 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2005lug bolt issue
Admittedly I have no car expertise, but I can do some things like change oil, tune up, minor repair etc... So, I have a Nissan Quest Minivan. I have had it for years with only minor problems here and there. Several monthe ago I felt the wheel wobbling a little bit. It felt like the tire was about to go, but different. I pulled off and took a look. One of the lug bolts holding on the tire had broken! I got a new one and figured out how to replace it and did so. Over the next few weeks each of the other four lug bolts went. The last time I went and got 5 whole new bolts and switched then all out. Haven't had a problem till now. On the way home a bolt broke. The are all on the passenger front wheel, the other wheels have had no problem. Any ideas on what could be wrong here? >Admittedly I have no car expertise, but I can do some things like change >oil, tune up, minor repair etc... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >on the passenger front wheel, the other wheels have had no problem. Any >ideas on what could be wrong here? Only 2 possibilities come to mind: You're getting counterfeit bolts made in China ( aka cheap sh.t ) or You're over-torque-ing the bolts. Putting too much strain on them with your lug wrench. A) go to the Nissan dealer and buy OEM lugs and nuts b) get a torque wrench, set it to the specs for the lug nuts, tighten them in a star pattern, going to 60% the first time around the wheel and 100% the second time around. While you have the wheel off, clean the wheel where it meets the hub, and wire-brush all rust off the hub that the wheel attaches to. Word. Lg >>Admittedly I have no car expertise, but I can do some things like change >>oil, tune up, minor repair etc... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Lg also, check the rim - if the holes are oblong and not round you may have to toss it and get a new rim. Definite possibility if it's been wobbling around on you. Ray >>>Admittedly I have no car expertise, but I can do some things like change >>>oil, tune up, minor repair etc... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> >> Lg ========================================================= >also, check the rim - if the holes are oblong and not round you may have >to toss it and get a new rim. Definite possibility if it's been >wobbling around on you. > >Ray I would hope it would be obvious to the OP whether or not his wheel/tire assembly still had *play* ( wiggle ) in it after mounting and torquing the lug nuts. Every time a front wheel is lifted off the ground, it should be checked for wiggle, in the vertical and horizontal direction, as a test to see if the steering linkage is worn or coming apart. But yes, I recall Nate asking if the wheel/tire assembly was still somewhat lose after the lug nuts were tightened down, and I don't recall seeing a reply from the OP. Wheel shimmy can be caused by a multitude of problems, not the least of which is the one you mention, though I have never seen it happen on any car I have driven. Lg ====================================================== >>also, check the rim - if the holes are oblong and not round you may have >>to toss it and get a new rim. Definite possibility if it's been [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Lg I noted that he had had a loose wheel and broken lugs and was still having problems with it. Having had a similar situation and the lug holes were nicely oblonged I thought I'd add this to be double checked. Depending on the rim it's either blatantly obvious, or maybe a bit harder to see. Just one more thing to double check if you're having problems with loose lugs and broken studs. Heck, I'd be calibrating my torque wrench if I had the same problem with the same wheel two weeks in a row. :) Also, if they're aluminum wheels it may be necessary (and probably a good idea even with steel) to recheck and retorque them after 100 miles or so. Ray >====================================================== >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Depending on the rim it's either blatantly obvious, or maybe a bit >harder to see. If you take the wheel OFF of the hub, and use a lug nut, you can drop the lug nut into the lug holes of the wheel and see if there is any protrusion beyond the wheel metal. That isn't hard to do is it? You can feel for any protrusion of the wheel nut, or you can slide a straight edge across the hub side of the wheel and see if it moves the nut at all. Then you know. All the rest is guessing. And people say I make mountains out of mole hills. Much of what I see here is other people making mountains out of mole hills. This isn't brain surgery. >Just one more thing to double check if you're having problems with loose >lugs and broken studs. >Heck, I'd be calibrating my torque wrench if I had the same problem with >the same wheel two weeks in a row. :) It is just hard to see what is going on. No visuals, no feedback, we're left in an information vacuum. How do you repair something when you get no information. >Also, if they're aluminum wheels it may be necessary (and probably a >good idea even with steel) to recheck and retorque them after 100 miles >or so. I had that problem when I drove my Sable home on day 1. There were 6,500 miles on the odometer and I checked the wheel lug nuts. Some were so loose I could take them off with my bare hands. Aluminum Alloy. They look nice, they handle well, but they have to be watched, at least as you say, checked after a few days for possible re-torquing. >Ray Lg On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news <rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: > >I noted that he had had a loose wheel and broken lugs and was still > >having problems with it. Having had a similar situation and the lug [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the lug nut into the lug holes of the wheel and see if there is any > protrusion beyond the wheel metal. That's only one way it can be blown. It also can still be thick and have oval holes from wear. These holes will not allow the rim to be hand loose, but allow the rim to shift non the less which will break off the new studs. I have seen that more than a few times over the years. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news ><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >to shift non the less which will break off the new studs. I have seen >that more than a few times over the years. Interesting. I've made a note of it. ( i.e. added this post to my notebook along with others ) That would be a shearing force, likely to be most severe during acceleration or braking. I can see it. ABS systems would exacerbate that effect I can imagine. Lg >Mike >86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 >88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's >Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! >Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 >(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > >On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news > ><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Lg not sure about that, but those studs are intended to be loaded ONLY in tension... if there's any shear load at all there's something wrong. nate >> >On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >> ><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> Lg ============================================================= >not sure about that, but those studs are intended to be loaded ONLY in >tension... if there's any shear load at all there's something wrong. > >nate That is the second force on the lugs. One is to hold them to the hub, the second is to resist shearing during acceleration and braking. Think about it for a minute. Lg >>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Lg Nope, there should be NO shear on the lugs. The braking/acceleration forces should be taken care of by the friction of the wheel against the hub. Lugs will fail fairly quickly if they are loaded in shear. nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >nate Should be taken care of by the friction of the wheel against the hub. Nate, my hubs are smooth as a baby's a.s. Like glass. There ain't enough friction between the wheel contact surfact and that hub to stop a 3,800 pound vehicle doing 80 miles/hour. There are multiple *moments of force* applied to the lugs. During turning at speed, during acceleration and deceleration. Just because the wheel doesn't move relative to the hub doesn't mean that the forces to shear the bolts isn't there. If you were going to ELIMINATE shear forces on the lug nuts, nate, you would build a hub with keyways in it to accept a wheel with the keys. Think about it will ya? Lg That's MY STORY AND I'M STICKING TO IT. >>>>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Lg > That's MY STORY AND I'M STICKING TO IT. A 1/2" UNF bolt torqued to about 60 lb-ft after being lubed with anti-seize will apply a clamping force of something on the order of 10,000 lbs. That should be enough to supply the necessary friction, even considering that the coefficient of friction of steel on steel or aluminum on steel is fairly low. In any case, the lugs are not *designed* to accept any serious shear loads, and they will fail if they are subjected to same. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>>>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> Lg >> That's MY STORY AND I'M STICKING TO IT. =========================================================== >A 1/2" UNF bolt torqued to about 60 lb-ft after being lubed with >anti-seize will apply a clamping force of something on the order of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >nate I said, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Your 10,000 lbs of clamping force is creating a more immovable slip differential, but movable it is. There is no keyway. There is only friction. And the friction ALONE is not enough to stop a moving automobile, or propell one forward at high levels of acceleration. I take it you slept through most of physics class. If you think that lug nuts are just there *to hold the wheels on so they don't fall off.* You have 5 of these, a cross section of each being 1.95 inches of round stock. For each wheel. That's it. Along with the friction of the tire itself against the rim of the wheel. That's what keeps the wheels from falling off AND keeps them from standing still while the hubs spin against them. 2 inches of bar stock steel per wheel, times 4 wheels, = 1 each 8 inch diameter billet of stock round steel bar that stands between you and DEATH when you hit the brakes. There are MULTIPLE things that keep your wheels affixed. And it isn't JUST, as you claim, the friction between the aluminum and the steel hub. If friction were important, then why the hell use a polished hub? Why not a rippled one to interlock with a rippled mating surface on the wheel? I'm not going to argue beyond the point of saying if you think that there are no shear forces during acceleration and braking, you are mistaken. And I don't believe that these shear forces are completely explained away by the friction of the tightned wheel against the hub. I believe that the lug bolts take some of the force. Believe what you like. Lg >>>>>>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>>>>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > > Lg There's a lot of things that don't seem intuitive and yet prove out when you do the math and/or perform a test. This is why we have engineers, otherwise you could just design crap on the back of a cocktail napkin and it would always work. In any case, I'm inclined to believe what I was told by several professors than some guy on Usenet. The fact remains that bolts in general are designed to be loaded only in tension, and that lugs are no different. Reversing and/or shear loads will make them fail much, much quicker than they otherwise would. (in an ideal world, they would never fail, being steel.) nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>>>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>>>>>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > >nate *Some guy on usenet* has this question for you nate: If you attach a wall bookshelf with angle brackets, and put books on top of the shelf, where are the forces on the screws holding the angle brackets to the wall. I know that is a question. You can put the question mark at the end of it if you like. Lg What happened to "I'm not going to argue beyond the point...."