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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2006

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10% alcohol in Gas - what maintenence for older car ?

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marks542004@yahoo.com - 19 Dec 2005 21:55 GMT
Hi all,

Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold
to be at least 10% ethanol.  I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%.
The oil companies opposed the legislation.

Good news for the couple of ethanol plants in the state and corn
growers I suppose.

I have a 1989 Buick Park Avenue 3.8l v6. The owner manual  specifically
states no alcohol over 5%.

Legislators have apparently said there are NO concerns with the new
rules.

Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to
1989 that makes it OK to run ?

Should I change anything like oil change intervals?


Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.
xblazinlv - 19 Dec 2005 22:03 GMT
I was reading about this the other day, I'd be interested to see the
replies as well.

http://www.carforums.net/
Auto Forums
Scott Dorsey - 19 Dec 2005 23:18 GMT
The big issue that I see is that older fuel lines are not designed for
alcohol, and tend to dissolve in alcohol.

If your car is a 1989 model, odds are the fuel hoses have been replaced
by now with more modern materials.  If they haven't, it's probably time
to replace them all with fuel line that can handle 100% ethanol.  Do
the vacuum hoses while you're at it.

No need to alter your oil change interval, though it's possible you can
get away with longer intervals if there is less soot getting into the
oil.  I wouldn't try it, though.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Ken Pisichko - 20 Dec 2005 03:00 GMT
> If your car is a 1989 model, odds are the fuel hoses have been replaced
> by now with more modern materials.  If they haven't, it's probably time
> to replace them all with fuel line that can handle 100% ethanol.  Do
> the vacuum hoses while you're at it.

The OP wrote of Wisconsin and 10% ethanol in GASOLINE. Canada has been
using this mixture for years - since at least 1980. Mohawk and Husky sell
this blend. IF their ethanol mixture would have caused problems we
Canadians would have experienced it by now.

It DOES NOT void car warranties - IF it did there would be all sorts of
litigation by now. NO litigation.

Besides, this blend prevents gas line freezing at any temperature. We get
lots of cars with frozen gas lines here at about -25C and then at around
-35C.  Some folks like to drive their cars with nearly empty tanks and fill
them only 1/2 or 1/4 full. That results in condensation accumulating and
causing the gas line freezing.

The 10% ethanol blend prevents this.

By the way, I use this gasoline in my old 1972 Land rover and in my 1972
510 Datsun (until it's timing chain broke). No problem with old or new
(1982 Volvo, 1984 Voyager) vehicles either.

Ken
Canada
Don Stauffer - 20 Dec 2005 15:07 GMT
>>If your car is a 1989 model, odds are the fuel hoses have been replaced
>>by now with more modern materials.  If they haven't, it's probably time
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> It DOES NOT void car warranties - IF it did there would be all sorts of
> litigation by now. NO litigation.

.
> Canada

The 10% in Wisconsin or Canada doesn't.  But my new car warranty says
using more than 10% does void warranty, and Minnesota has mandated 20%
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 11:11 GMT
> The big issue that I see is that older fuel lines are not designed for
> alcohol, and tend to dissolve in alcohol.

It was more than just the fuel lines, IIRC.  It is no trick to use
elastomers that will tolerate
alcohols as easily, or more easily, than they tolerate the aromatics
(BTX;benzene, toluene, and
xylene).   Even the old 'rubber' components might survive alcohols pretty
well.  Polyamides
like Nylons dont necessarily tolerate alcohols very well.

Alcohols can actually react with and corrode some of the crap metal alloys
that were extensively
used in fuel systems.  This is not a factor of the alcohol bearing water.
The alcohols themselves
can react.  And you know how much 'pot metal' (zinc alloys), aluminum, etc
was used in the
old systems.

I dont have any big grudge against the use of alcohol, but I am very
suspicious of our
government if they are peddling favors to one particular industry.

Some research reports suggest we will have major oil shortages within 10
years.  This last
little round of price gouging is just a prelim...We are not out of oil, but
the demand may
well exceed the production capability this soon.
Mike Romain - 19 Dec 2005 22:04 GMT
I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol.  The engine runs
like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage takes a
major dive.

Ontario Canada also is calling for the crap in all the gas.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.
Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 04:14 GMT
> I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol.  The engine
> runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage
> takes a major dive.
>
> Ontario Canada also is calling for the crap in all the gas.

Esso currently uses no ethanol. MTBE only. It's all I'm going to use in
my Integra until I hear otherwise.
Mike Romain - 20 Dec 2005 15:38 GMT
> > I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol.  The engine
> > runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Esso currently uses no ethanol. MTBE only. It's all I'm going to use in
> my Integra until I hear otherwise.

That would figure, my Jeep loves ESSO gas and gets by far the best
mileage on it.

My engine refuses to run on Shell or PetroCan 'gas'.  It won't even idle
and looses all power over 65 mph.

I can get an easy 350 miles to a tank of 91 octane Esso gas.  When I
burn 91 Shell gas, I am out of gas by 225 miles.  Made it to 250 once
and was dead on the side of the highway.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 19:11 GMT
> > > I own a Jeep CJ7 and my manual calls for 'no' ethanol.  The engine
> > > runs like a bag of dirt when forced to use it and the gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> My engine refuses to run on Shell or PetroCan 'gas'.  It won't even
> idle and looses all power over 65 mph.

Actually, Esso is all I've EVER used since Imperial Oil bought Texaco.
Other brands only get used in an emergency. (Those gas cards do work to
retain brand loyalty, don't they?)
HLS@nospam.nix - 19 Dec 2005 22:35 GMT
> Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to
> 1989 that makes it OK to run ?

It was predominately ethanol in 1989 also.  Ethanol is the only one you
can get easily from renewable resources, aside from wood alcohol or
methanol.

And, wood alcohol is not made so much from wood anymore.
It is okay for race car fuel mixtures, but not so good
as a mix for gasoline.

So the answer is no...if the manufacturers said no alcohol above 5% then,
and if they were telling the truth, chemistry has not changed.
aarcuda69062 - 20 Dec 2005 00:51 GMT
In article
<1135029333.165079.99150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

> Hi all,
>
> Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold
> to be at least 10% ethanol.  I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%.
> The oil companies opposed the legislation.

Surprising that the oil companies would oppose it, they have
interests in the ethanol plants.

> Good news for the couple of ethanol plants in the state and corn
> growers I suppose.

Yup.  I hear Champagne corks popping at ADM.

> I have a 1989 Buick Park Avenue 3.8l v6. The owner manual  specifically
> states no alcohol over 5%.

GMs biggest concern was with methanol.  Above 10%, methanol could
strip the Tern coating from inside the fuel tank/lines.  Other
than jetting up a size or two, my 36 year old Plymouth runs okay
on it.

