Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2006
10% alcohol in Gas - what maintenence for older car ?
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marks542004@yahoo.com - 19 Dec 2005 21:55 GMT Hi all,
Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold to be at least 10% ethanol. I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%. The oil companies opposed the legislation.
Good news for the couple of ethanol plants in the state and corn growers I suppose.
I have a 1989 Buick Park Avenue 3.8l v6. The owner manual specifically states no alcohol over 5%.
Legislators have apparently said there are NO concerns with the new rules.
Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to 1989 that makes it OK to run ?
Should I change anything like oil change intervals?
Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.
xblazinlv - 19 Dec 2005 22:03 GMT I was reading about this the other day, I'd be interested to see the replies as well.
http://www.carforums.net/ Auto Forums
Scott Dorsey - 19 Dec 2005 23:18 GMT The big issue that I see is that older fuel lines are not designed for alcohol, and tend to dissolve in alcohol.
If your car is a 1989 model, odds are the fuel hoses have been replaced by now with more modern materials. If they haven't, it's probably time to replace them all with fuel line that can handle 100% ethanol. Do the vacuum hoses while you're at it.
No need to alter your oil change interval, though it's possible you can get away with longer intervals if there is less soot getting into the oil. I wouldn't try it, though. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Ken Pisichko - 20 Dec 2005 03:00 GMT > If your car is a 1989 model, odds are the fuel hoses have been replaced > by now with more modern materials. If they haven't, it's probably time > to replace them all with fuel line that can handle 100% ethanol. Do > the vacuum hoses while you're at it. The OP wrote of Wisconsin and 10% ethanol in GASOLINE. Canada has been using this mixture for years - since at least 1980. Mohawk and Husky sell this blend. IF their ethanol mixture would have caused problems we Canadians would have experienced it by now.
It DOES NOT void car warranties - IF it did there would be all sorts of litigation by now. NO litigation.
Besides, this blend prevents gas line freezing at any temperature. We get lots of cars with frozen gas lines here at about -25C and then at around -35C. Some folks like to drive their cars with nearly empty tanks and fill them only 1/2 or 1/4 full. That results in condensation accumulating and causing the gas line freezing.
The 10% ethanol blend prevents this.
By the way, I use this gasoline in my old 1972 Land rover and in my 1972 510 Datsun (until it's timing chain broke). No problem with old or new (1982 Volvo, 1984 Voyager) vehicles either.
Ken Canada
Don Stauffer - 20 Dec 2005 15:07 GMT >>If your car is a 1989 model, odds are the fuel hoses have been replaced >>by now with more modern materials. If they haven't, it's probably time [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It DOES NOT void car warranties - IF it did there would be all sorts of > litigation by now. NO litigation. .
> Canada The 10% in Wisconsin or Canada doesn't. But my new car warranty says using more than 10% does void warranty, and Minnesota has mandated 20%
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 11:11 GMT > The big issue that I see is that older fuel lines are not designed for > alcohol, and tend to dissolve in alcohol. It was more than just the fuel lines, IIRC. It is no trick to use elastomers that will tolerate alcohols as easily, or more easily, than they tolerate the aromatics (BTX;benzene, toluene, and xylene). Even the old 'rubber' components might survive alcohols pretty well. Polyamides like Nylons dont necessarily tolerate alcohols very well.
Alcohols can actually react with and corrode some of the crap metal alloys that were extensively used in fuel systems. This is not a factor of the alcohol bearing water. The alcohols themselves can react. And you know how much 'pot metal' (zinc alloys), aluminum, etc was used in the old systems.
I dont have any big grudge against the use of alcohol, but I am very suspicious of our government if they are peddling favors to one particular industry.
Some research reports suggest we will have major oil shortages within 10 years. This last little round of price gouging is just a prelim...We are not out of oil, but the demand may well exceed the production capability this soon.
Mike Romain - 19 Dec 2005 22:04 GMT I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol. The engine runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage takes a major dive.
Ontario Canada also is calling for the crap in all the gas.
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars. Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 04:14 GMT > I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol. The engine > runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage > takes a major dive. > > Ontario Canada also is calling for the crap in all the gas. Esso currently uses no ethanol. MTBE only. It's all I'm going to use in my Integra until I hear otherwise.
Mike Romain - 20 Dec 2005 15:38 GMT > > I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol. The engine > > runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Esso currently uses no ethanol. MTBE only. It's all I'm going to use in > my Integra until I hear otherwise. That would figure, my Jeep loves ESSO gas and gets by far the best mileage on it.
My engine refuses to run on Shell or PetroCan 'gas'. It won't even idle and looses all power over 65 mph.
I can get an easy 350 miles to a tank of 91 octane Esso gas. When I burn 91 Shell gas, I am out of gas by 225 miles. Made it to 250 once and was dead on the side of the highway.
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 19:11 GMT > > > I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol. The engine > > > runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > My engine refuses to run on Shell or PetroCan 'gas'. It won't even > idle and looses all power over 65 mph. Actually, Esso is all I've EVER used since Imperial Oil bought Texaco. Other brands only get used in an emergency. (Those gas cards do work to retain brand loyalty, don't they?)
HLS@nospam.nix - 19 Dec 2005 22:35 GMT > Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to > 1989 that makes it OK to run ? It was predominately ethanol in 1989 also. Ethanol is the only one you can get easily from renewable resources, aside from wood alcohol or methanol.
And, wood alcohol is not made so much from wood anymore. It is okay for race car fuel mixtures, but not so good as a mix for gasoline.
So the answer is no...if the manufacturers said no alcohol above 5% then, and if they were telling the truth, chemistry has not changed.
aarcuda69062 - 20 Dec 2005 00:51 GMT In article <1135029333.165079.99150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Hi all, > > Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold > to be at least 10% ethanol. I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%. > The oil companies opposed the legislation. Surprising that the oil companies would oppose it, they have interests in the ethanol plants.
> Good news for the couple of ethanol plants in the state and corn > growers I suppose. Yup. I hear Champagne corks popping at ADM.
> I have a 1989 Buick Park Avenue 3.8l v6. The owner manual specifically > states no alcohol over 5%. GMs biggest concern was with methanol. Above 10%, methanol could strip the Tern coating from inside the fuel tank/lines. Other than jetting up a size or two, my 36 year old Plymouth runs okay on it.
