what it needs to.

Lg
Hugo Schmeisser - 30 Nov 2005 02:15 GMT
> I did the experiment, and it worked fine.  What didn't work out was
> the fact that the battery was too tall and I couldn't close the hood
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So now, the OEM battery is back in the car, and I have learned that
> inches are at a premium under the hood of my car.

This seems to be the case with many vehicles. My own Honda has precisely
15/16" between the battery case top and the underside of the hood. How
do I know? One day I accidentally left a 1"-tall 12mm socket on the
battery and closed the hood. I ended up with a nice little pimple in
the sheet metal.
Lawrence Glickman - 30 Nov 2005 03:21 GMT
>> I did the experiment, and it worked fine.  What didn't work out was
>> the fact that the battery was too tall and I couldn't close the hood
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>battery and closed the hood. I ended up with a nice little pimple in
>the sheet metal.

It is _worse_ than that in the Sable.  There is ZERO CLEARANCE between
the left front edge of the battery case and the padding under the
hood.  Even with the OEM battery, there is an indentation in the
padding showing where it is compressed by the top corner of the OEM
battery!

Now I know why Ford puts a protective plastic cap over the + terminal.
Because if you sit on the engine hood, you'll short out the battery
terminals!

Your 15/16" sounds like Nirvana!

Lg
Bret Ludwig - 30 Nov 2005 03:25 GMT
> I did the experiment, and it worked fine.  What didn't work out was
> the fact that the battery was too tall and I couldn't close the hood
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> tight, I was using paper towels under the hood to show me where the
> contact points were when I was trying to close the engine cowl.

When I had diesel Benzes I would invariably install two big six volt
truck batteries in the trunk, using the battery relocation kits sold in
hot rod stores and welding cable and swaged ends. And a big GM
alternator to replace the Bosch unit.
Lawrence Glickman - 30 Nov 2005 03:53 GMT
>> I did the experiment, and it worked fine.  What didn't work out was
>> the fact that the battery was too tall and I couldn't close the hood
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>hot rod stores and welding cable and swaged ends. And a big GM
>alternator to replace the Bosch unit.

But I don't really have a frame on this *unibody* chassis.  There
aren't any metal channels I could run welding cables through to reach
from engine compartment to the trunk.

then again, I don't like the idea of hydrogen gas building up in the
boot of the car where an electric spark from a brake light bulb could
blow off the back end of the vehicle, right over the fuel tank!

I think I am SOL on using anything other than OEM when it comes to
this engine.  It isn't like in the old days where you could have a
picnic under the hood.  These newer vehicles are smooshed in a metal
smooshing machine so everything is balls to the wall.  Why?  Material
costs savings, lowe aerodynamic profile, who knows...it's just the way
things are.

I though I was buying a *midsized* car coming from a Merc Tracer (
glorified Escort ) but now this *midsize* seems like a midget.  I
wonder if it shrank when I left it out in the rain one day.

Lg
Bob - 30 Nov 2005 04:09 GMT
>>> I did the experiment, and it worked fine.  What didn't work out was
>>> the fact that the battery was too tall and I couldn't close the hood
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> aren't any metal channels I could run welding cables through to reach
> from engine compartment to the trunk.

Keep a decent battery of the proper size in it and it will start in any
weather you are likely to encounter. Go find something else to worry about.
                                          Bob
Lawrence Glickman - 30 Nov 2005 04:17 GMT
>Keep a decent battery of the proper size in it and it will start in any
>weather you are likely to encounter. Go find something else to worry about.
>                                           Bob

Stick your head back up your a.s where it belongs.  Your ears will
stay warm and your IQ might go up a point or two.
                                           Lg

BTW, this is USENET.  You don't own it.  You don't tell me what to
post, when to post, or where to post.  IOW, go f.ck yourself.
ESAD
Bob - 30 Nov 2005 05:08 GMT
>>Keep a decent battery of the proper size in it and it will start in any
>>weather you are likely to encounter. Go find something else to worry
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> post, when to post, or where to post.  IOW, go f.ck yourself.
> ESAD

My advice was good but you choose to ignore it, that's okay. Keep throwing
money you don't have at problems that don't exist..... no skin off my a.s.
Last I heard you were trying to save $30 for a DVOM. But hey..... your
money, your car, your family.... go ahead and do what you want. It's not my
fault your a f.cking idiot, I just point it out from time to time.
                                         Bob
Lawrence Glickman - 30 Nov 2005 05:54 GMT
>>>Keep a decent battery of the proper size in it and it will start in any
>>>weather you are likely to encounter. Go find something else to worry
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>fault your a f.cking idiot, I just point it out from time to time.
>                                          Bob

Because?  I am the only f.cking idiot to post to this n/g?  I don't
notice you're harassment of all the other "f.cking idiots" that post
to this n/g, and trust me, if you don't see any OTHER "f.cking idiots"
posting to this n/g, that means you must be one of them.

