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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2006What is it with German Tailights in the US
Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make them susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I spent a lot more time driving in traffic in the dark. It seems to me that a relatively large percentage of German cars (particualrly VWs and BMWs) have miss-matched taillights. By this I mean the running lights on one side of the vehicle are significantly brighter than the other. And I am not talking about old clunkers, I have seen several virtually brand new BMWs with very significant differences in apparent brightness from side to side. Is this a result of replacing the OE bulbs with non-compatible US bulbs, or is there some sort of flaw in the design of the lights? It often seems like one side will be either especially bright or especiallly dim. I occasionally see the same sort of thing on US or Japanese cars, but usually the cars are older and often appear to be poorly maintained. Ed > Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make > them susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ed A little to much Fartfunoogon the night before they built the car maybe??? If the bulbs are the same, there could be only one explanation. More resistance in the 12 feed lines or grounds. Bob > > Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make > > them susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > If the bulbs are the same, there could be only one explanation. > More resistance in the 12 feed lines or grounds. Bad grounds is a credible explanation; that was a constant fight on my old 535i. Also most German taillights use the same base bulbs throughout (Ba15s? I think?), with varying wattages - 5W, 10W or 21W. So it's very easy to shove the wrong bulbs in the wrong space if you don't actually exercise some care in replacing bulbs. nate > Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make them > susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I spent > a lot more time driving in traffic in the dark. It seems to me that a > relatively large percentage of German cars (particualrly VWs and BMWs) > have miss-matched taillights. By this I mean the running lights on one > side of the vehicle are significantly brighter than the other. If what you're seeing is brake lamp intensity on the left side and taillamp intensity on the right side, even when the driver isn't applying the brakes, it's mostly because idiot US drivers don't know when to use (and when NOT to use) their rear fog lamp. So, seeing a switch with an indicator light, they turn it on, reasoning "I don't know what this is, but I must've paid for it, so I'm gonna use it! Ahyuck!" Same reasoning gets applied to front fog lamps, which get left in the "on" position all the time. Since the rear fog switch is usually daisychained to the front fog switch, you see lots of German vehicles (plus Jaguars, plus Range Reauvahs, plus last-generation Olds Auroras, plus Volvos and some Saabs) running around with front and rear fogs ablaze full time. Some of these (e.g. Jag, Olds, Reauvah) have *dual* rear fogs, left and right. Looks like the driver's riding the brake. If what you're seeing is random (sometimes brighter on the left, sometimes on the right), then it's probably just bulb misapplication. There are still European-vehicle dealers (not to mention the aftermarket) selling brass-base American-type bulbs such as 1157, 67, 97, etc. where European-type nickelplate-base bulbs such as P21/5W, R5W, R10W etc. are called for. The US-type bulbs cause eventual problems in sockets intended for the European-type bulbs. Also, some European vehicles specify an R10W taillamp bulb, but an R5W (which is considerably dimmer) fits the same socket and looks identical, so misapplication is easy. The reverse of this situation (R5W called for, R10W installed) is equally possible. > And I am not talking about old clunkers, I have seen several virtually > brand new BMWs with very significant differences in apparent brightness > from side to side. The most likely explanation is the rear-fog one. DS >> Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make them >> susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I spent [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (e.g. Jag, Olds, Reauvah) have *dual* rear fogs, left and right. Looks > like the driver's riding the brake. You have to slam U.S. every where you can? Where do you live? Canada? You are posting through university of michigan, so the U.S. education is ok? but everything else is stupid and idiotic? Walking hypocrisy. And to answer the OP question, the rear taillights on newer imports (and some domestics) are LED. Depending on how you look at the LED (your viewing angle to the LED), it can look brighter or dimmer. >> If what you're seeing is brake lamp intensity on the left side and >> taillamp intensity on the right side, even when the driver isn't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You