> Legislators have apparently said there are NO concerns with the new > rules. For them, of course not. They get a per-diem for travel which puts money -in- their pocket. Between that and the campaign contributions, they're sitting pretty.
> Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to > 1989 that makes it OK to run ? No difference in the methanol, no difference in the ethanol. Begs the question; have you been paying attention to any stickers and/or placards on the pumps for the last year or two? Reason for asking is two fold; 1) Gasohol has been sold in the Fox Valley for some time now (and I suspect other areas) 2) There was nothing stopping gas stations from selling gasohol to begin with. They -were- however supposed to placard the pumps stating the percentage of alcohol mix (doesn't mean they did).
The positive side to the new legislation is that selling gasohol outside the metro areas where it was mandated almost ten years ago will now be regulated and monitored (supposedly). IOWs, there was little if any prior oversight.
> Should I change anything like oil change intervals? No.
> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars. The added ethanol may have some solvent action that was not present in the good old gasoline you were using. It would not be unusual to see a rash of plugged/restricted fuel filters as a result of this unseen before solvent action inside the fuel tank. The lines and tanks should handle the change just fine. Injectors don't tend to suffer any more than the normal rate of failure -unless- there is a screw up at the alcohol refinery like there was earlier in 2005 that effected fuel sold in the metro Milwaukee area. Other marginal components may see failure such as fuel pressure regulators and accelerator pump cups on carbureted vehicles. Naturally, you'll likely see a drop in fuel economy.
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2005 02:37 GMT > Hi all, > > Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold > to be at least 10% ethanol. Archer Daniels Midland wins again, and drivers lose.
> I have a 1989 Buick Park Avenue 3.8l v6. The owner manual specifically > states no alcohol over 5%. Legislators have apparently said there are NO > concerns with the new rules. Know any legislators who drive cars more than a year or two old? Of course they have no concerns with it!
> Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to > 1989 that makes it OK to run ? No.
> Should I change anything like oil change intervals? Your car. You should be a good little consumer and get a new car. Everyone wants a new car. Anyone who doesn't must be a terrorist, or at least a communist.
> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars. You can look forward to driveability problems, reduced fuel economy, and fuel system component failures.
Nate Nagel - 20 Dec 2005 02:59 GMT >> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars. > > You can look forward to driveability problems, reduced fuel economy, and > fuel system component failures. > Um, Daniel, that's already happening. Fuel evaporates out of carbs much quicker, vapor locks easier, and don't even think about using a NOS fuel pump diaphragm, new production ONLY. Modern gas will eat an old diaphragm real quick (and hoses, too - if you have a 20+ year old car, CHECK THE HOSES! they are cheap and it would be a shame to lose a good car over $5 worth of hose that wasn't replaced)
...and I'm really not old enough to be all crotchety about "this newfangled crap they call gasoline these days" but truth be told it isn't the same stuff that they used to sell...
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 04:00 GMT > >> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > newfangled crap they call gasoline these days" but truth be told it > isn't the same stuff that they used to sell... It used to have MMT up here until about three years ago. Turned your spark plugs a sort of rusty brown.
I just checked the MSDSs for three major Canadian retailers of gasoline. Oddly, Sunoco has no MSDS sheets available on-line. However...
Petro-Canada: Up to 10% ethanol for two types sold in Montreal Everywhere else seems to use up to 15% MTBE.
Esso (Exxon): Up to 15% MTBE
Shell: Up to 10% ethanol
US gasoline requirements map: http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf Exxon uses up to 15% MTBE or up to 10% ethanol, along with some other aditives.
Can MTBE damage your fuel system the way ethanol can?
Al Bundy - 20 Dec 2005 14:27 GMT Gee, I've been driving an old 83' Chev using 10% alcohol from almost day one and the original fuel pump still works. The carb is original too except for the float. When they used MTBE instead of alcohol, it used to have a lean miss. The alcohol seems to run OK and mileage is as much as 23 m.p.g. combined (3.8 V-6 auto).
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:07 GMT And don't forget that the new "gasoline" will have a very short shelf-life because the alcohol acts as an oxygenate and not only attacks everything in the fuel system, but the gasoline itself. Look forward to lawnmowers that need their fuel system purged and rebuilt every spring, snow blowers that need the same every winter, and cars that continually have plastic and aluminum fuel components fail for no apparent reason.
Thank your precious congressmen and politicians for caving into the huge ethanol lobby.... by sending them all your fuel system repair receipts.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 17:27 GMT > And don't forget that the new "gasoline" will have a very short > shelf-life because the alcohol acts as an oxygenate and not only attacks > everything in the fuel system, but the gasoline itself. It doesn't attack the gasoline... And in a system designed for its use, it doesnt unduly attack anything else.
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:59 GMT >>And don't forget that the new "gasoline" will have a very short >>shelf-life because the alcohol acts as an oxygenate and not only attacks >>everything in the fuel system, but the gasoline itself. > > It doesn't attack the gasoline... Oh but it does. All "oxygenates" (alcohol, methanol, MTBE) tend to facilitate the oxidation of gasoline during storage, turning it into something about halfway between varnish and paint thinner that will thoroughly muck up a fuel system. It used to be that if you stored fuel in a sealed can, it would last indefinitely because the small amount of oxygen in the air within the can couldn't do much to it. Now it carries its own self-destructive oxygen with it...
> And in a system designed for its use, it doesnt unduly attack anything else. That's the point- we're talking about systems NOT designed for its use.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 18:59 GMT > > It doesn't attack the gasoline...
> Oh but it does. All "oxygenates" (alcohol, methanol, MTBE) tend to > facilitate the oxidation of gasoline during storage, turning it into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > oxygen in the air within the can couldn't do much to it. Now it carries > its own self-destructive oxygen with it... Cite reputable sources, and I will take it into consideration. Most gum formation comes from catalyzed oxidation of unsaturates in the gasoline stock. That oxygen does not come from oxidates, but from the air. (Oxyen in alcohols, ethers, etc is not available to enter into reaction unless strong catalysis and heat are present.)
Typically, metals like copper or other heavy metals in trace concentrations can catalyze these reactions.
There ARE some issues with alcohols, but until you show concrete references to the contrary, I do not consider oxidative polymerization to be directly related to their use.
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 19:21 GMT >>>It doesn't attack the gasoline... > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > related to > their use. Well, I'll be the first to agree that correlation doesn't imply causation, but there is a HUGE reported correlation between short shelf-life and adulterated (excuse me, "oxygenated") gasoline. I've had old fuel (leaded, no less) sit in a stored car for 5+ years, crank right up and run just fine. Modern oxygenated gasoline will barely make it a year, if that. As I said before, there's only a limited supply of air in a reasonably sealed storage can or gasoline tank with controlled pressure/vacuum relief venting, so unless the fuel is carrying the oxygen itself, where's it going to come from?
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 19:41 GMT e.
> Well, I'll be the first to agree that correlation doesn't imply > causation, but there is a HUGE reported correlation between short [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pressure/vacuum relief venting, so unless the fuel is carrying the > oxygen itself, where's it going to come from? You introduce air each time you fill the tank. The gasoline in the storage tanks at the service station have some small traces of air in them
For a polymerization reaction to occur, you only need traces of the oxidizer. Parts per million levels are enough. And air contains about 210,000 parts per million oxygen.
I think you are observing the phenomenon correctly, but the reason for what you are observing may be a little more complicated.
The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different from unoxygenated fuel. This could be one issue. If alcohol bearing fuels allow more water entrainment, this can lead to the formation of emulsions, and in some cases may even allow microbiological activity. (You remember the old wet kerosene 'sour' smell? Bacteria, more accurately fungi, can cause this.) Also, water can carry the metallic catalysts (like copper traces) easier than gasoline can do it.
Often a shelf life of no more than 6 months is recommended for gasoline of any type. If kept clean and sterile and dry and cool and contained, it should last a lot longer than that, but in the real world, things tend to turn to crap in a hurry.
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 21:49 GMT > e. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > You introduce air each time you fill the tank. Not an issue. We're talking about a STORED tank full of fuel. Not opened for years. Yes, the air that's IN there can oxidize fuel, but its a limited amount (remember it takes 14x as much air as fuel to fully oxidize it).
> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different from > unoxygenated fuel. This could be one issue. I've never heard that. Why should it be different? Any documentation?
> If alcohol bearing fuels allow more water entrainment, this can lead to the > formation of emulsions, and in some cases may even allow microbiological > activity. (You remember the old wet kerosene 'sour' smell? Bacteria, more > accurately fungi, can cause this.) Also, water can carry the metallic > catalysts > (like copper traces) easier than gasoline can do it. You may well be right about the mechanism- I'm an engineer, not a chemist (dammit, Jim!) but the key point is that alcohol adulterants contribute to the premature breakdown of gasoline in a significant way.
> Often a shelf life of no more than 6 months is recommended for gasoline of > any type. If kept clean and sterile and dry and cool and contained, it > should > last a lot longer than that, but in the real world, things tend to turn to > crap in > a hurry. And in a lot bigger hurry when the gasoline is crapped up with oxygenates to start with.
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2005 22:27 GMT >> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different >> from unoxygenated fuel. This could be one issue. > > I've never heard that. Why should it be different? Any documentation? I'm sceptical of this claim. My understanding is that the oxygenate (ethanol, MTBE, ETBE, TAME...) is added to the gasoline very close to the retail distribution level, *not* during manufacture. Certainly this is how it was done in the Denver-metro area right from the start in 1988. The reasons for this, as I understand it, are that oxygenated fuel has a much shorter shelf life than non-oxygenated fuel, different regions require/permit/prohibit different types and amounts of oxygenate, and gasoline with alcohol in it tends to accumulate contaminants (water, dirt) from each vessel and transport pipe it encounters at a greater rate than gasoline without alcohol.
The study at http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/ap/down/oxyfuelstudy.PDF states "Both the non-oxygenated and oxygenated test fuels used in the study utilized the same base stock. These fuels were refined locally and considered typical of this refinery based on the base stock common to both fuels. The oxygenated fuel selected was a 10% ethanol blend because ethanol has been used in 95% of the fuel distributed for the required oxygenated fuel program during the past several winters in Denver."
> the key point is that alcohol adulterants contribute to the premature > breakdown of gasoline in a significant way. That's one of the key points. Another one: Significantly increased formaldehyde (+19%) and acetaldehyde (+160%) emissions: http://www.cudenver.edu/~landerso/No476.pdf
And here's one that makes especially good reading: http://www.fumento.com/bomis1.html
HLS@nospam.nix - 21 Dec 2005 02:34 GMT > >> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different > >> from unoxygenated fuel. This could be one issue. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > from each vessel and transport pipe it encounters at a greater rate than > gasoline without alcohol. Key word is SHOULD. Alcohol enriched fuels work better when certain feedstocks are used. If alcohol is not added, other hydrocarbon distributions work better. Now, most likely the fuel merchants pay little attention to SHOULD. I don't doubt that they just dose the alcohol into what they have chosen to sell.
Yes, there is documentation on the practice of formulating oxygenates differently from pure hydrocarbons. You can find a nice writeup on gasoline, as well as a decent bibliography, online at
http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/cars/gasoline.html
An university library should have a number of books on fuels and fuel additives.
Chemically, I see no reason for oxygenated additives to decrease the life of gasoline directly, but the addition of alcohols, etc, can certainly increase the water (and therefore maybe grit, metal ions, etc) contamination as I mentioned earlier.
Alcohols and ethers, under most common conditions, do not enter into reactions with hydrocarbons. Particularly, they do not directly oxidize them. IF oxygen is present, ethers can form ether peroxides. Ether peroxides can be explosive if concentrated and evaporated to dryness, neither of which is likely in gasoline. Ether peroxides are effective as polymerization initiators, as is the oxygen alone. So ethers are not the cause of gunking, but oxygen is the precursor. Antioxidants in the fuel can prevent this reaction from happening.
If kept clean and dry, then I see no real problem.
HLS@nospam.nix - 21 Dec 2005 02:39 GMT > That's one of the key points. Another one: Significantly increased > formaldehyde (+19%) and acetaldehyde (+160%) emissions: > http://www.cudenver.edu/~landerso/No476.pdf Certainly methanol and ethanol are precursors for formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. It has been my understanding that this is a problem only if the catalytic convertor is not up to temperature or not functioning as it should.
Formaldehyde is, without doubt, a carcinogen at certain levels. The company I used to work for made up to 800 tons of formaldehyde per day, and though it formed the basis for some of our products and we wanted to be protective of it, there was no doubt that long term exposure to fairly low levels of formaldehyde caused increased incidence of cancer.
Acetaldehyde, since it is also highly reactive to tissue, is also a material to be watched, although for years it was given, as paraldehyde in water solution, as a calmative medicine.
> And here's one that makes especially good reading: > http://www.fumento.com/bomis1.html Hugo Schmeisser - 21 Dec 2005 04:26 GMT > >> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be > different >> from unoxygenated fuel. This could be one issue. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (ethanol, MTBE, ETBE, TAME...) is added to the gasoline very close to > the retail distribution level, not during manufacture. What I've come across in the last few days confirms your understanding.
I was digging up MSDS sheets from various oil companies, and somewhere along the line I encountered this exact thing. I cannot now remember where I found it, but it was stated explicitly that ethanol and other oxygenates are NOT added during manufacture, but are added much later on. The reason given was to avoid deterioration of the fuel.
Bret Ludwig - 20 Dec 2005 04:25 GMT > Your car. You should be a good little consumer and get a new car. Everyone > wants a new car. Anyone who doesn't must be a terrorist, or at least a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You can look forward to driveability problems, reduced fuel economy, and > fuel system component failures. Bullshit.
Rebuild it right like the factory should have in the first place , and it will be alcohol-proof.
Nate Nagel - 20 Dec 2005 10:28 GMT >>Your car. You should be a good little consumer and get a new car. Everyone >>wants a new car. Anyone who doesn't must be a terrorist, or at least a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Rebuild it right like the factory should have in the first place , and > it will be alcohol-proof. Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more alcohol won't be running at stoichiometric anymore; it will need to be richened up to run correctly. And then, of course, it will run like sh.t on regular gas, if you can find any.
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
Scott Dorsey - 20 Dec 2005 15:49 GMT >Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of >alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more >alcohol won't be running at stoichiometric anymore; it will need to be >richened up to run correctly. And then, of course, it will run like >sh.t on regular gas, if you can find any. Yes, but that has to be done on a regular basis anyway, because fuel content varies so much between summer and winter. There's a little mixture control screw there; don't be afraid to turn it. That's what it's for. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
N8N - 20 Dec 2005 17:06 GMT > >Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of > >alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it's for. > --scott The mixture screws only adjust the mixture at idle. At wider throttle openings, the idle air bleed screws are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and the mixture is determined by the sizes of the jets and metering rods. So if you're running a stock carburetor on a 30 year old car, it likely is not running as well as it used to, even if everything is in top condition and adjusted to spec.
nate
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:09 GMT >>Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of >>alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it's for. > --scott Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with the throttle closed all the time? Didn't think so.
Scott Dorsey - 20 Dec 2005 17:23 GMT >>>Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of >>>alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with >the throttle closed all the time? Didn't think so. Sorry, I am used to airplanes, which have indeed a mixture control as well as an idle setpoint. So you're telling me that I'd need to drill out the jets (or install smaller ones) to change the mixture? What do people in Denver do? --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:55 GMT >>>>Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of >>>>alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > people in Denver do? > --scott All the major carburetor makers used to provide a range of jets, enrichment valves (aka power valves) and/or metering rods to adjust the mixture at idle, WOT, etc. Carter (now Edelbrock) and Holley still do for their performance 4-bbl carbs. Carter carbs are probably the easiest to do a minor mixture change on because you can pop off two small covers (on 4-bbl models) and change to a thinner metering rod (to enrich) or thicker (to lean). The problem is that you may not have the right jet/rod combo, so you might have to open the carb and change the jet to get the right setup. Holleys require opening the float bowls to change jets, but its fairly simple- although messy. Older 2-bbl carbs and all of the "smog era" carbs are much harder to get jets and other parts for these days.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 01:49 GMT > >>Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture > >>screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of the "smog era" carbs are much harder to get jets and other parts for > these days. For holleys there are aftermarket blocks that take Weber parts and make tuning much easier. Q-Jets use metering rods. Switch to a more tuneable carb and you will be happier, or convert to MegaSquirt EFI which you can program with an old DOS laptop.
Steve - 21 Dec 2005 16:19 GMT >>>>Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture >>>>screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > For holleys there are aftermarket blocks that take Weber parts Weber parts? Never heard of that, since Weber is (was) part of Carter/Federal Mogul that would have been like GM buying crankshafts from Chrysler. Barry Grant and others make aftermarket parts for Holleys (and outright Holley-clones with internal improvements).
>and > make tuning much easier. Q-Jets use metering rods. Switch to a more > tuneable carb and you will be happier, or convert to MegaSquirt EFI > which you can program with an old DOS laptop. All good ideas, but in some areas that will run you afoul of emissions laws that require all ORIGINAL emissions equipment to be in place. Stupid, yes, because you can certainly make a car actually run much cleaner than 1970s emissions systems... but then most emissions laws that apply to cars after they're sold ARE stupid.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 23:32 GMT > > For holleys there are aftermarket blocks that take Weber parts > > Weber parts? Never heard of that, since Weber is (was) part of > Carter/Federal Mogul that would have been like GM buying crankshafts > from Chrysler. Barry Grant and others make aftermarket parts for Holleys > (and outright Holley-clones with internal improvements). Key word: Aftermarket.
N8N - 20 Dec 2005 23:11 GMT > >>>Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of > >>>alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > out the jets (or install smaller ones) to change the mixture? What do > people in Denver do? Generally, mfgrs. set up carbs for sea level by default, and for high altitude locations they would provide dealers with high altitude jet kits to retrofit into the carburetors (or they could be ordered that way from the factory, if it was known that the vehicle would be operated at high altitudes.) I guess if you went from LA to Denver you would have had to stop somewhere along the way and have your carb rejetted.
nate
Steve - 21 Dec 2005 16:14 GMT >>>>>Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of >>>>>alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > nate Only if you planned to stay a long time. Carbureted cars were tolerant enough to run a tad rich for weeks or months at a time at higher elevations. In fact, most cars from ~73 onward ran BETTER if taken from low to high altitude, because they were jetted too lean (to control HC and CO emissions) from the factory.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 02:55 GMT <<snip>>
> Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture > screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with > the throttle closed all the time? Didn't think so. The reason precisely sized parts like jets, power valves, metering rods, needles and emulsion tubes are used is so you can figure out what a given engine needs once and repeat the setup. Hilborn uses pills and Cummins PT uses buttons.
The Fish carburetor was set up by a twist screw like the idle circuit on a regular auto carb. Upside: tuning easy. Downside: destroying valves and pistons easy. EGT gauges would have made Fish more practical, but most Fishes were bought by idiots and often never used.
Don Stauffer - 21 Dec 2005 15:05 GMT >>Balls. Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of >>alcohol used in the fuel. A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it's for. > --scott On most American carburetors for the last half century, the mixture screw was only for the IDLE mixture. Changing the off-idle mixture requires new jets or changing float level. I doubt if the float level adjustment is sufficient for LOTS of ethanol, such as E-85, but might be sufficient for 10-20% alcohol.
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2005 19:38 GMT Bret Ludwig wrote:
> <Bullshit> Hey, lookit there. Baron von Credibility is back to show us all how much he knows.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 02:50 GMT > Bret Ludwig wrote: > > > <Bullshit> > > Hey, lookit there. Baron von Credibility is back to show us all how much > he knows. You are Professor Defeatist. I love alcohol precisely because it makes you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol. Helping the farmers is a side benefit.
N8N - 21 Dec 2005 03:05 GMT > > Bret Ludwig wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol. > Helping the farmers is a side benefit. you *can't* solve the problem without closed loop engine controls, and believe it or not, some of us still have vehicles that old and don't want to be bothered to retrofit FI...
nate
Daniel J. Stern - 21 Dec 2005 04:38 GMT > you *can't* solve the problem without closed loop engine controls ...and closed-loop engine controls *DON'T* solve the problem, they just compensate for it -- at a cost.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 06:41 GMT > > You are Professor Defeatist. I love alcohol precisely because it makes > > you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > believe it or not, some of us still have vehicles that old and don't > want to be bothered to retrofit FI... You can use E85 or M85 without closed loop controls as long as you tune for that fuel. You could gat a carb set up with two sets of metering and have a pull knob to switch, if there were a market for it.
There's a good book out on this that is several years old, John Ware Lincoln is the author. I think you should get a copy and read it.
Ethanol can be produced from ag products that are largely wasted now and methanol can be cheaply made from high sulfur coal. You have to have the market first.
N8N - 21 Dec 2005 13:30 GMT > > > You are Professor Defeatist. I love alcohol precisely because it makes > > > you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You can use E85 or M85 without closed loop controls as long as you > tune for that fuel. Right, but "tune" doesn't involve turning some screws, it involves buying parts that probably most vehicle owners don't know where to obtain and also some trial and error not to mention some time with an exhaust sniffer and dyno if you really want to get everything dialed in just so.
> You could gat a carb set up with two sets of > metering and have a pull knob to switch, if there were a market for it. That's a big if.
> There's a good book out on this that is several years old, John Ware > Lincoln is the author. I think you should get a copy and read it. > > Ethanol can be produced from ag products that are largely wasted now > and methanol can be cheaply made from high sulfur coal. You have to > have the market first. Your definition of "cheaply" is different from the rest of ours, I imagine. Why would I want to spend money and time to convert my vehicle to run on a fuel that is less energy dense, more expensive, and more corrosive than regular old gasoline? Not to mention that the parts to do said conversion aren't even available (unless you want to rejet to run *only* on alcohols) From a consumer's perspective that sounds like a bad deal to me.
nate
Hugo Schmeisser - 21 Dec 2005 04:33 GMT > > Bret Ludwig wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > makes you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have > alcohol. Helping the farmers is a side benefit. If you wish to help farmers, beggaring non-farmers is a poor way to do it (tho' it's done all the time anyway...).
Ethanol is a pork-barrel fraud. Like most recycling, the viability of its economics is completely dependent on robbing Peter to pay Paul. Not only that, but Paul must be robbed from one pocket in order to put some of the money back into his own other pocket so he will think he's paying a competitive price for the stuff.
Daniel J. Stern - 21 Dec 2005 04:38 GMT Bret Ludwig wrote:
> I love alcohol Well, *that* certainly explains a great deal about the, er, cogence and lucidity of your posts.
Steve - 21 Dec 2005 16:25 GMT >>>Bret Ludwig wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If you wish to help farmers, beggaring non-farmers is a poor way to do > it (tho' it's done all the time anyway...). If you want to help farmers, get the government to facilitate EXPORT of surplus crops for profit, rather than impede exports. American farmers could damn near end world hunger, if the distribution system wasn't broken (deliberately by various national governments and otherwise). But don't expect them to do it for free- make it profitable for them.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 23:41 GMT <<snip>>
> If you want to help farmers, get the government to facilitate EXPORT of > surplus crops for profit, rather than impede exports. American farmers > could damn near end world hunger, if the distribution system wasn't > broken (deliberately by various national governments and otherwise). But > don't expect them to do it for free- make it profitable for them. No. Let the rest of the world feed itself. Let American farmers earn a decent profit, by having the organization and discipline not to overproduce. Tax the sh.t out of high-tech petrochemicals and go back to a higher-labor-content, higher-quality, more expensive product-the cost of the food has little to do with what you pay at the supermarket.
The Agriculture Secretary under Carter was asked what it would take to preserve the family farm. He told the truth: ban any tractor bigger than a 9N Ford.
Zimbabwe is the prime and most blatant example of why Africans starve. Either go in, slaughter Mugabe and recolonialize Rhodesia, and sterilize all males with an 80 or under IQ...or fence them in and let nature take its course.
I wipe my a.s with Bono and the Gateses, who are in fact the creators of the problem. Let the big die-off happen-once.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 24 Dec 2005 12:55 GMT > <<snip>> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to a higher-labor-content, higher-quality, more expensive product-the > cost of the food has little to do with what you pay at the supermarket. The only problem for this is that it's more valuable for us here in the United States to have the Central American countries NOT slash-n-burn their jungle into farmland. By sending them food it relieves the pressure on them to do this and leaves the jungle alone, which we can then extract medicines and other products from that can only be produced in the jungle.
It is also cheaper for to grow food here then ship it to desert in the Mid East than for them to irrigate their desert and grow food there. It also helps to keep trade balanced since we want their oil.
> The Agriculture Secretary under Carter was asked what it would take to > preserve the family farm. He told the truth: ban any tractor bigger > than a 9N Ford. Government subsidies to small farmers take a larger bite out of the taxpayers than subsidies to giant agribusiness farms. The truth is that it would be cheaper for the taxpayer to just let all the family farms go bankrupt and be sold to the giant business farms.
> Zimbabwe is the prime and most blatant example of why Africans starve. > Either go in, slaughter Mugabe and recolonialize Rhodesia, and > sterilize all males with an 80 or under IQ...or fence them in and let > nature take its course. Africa has so many problems because the Europeans went in and drew boundaries with no consideration for existing tribal boundaries, and European missionaries went in and pushed Christianity onto the natives with no consideration for the existing religions. They basically engaged in a wholesale attempt to destroy the existing culture. That sort of thing isn't happening anymore but now you have a mishmash where some people in those countries are modern, and want to live in a modern culture, and the rest of them are foundering around. They no longer have the tribal cultures intact, yet have no history of a Westernized culture to learn from.
Ted
Bret Ludwig - 25 Dec 2005 04:53 GMT > > No. Let the rest of the world feed itself. Let American farmers earn a > > decent profit, by having the organization and discipline not to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > medicines and other products from that can only be produced in the > jungle. There is enough land for jungle and agriculture there if it is used properly. Jungle also produces exotic woods which are very valuable but the corrupt governments make proper use very hard. Slash and burn agriculture is a short term proposition.
> It is also cheaper for to grow food here then ship it to desert in the > Mid East than for them to irrigate their desert and grow food there. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > tribal cultures intact, yet have no history of a Westernized culture > to learn from. Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition but a major component is genetic, which you are not going to hear very often.
This is not to say all Africans are stupid. They are however very tribal, and some tribes are intrinsically more capable of living in modern types of societies. I agree missionaries were a very destructive species to be introduced for many reasons.
"Straightening Africa out" is a fool's errand. The human situation will take centuries to evolve, as Europe did from the time of Rome to the late Renaissance, and in my opinion our goals should be that of Gene Roddenberry's Prime Directive, modified by a discreet but forcible protection of African wildlife and other unique features from the base expediencies of the Africans as they evolve. The liberal Roddenberry would have been appalled, probably, but he's dead and we are not.
M.M. - 25 Dec 2005 05:49 GMT > ... > Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is > their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition > but a major component is genetic, which you are not going to hear very > often. > ... Where on earth did you get that?
Have you ever been to Africa, sub-Saharan or otherwise?
gfulton - 25 Dec 2005 13:35 GMT >> ... >> Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Have you ever been to Africa, sub-Saharan or otherwise? I worked there. Gambia, 1977. No way was that true in that area. If everybody had been that dense, I'm sure I'd have noticed. I think this guy is full of it.
Garrett Fulton
Daniel J. Stern - 25 Dec 2005 15:48 GMT >> Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is >> their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition >> but a major component is genetic, which you are not going to hear very >> often.
> I worked there. Gambia, 1977. No way was that true in that area. If > everybody had been that dense, I'm sure I'd have noticed. I think this > guy is full of it. Just your standard, garden-variety racist.
Bret Ludwig - 25 Dec 2005 20:39 GMT > >> Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is > >> their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Just your standard, garden-variety racist. Diversity v. Freedom, Chapter CLXXXVII: The Case Of Andrew Fraser
By Steve Sailer
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
If Voltaire were alive today, he'd be spinning in his grave.
The latest collision between "diversity," the highest ideal of the present age, and such outmoded concepts as academic freedom has a VDARE.com contributor, Australian law professor Drew Fraser, as the victim.
For having the temerity to write a letter to a local newspaper.
"A Sydney university has banned a controversial law professor from teaching after he publicly aired his views on non-whites and Africans in Australia. Canadian-born Associate Professor Andrew Fraser was cautioned by Macquarie University last week over a letter he wrote to a suburban newspaper...University vice-chancellor Professor Di Yerbury responded with a three-page memo to staff announcing that Professor Fraser would not teach until further notice..." [Outspoken Academic banned from teaching, Tamara Mclean, News.com.au, July 29 2005][VDARE.COM note: The original letter, published in the Parramatta Sun, is not online. Professor Fraser posted the text of it as a comment on MajorityRights.com (scroll down)]
Connoisseurs of irony will treasure the university's justification:
"Professor Fraser yesterday rejected an offer by the university to buy out his contract and launched a bitter attack on Vice-Chancellor Di Yerbury, describing her as an 'intellectual coward'. Professor Yerbury responded by suspending Professor Fraser from teaching, citing a report in The Australian yesterday in which he claimed a group called Smash Racism was planning to disrupt his classes... 'We have a duty to act decisively to protect his safety and that of others on campus,' she said. Professor Yerbury told The Weekend Australian late yesterday that she would seek legal advice if he made further unauthorized public statements.... Yerbury said she was not bothered by Professor Fraser's personal attack on her. 'I will wear that as a badge of honour,' she said. 'I made the apology because I was distressed and ashamed he had associated the university with views which so fundamentally contravened its position.' [Lecture ban for 'racist' professor , Greg Roberts, The Weekend Australian, July 30, 2005]
Okay, let me see if I have this straight: The university must keep their professor from saying that immigration raises the risk of criminal violence-to safeguard him from criminal violence from immigrants and their supporters?
R-i-g-h-t... [Email Macquarie University Vice-Chancellor Di Yerbury].
Perhaps not coincidentally, this was happening at the same time that police were arresting several East African immigrants in the attempted July 21 terrorist bombings in London.
In effect, Fraser is being prevented from expressing views on politics-although professors pontificating about politics is a much-loved feature of public life throughout the Anglosphere.
So what about Professor Fraser's statement that Africans tend to have low IQs and high testosterone levels?
Here at VDARE.com, unlike at almost every other outlet (and, apparently, Macquarie University), our first question is not whether it's politically correct to say something. Instead we ask: Is it true?
And it is true. Africans do tend to have low IQs.
The average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans in Africa has been studied many times over many decades. It keeps coming out almost two standard deviations below that of Europeans and nearly two and half standard deviations below that of Northeast Asians.
Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen's landmark book IQ and the Wealth of Nations (2002) summarizes 32 published studies of representative samples of individuals in black African countries: No researchers found an African average national IQ higher than 80.
Of course, a selective immigration system-which we don't have-could mitigate part of this IQ shortfall by picking unusually talented applicants, of which there are certainly some from all countries.
For example, a friend of mine who was getting his Ph.D. at UCLA came from a family of nine children in Cameroon in West Africa. Eight of the nine earned advanced degrees from Western universities, and the oldest was a surgeon and oncologist who had shared in the prestigious Albert Lasker Award for Clinical Medical Research.
(Naturally, the West's brain-draining of Africa's smartest people just contributes to the continent's poverty. But that's another story.)
Here in America, the massive National Longitudinal Study of Youth found that the mean IQ of blacks who were the children of immigrants was 90, about five points above the norm for African-Americans. The logic of regression toward the mean suggests that their immigrant parents probably averaged even higher IQs.
One little-discussed reason why American political and media elites in Washington D.C. favor immigration so much more than the rest of us is because they prefer the fairly well-educated, polite, and hard-working immigrants from Africa's best families who flock to the D.C. area over the capital's native-born African-Americans, whom our leaders privately view as ignorant, surly, lazy, and crime-prone.
(Naturally, importing immigrants to out-compete our black fellow citizens doesn't solve their problems. It just makes them worse. But that's another story too.)
Unfortunately, the African immigrants' kids often assimilate toward the values expressed in the most charismatic force in African-American culture: gangsta rap.
Will the children of African immigrants to Australia hip-hop down the same disastrous trail? The Israeli example is not encouraging. According to the Associated Press, the young Falasha Jews whose parents were airlifted from Ethiopia have found
"an unlikely source of solace, pride and identity-America's black culture. The fact that most of these Ethiopian teens have never visited the United States or even met a black American doesn't prevent them from embracing rap music and hip-hop fashion, along with sometimes misguided stereotypes gleaned from MTV, movies and news reports."
What about Fraser's contention that blacks have more testosterone on average?
This hasn't been studied as much as IQ. But the scientific evidence supports Fraser once again.
Andrew Sullivan, a prescription testosterone user, has written a long article in the New York Times Magazine (The He Hormone, April 02, 2000) about the powerful effect of his prescription testosterone injections on his behavior. In it, Sullivan pointed out:
"Even more unsettling is the racial gap in testosterone. Several solid studies, published in publications like Journal of the National Cancer Institute, show that black men have on average 3 to 19 percent more testosterone than white men. This is something to consider when we're told that black men dominate certain sports because of white racism or economic class rather than black skill."
The relevant question is not just hormone levels in the bloodstream, but the varying power of the male hormone receptors. Men with stronger androgen receptors tend to behave as if they have higher levels of testosterone and other male hormones. A team of geneticists led by Rick Kittles of Howard U. documented that race accounts for 20 percent of the variations in the gene that controls the strength of the body's androgen receptors. Men of African descent tend toward the high end, men of East Asian descent toward the low end, whites generally near the middle.
Keep in mind that 80% of the variation observed was within racial groups. Which is about what you'd expect from observing the world around you. In every racial group, there exists a wide variety of physical and personality types among men, from the most hyper-masculine to the most gentle.
Still, few who watch sports on television, follow Olympic running results, or examine interracial marriage patterns, will be surprised that blacks on the whole score highest on those androgen receptor gene alleles associated with greater masculinity.
Let's discuss the larger issue: Why is truth-telling important? What's so useful about free speech? Wouldn't it be better just to bury our heads in the sand about things like race and IQ?
No-because everything that is true is causally connected to something else that is true. In contrast, lies, ignorance, and wishful thinking are dead ends.
If, as National Review's Austin Bramwell kindly suggested recently, my articles are more interesting and insightful than those of the better-paid purveyors of the conventional wisdom, the main reason is simply because I follow the chains of cause and effect wherever they lead.
The promotion of ignorance is cruel, not kind, because facts are useful while twaddle is just a dead end.
Two examples: bullet prostate cancer appears to correlate positively with male hormone and receptor levels, so it's not surprising that
"African-American men are at substantially higher risk of developing and dying from prostate cancer than Caucasians in the United States. African-American men living in the San Francisco area have a risk of developing prostate cancer that is 120 times that of Chinese men living in China... A systematic study of black men in Nigeria found that prostate cancer incidence was actually much higher than previously reported and may be as high as that noted among black men in the US (Osegbe 1997, Prostate cancer in Nigerians: facts and nonfacts, Journal of Urology, 157(4):1340-1343.)." bullet Tony Blair and Sir Bob Geldof did their considerable all to make African poverty a big deal at the recent meeting of the G8 countries. But little good will come of it-for the simple reason that nobody in polite society is allowed to talk about sub-Saharan Africa's most fundamental problem-its average IQ of around 70.
Because African-Americans score around 85, and they share about 80% of their genes with their African cousins, it seems likely that the difficult environment in Africa (malnutrition, disease, disorder, poverty, and so forth) depresses the typical African's IQ substantially below his or her genetic potential.
Perhaps the most cost-effective way to raise IQs in Africa is to attack the IQ-lowering medical syndromes caused by a lack of micronutrients, such as "endemic cretinism," which stems from too little iodine in the diet. Western countries started fortifying salt with iodine and flour with iron back before WWII, and that quickly eliminated what had been a substantial problem here.
UNICEF issued an important study of poor countries' micronutrient deficiencies last year. I wrote in VDARE.com about what we could be doing to help the Third World raise its average IQ, here and here.
But almost no one else in the press was interested-because they know they will get in trouble, like Professor Fraser, if they mention African IQ.
See, "nice" people think it's more moral to let endemic cretinism and the like ravage Africa than to bring up IQ in polite society.
Only EVIL people try to get the world to notice the problem...and do something about it.
But we can't make problems go away by pretending they don't exist.
As Enoch Powell pointed out in his continually-denounced but never-refuted 1968 immigration speech:
"The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature.... Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: 'if only', they love to think, 'if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen.'
And Powell's conclusion is equally valid today:
"All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal."
Ted Mittelstaedt - 29 Dec 2005 11:40 GMT Oh good Lord. What a load of claptrap.
There are two very good reasons that Blacks in the US predominate in sports. First is economic, it's well documented that there's a higher percentage of poor blacks than poor whites, and sports are one of the few areas that someone with a dirt poor background can use to better themselves.
Every High School in the land has at least a half-million dollar sporting field and gym constructed, yet how many of them put a tenth of that into music? The US has taught the poor children very well that if you want your college education to be fully paid for, go into sports, not into music.
Second, the majority of blacks in the US today are slave descendents. 150-200 years ago when they were bringing slave blacks over on slaving ships, conditions were appalling and only the strongest and healthiest people survived the journey. It was a form of viscious natural selection that was further enhanced when the white Southern plantation owners - desiring more strong slaves - forbid the weaker slaves to have children and encouraged the stronger ones to have lots of children (which they could sell of course) When your ancestors were the strongest of the group, those genes will be passed down. Obviously, that's not going to continue forever, and the McDonalds and other fast food places have been working overtime to make the blacks today as fat slobs as the whites today are. Some equality!
But as far as IQ goes, there's no supporting evidence that it's something that can be passed down through genetics. People thought Albert Einstein's children would be geniuses, they wern't. If IQ was genetic then all government would be monarchies, as the most intelligent people would have sought each other out thousands of years ago and we would have hyper-intelligent families that would run all the governments today.
Sure, you can damage IQ with poor diet. But it's not like it takes a particularly high IQ to function in modern society in most jobs today. The truth of the matter is that cultural indoctorination is going to outweigh raw IQ every time. When you take a child with a high IQ and bring them up believing the kind of claptrap that so many of the fundies seem to be doing - like the world was created in 7 days and that kind of horse pattoties - you are destroying their ability to ever make any use of that high IQ just as surely as if you fed them a bad diet.
And, even if you raise a kid right and teach them solid science and how things work, and they have a high IQ, if they are lazy-a.ses then that IQ and knowledge won't amount to sh.t on a shingle either. Someone with a lower IQ and lots of motivation will kick the sh.t out of someone with a higher IQ and no motivation, every time. And there's a tremendous number of people running around today with high IQ's, decent education, and so little motivation you couldn't trust them with a burnt-out match.
The people that put out the kind of claptrap that Bret posted here are nothing more than Aryan Nation wannnabes. You look at the skin color of all those people writing that kind of racist sh.t. They are all whites, and never do they say anything bad about people of their own skin color.
Ted
norm - 15 Jan 2006 20:02 GMT I think we need a caucasian testosterone college fund to even things out a bit.
> Oh good Lord. What a load of claptrap. > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Ted Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 04:20 GMT > Hi all, > > Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold > to be at least 10% ethanol. I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%. Not actually required until 2013. http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/239/791.html
Excerpt: "Subd. 1a. Minimum ethanol content required. (a) Except as provided in subdivisions 10 to 14, on August 30, 2013, and thereafter, a person responsible for the product shall ensure that all gasoline sold or offered for sale in Minnesota must contain at least 20 percent denatured ethanol by volume.
Interestingly, the law contains liability protection for fuel sellers in case the new gas damages cars: "(c) No motor fuel shall be deemed to be a defective product by virtue of the fact that the motor fuel is formulated or blended pursuant to the requirements of paragraph (a) under any theory of liability except for simple or willful negligence or fraud."
Jeez...
Ted Mittelstaedt - 20 Dec 2005 11:30 GMT > Hi all, > > Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold > to be at least 10% ethanol. I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%. > The oil companies opposed the legislation. Oregon does 10% for winter gasoline, the DEQ says it cuts down on smog. While I'm not an atmospheric chemist I still don't see how 10% alcohol cuts smog down in the winter.
Ted
Don Stauffer - 20 Dec 2005 15:01 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > rules. > . The legislatures are talking about their belief. The problem I see is that the 20% called for by Minnesota voids the warranty on my new car. I have yet to have a Mn legislature respond to me on THIS problem.
Stephen H - 20 Dec 2005 18:14 GMT Wow, Just had a tech class covering this (in part) The case study was a 2004 Ford Escape (I believe-resource is on my toolbox at work) Customer complained of running poorly at first and poor gas mileage, now it runs OK but mileage still poor. Was at the dealer twice they say everything's ok. Short term and long term fuel trim looks good on a standard scanner (about 11%), but on a Ford NGT scanner the Rear fuel trim assed another 11 percent to the equation. As the car is adding gas by the positive fuel trim readings, that means the car sees a lean condition. Filter and pump test good, so the shop runs a alcohol test on the fuel. 20%! California says no more than 10% Alcohol is best used in higher combustion engines and I believe he said takes twice as much to get the same bang per gallon as gas? The only car that can currently run on either gas or any mixture is a Saab with a turbo. It has a sensor that reads the mixture and adjust the turbo to run for whatever it sees. 100% gas about 140 HP,- 100% Methanol about 180HP. The interesting thing to see is that based upon the rate each fuel (or combo of) burns at there is NO MPG increase on this car from one fuel to another.
Will be interesting to see the long term of a state mandating 20%
 Signature Stephen W. Hansen ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance ASE Undercar Specialist
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars. HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 20:00 GMT "Stephen H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qSXpf.174920$qk4.93166@bgtnsc05-n
> Alcohol is best used in higher combustion engines and I believe he said > takes twice as much to get the same bang per gallon as gas? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The interesting thing to see is that based upon the rate each fuel (or combo > of) burns at there is NO MPG increase on this car from one fuel to another. You probably meant high compression engines. Alcohol does not have the specific energy content that pure hydrocarbon fuels do, so they could not be expected to give the same performance in terms of economy per unit volume.
Ford representative has said that future Ford vehicles will be totally cross compatible between gasoline and alcohol.
There is a guy (Gunnerman) who has been touting burning mixtures of water and gasolinefor greatly increased economy and decreased emissions. ¨ Apparently he got enough interest in his claims to get some state agencies to back some of his studies.
There may be something of value in his claims. In Venezuela, Oremulsion technology was used to convert tarlike crudes to pumpable water emulsions so that it could be produced and sent to market.
Unfortunately, it was essentially impossible to separate the water from this ¨ crude, and it had to be sold a low grade marine fuel. As I remember the case, they sprayed the water laden fuel directly into the fireboxes and got about the same economy as if they had been spraying pure fuel oil.
Bottom line...I dont think alcohol is a good long term answer. If we should run out of affordable petroleum, we are in deep caca. I suspect that a diesel like fuel derived from tall oils or oil seeds might be the best renewable source of fuel, unless we make some significant breakthroughs in other areas.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 20:10 GMT http://www.rbbi.com/folders/fuel/a-21.htm
In case anyone is interested in the Gunnerman saga, the above link should take you to some quick reads.
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