And I now have TWO DVOM's.  Both top notch.  It is a non-issue at this
point, much like yourself.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 30 Nov 2005 15:14 GMT
> And I now have TWO DVOM's.  Both top notch.

What did you get?
Lawrence Glickman - 30 Nov 2005 17:30 GMT
>> And I now have TWO DVOM's.  Both top notch.
>
>What did you get?

Believe it or not, I was saving for an Extech.  Then I got a Harbor
Freight Flyer showing a 30% discount on the Centec
Item 35017
AC/DC digital multimeter
32-segment bar graph for a visual representation of measurement
shock resistant case protects 29-function multimeter from damage
dc max voltage 1,000 volts +/- 0.5% accuracy
ac max voltage 750 V +/- 0.9% accuracy
large lcd displays numbers up to 3260
ac/dc max current 10 amps +/- 2% accuracy
10A/250V fuse overload protection
max resistance 32.6 Mohm Range +/- 1.2% accuracy
max frequency 200kHz +/-2.5% accuracy
max capacitance 32.6 Farads
audible continity
low battery indication
AUTO RANGING

Then, an Philanthropist and Unnamed Benefactor who heard of my
*plight* sent to me at no cost an equivalent DMM without the
auto-ranging.

This is all good!  The meter from the Unnamed Benefactor reads up to
20 Amperes!  Test probes are good to 1000 volts.

So that Extech I was thinking about?  Go to the Extech website and
look at the prices they want for those things!  I was going to get the
$80 model, but I got all of this for $20 !!!!!

Lg
Bret Ludwig - 30 Nov 2005 23:26 GMT
> > When I had diesel Benzes I would invariably install two big six volt
> >truck batteries in the trunk, using the battery relocation kits sold in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> boot of the car where an electric spark from a brake light bulb could
> blow off the back end of the vehicle, right over the fuel tank!

The battery relocation kit has a sealed plastic box and a vent tube
that allow gas to vent outside.
Lawrence Glickman - 01 Dec 2005 05:23 GMT
>> > When I had diesel Benzes I would invariably install two big six volt
>> >truck batteries in the trunk, using the battery relocation kits sold in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> The battery relocation kit has a sealed plastic box and a vent tube
>that allow gas to vent outside.

It is a good idea IMO.  Sealed and vented.  But what a hassle it will
be on my unibody, and what that would do to my *warranty* is up in the
air.  I have such an extended warranty on my powertrain, I'm leary
about doing any mods.

For example, since my transmission is expected to blow out in the
future, and this is a costly item as we all know, as my warranty
stands now, dealership will replace it for all but the first $100,
which is a bargain.  Compare that with $4,000 and you see my point.

I read the fine print of my Extended Warranty and they pretty much say
if they find any fingerprints under the hood that don't belong to an
Authorized Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Service Center tech, they can void the
warranty and stick me with the bill. ;-\

The Devil is in the Fine Print.

I do document everything I do, when I do it, mileage when done, and
yet they still may not *buy* that without receipts, which I don't
keep.

So I have to make a decision:
Is this MY CAR or is it still FORD'S CAR ?!?!!!?

If it is My Car, I should be able to do anything to it I want to.  And
then I take the risk of replacement parts costs on my own wallet.

If it is still Ford's Car, I'm just a *licensed driver* and being it
is still THEIR property, am not free to change the windshield wiper
blades without documentation ( photos, receipts, signed affidavits,
and a seal from a Notarized Public! ).

My tendency is to lean to it being _my_ vehicle, to do with as I wish.
I know that some of the things I've done to it so far, in terms of
maintenance have saved me a bundle of dollars vs. bringing it to the
dealership for their version of *skin the sucker alive.*

So far, I've kept it running like a top.  Then again, it is about the
only item I have for my hobby work, and I do tend to lavish attention
to it that might otherwise be considered unwarranted ( no pun intended
).

The bottom line?  I don't think there is a bottom line.  I'll continue
working on it myself and driving it in the *fog zone* of warranty vs.
owner's rights.  I do know I am saving a bundle of bucks right at the
moment, doing all the maintenance myself.  And the best thing is,
although I am retired now for medical problems for the last 18 years,
( heart attack surgery and worse ), I still get that little adrenalin
rush like I used to *back on the job* when I did something right to
fix a machine problem.

The Vulcan V6 OHV which I have is easy to service, as long as I don't
have to go deep into the thing to deal with the inside guts ( ring
jobs and etc ), which still wouldn't be a problem if I had a 2nd car.
Bitch of it is, this is my only vehicle, and whatever I do to it has
to be completed within a reasonable period of time or we're without
transportation.  

Right now, I trust myself to go as far as replacing my own head
gaskets if necessary, and no further.  One must learn to crawl before
one learns to walk and run.  And then there is the warranty issue.
FORD should replace any head gaskets under WARRANTY!  After my $100
deductible.  So in that case, why should I even bother?  bring it to
THEM and see what they say.  If they do the change for $100, they can
have it.  If they try to stick ME with the bill, then I do the job.

Warranties are a fog zone that require reducing speed and using
special spectrum lights.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 29 Nov 2005 04:40 GMT
> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Lg

I think you know enough about batteries to know that a deep cycle
would be a poor choice.
Lawrence Glickman - 29 Nov 2005 05:02 GMT
>> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
>> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>I think you know enough about batteries to know that a deep cycle
>would be a poor choice.

Well in the sense that starter battery is designed for big load for
short time, and trolling motor is designed for small load for long
time....

Then again, look at this idea I have.  My OEM is from used car.  Did I
get a new battery when I bought it?  No.  It was original, just washed
down with engine cleaner like rest of engine compartment.

So how old is OEM by now?  I still get good specific gravity readings.
That is OK.  But by the same token, Deep Cycle Marine is BRAND NEW,
just a few weeks old.  I bought it for my home-made uninterruptible
power supply for this computer which I run off a 600 watt inverter.

Now it is just sitting there, and I am saying this is Brand New, one
in car is Years Old ( maybe 3 years, maybe 4 years ).  It is coming
together on the graph, the lines, as OEM degrades it comes down to
specs of New Marine deep cycle.

Since I have such a midget engine anyhow, and I do mean midget, as I
can ALMOST stick the starter motor and solenoid together into my
jacket pocket...I was thinking that RESERVE CAPACITY might give me the
edge this winter if I need it.

You know, people run down their starter batteries in a few minutes.
And then they are DEAD ( the batteries ).  This has RESERVE CAPACITY,
which means it is built to be run down.  Maybe after a short
resuscitation period between starts, it comes back with enough kick to
get me started, whereas a starter battery would be clean out of juice
by that point.

This way, I can do without carrying around my *jump kit* in my back
seat.

That is extra weight, and the Marine has WAY more *reserve capacity*
than that 17.5 Ah jump kit.

So you see...I am going to put it in and experiment.

I am going to put it in now, although it is 11pm at night, and cold
outside, but I have a heated garage, and will use the jump kit to keep
the PCM program alive by putting that on my battery cables before I
detach them from the OEM.

I am going to look at HLS's URL now and see what they have to say, but
as you can see, this idea is about =reserve capacity= more than
anything else.

Maybe I will still carry jump kit in backseat, but only for a while
until the weather goes below zero, and I get a feel for how this 405
CCA works then.  Again, my rationale is reserve capacity.  And this is
brand new...the date code says August 05, and I've had it on float
charge since I bought it.

OK, it is an experiment.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 29 Nov 2005 05:27 GMT
> OK, it is an experiment.
>
> Lg

You measured 230 amperes starter draw in warm conditions.
Do you think the starter draw will be higher or lower when the
-10 hits?

If you want reliability, spend the extra bucks for an Optima
battery.
Bob - 29 Nov 2005 05:32 GMT
>> OK, it is an experiment.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If you want reliability, spend the extra bucks for an Optima
> battery.

IIRC peak current when the starter is first engaged is over 500 amps even in
warm weather with the permanent magnet starters
                                   Bob
Lawrence Glickman - 29 Nov 2005 05:46 GMT
>> OK, it is an experiment.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>If you want reliability, spend the extra bucks for an Optima
>battery.

That is an AGM IIRC.  Well, I might go that way in January when I get
some more $.  Right now, I've got 405 CCA on the Marine, that should
cover the bases, especially since I'm switching to Synthetic Motor Oil
on Saturday.  I have to get Mobil 5W-20 Synthetic, which might be a
beatch to run-down in this area.  Then again, I can use the phone to
see who has it in stock.  I'll need 5 quarts, and I've got a supply of
Motorcraft LF-400S filters here already.

So less CCA because of synthetic means I might just be able to get
away with this bit of curiosity.

Lg
aarcuda69062 - 29 Nov 2005 05:58 GMT
> >If you want reliability, spend the extra bucks for an Optima
> >battery.
>
> That is an AGM IIRC.  

Yup.

> Well, I might go that way in January when I get
> some more $.  Right now, I've got 405 CCA on the Marine, that should
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> So less CCA because of synthetic means I might just be able to get
> away with this bit of curiosity.

By all means, synthetic will make a big difference.
Bob - 29 Nov 2005 05:27 GMT
>>> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
>>> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> Lg

Why did you ask if it was a good idea if you had already decided to do it?
Will it work? Sure, is it the best battery for the job? Not even close,
reserve capacity isn't what you need when it's -30 degrees out.
                                        Bob
Don Bruder - 29 Nov 2005 05:10 GMT
> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Lg

I've got a marine deep cycle in my ride because for a while, I was using
the beast as a nighttime wildlife filming platform - running all the
lights without running the engine for fairly extended periods, as I was
doing fairly regularly, would have likely roasted the "regular" battery
that was in it in short order. I've noted no problems so far, and
it's... <thinks> three? four? years later now, with the battery still
going strong.

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

aarcuda69062 - 29 Nov 2005 05:21 GMT
> I've got a marine deep cycle in my ride because for a while, I was using
> the beast as a nighttime wildlife filming platform - running all the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it's... <thinks> three? four? years later now, with the battery still
> going strong.

Where do you live Don?
Don Bruder - 29 Nov 2005 05:37 GMT
In article
<nonelson-15F4D8.23211928112005@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com>,

> > I've got a marine deep cycle in my ride because for a while, I was using
> > the beast as a nighttime wildlife filming platform - running all the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Where do you live Don?

Granola-land, but I don't consider myself to be one of the flakes,
fruits, or nuts :)

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

aarcuda69062 - 29 Nov 2005 05:55 GMT
> > Where do you live Don?
>
> Granola-land, but I don't consider myself to be one of the flakes,
> fruits, or nuts :)

That's what I thought, but wasn't quite sure.

LG lives in Chicago, in a little over a month, he'll (as will I)
be looking at sub zero temperatures.

I tried the deep cycle battery thing one year, didn't make it
thru December...

I'm not necessarily a big fan of the mega CCA batteries either,
seems all they do is allow one to crank the engine long enough to
melt the solder out of the starter's armature.
John S. - 30 Nov 2005 17:32 GMT
Sure it can be used as long as it fits.

> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Lg
Lawrence Glickman - 30 Nov 2005 17:54 GMT
>Sure it can be used as long as it fits.

It worked Great!  Until I tried to close the hood ;-(

I noticed that even the OEM which is less tall =still= impacts the
hood padding inside the engine compartment.  They don't give an inch
to pinch in this model of vehicle.  Cheap buggers they are,
considering this is a $26,000 MSRP auto with all the fixings.

Lg
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 01 Dec 2005 04:48 GMT
> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> coming.  Will this Marine battery work OK without damaging the
> electrical system?  Thoughts?

I use one in a Landcruiser due to occasionally drawing down the battery
using the winch. I've had no problems with it for  7 or 8 years.

Be aware of the slightly different configuration of the terminals. In
addition to the standard posts, there are some threaded studs on the
terminals. These might reduce the clearance on the top of the battery in
a tight installation.

Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ask me about my vow of silence.

Lawrence Glickman - 01 Dec 2005 05:30 GMT
>> I have a 2003 Merc Sable with U code Vulcan 3.0 liter.
>> Starter motor is 230.9 amperes in summer temperatures.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>terminals. These might reduce the clearance on the top of the battery in
>a tight installation.

I had to cut those threaded studs off with bolt cutters, and the dang
thing is still too tall for closing the hood ;-\

I pre-measured the thing and IIRC said it was *almost* the same size
+/- fractions of an inch.  I had No Idea those *fractions of an inch*
would be my downfall.  Now I've learned a lesson.  They count.  Every
1/16th of an inch counts.  Next time I will be more careful with my
measuring tape!  Lesson Learned.

Lg
 
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