have to slam U.S. every where you can? It's the same situation in Canada, so my comments apply equally to bubbleheaded Canadian drivers. There, happy? > And to answer the OP question, the rear taillights on newer imports (and > some domestics) are LED. Depending on how you look at the LED (your > viewing angle to the LED), it can look brighter or dimmer. Yes, LEDs' angular intensity gradient is higher than that of most filament lamp-equipped bulbs, but no, that is not the effect the OP is noticing. From any angle at which both left and right taillamps are visible, even LED taillamps' intensity will not appear significantly different. > You have to slam U.S. every where you can? I'd be right there with you if 95% of the cars I encounter on the road didn't have their damn fog lights on. >> You have to slam U.S. every where you can? > > I'd be right there with you if 95% of the cars I encounter on the road > didn't have their damn fog lights on. Yea right... fog lights always on and turn signals that don't seem to work at all. Bob >>> You have to slam U.S. every where you can? >> I'd be right there with you if 95% of the cars I encounter on the road >> didn't have their damn fog lights on. > fog lights always on and turn signals that don't seem to work at all. ...and lobbying groups that demand the "right" to travel "at a safe and prudent speed in the lane of one's own choosing" (translation: 54mph in the left lane). > You have to slam U.S. every where you can? Are you going to try to deny the piss poor US lighting regs and the fact there are tons of morons driving around with fog lamps on? > And to answer the OP question, the rear taillights on newer imports (and > some domestics) are LED. Depending on how you look at the LED (your viewing > angle to the LED), it can look brighter or dimmer. I have noticed the same thing as the OP. However, I've learned enough to tell what is what on these cars and daniel is correct, it's rear fogs and obvious bulb misapplication. Of course my favorite was the SUV I saw with Amber _brake_ signals and red _turn_ signals. >Of course my favorite was the SUV I saw with Amber _brake_ signals and >red _turn_ signals. Could it have had rear crash damage incompetently repaired?  Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. >>You have to slam U.S. every where you can? > > Are you going to try to deny the piss poor US lighting regs and the fact > there are tons of morons driving around with fog lamps on? I bet will. I bet he'll also try to deny that he's one of those <DJS> "idiot US drivers" </DJS> who don't know what fog lights are. >>And to answer the OP question, the rear taillights on newer imports (and >>some domestics) are LED. Depending on how you look at the LED (your viewing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Of course my favorite was the SUV I saw with Amber _brake_ signals and > red _turn_ signals. >> If what you're seeing is brake lamp intensity on the left side and >> taillamp intensity on the right side, even when the driver isn't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Ahyuck!" Same reasoning gets applied to front fog lamps, which get left >> in the "on" position all the time. > You have to slam U.S. every where you can? So sorry to offend your delicate little sensibilities. Here, let me make it allllll better for you: AMERICA! AMERICA! RAH-RAH-RAH! YEAH, WOOOOOO! YEAH! YOO-ESS-AYY! YOO-ESS-AYY! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WOOOOO! YEAH! WE'RE RIGHT AND THE STUPID REST OF THE WORLD IS WRONG! PAX AMERICANA! YOO-ESS-AYY! FOUR MORE YEARS! WOOOOOOOOOO! DS >> You have to slam U.S. every where you can? > So sorry to offend your delicate little sensibilities. Here, let me make > it allllll better for you: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > REST OF THE WORLD IS WRONG! PAX AMERICANA! YOO-ESS-AYY! FOUR MORE YEARS! > WOOOOOOOOOO! Mais au moins ils ne sont pas français ;) >>> You have to slam U.S. every where you can? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mais au moins ils ne sont pas français ;) C'est vrai! Les voitures françaises sont encore plus mauvaises que l'Américain ceux. :) nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > C'est vrai! Les voitures françaises sont encore plus mauvaises que > l'Américain ceux. :) There have, of course, been a great many hopelessly crappy American car designs. No debate there. Thing is, there are also a great many hopelessly awful German car designs, a great many hopelessly awful Japanese car designs, etc. The German junk stays in the German home market. The Japanese junk stays in the Japanese home market. Likewise, the American junk rains down upon the American market. (Proof: Virtually nobody outside France and Benelux buys French cars.) DS >> C'est vrai! Les voitures françaises sont encore plus mauvaises que >> l'Américain ceux. :) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > DS Oddly enough, I was at an Indian restaurant last night with the girlie and the only available parking space was next to an old Peugeot. First time I've seen one of those in a LONG time. Anyway she was driving and I just had to turn and look at her car - an old Corrado G60 - parked next to this awful French thing and say to her "look, a car that's even harder to keep running than yours!" nate ...yes, I do like sleeping on the couch, why do you ask? Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Hi! > (Proof: Virtually nobody outside > France and Benelux buys French cars.) Renault has been #1 importer to Germany since I can't remember when. And my Dad's Citroen BX is still behaving reasonably well at age sixteen and more than 220k kilometres. So is a pal's much older Citroen CX. Heck, even the German Post are buying Renault Kangoo these days. Yours, Erik. Signature"A new moon, a new tune -- another song is coming soon A new moon, a new day -- another love is coming my way She took my heart, and without a word she tore it apart New moon so bright, shine your light on me for the rest of the night" -- CdB > (Proof: Virtually nobody outside > France and Benelux buys French cars.) http://www.kba.de/Abt3_neu/KraftfahrzeugStatistiken/Reihen/Reihe2_2005.pdf (page #18) #1 importer: Renault (France) #2 importer: PSA (Peugeot+Citroen, France) #3 importer. Fiat (Italy) French cars are really common in Germany! And their quality rose significantly (whereas german cars....) Cheers Thomas > > (Proof: Virtually nobody outside > > France and Benelux buys French cars.) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > French cars are really common in Germany! > And their quality rose significantly (whereas german cars....) Ages back I had a Renault Laguna supplied by my insurance Co whilst my own car was in for repairs. *Very* nice it was too. French cars are no longer as oddly 'quirky' as they once used to be. Graham > > C'est vrai! Les voitures françaises sont encore plus mauvaises que > > l'Américain ceux. :) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > awful German car designs, a great many hopelessly awful Japanese car > designs, etc. The German junk stays in the German home market. How do you account for all of the german cars sold outside of the german market. > The > Japanese junk stays in the Japanese home market. How do you account for all of the Japanese cars sold outside of the Japanese market. > Likewise, the American > junk rains down upon the American market. How do you account for all of the American cars sold outside of the American market. (Proof: Virtually nobody outside > France and Benelux buys French cars.) How do you account for all of the French cars sold outside of those markets. Is it possible that you have never left the county in which you were born and are doing nothing but repeating nonsense you read somewhere else? > > > C'est vrai! Les voitures françaises sont encore plus mauvaises que > > > l'Américain ceux. :) [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > born and are doing nothing but repeating nonsense you read somewhere > else? Welllll.... from a US-centric perspective, the German and Japanese stuff we get here is fairly uniformly good (barring exceptions like Mitsubishi, which don't sell well anyway) whereas Renault has been run out of the US market completely at least twice, Peugeot once, and if people elsewhere are buying American cars, I refer you to P.T. Barnum. nate >Welllll.... from a US-centric perspective, the German and Japanese >stuff we get here is fairly uniformly good (barring exceptions like >Mitsubishi, which don't sell well anyway) whereas Renault has been run >out of the US market completely at least twice, Well, they had an Alliance with an American Motor Corporation once... Now they are kind of back in the US, having acquired control of Nissan. The German stuff offered in the US is generally good to drive, but reliability issues can be bothersome. >Peugeot once, and if >people elsewhere are buying American cars, I refer you to P.T. Barnum. Ford Focuses are reasonably common in Europe. Although they were designed by Ford's European division and made there. The Focuses in the US are somewhat decontented versions (decontented to sell cheaply, with disastrous reliability results the first year or two), and the US is not getting the second generation that Europe now gets. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. > Ford Focuses are reasonably common in Europe. Although they were > designed by Ford's European division and made there. The Focuses > in the US are somewhat decontented versions (decontented to sell > cheaply, with disastrous reliability results the first year or > two), and the US is not getting the second generation that Europe > now gets. US automakers have a tendency to ruin any car their divisions overseas designed and built if they bring it to the USA. In the case of the focus, much of the problems I believe came from the assembly plant in Mexico. I remember (but may be wrong) the ones assembled in the USA had fewer difficulties. > > Ford Focuses are reasonably common in Europe. Although they were > > designed by Ford's European division and made there. The Focuses [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > remember (but may be wrong) the ones assembled in the USA had fewer > difficulties. I can think of a couple exceptions, there were a couple vehicles that came over here relatively unpolluted like the Merkur XR4Ti and the Contour/Mystique. Or course, they were completely unpromoted and left for dead before they were even introduced... and, of course, were significantly better than their domestic equivalents (Taurus anyone?) nate >> > Ford Focuses are reasonably common in Europe. Although they were >> > designed by Ford's European division and made there. The Focuses [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > for dead before they were even introduced... and, of course, were > significantly better than their domestic equivalents (Taurus anyone?) That's the other way they ruin them. The marketeers let them die and go 'look these cars just don't sell here'. I remember looking around for a 5spd contour and never finding one to test drive. >I can think of a couple exceptions, there were a couple vehicles that >came over here relatively unpolluted like the Merkur XR4Ti and the >Contour/Mystique. Or course, they were completely unpromoted and left >for dead before they were even introduced... and, of course, were >significantly better than their domestic equivalents (Taurus anyone?) The Taurus/Sable was significantly bigger than either. Although in the case of the XR4Ti, the most similar in size US Ford/Mercury was the Tempo/Topaz. The Contour/Mystique eventually replaced the Tempo/Topaz. The larger Merkur Scorpio was probably more equivalent to the Taurus/Sable. Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. > > There have, of course, been a great many hopelessly crappy American car > > designs. No debate there. Thing is, there are also a great many hopelessly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How do you account for all of the german cars sold outside of the > german market. Well, Johnny, if you could read, you'd be able to figure that out all by yourself: The German *JUNK* stays in the German home market. The German *NON-JUNK* gets sold both at home and abroad. > > The > > Japanese junk stays in the Japanese home market. > > How do you account for all of the Japanese cars sold outside of the > Japanese market. Well, Johnny, if you could read, you'd be able to figure that out all by yourself: The Japanese *JUNK* stays in the Japanese home market. The Japanese *NON-JUNK* gets sold both at home and abroad. > > Likewise, the American > > junk rains down upon the American market. > > How do you account for all of the American cars sold outside of the > American market. Well, Johnny, if you could read, you'd be able to figure that out all by yourself: The American *JUNK* stays in the American home market. The American *NON-JUNK* gets sold both at home and abroad. >> The German junk stays in the German home market. > How do you account for all of the german cars sold outside of the > german market. Those are the ones they choose to sell outside Germany. >> The Japanese junk stays in the Japanese home market. > How do you account for all of the Japanese cars sold outside of the > Japanese market. Those are the ones they choose to sell outside Japan. >> Likewise, the American >> junk rains down upon the American market. > How do you account for all of the American cars sold outside of the > American market. Those are the ones they choose to sell elsewhere. (Most of what the US car makers sell elsewhere, they build elsewhere and don't sell in the USA. (sadly)) >> (Proof: Virtually nobody outside >> France and Benelux buys French cars.) > How do you account for all of the French cars sold outside of those > markets. Those are the ones they can still sell outside of France! > Is it possible that you have never left the county in which you were > born and are doing nothing but repeating nonsense you read somewhere > else? That seems more like you than Daniel. >> Mais au moins ils ne sont pas français ;) > > C'est vrai! Les voitures françaises sont encore plus mauvaises que > l'Américain ceux. :) "I neutered the cat and now he's French?" :-) >>> You have to slam U.S. every where you can? >> So sorry to offend your delicate little sensibilities. Here, let me >> make it allllll better for you: AMERICA! AMERICA! RAH-RAH-RAH! YEAH, >> WOOOOOO! YEAH! YOO-ESS-AYY! YOO-ESS-AYY! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WOOOOO! >> YEAH! WE'RE RIGHT AND THE STUPID REST OF THE WORLD IS WRONG! PAX >> AMERICANA! YOO-ESS-AYY! FOUR MORE YEARS! WOOOOOOOOOO! > Mais au moins ils ne sont pas français ;) Amen. *clink* >>> If what you're seeing is brake lamp intensity on the left side and >>> taillamp intensity on the right side, even when the driver isn't [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > DS You already answered me before, dude, you are losing your mind! >>> Ahyuck! >> You have to slam U.S. every where you can? > So sorry to offend your delicate little sensibilities. Wow, