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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 20051967 Olds Toronado died on the drive home
I parked the '67 Toronado outside jusat before the temperature got below freezing about a month ago. It was above 50 degreees, so I decided to drive it today. It started right up, just needed some power steering fluid. It ran fine all day, but started hesitating on the way to work tonight. It idled rough at stoplights, but did not stall. On the way home, it died on the highway. I don't want to have to pay a tow truck on Christmas eve! What should I check to limp it to the repair shop Monday? It has a fresh tank of gas from this morning, fluids are fine, good battery, and cranks strong. All gauges look normal. Thanks! > It ran fine all day, but started hesitating on the way to work tonight. > It idled rough at stoplights, but did not stall. On the way home, it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks! First, be very careful trying to work on it beside the road. Have a friend go with you to help. I think your most likely scenarios are (1) fuel delivery or (2) ignition. I would take my regular tools, plus a can of gasoline additive, a can of starter fluid, a new fuel filter, points and condensor, and a spark tester. Use the spark tester to see if you have a nice fat ignition spark. A car of that era probably has points and condensor, and if I did not have a hot spark, these two items are most likely candidates. A bad coil, bad center distributor wire, distributor cap and rotor, and even the run resistor to the coil can be involved. If you have spark but no attempt to fire up, have your friend try to start the car while you judiciously give it a shot of starter fluid down the air intake or directly into the carburetor. If it tries to start, you likely have a fuel delivery problem. It could be a fuel pump, a plugged fuel filter, or such. Last, if spark was good, and fuel was not the issue, you may be looking at a case where the engine jumped timing (timing chain slipped, etc). This is not a job for the roadside. > I parked the '67 Toronado outside jusat before the temperature got > below freezing about a month ago. It was above 50 degreees, so I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks! Could be nothing more than a little water in the gas. Any auto parts store will have cans of, essentially, alcohol which will absorb the water and solve the problem. A plugged fuel filter is another good candidate, easy to check on a "roadside repair." Jerry Thanks for the replies! I see gas getting into the carb, and gas poured in does nothing for starting. The points were done less than 5K mi ago by a reputable mechanic, but the coil appears original to the car. I bought a new one and (when I can get a ride), I'll try it out. > > I parked the '67 Toronado outside jusat before the temperature got > > below freezing about a month ago. It was above 50 degreees, so I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jerry > The points were done less than 5K mi ago by a reputable mechanic, Even today's most reputable mechanic is unlikely to have had the opportunity to install many sets of points in the last two decades. > but the coil appears original to the car. I bought a new one and (when > I can get a ride), I'll try it out. Um...what makes you think the coil's at fault? Buying random parts is an expensive and ineffective way of fixing cars. >> The points were done less than 5K mi ago by a reputable mechanic, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Um...what makes you think the coil's at fault? Buying random parts is an > expensive and ineffective way of fixing cars. I actually did the same thing (my corolla was missing occasionally at idle so I plopped $50 for a new coil) and it definitely was not worth it, didn't fix it. Definitely diagnose before you buy anything except the basic tune up parts previously mentioned (points, maybe cap/rotor). Was it raining? did the ignition get wet? > > The points were done less than 5K mi ago by a reputable mechanic, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Um...what makes you think the coil's at fault? Buying random parts is an > expensive and ineffective way of fixing cars. I agree with Daniel totally. You can throw a potful of money at a car by guessing. It is very simple to check and see if you are getting spark. It takes a little more time to see if you are getting it at the right timing spot, but not much. >> > The points were done less than 5K mi ago by a reputable mechanic, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> Um...what makes you think the coil's at fault? Buying random parts is an >> expensive and ineffective way of fixing cars. ============================================================ >I agree with Daniel totally. You can throw a potful of money at a car by >guessing. It is very simple to check and see if you are getting spark. >It takes a little more time to see if you are getting it at the right timing >spot, but not much. Completely TRUE, but sometimes overlooked for the sake of expediency or not having the right testing tools. But I took a guess one day to get myself home in an Old Buck. Don't remember the model, but it looked like a Tank ( military ). It was raining...I coasted into someone's driveway. They either were not home or were darn nice to let me work on my car in their driveway ;-)) Essentially, it was raining and my car sputtered and then the engine conked out. This was about 20 years ago. I had no diagnostic stuff but because of my previous experiences with distributor ignition systems, I took out some Kleenex, the only thing I had in that car with me besides maybe a screwdriver, and wiped down the inside of the distributor cap. Allah Akbar. It started right up and I went on my way. Now I saw an ignition testing kit somewhere the other day...I bet it was at Harbor Freight. I didn't buy it because I didn't think I would need it...ergo, to me at the time a complete waste of money. So the flip side of the coin is also true. Buying tools/parts you don't *think* you will need and probably won't is also throwing money away. It is hard to own a car and not *throw money away.* Lg > It is hard to own a car and not *throw money away.* I find stuff at second hand sales. My analog volt meter cost 25 cents and I've got lots of use out of it around the car and house. A pair of ramps was $5. I paid $4 for a tuneup kit (tachometer, timing light, remote starter, the non-electronic kind) and some other stuff in a box. Last fall I found a 1/2" drive swivel ratchet, a swivel driver ("breaker bar"), and a 10" extension for $7. I forget what I paid for the T-bar driver years ago. I've collected a couple of battery chargers, jack stands, old jacks, etc. over the years. And other neat stuff. I limit my scrounging to community garage sales and church rummage sales. Chasing around individual garge sales burns up too much gasoline to suit my frugal lifestyle. Church rummage sales all come at the same time in spring and fall. I sometimes go to two on Friday and three more on Saturday and still miss some. :( >> It is hard to own a car and not *throw money away.* > >I find stuff at second hand sales. My analog volt meter cost 25 cents and >I've got lots of use out of it around the car and house. IIRC you can buy a NEW Chinese voltmeter at Harbor Freight for about $3, and it has all the features of more expensive ones. Incredible, since you can't buy 1 PART for these at Radio Shack for that price. Then again, I don't know how accurate they are, but they should be accurate enough for most automotive applications. > A pair of ramps >was $5. I paid $4 for a tuneup kit (tachometer, timing light, remote [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >spring and fall. I sometimes go to two on Friday and three more on >Saturday and still miss some. :( There are some incredible bargains to be found here and there...but finding them and getting to them before somebody else does has always been a hit & miss proposition for me. Like you say, with the price of fuel being what it is.... I saw one garage sale that had such complete junk at it that (almost) the entire inventory ended up at the curb for garbage pickup the next day ;-\ If a person needs a voltmeter, they need it =now=, not maybe within the next 6 months. That's the problem with garage sales. Why some of us still use stores ;-| Lg > If a person needs a voltmeter, they need it =now=, not maybe within > the next 6 months. That's the problem with garage sales. Why some of > us still use stores ;-| That's why people tend to stock up on used bargains they might have some use for one day. :) >> If a person needs a voltmeter, they need it =now=, not maybe within >> the next 6 months. That's the problem with garage sales. Why some of >> us still use stores ;-| > >That's why people tend to stock up on used bargains they might have some >use for one day. :) At those prices, I can't argue with you. I could have bought 10 of those $3 voltmeters for $30 + 5% tax ;-\ I could have bought the ignition tester for $5.99, which is now on sale for $1.99 + 5% tax ;-| ( one model out of the 3 is available for the 1.99 price, lowered from 5.99 ). Maybe when I get some do-re-me. I need 10 voltmeters like another hole in the head, but I might go for the noid light. Not that a noid light will FIX/REPAIR anything, but it will/can show me if I have a high voltage signal going off to a plug somewhere. You have misfire on cylinder 1: from memory: no plug signal fuel injector trouble intake manifold leak The noid light can eliminate 1 of those Propane gas can identify the manifold leak The fuel injector? A stethascope and a multimeter, unless it is gunked up and leaking. If it is leaking, it is news to me since I run fuel injector cleaner through there twice a year. So... say I'll get the noid light and the stethascope. All under $10 and well worth the investment. IMO. That's not big bucks but can =save= big bucks, so it makes sense to me. Lg > So... > say I'll get the noid light and the stethascope. All under $10 and > well worth the investment. IMO. That's not big bucks but can =save= > big bucks, so it makes sense to me. > > Lg I never bought a tool that I didnt use, and that didn't save me money. I dont pee money away, but if you intend to do any sort of service at all on your car, you need tools which are compatible with the level of work you intend to perform. If the OP had wanted to, or had the money to, have his car towed into a garage and let them fix it, I doubt that he would be hitching a ride out to the freeway to try to get it started. He needs to, and wants to, do it himself, and needs to get to the grist of the matter quickly without throwing away a pot full of money on parts he guesses might be the problem. Merry Christmas all >>If a person needs a voltmeter, they need it =now=, not maybe within >>the next 6 months. That's the problem with garage sales. Why some of >>us still use stores ;-| > > That's why people tend to stock up on used bargains they might have some > use for one day. :) Roger that. I saw an old Fluke meter in a pawn shop for $25 once; I'm still using it today. I've spent more on fuses and leads than the initial purchase price :) nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > Um...what makes you think the coil's at fault? Because similar symptoms on my '59 Impala were solved with a replaced coil. But I admit I do not know what I am doing here! That's why the first thing I did when arriving home is post the question here. The replaced coil did not get the car running. Ducking for "you shouldn't be allowed to own a car" messages, I do not know where to go next to get the car out of that neighborhood. I stubbornly do not want to pay for a tow, plus I recall the feeling of self-accomplishment when I fixed the Impala. > Even today's most reputable mechanic is unlikely > to have had the opportunity to install many sets of > points in the last two decades. True, but this shop specialized in cars of this vintage. I appreciate all of the responses, even though I already own 3 voltmeters! >> Um...what makes you think the coil's at fault? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >shouldn't be allowed to own a car" messages, I do not know where to go >next to get the car out of that neighborhood. This is hard to diagnose with no visuals, test results of this and that, and so forth. What I mean is, were I in your situation, I would be looking for certain things, and posting what I did or didn't find out during my inspection/diagnostics. Just saying I put a new coil in there and it didn't fix anything...that leaves a lot of uncovered territory. Uncovered territory as in *the rest of the vehicle,* or at least the part under the hood. Nobody knows, IIRC ( excuse me if I am mistaken ), what your checklist is for the things you looked at and the results you found. I haven't kept the entire thread on my computer so might have missed that if it was posted. > I stubbornly do not want >to pay for a tow, plus I recall the feeling of self-accomplishment when >I fixed the Impala. Right. It is cold, raining, snowing *up here* in the Great Lakes region, and ego would be the last thing on my mind. Heated transportation to get from here to there would be my priority. >> Even today's most reputable mechanic is unlikely >> to have had the opportunity to install many sets of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I appreciate all of the responses, even though I already own 3 >voltmeters! And you know how to use them? Question me this: What was the ohm reading of the coil you yanked and what was the ohm reading of the new one. Lg Thanks again. Man, tough crowd. There's of course a difference between knowing how to use a DVM, and knowing *what* to test. I don't feel like I'm "replacing parts at random." Replacing the muffler or steering wheel would be random! And, I don't feel like its a BAD idea to replace the original coil on a 38-year-old car. To answer the earlier question, there was no rain or water under the hood. I haven't looked under the distributor cap. If anyone has a good checklist for me, I'm all eyes! To recap, the battery is good, there's gas getting into the carb. >Thanks again. > >Man, tough crowd. You betcha ;-) > There's of course a difference between knowing how >to use a DVM, and knowing *what* to test. I don't feel like I'm >"replacing parts at random." Replacing the muffler or steering wheel >would be random! And, I don't feel like its a BAD idea to replace the >original coil on a 38-year-old car. It isn't bad to replace the bumpers on them either. But what I'm getting at is if the resistance of the new and old coils are just about the same, that means the old coil is probably OK and not worth replacement. >To answer the earlier question, there was no rain or water under the >hood. I haven't looked under the distributor cap. If anyone has a >good checklist for me, I'm all eyes! > >To recap, the battery is good, there's gas getting into the carb. SPARK! Step 1. Take the distributor cap OFF. Step 2. Turn it upside down. With a flashlight, look for carbon traces, cracks, worn carbon terminals in the distributor cap. In fact, take a NEW distributor cap out there to the car when you return to it, and toss the old one in the trunk. Step 3. Look at the rotor for excessive charing/burning/wear at the throw-off point for the spark. In fact, take a NEW rotor out there to the car when you return to it, and toss the old one in the trunk. Step 4. Look at your centrifugal weights and with a screwdriver, make sure you have no broken springs on them and that they move freely. Step 5. Replace the capacitor on your distributor. It most likely has 1 wire coming from it, as the can screws to the negative ( metal of engine ). Step 6. Look at your points. Are they burned away? In fact, take a NEW set of points out there to the car when you return to it, and toss the old ones in the trunk. Step 7. Reassemble everything, wiped down all your wires with a dry towel ( the coil wires, the spark plug wires ) the distributor housing, dry everything in there electrical with the nice towel. Step 8. Start engine. Step 9. Check your vacuum advance diaphragm to make sure it isn't a) ruptured b) you have a vacuum to it c) when you increase the vacuum, the dwell angle changes ( see part about timing light ). Step 10 Put a timing light on your cylinder spark plug wire ( maybe cylinder 1 ) and adjust your dwell with a timing light while looking at the mark on the crankshaft pulley. 11. Drive home with a feeling of great satisfaction for a job well done. ========================================================== Now, this isn't gospel, it is just a suggestion. YMMV and all that. There is no implied or stated warranty/guarantee that any of this is going to *fix* your problem, and I assume no responsibility and/or liability when it comes to what happens when you do all of this, and if you do become injured, or if your car goes skyward at the speed of LIGHT. and all that. Lg > I don't feel like its a BAD idea to replace the original coil on a > 38-year-old car. I do, if it's working correctly. > To answer the earlier question, there was no rain or water under the > hood. I haven't looked under the distributor cap. Condensation is not your friend. > Thanks again. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > To recap, the battery is good, there's gas getting into the carb. If you look back to my original post, did you check to see if you had a nice fat spark, or not? If you DID have spark, did you try the starter fluid, or not? I dont care if you think you see gasoline entering the carburetor. What have you actually tried systematically, and what have you observed? (Or not) >> > The points were done less than 5K mi ago by a reputable mechanic, >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It takes a little more time to see if you are getting it at the right timing > spot, but not much. Given that the car was sitting for a while, and it was mild when last run, this might simply be a case of 'stale' gas or gas not formulated for current weather conditions. The gas companies adjust the mix for vapor pressure four times a year in my climate. Summer gas in winter has too low a vapor pressure. It would be a simple fix. Dan (This account is not used for email.) Thanks all for the posts. The distibutor cap, points, rotor, and starting fluid got it running good enough to drive it straight to the repair shop. The shop said the distributor itself is the culprit, and I'll pick it up all fixed tonight. Woo hoo! > The shop said the distributor itself is the culprit, Doesn't make a lot of sense; I'll be very interested to learn exactly what about the distributor they feel was culpable. >> The shop said the distributor itself is the culprit, > >Doesn't make a lot of sense; I'll be very interested to learn exactly what >about the distributor they feel was culpable. Ask EatME. He has an answer for everything. >Thanks all for the posts. The distibutor cap, points, rotor, and >starting fluid got it running good enough to drive it straight to the >repair shop. > >The shop said the distributor itself is the culprit, and I'll pick it >up all fixed tonight. Woo hoo! Don't waste your time with these other wannabe's Mr. DOS. I'll give you the straight skinny first time around. Lg I'll give > you the straight skinny first time around. > > Lg So that is what you call your 'Johnson', Lawrence...Old 'straight skinny'?? ;>) > I'll give >> you the straight skinny first time around. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So that is what you call your 'Johnson', Lawrence...Old 'straight skinny'?? >;>) I know distributor ignition systems, by any name. As well as the *pro tech certified accredited dickweed* who is going to rip-off Mr. Dos. My first car, I paid $20 cash for it. You get the idea...I had to learn quickly ;-) Lg "Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message > > I know distributor ignition systems, by any name. As well as the *pro > tech certified accredited dickweed* who is going to rip-off Mr. Dos. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lg Well, I hope he doesn't get the donkeykong put to him by the guy that says his distributor is shot. Not that it might not be valid, but.... >"Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message > >> I know distributor ignition systems, by any name. As well as the *pro [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >guy that says his distributor is shot. Not that it might not be >valid, but.... Everyday the chickens show up at the Fox Den for their ritual abuse. Some people have money to burn, so no skin off my nose. I'll go there for warranty repair only, wherein I pay the first $100 deductible, but, after that, Fix Or Repair Daily picks up the rest of the $4,000 tab ;-\ Got in writing here, I do. But there's a catch to that too. Last time I pulled that warranty trick with the dealership, they showed me a 75 penny piece of rubber hose that was leaking at the bottom of the radiator. They wanted $800 to replace the radiator. For a 75 cent piece of hose: "Nope, it only comes as one unit." they tried to tell me that when the rubber hose goes, the entire radiator needs to be replaced. ahhhhhhhh.............No. Buyer Beware. Lg > Thanks all for the posts. The distibutor cap, points, rotor, and > starting fluid got it running good enough to drive it straight to the > repair shop. > > The shop said the distributor itself is the culprit, and I'll pick it > up all fixed tonight. Woo hoo! That's an old trick to sell you a new distributor. What they do is put a scope on it and point to the trace and say that the distributor has shot bearings which have uneven output and that's why the engine is running rough, and you can rebuild the distribtor, but it would be cheaper to put in a new one. Then if you fall for that they put in some cheap POS chinese junk which probably isn't even curved properly for your engine. Just make sure to get the old distributor from them when you pick up the car, by law they are supposed to give it to you. My guess at the problem is simply that the points condensor was shot. All this is, is a big electrolytic capacitor that keeps the points from arcing. These dry out as they age and when they get old, can fail with symptoms like yours. It's about a $3 part and usually in the older cars is in the distributor or on it's side. Once the condensor fails the arcing of the points throws the timing all to hell because the current flow in the coil doesen't collapse immediately when the points open. Ted > That's an old trick to sell you a new distributor. ***That has happened many times in the past, for sure. > My guess at the problem is simply that the points condensor > was shot. ....... Once the condensor fails > the arcing of the points throws the timing all to hell because the > current flow in the coil doesen't collapse immediately when the > points open. ****Or the condensor develops a dead short because the electrolyte film is punctured. Since the condensor is installed ACROSS the breaker points, a shorted condensor kills the spark. > > Thanks all for the posts. The distibutor cap, points, rotor, and > > starting fluid got it running good enough to drive it straight to the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > put in some cheap POS chinese junk which probably isn't even > curved properly for your engine. That's actually a plausible explanation, however. Worn lobes only exacerbate the problem, giving wildly varying dwell... > Just make sure to get the old distributor from them when you pick > up the car, by law they are supposed to give it to you. I agree. > My guess at the problem is simply that the points condensor > was shot. All this is, is a big electrolytic capacitor that keeps > the points from arcing. These dry out as they age and when > they get old, can fail with symptoms like yours. It's about a $3 part and > usually in the older cars is in the distributor or on it's side. Eh, maybe. Maybe worn out completely. Only way to tell is to examine it out of the car. > Once the condensor fails > the arcing of the points throws the timing all to hell because the > current flow in the coil doesen't collapse immediately when the > points open. > > Ted What I would do is try to find a local auto electrical shop that will work on distributors, and have your existing one, which you retrieved from the shop, rebuilt properly and swapped back into the car. Then you will have peace of mind that it's done right, and also a spare dist. on the shelf for emergencies (which shouldn't happen for another 20-30 years or so.) nate > Thanks all for the posts. The distibutor cap, points, rotor, and > starting fluid got it running good enough to drive it straight to the > repair shop. > > The shop said the distributor itself is the culprit, and I'll pick it > up all fixed tonight. Woo hoo! Glad you got it firing and off the road. Cars like yours can be a lot of fun, and can have a character of their own that newer models somehow lack. Character it has! Here's a picture of the car in question, in case anyone has trouble remembering: http://www.mrdos.com/IJB/20040413_Toronado_900.jpg
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