> Legislators have apparently said there are NO concerns with the new
> rules.

For them, of course not. They get a per-diem for travel which
puts money -in- their pocket.  Between that and the campaign
contributions, they're sitting pretty.

> Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to
> 1989 that makes it OK to run ?

No difference in the methanol, no difference in the ethanol.
Begs the question; have you been paying attention to any stickers
and/or placards on the pumps for the last year or two?
Reason for asking is two fold;
1) Gasohol has been sold in the Fox Valley for some time now (and
I suspect other areas)
2) There was nothing stopping gas stations from selling gasohol
to begin with. They -were- however supposed to placard the pumps
stating the percentage of alcohol mix (doesn't mean they did).

The positive side to the new legislation is that selling gasohol
outside the metro areas where it was mandated almost ten years
ago will now be regulated and monitored (supposedly).
IOWs, there was little if any prior oversight.

> Should I change anything like oil change intervals?

No.

> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.

The added ethanol may have some solvent action that was not
present in the good old gasoline you were using. It would not be
unusual to see a rash of plugged/restricted fuel filters as a
result of this unseen before solvent action inside the fuel tank.
The lines and tanks should handle the change just fine.
Injectors don't tend to suffer any more than the normal rate of
failure -unless- there is a screw up at the alcohol refinery like
there was earlier in 2005 that effected fuel sold in the metro
Milwaukee area.
Other marginal components may see failure such as fuel pressure
regulators and accelerator pump cups on carbureted vehicles.
Naturally, you'll likely see a drop in fuel economy.
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2005 02:37 GMT
> Hi all,
>
> Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold
> to be at least 10% ethanol.

Archer Daniels Midland wins again, and drivers lose.

> I have a 1989 Buick Park Avenue 3.8l v6. The owner manual specifically
> states no alcohol over 5%. Legislators have apparently said there are NO
> concerns with the new rules.

Know any legislators who drive cars more than a year or two old? Of course
they have no concerns with it!

> Is there a difference in the type of alcohol used today as opposed to
> 1989 that makes it OK to run ?

No.

> Should I change anything like oil change intervals?

Your car. You should be a good little consumer and get a new car. Everyone
wants a new car. Anyone who doesn't must be a terrorist, or at least a
communist.

> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.

You can look forward to driveability problems, reduced fuel economy, and
fuel system component failures.
Nate Nagel - 20 Dec 2005 02:59 GMT
>> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.
>
> You can look forward to driveability problems, reduced fuel economy, and
> fuel system component failures.
>  

Um, Daniel, that's already happening.  Fuel evaporates out of carbs much
quicker, vapor locks easier, and don't even think about using a NOS fuel
pump diaphragm, new production ONLY.  Modern gas will eat an old
diaphragm real quick (and hoses, too - if you have a 20+ year old car,
CHECK THE HOSES! they are cheap and it would be a shame to lose a good
car over $5 worth of hose that wasn't replaced)

...and I'm really not old enough to be all crotchety about "this
newfangled crap they call gasoline these days" but truth be told it
isn't the same stuff that they used to sell...

nate

Signature

replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 04:00 GMT
> >> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> newfangled crap they call gasoline these days" but truth be told it
> isn't the same stuff that they used to sell...

It used to have MMT up here until about three years ago. Turned your
spark plugs a sort of rusty brown.

I just checked the MSDSs for three major Canadian retailers of
gasoline. Oddly, Sunoco has no MSDS sheets available on-line. However...

Petro-Canada:
Up to 10% ethanol for two types sold in Montreal
Everywhere else seems to use up to 15% MTBE.

Esso (Exxon):
Up to 15% MTBE

Shell:
Up to 10% ethanol

US gasoline requirements map:
http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf
Exxon uses up to 15% MTBE or up to 10% ethanol, along with some other
aditives.

Can MTBE damage your fuel system the way ethanol can?
Al Bundy - 20 Dec 2005 14:27 GMT
Gee, I've been driving  an old 83' Chev using 10% alcohol from almost
day one and the original fuel pump still works. The carb is original
too except for the float. When they used MTBE instead of alcohol, it
used to have a lean miss. The alcohol seems to run OK and mileage is as
much as 23 m.p.g. combined (3.8 V-6 auto).
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:07 GMT
And don't forget that the new "gasoline" will have a very short
shelf-life because the alcohol acts as an oxygenate and not only attacks
everything in the fuel system, but the gasoline itself. Look forward to
lawnmowers that need their fuel system purged and rebuilt every spring,
snow blowers that need the same every winter, and cars that continually
have plastic and aluminum fuel components fail for no apparent reason.

Thank your precious congressmen and politicians for caving into the huge
ethanol lobby.... by sending them all your fuel system repair receipts.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 17:27 GMT
> And don't forget that the new "gasoline" will have a very short
> shelf-life because the alcohol acts as an oxygenate and not only attacks
> everything in the fuel system, but the gasoline itself.

It doesn't attack the gasoline...
And in a system designed for its use, it doesnt unduly attack anything else.
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:59 GMT
>>And don't forget that the new "gasoline" will have a very short
>>shelf-life because the alcohol acts as an oxygenate and not only attacks
>>everything in the fuel system, but the gasoline itself.
>
> It doesn't attack the gasoline...
Oh but it does. All "oxygenates" (alcohol, methanol, MTBE) tend to
facilitate the oxidation of gasoline during storage, turning it into
something about halfway between varnish and paint thinner that will
thoroughly muck up a fuel system. It used to be that if you stored fuel
in a sealed can, it would last indefinitely because the small amount of
oxygen in the air within the can couldn't do much to it. Now it carries
its own self-destructive oxygen with it...

> And in a system designed for its use, it doesnt unduly attack anything else.

That's the point- we're talking about systems NOT designed for its use.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 18:59 GMT
> > It doesn't attack the gasoline...

> Oh but it does. All "oxygenates" (alcohol, methanol, MTBE) tend to
> facilitate the oxidation of gasoline during storage, turning it into
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> oxygen in the air within the can couldn't do much to it. Now it carries
> its own self-destructive oxygen with it...

Cite reputable sources, and I will take it into consideration.
Most gum formation comes from catalyzed oxidation of unsaturates in
the gasoline stock.  That oxygen does not come from oxidates, but from the
air.  (Oxyen in alcohols, ethers, etc is not available to enter into
reaction unless
strong catalysis and heat are present.)

Typically, metals like copper or other heavy metals in trace concentrations
can catalyze these reactions.

There ARE some issues with alcohols, but until you show concrete references
to the contrary, I do not consider oxidative polymerization to be directly
related to
their use.
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 19:21 GMT
>>>It doesn't attack the gasoline...
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> related to
> their use.

Well, I'll be the first to agree that correlation doesn't imply
causation, but there is a HUGE reported correlation between short
shelf-life and adulterated (excuse me, "oxygenated") gasoline. I've had
old fuel (leaded, no less) sit in a stored car for 5+ years, crank right
up and run just fine. Modern oxygenated gasoline will barely make it a
year, if that.  As I said before, there's only a limited supply of air
in a reasonably sealed storage can or gasoline tank with controlled
pressure/vacuum relief venting, so unless the fuel is carrying the
oxygen itself, where's it going to come from?
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 19:41 GMT
e.

> Well, I'll be the first to agree that correlation doesn't imply
> causation, but there is a HUGE reported correlation between short
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> pressure/vacuum relief venting, so unless the fuel is carrying the
> oxygen itself, where's it going to come from?

You introduce air each time you fill the tank.  The gasoline in the storage
tanks at the service station have some small traces of air in them

For a polymerization reaction to occur, you only need traces of the
oxidizer.
Parts per million levels are enough.  And air contains about 210,000 parts
per million oxygen.

I think you are observing the phenomenon correctly, but the reason
for what you are observing may be a little more complicated.

The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different from
unoxygenated fuel.  This could be one issue.
If alcohol bearing fuels allow more water entrainment, this can lead to the
formation of emulsions, and in some cases may even allow microbiological
activity.  (You remember the old wet kerosene 'sour' smell?  Bacteria, more
accurately fungi, can cause this.)  Also, water can carry the metallic
catalysts
(like copper traces) easier than gasoline can do it.

Often a shelf life of no more than 6 months is recommended for gasoline of
any type.  If kept clean and sterile and dry and cool and contained, it
should
last a lot longer than that, but in the real world, things tend to turn to
crap in
a hurry.
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 21:49 GMT
> e.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You introduce air each time you fill the tank.

Not an issue. We're talking about a STORED tank full of fuel. Not opened
for years. Yes, the air that's IN there can oxidize fuel, but its a
limited amount (remember it takes 14x as much air as fuel to fully
oxidize it).

> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different from
> unoxygenated fuel.  This could be one issue.

I've never heard that. Why should it be different? Any documentation?

> If alcohol bearing fuels allow more water entrainment, this can lead to the
> formation of emulsions, and in some cases may even allow microbiological
> activity.  (You remember the old wet kerosene 'sour' smell?  Bacteria, more
> accurately fungi, can cause this.)  Also, water can carry the metallic
> catalysts
> (like copper traces) easier than gasoline can do it.

You may well be right about the mechanism- I'm an engineer, not a
chemist (dammit, Jim!) but the key point is that alcohol adulterants
contribute to the premature breakdown of gasoline in a significant way.

> Often a shelf life of no more than 6 months is recommended for gasoline of
> any type.  If kept clean and sterile and dry and cool and contained, it
> should
> last a lot longer than that, but in the real world, things tend to turn to
> crap in
> a hurry.

And in a lot bigger hurry when the gasoline is crapped up with
oxygenates to start with.
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2005 22:27 GMT
>> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different
>> from unoxygenated fuel.  This could be one issue.
>
> I've never heard that. Why should it be different? Any documentation?

I'm sceptical of this claim. My understanding is that the oxygenate
(ethanol, MTBE, ETBE, TAME...) is added to the gasoline very close to the
retail distribution level, *not* during manufacture. Certainly this is how
it was done in the Denver-metro area right from the start in 1988. The
reasons for this, as I understand it, are that oxygenated fuel has a much
shorter shelf life than non-oxygenated fuel, different regions
require/permit/prohibit different types and amounts of oxygenate, and
gasoline with alcohol in it tends to accumulate contaminants (water, dirt)
from each vessel and transport pipe it encounters at a greater rate than
gasoline without alcohol.

The study at http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/ap/down/oxyfuelstudy.PDF states
"Both the non-oxygenated and oxygenated test fuels used in the study
utilized the same base stock.  These fuels were refined locally and
considered typical of this refinery based on the base stock common to both
fuels.  The oxygenated fuel selected was a 10% ethanol blend because
ethanol has been used in 95% of the fuel distributed for the required
oxygenated fuel program during the past several winters in Denver."

> the key point is that alcohol adulterants contribute to the premature
> breakdown of gasoline in a significant way.

That's one of the key points. Another one: Significantly increased
formaldehyde (+19%) and acetaldehyde (+160%) emissions:
http://www.cudenver.edu/~landerso/No476.pdf

And here's one that makes especially good reading:
http://www.fumento.com/bomis1.html
HLS@nospam.nix - 21 Dec 2005 02:34 GMT
> >> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be different
> >> from unoxygenated fuel.  This could be one issue.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> from each vessel and transport pipe it encounters at a greater rate than
> gasoline without alcohol.

Key word is SHOULD.  Alcohol enriched fuels work better when certain
feedstocks
are used.  If alcohol is not added, other hydrocarbon distributions work
better.  Now,
most likely the fuel merchants pay little attention to SHOULD.  I don't
doubt that
they just dose the alcohol into what they have chosen to sell.

Yes, there is documentation on the practice of formulating oxygenates
differently
from pure hydrocarbons.  You can find a nice writeup on gasoline, as well as
a
decent bibliography, online at

http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/cars/gasoline.html

An university library should have a number of books on fuels and fuel
additives.

Chemically, I see no reason for oxygenated additives to decrease the life of
gasoline
directly, but the addition of alcohols, etc, can certainly increase the
water (and
therefore maybe grit, metal ions, etc) contamination as I mentioned earlier.

Alcohols and ethers, under most common conditions, do not enter into
reactions with
hydrocarbons.  Particularly, they do not directly oxidize them.  IF oxygen
is present,
ethers can form ether peroxides.  Ether peroxides can be explosive if
concentrated
and evaporated to dryness, neither of which is likely in gasoline.  Ether
peroxides are
effective as polymerization initiators, as is the oxygen alone.  So ethers
are not the
cause of gunking, but oxygen is the precursor.  Antioxidants in the fuel can
prevent
this reaction from happening.

If kept clean and dry, then I see no real problem.
HLS@nospam.nix - 21 Dec 2005 02:39 GMT
> That's one of the key points. Another one: Significantly increased
> formaldehyde (+19%) and acetaldehyde (+160%) emissions:
> http://www.cudenver.edu/~landerso/No476.pdf

Certainly methanol and ethanol are precursors for formaldehyde
and acetaldehyde.  It has been my understanding that this is a problem
only if the catalytic convertor is not up to temperature or not functioning
as it should.

Formaldehyde is, without doubt, a carcinogen at certain levels.  The
company I used to work for made up to 800 tons of formaldehyde per
day, and though it formed the basis for some of our products and we
wanted to be protective of it, there was no doubt that long term exposure
to fairly low levels of formaldehyde caused increased incidence of cancer.

Acetaldehyde, since it is also highly reactive to tissue, is also a material
to be watched, although for years it was given, as paraldehyde in water
solution, as a calmative medicine.

> And here's one that makes especially good reading:
> http://www.fumento.com/bomis1.html
Hugo Schmeisser - 21 Dec 2005 04:26 GMT
> >> The gasoline feedstock for oxygenated fuel should normally be
> different >> from unoxygenated fuel.  This could be one issue.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (ethanol, MTBE, ETBE, TAME...) is added to the gasoline very close to
> the retail distribution level, not during manufacture.

What I've come across in the last few days confirms your understanding.

I was digging up MSDS sheets from various oil companies, and somewhere
along the line I encountered this exact thing. I cannot now remember
where I found it, but it was stated explicitly that ethanol and other
oxygenates are NOT added during manufacture, but are added much later
on. The reason given was to avoid deterioration of the fuel.
Bret Ludwig - 20 Dec 2005 04:25 GMT
> Your car. You should be a good little consumer and get a new car. Everyone
> wants a new car. Anyone who doesn't must be a terrorist, or at least a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You can look forward to driveability problems, reduced fuel economy, and
> fuel system component failures.

Bullshit.

Rebuild it right like the factory should have in the first place , and
it will be alcohol-proof.
Nate Nagel - 20 Dec 2005 10:28 GMT
>>Your car. You should be a good little consumer and get a new car. Everyone
>>wants a new car. Anyone who doesn't must be a terrorist, or at least a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Rebuild it right like the factory should have in the first place , and
> it will be alcohol-proof.

Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
alcohol won't be running at stoichiometric anymore; it will need to be
richened up to run correctly.  And then, of course, it will run like
sh.t on regular gas, if you can find any.

nate

Signature

replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
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Scott Dorsey - 20 Dec 2005 15:49 GMT
>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
>alcohol won't be running at stoichiometric anymore; it will need to be
>richened up to run correctly.  And then, of course, it will run like
>sh.t on regular gas, if you can find any.

Yes, but that has to be done on a regular basis anyway, because fuel
content varies so much between summer and winter.  There's a little
mixture control screw there; don't be afraid to turn it.  That's what
it's for.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

N8N - 20 Dec 2005 17:06 GMT
> >Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
> >alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it's for.
> --scott

The mixture screws only adjust the mixture at idle.  At wider throttle
openings, the idle air bleed screws are fairly insignificant in the
grand scheme of things, and the mixture is determined by the sizes of
the jets and metering rods.  So if you're running a stock carburetor on
a 30 year old car, it likely is not running as well as it used to, even
if everything is in top condition and adjusted to spec.

nate
Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:09 GMT
>>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
>>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it's for.
> --scott

Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture
screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with
the throttle closed all the time? Didn't think so.
Scott Dorsey - 20 Dec 2005 17:23 GMT
>>>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
>>>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with
>the throttle closed all the time? Didn't think so.

Sorry, I am used to airplanes, which have indeed a mixture control as
well as an idle setpoint.  So you're telling me that I'd need to drill
out the jets (or install smaller ones) to change the mixture?  What do
people in Denver do?
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Steve - 20 Dec 2005 17:55 GMT
>>>>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
>>>>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> people in Denver do?
> --scott

All the major carburetor makers used to provide a range of jets,
enrichment valves (aka power valves) and/or metering rods to adjust the
mixture at idle, WOT, etc. Carter (now Edelbrock) and Holley still do
for their performance 4-bbl carbs. Carter carbs are probably the easiest
to do a minor mixture change on because you can pop off two small covers
(on 4-bbl models) and change to a thinner metering rod (to enrich) or
thicker (to lean). The problem is that you may not have the right
jet/rod combo, so you might have to open the carb and change the jet to
get the right setup. Holleys require opening the float bowls to change
jets, but its fairly simple- although messy. Older 2-bbl carbs and all
of the "smog era" carbs are much harder to get jets and other parts for
these days.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 01:49 GMT
> >>Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture
> >>screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> of the "smog era" carbs are much harder to get jets and other parts for
> these days.

For holleys there are aftermarket blocks that take Weber parts and
make tuning much easier. Q-Jets use metering rods. Switch to a more
tuneable carb and you will be happier, or convert to MegaSquirt EFI
which you can program with an old DOS laptop.
Steve - 21 Dec 2005 16:19 GMT
>>>>Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture
>>>>screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>  For holleys there are aftermarket blocks that take Weber parts

Weber parts? Never heard of that, since Weber is (was) part of
Carter/Federal Mogul that would have been like GM buying crankshafts
from Chrysler. Barry Grant and others make aftermarket parts for Holleys
(and outright Holley-clones with internal improvements).

>and
> make tuning much easier. Q-Jets use metering rods. Switch to a more
> tuneable carb and you will be happier, or convert to MegaSquirt EFI
> which you can program with an old DOS laptop.

All good ideas, but in some areas that will run you afoul of emissions
laws that require all ORIGINAL emissions equipment to be in place.
Stupid, yes, because you can certainly make a car actually run much
cleaner than 1970s emissions systems... but then most emissions laws
that apply to cars after they're sold ARE stupid.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 23:32 GMT
> >  For holleys there are aftermarket blocks that take Weber parts
>
> Weber parts? Never heard of that, since Weber is (was) part of
> Carter/Federal Mogul that would have been like GM buying crankshafts
> from Chrysler. Barry Grant and others make aftermarket parts for Holleys
> (and outright Holley-clones with internal improvements).

Key word: Aftermarket.
N8N - 20 Dec 2005 23:11 GMT
> >>>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
> >>>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> out the jets (or install smaller ones) to change the mixture?  What do
> people in Denver do?

Generally, mfgrs. set up carbs for sea level by default, and for high
altitude locations they would provide dealers with high altitude jet
kits to retrofit into the carburetors (or they could be ordered that
way from the factory, if it was known that the vehicle would be
operated at high altitudes.)  I guess if you went from LA to Denver you
would have had to stop somewhere along the way and have your carb
rejetted.

nate
Steve - 21 Dec 2005 16:14 GMT
>>>>>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
>>>>>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> nate

Only if you planned to stay a long time. Carbureted cars were tolerant
enough to run a tad rich for weeks or months at a time at higher
elevations. In fact, most cars from ~73 onward ran BETTER if taken from
low to high altitude, because they were jetted too lean (to control HC
and CO emissions) from the factory.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 02:55 GMT
<<snip>>

> Have you ever actually worked on a carburetor? That "little mixture
> screw" doesn't do ANYTHING except at idle. Do you drive your car with
> the throttle closed all the time? Didn't think so.

The reason precisely sized parts like jets, power valves, metering
rods, needles and emulsion tubes are used is so you can figure out what
a given engine needs once and repeat the setup. Hilborn uses pills and
Cummins PT uses buttons.

The Fish carburetor was set up by a twist screw like the idle circuit
on a regular auto carb. Upside: tuning easy. Downside: destroying
valves and pistons easy. EGT gauges would have made Fish more
practical, but most Fishes were bought by idiots and often never used.
Don Stauffer - 21 Dec 2005 15:05 GMT
>>Balls.  Any vehicle with a carburetor has to be *tuned* to the amount of
>>alcohol used in the fuel.  A vehicle running a fuel with 10% or more
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it's for.
> --scott

On most American carburetors for the last half century, the mixture
screw was only for the IDLE mixture.  Changing the off-idle mixture
requires new jets or changing float level.  I doubt if the float level
adjustment is sufficient for LOTS of ethanol, such as E-85, but might be
sufficient for 10-20% alcohol.
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2005 19:38 GMT
Bret Ludwig wrote:

> <Bullshit>

Hey, lookit there. Baron von Credibility is back to show us all how much
he knows.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 02:50 GMT
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
> > <Bullshit>
>
> Hey, lookit there. Baron von Credibility is back to show us all how much
> he knows.

You are Professor Defeatist. I love alcohol precisely because it makes
you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol.
Helping the farmers is a side benefit.
N8N - 21 Dec 2005 03:05 GMT
> > Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol.
> Helping the farmers is a side benefit.

you *can't* solve the problem without closed loop engine controls, and
believe it or not, some of us still have vehicles that old and don't
want to be bothered to retrofit FI...

nate
Daniel J. Stern - 21 Dec 2005 04:38 GMT
> you *can't* solve the problem without closed loop engine controls

...and closed-loop engine controls *DON'T* solve the problem, they just
compensate for it -- at a cost.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 06:41 GMT
> >  You are Professor Defeatist. I love alcohol precisely because it makes
> > you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> believe it or not, some of us still have vehicles that old and don't
> want to be bothered to retrofit FI...

You can use E85 or M85 without closed loop controls as long as you
tune for that fuel. You could gat a carb set up with two sets of
metering and have a pull knob to switch, if there were a market for it.

There's a good book out on this that is several years old, John Ware
Lincoln is the author. I think you should get a copy and read it.

Ethanol can be produced from ag products that are largely wasted now
and methanol can be cheaply made from high sulfur coal. You have to
have the market first.
N8N - 21 Dec 2005 13:30 GMT
> > >  You are Professor Defeatist. I love alcohol precisely because it makes
> > > you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have alcohol.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  You can use E85 or M85 without closed loop controls as long as you
> tune for that fuel.

Right, but "tune" doesn't involve turning some screws, it involves
buying parts that probably most vehicle owners don't know where to
obtain and also some trial and error not to mention some time with an
exhaust sniffer and dyno if you really want to get everything dialed in
just so.

> You could gat a carb set up with two sets of
> metering and have a pull knob to switch, if there were a market for it.

That's a big if.

>  There's a good book out on this that is several years old, John Ware
> Lincoln is the author. I think you should get a copy and read it.
>
>  Ethanol can be produced from ag products that are largely wasted now
> and methanol can be cheaply made from high sulfur coal. You have to
> have the market first.

Your definition of "cheaply" is different from the rest of ours, I
imagine.  Why would I want to spend money and time to convert my
vehicle to run on a fuel that is less energy dense, more expensive, and
more corrosive than regular old gasoline?  Not to mention that the
parts to do said conversion aren't even available (unless you want to
rejet to run *only* on alcohols)  From a consumer's perspective that
sounds like a bad deal to me.

nate
Hugo Schmeisser - 21 Dec 2005 04:33 GMT
> > Bret Ludwig wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> makes you solve the problem. That's why ALL the gasoline should have
> alcohol.  Helping the farmers is a side benefit.

If you wish to help farmers, beggaring non-farmers is a poor way to do
it (tho' it's done all the time anyway...).

Ethanol is a pork-barrel fraud. Like most recycling, the viability of
its economics is completely dependent on robbing Peter to pay Paul. Not
only that, but Paul must be robbed from one pocket in order to put some
of the money back into his own other pocket so he will think he's
paying a competitive price for the stuff.
Daniel J. Stern - 21 Dec 2005 04:38 GMT
Bret Ludwig wrote:

> I love alcohol

Well, *that* certainly explains a great deal about the, er, cogence and
lucidity of your posts.
Steve - 21 Dec 2005 16:25 GMT
>>>Bret Ludwig wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If you wish to help farmers, beggaring non-farmers is a poor way to do
> it (tho' it's done all the time anyway...).

If you want to help farmers, get the government to facilitate EXPORT of
surplus crops for profit, rather than impede exports. American farmers
could damn near end world hunger, if the distribution system wasn't
broken (deliberately by various national governments and otherwise). But
don't expect them to do it for free- make it profitable for them.
Bret Ludwig - 21 Dec 2005 23:41 GMT
<<snip>>

> If you want to help farmers, get the government to facilitate EXPORT of
> surplus crops for profit, rather than impede exports. American farmers
> could damn near end world hunger, if the distribution system wasn't
> broken (deliberately by various national governments and otherwise). But
> don't expect them to do it for free- make it profitable for them.

No. Let the rest of the world feed itself. Let American farmers earn a
decent profit, by having the organization and discipline not to
overproduce. Tax the sh.t out of high-tech petrochemicals and go back
to a higher-labor-content, higher-quality, more expensive product-the
cost of the food has little to do with what you pay at the supermarket.

The Agriculture Secretary under Carter was asked what it would take to
preserve the family farm. He told the truth: ban any tractor bigger
than a 9N Ford.

Zimbabwe is the prime and most blatant example of why Africans starve.
Either go in, slaughter Mugabe and recolonialize Rhodesia, and
sterilize all males with an 80 or under IQ...or fence them in and let
nature take its course.

I wipe my a.s with Bono and the Gateses, who are in fact the creators
of the problem. Let the big die-off happen-once.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 24 Dec 2005 12:55 GMT
> <<snip>>
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> to a higher-labor-content, higher-quality, more expensive product-the
> cost of the food has little to do with what you pay at the supermarket.

The only problem for this is that it's more valuable for us here in the
United States to have the Central American countries NOT slash-n-burn
their jungle into farmland.  By sending them food it relieves the pressure
on them to do this and leaves the jungle alone, which we can then extract
medicines and other products from that can only be produced in the
jungle.

It is also cheaper for to grow food here then ship it to desert in the
Mid East than for them to irrigate their desert and grow food there.
It also helps to keep trade balanced since we want their oil.

>  The Agriculture Secretary under Carter was asked what it would take to
> preserve the family farm. He told the truth: ban any tractor bigger
> than a 9N Ford.

Government subsidies to small farmers take a larger bite out of the
taxpayers than subsidies to giant agribusiness farms.  The truth is that
it would be cheaper for the taxpayer to just let all the family farms go
bankrupt and be sold to the giant business farms.

>  Zimbabwe is the prime and most blatant example of why Africans starve.
> Either go in, slaughter Mugabe and recolonialize Rhodesia, and
> sterilize all males with an 80 or under IQ...or fence them in and let
> nature take its course.

Africa has so many problems because the Europeans went in and drew
boundaries with no consideration for existing tribal boundaries, and
European missionaries went in and pushed Christianity onto the natives
with no consideration for the existing religions.  They basically engaged
in a wholesale attempt to destroy the existing culture.  That sort of thing
isn't happening anymore but now you have a mishmash where some
people in those countries are modern, and want to live in a modern culture,
and the rest of them are foundering around.  They no longer have the
tribal cultures intact, yet have no history of a Westernized culture
to learn from.

Ted
Bret Ludwig - 25 Dec 2005 04:53 GMT
> >  No. Let the rest of the world feed itself. Let American farmers earn a
> > decent profit, by having the organization and discipline not to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> medicines and other products from that can only be produced in the
> jungle.

There is enough land for jungle and agriculture there if it is used
properly. Jungle also produces exotic woods which are very valuable but
the corrupt governments make proper use very hard. Slash and burn
agriculture is a short term proposition.

> It is also cheaper for to grow food here then ship it to desert in the
> Mid East than for them to irrigate their desert and grow food there.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> tribal cultures intact, yet have no history of a Westernized culture
> to learn from.

Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is
their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition
but a major component is genetic, which you are not going to hear very
often.

This is not to say all Africans are stupid. They are however very
tribal, and some tribes are intrinsically more capable of living in
modern types of societies. I agree missionaries were a very destructive
species to be introduced for many reasons.

"Straightening Africa out" is a fool's errand. The human situation
will take centuries to evolve, as Europe did from the time of Rome to
the late Renaissance, and in my opinion our goals should be that of
Gene Roddenberry's Prime Directive, modified by a discreet but forcible
protection of African wildlife and other unique features from the base
expediencies of the Africans as they evolve. The liberal Roddenberry
would have been appalled, probably, but he's dead and we are not.
M.M. - 25 Dec 2005 05:49 GMT
> ...
>  Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is
> their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition
> but a major component is genetic, which you are not going to hear very
> often.
> ...

Where on earth did you get that?

Have you ever been to Africa, sub-Saharan or otherwise?
gfulton - 25 Dec 2005 13:35 GMT
>> ...
>>  Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Have you ever been to Africa, sub-Saharan or otherwise?

I worked there.  Gambia, 1977.  No way was that true in that  area.  If
everybody had been that dense, I'm sure  I'd have noticed.  I think this guy
is full of it.

Garrett Fulton
Daniel J. Stern - 25 Dec 2005 15:48 GMT
>>  Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is
>> their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition
>> but a major component is genetic, which you are not going to hear very
>> often.

> I worked there.  Gambia, 1977.  No way was that true in that area.  If
> everybody had been that dense, I'm sure I'd have noticed.  I think this
> guy is full of it.

Just your standard, garden-variety racist.
Bret Ludwig - 25 Dec 2005 20:39 GMT
> >>  Sub-Saharan Africa has a lot of problems but one of the biggest is
> >> their average IQ is about 70. Part of this is caused by poor nutrition
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Just your standard, garden-variety racist.

Diversity v. Freedom, Chapter CLXXXVII: The Case Of Andrew Fraser

By Steve Sailer

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your
right to say it."

If Voltaire were alive today, he'd be spinning in his grave.

The latest collision between "diversity," the highest ideal of the
present age, and such outmoded concepts as academic freedom has a
VDARE.com contributor, Australian law professor Drew Fraser, as the
victim.

For having the temerity to write a letter to a local newspaper.

"A Sydney university has banned a controversial law professor from
teaching after he publicly aired his views on non-whites and Africans
in Australia. Canadian-born Associate Professor Andrew Fraser was
cautioned by Macquarie University last week over a letter he wrote to a
suburban newspaper...University vice-chancellor Professor Di Yerbury
responded with a three-page memo to staff announcing that Professor
Fraser would not teach until further notice..." [Outspoken Academic
banned from teaching, Tamara Mclean, News.com.au, July 29
2005][VDARE.COM note: The original letter, published in the Parramatta
Sun, is not online. Professor Fraser posted the text of it as a comment
on MajorityRights.com (scroll down)]

Connoisseurs of irony will treasure the university's justification:

"Professor Fraser yesterday rejected an offer by the university to buy
out his contract and launched a bitter attack on Vice-Chancellor Di
Yerbury, describing her as an 'intellectual coward'. Professor Yerbury
responded by suspending Professor Fraser from teaching, citing a report
in The Australian yesterday in which he claimed a group called Smash
Racism was planning to disrupt his classes... 'We have a duty to act
decisively to protect his safety and that of others on campus,' she
said. Professor Yerbury told The Weekend Australian late yesterday that
she would seek legal advice if he made further unauthorized public
statements.... Yerbury said she was not bothered by Professor Fraser's
personal attack on her. 'I will wear that as a badge of honour,'
she said. 'I made the apology because I was distressed and ashamed he
had associated the university with views which so fundamentally
contravened its position.'  [Lecture ban for 'racist' professor ,
Greg Roberts, The Weekend Australian, July 30, 2005]

Okay, let me see if I have this straight: The university must keep
their professor from saying that immigration raises the risk of
criminal violence-to safeguard him from criminal violence from
immigrants and their supporters?

R-i-g-h-t... [Email Macquarie University Vice-Chancellor Di Yerbury].

Perhaps not coincidentally, this was happening at the same time that
police were arresting several East African immigrants in the attempted
July 21 terrorist bombings in London.

In effect, Fraser is being prevented from expressing views on
politics-although professors pontificating about politics is a
much-loved feature of public life throughout the Anglosphere.

So what about Professor Fraser's statement that Africans tend to have
low IQs and high testosterone levels?

Here at VDARE.com, unlike at almost every other outlet (and,
apparently, Macquarie University), our first question is not whether
it's politically correct to say something. Instead we ask: Is it true?

And it is true. Africans do tend to have low IQs.

The average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans in Africa has been studied many
times over many decades. It keeps coming out almost two standard
deviations below that of Europeans and nearly two and half standard
deviations below that of Northeast Asians.

Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen's landmark book IQ and the Wealth of
Nations (2002) summarizes 32 published studies of representative
samples of individuals in black African countries: No researchers found
an African average national IQ higher than 80.

Of course, a selective immigration system-which we don't
have-could mitigate part of this IQ shortfall by picking unusually
talented applicants, of which there are certainly some from all
countries.

For example, a friend of mine who was getting his Ph.D. at UCLA came
from a family of nine children in Cameroon in West Africa. Eight of the
nine earned advanced degrees from Western universities, and the oldest
was a surgeon and oncologist who had shared in the prestigious Albert
Lasker Award for Clinical Medical Research.

(Naturally, the West's brain-draining of Africa's smartest people just
contributes to the continent's poverty. But that's another story.)

Here in America, the massive National Longitudinal Study of Youth found
that the mean IQ of blacks who were the children of immigrants was 90,
about five points above the norm for African-Americans. The logic of
regression toward the mean suggests that their immigrant parents
probably averaged even higher IQs.

One little-discussed reason why American political and media elites in
Washington D.C. favor immigration so much more than the rest of us is
because they prefer the fairly well-educated, polite, and hard-working
immigrants from Africa's best families who flock to the D.C. area over
the capital's native-born African-Americans, whom our leaders privately
view as ignorant, surly, lazy, and crime-prone.

(Naturally, importing immigrants to out-compete our black fellow
citizens doesn't solve their problems. It just makes them worse. But
that's another story too.)

Unfortunately, the African immigrants' kids often assimilate toward the
values expressed in the most charismatic force in African-American
culture: gangsta rap.

Will the children of African immigrants to Australia hip-hop down the
same disastrous trail? The Israeli example is not encouraging.
According to the Associated Press, the young Falasha Jews whose parents
were airlifted from Ethiopia have found

"an unlikely source of solace, pride and identity-America's black
culture. The fact that most of these Ethiopian teens have never visited
the United States or even met a black American doesn't prevent them
from embracing rap music and hip-hop fashion, along with sometimes
misguided stereotypes gleaned from MTV, movies and news reports."

What about Fraser's contention that blacks have more testosterone on
average?

This hasn't been studied as much as IQ. But the scientific evidence
supports Fraser once again.

Andrew Sullivan, a prescription testosterone user, has written a long
article in the New York Times Magazine (The He Hormone, April 02, 2000)
about the powerful effect of his prescription testosterone injections
on his behavior. In it, Sullivan pointed out:

"Even more unsettling is the racial gap in testosterone. Several solid
studies, published in publications like Journal of the National Cancer
Institute, show that black men have on average 3 to 19 percent more
testosterone than white men. This is something to consider when we're
told that black men dominate certain sports because of white racism or
economic class rather than black skill."

The relevant question is not just hormone levels in the bloodstream,
but the varying power of the male hormone receptors. Men with stronger
androgen receptors tend to behave as if they have higher levels of
testosterone and other male hormones. A team of geneticists led by Rick
Kittles of Howard U. documented that race accounts for 20 percent of
the variations in the gene that controls the strength of the body's
androgen receptors. Men of African descent tend toward the high end,
men of East Asian descent toward the low end, whites generally near the
middle.

Keep in mind that 80% of the variation observed was within racial
groups. Which is about what you'd expect from observing the world
around you. In every racial group, there exists a wide variety of
physical and personality types among men, from the most hyper-masculine
to the most gentle.

Still, few who watch sports on television, follow Olympic running
results, or examine interracial marriage patterns, will be surprised
that blacks on the whole score highest on those androgen receptor gene
alleles associated with greater masculinity.

Let's discuss the larger issue: Why is truth-telling important? What's
so useful about free speech? Wouldn't it be better just to bury our
heads in the sand about things like race and IQ?

No-because everything that is true is causally connected to something
else that is true. In contrast, lies, ignorance, and wishful thinking
are dead ends.

If, as National Review's Austin Bramwell kindly suggested recently,
my articles are more interesting and insightful than those of the
better-paid purveyors of the conventional wisdom, the main reason is
simply because I follow the chains of cause and effect wherever they
lead.

The promotion of ignorance is cruel, not kind, because facts are useful
while twaddle is just a dead end.

Two examples:
bullet    prostate cancer appears to correlate positively with male
hormone  and receptor levels, so it's not surprising that

"African-American men are at substantially higher risk of developing
and dying from prostate cancer than Caucasians in the United States.
African-American men living in the San Francisco area have a risk of
developing prostate cancer that is 120 times that of Chinese men living
in China... A systematic study of black men in Nigeria found that
prostate cancer incidence was actually much higher than previously
reported and may be as high as that noted among black men in the US
(Osegbe 1997, Prostate cancer in Nigerians: facts and nonfacts, Journal
of Urology, 157(4):1340-1343.)."
bullet    Tony Blair and Sir Bob Geldof did their considerable all to make
African poverty a big deal at the recent meeting of the G8 countries.
But little good will come of it-for the simple reason that nobody in
polite society is allowed to talk about sub-Saharan Africa's most
fundamental problem-its average IQ of around 70.

Because African-Americans score around 85, and they share about 80% of
their genes with their African cousins, it seems likely that the
difficult environment in Africa (malnutrition, disease, disorder,
poverty, and so forth) depresses the typical African's IQ substantially
below his or her genetic potential.

Perhaps the most cost-effective way to raise IQs in Africa is to attack
the IQ-lowering medical syndromes caused by a lack of micronutrients,
such as "endemic cretinism," which stems from too little iodine in the
diet. Western countries started fortifying salt with iodine and flour
with iron back before WWII, and that quickly eliminated what had been a
substantial problem here.

UNICEF issued an important study of poor countries' micronutrient
deficiencies last year. I wrote in VDARE.com about what we could be
doing to help the Third World raise its average IQ, here and here.

But almost no one else in the press was interested-because they know
they will get in trouble, like Professor Fraser, if they mention
African IQ.

See, "nice" people think it's more moral to let endemic cretinism and
the like ravage Africa than to bring up IQ in polite society.

Only EVIL people try to get the world to notice the problem...and do
something about it.

But we can't make problems go away by pretending they don't exist.

As Enoch Powell pointed out in his continually-denounced but
never-refuted 1968 immigration speech:

"The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against
preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which
are deeply rooted in human nature.... Above all, people are disposed to
mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring
troubles: 'if only', they love to think, 'if only people wouldn't
talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen.'

And Powell's conclusion is equally valid today:

"All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great
betrayal."
Ted Mittelstaedt - 29 Dec 2005 11:40 GMT
Oh good Lord.  What a load of claptrap.

There are two very good reasons that Blacks in the US predominate in
sports.  First is economic, it's well documented that there's a higher
percentage
of poor blacks than poor whites, and sports are one of the few areas that
someone with a dirt poor background can use to better themselves.

Every High School in the land has at least a half-million dollar sporting
field and gym constructed, yet how many of them put a tenth of
that into music?  The US has taught the poor children very well that
if you want your college education to be fully paid for, go into sports,
not into music.

Second, the majority of blacks in the US today are slave descendents.
150-200
years ago when they were bringing slave blacks over on slaving ships,
conditions were appalling and only the strongest and healthiest people
survived the journey.  It was a form of viscious natural selection that was
further enhanced when the white Southern plantation owners - desiring
more strong slaves - forbid the weaker slaves to have children and
encouraged
the stronger ones to have lots of children (which they could sell of course)
When your ancestors were the strongest of the group, those genes will
be passed down.  Obviously, that's not going to continue forever, and the
McDonalds and other fast food places have been working overtime to
make the blacks today as fat slobs as the whites today are.  Some equality!

But as far as IQ goes, there's no supporting evidence that it's something
that can be passed down through genetics.  People thought Albert
Einstein's children would be geniuses, they wern't.  If IQ was genetic
then all government would be monarchies, as the most intelligent
people would have sought each other out thousands of years ago and
we would have hyper-intelligent families that would run all the governments
today.

Sure, you can damage IQ with poor diet.  But
it's not like it takes a particularly high IQ to function in modern society
in most jobs today.  The truth of the matter is that cultural
indoctorination
is going to outweigh raw IQ every time.  When you take a child with a
high IQ and bring them up believing the kind of claptrap that so many of
the fundies seem to be doing - like the world was created in 7 days and
that kind of horse pattoties - you are destroying their ability to ever make
any use of that high IQ just as surely as if you fed them a bad diet.

And, even if you raise a kid right and teach them solid science and
how things work, and they have a high IQ, if they are lazy-a.ses then
that IQ and knowledge won't amount to sh.t on a shingle either.  Someone
with a lower IQ and lots of motivation will kick the sh.t out of someone
with a higher IQ and no motivation, every time.  And there's a tremendous
number of people running around today with high IQ's, decent education,
and so little motivation you couldn't trust them with a burnt-out match.

The people that put out the kind of claptrap that Bret posted here are
nothing more than Aryan Nation wannnabes.  You look at the skin
color of all those people writing that kind of racist sh.t.  They are all
whites, and never do they say anything bad about people of their own
skin color.

Ted
norm - 15 Jan 2006 20:02 GMT
I think we need a caucasian testosterone college fund to even things out a
bit.

> Oh good Lord.  What a load of claptrap.
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> Ted
Hugo Schmeisser - 20 Dec 2005 04:20 GMT
> Hi all,
>
> Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold
> to be at least 10% ethanol.  I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%.

Not actually required until 2013.
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/239/791.html

Excerpt:
"Subd. 1a.    Minimum ethanol content required.  (a)
Except as provided in subdivisions 10 to 14, on August 30, 2013,
and thereafter, a person responsible for the product shall
ensure that all gasoline sold or offered for sale in Minnesota
must contain at least 20 percent denatured ethanol by volume.

Interestingly, the law contains liability protection for fuel sellers
in case the new gas damages cars:
"(c) No motor fuel shall be deemed to be a defective product
by virtue of the fact that the motor fuel is formulated or
blended pursuant to the requirements of paragraph (a) under any
theory of liability except for simple or willful negligence or
fraud."

Jeez...
Ted Mittelstaedt - 20 Dec 2005 11:30 GMT
> Hi all,
>
> Wisconsin is probably going to pass legislation requiring all gas sold
> to be at least 10% ethanol.  I have heard Minnesota has gone to 20%.
> The oil companies opposed the legislation.

Oregon does 10% for winter gasoline, the DEQ says it cuts down on smog.
While I'm not an atmospheric chemist I still don't see how 10% alcohol cuts
smog down in the winter.

Ted
Don Stauffer - 20 Dec 2005 15:01 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> rules.
> .

The legislatures are talking about their belief.  The problem I see is
that the 20% called for by Minnesota voids the warranty on my new car. I
have yet to have a Mn legislature respond to me on THIS problem.
Stephen H - 20 Dec 2005 18:14 GMT
Wow, Just had a tech class covering this (in part)
   The case study was a 2004 Ford Escape (I believe-resource is on my
toolbox at work) Customer complained of running  poorly at first and poor
gas mileage, now it runs OK but mileage still poor. Was at the dealer twice
they say everything's ok.
Short term and long term fuel trim looks good on a standard scanner (about
11%), but on a Ford NGT scanner the Rear fuel trim assed another 11 percent
to the equation.  As the car is adding gas by the positive fuel trim
readings, that means the car sees a lean condition. Filter and pump test
good, so the shop runs a alcohol test on the fuel. 20%!  California says no
more than 10%
Alcohol is best used in higher combustion engines and I believe he said
takes twice as much to get the same bang per gallon as gas?
The only car that can currently run on either gas or any mixture is a Saab
with a turbo. It has a sensor that reads the mixture and adjust the turbo to
run for whatever it sees. 100% gas about 140 HP,- 100% Methanol about 180HP.
The interesting thing to see is that based upon the rate each fuel (or combo
of) burns at there is NO MPG increase on this car from one fuel to another.

Will be interesting to see the long term of a state mandating 20%

Signature

Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Or is this just a non event for owners of older cars.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 20:00 GMT
"Stephen H" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qSXpf.174920$qk4.93166@bgtnsc05-n

> Alcohol is best used in higher combustion engines and I believe he said
> takes twice as much to get the same bang per gallon as gas?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The interesting thing to see is that based upon the rate each fuel (or combo
> of) burns at there is NO MPG increase on this car from one fuel to another.

You probably meant high compression engines.
Alcohol does not have the specific energy content that pure hydrocarbon
fuels
do, so they could not be expected to give the same performance in
terms of economy per unit volume.

Ford representative has said that future Ford vehicles will be totally cross
compatible between gasoline and alcohol.

There is a guy (Gunnerman) who has been touting burning mixtures of water
and gasolinefor greatly increased economy and decreased emissions.   ¨
Apparently he got enough interest in his claims to get some state agencies
to back some of his studies.

There may be something of value in his claims.  In Venezuela,
Oremulsion technology was used to convert tarlike crudes to pumpable
water emulsions so that it could be produced and sent to market.

Unfortunately, it was essentially impossible to separate the water from this
¨
crude, and it had to be sold a low grade marine fuel.  As I remember the
case,
they sprayed the water laden fuel directly into the fireboxes and got about
the
same economy as if they had been spraying pure fuel oil.

Bottom line...I dont think alcohol is a good long term answer.  If we should
run out
of affordable petroleum, we are in deep caca.  I suspect that a diesel like
fuel derived
from tall oils or oil seeds might be the best renewable source of fuel,
unless we
make some significant breakthroughs in other areas.
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Dec 2005 20:10 GMT
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/fuel/a-21.htm

In case anyone is interested in the Gunnerman saga, the above link should
take you
to some quick reads.
 
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