? >What happened to "I'm not going to argue beyond the point...."? I guess that idea got tossed out the window because I really want nate to make a discovery. He is brighter than the average Joe, and I know he can do this. FYI, I grease the heck out of my wheel rims and hubs to keep them from galling/bonding to eachother. This in effect greatly reduces any friction between the wheel and hub, and in fact the car came to me from the manufacturer with a healthy dose of some oil on the hub to keep the alloy wheel from sticking. If the FACTORY is putting grease/oil on the wheel hubs, I don't think it is *friction* they have in mind when they are doing so. Lg > >>>>On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news > >>>><rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > -- Like if the holes went oval because he said he ran with loose nuts for a while and has already sheared lugs twice.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>>>> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:51:41 GMT, news >>>>> <rollingviolation@domain.invalid.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > nate I think that's the "in theory" part. In the real world, you can accelerate hard enough on drag slicks to move the tire relative to the rim (that's what the paint is for.) You can't tell me that the wheel studs don't absorb some of that load. What about in cornering? They can't require 5/8" wheel studs on my race car (dirt track) just to hold the wheel on. from http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/2136/Moroso-Wheel-Studs.htm "Moroso Wheel Studs are manufactured from high-grade SAE 8740 steel to withstand shear loads of 190,000 psi (which exceeds Grade 8 specifications). Moroso Wheel Studs are designed expressly for use with thick-hub racing wheels for both drag and oval track racing." Ray >>Just one more thing to double check if you're having problems with loose >>lugs and broken studs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > we're left in an information vacuum. How do you repair something when > you get no information. That's why I tossed the idea out. Trying to help people fix cars over the internet is often vague because you can't see the whole picture. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's not. We've already come up with a whack of ideas: 1-incorect torque causing wheel to come loose (too tight/too loose) 2-poor quality wheel studs 3-damaged rim maybe the OP whacked a curb and "forgot" to tell us. That happens. Would be way easier to see in person... so, yeah, it can be frustrating, and usenet can degenerate into a flame war, but most of us are here because we like fixing cars and talking about fixing cars and getting ideas on how to fix cars (and own broken cars that need fixing.) Ray >>>Just one more thing to double check if you're having problems with loose >>>lugs and broken studs. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Ray I sort of look at it this way: If you only means of transportation is a horse, it is a good idea to learn what you can about horses. But back to the wheel bit, I lost one once. The stub axle on my RF wheel broke while I was doing 70 MPH on the Highway 65 going from Detroit to Buffalo, NY. KABANG! Tire/wheel ass'y lodged up in RF wheel well and stopped rotating, and you can imagine the smoke and debris coming off the right side of my vehicle while I was trying to avoid losing control and dying in a pile-up, or flipping the vehicle. Now someone who hasn't had that experience of high speed pants-sh.tting FEAR isn't going to put as much attention into their wheels/tires as somebody who went through what I did. So in this game, it is a truism, what you don't know can get you killed. I read _about_ highway deaths in the 40,000 fatalities/year area in the USA, maybe IIRC 60,000, haven't checked lately. That's a lot of dead bodies. More than we lost in Viet Nam, and that is YEARLY, i.e. every 12 months. So it is really more than a hobby/casual interest. When you get down to it, it can be Life & Death. I remember 2 scenes I will never forget. Both involved heads that had gone through windshields. You don't want to know the details. Lg > Admittedly I have no car expertise, but I can do some things like change > oil, tune up, minor repair etc... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > on the passenger front wheel, the other wheels have had no problem. Any > ideas on what could be wrong here? Are you torquing the lug nuts to spec? When you replace the bolts, are you making sure that they are properly seated in the hub before installing the wheel? Can you pull them in without drastically overtorquing them? I'm guessing the originals broke because they were overtorqued by a tire changer with an air gun, but I'm not sure why your replacements would also be snapping. Is it possible that the tapered seats on that wheel are worn and the lugs are actually snugging up to the hub not the wheel, and the wheel is wobbling ever so slightly even with the lugs tight? not really sure what the problem is here, just trying to throw out some ideas... nate |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.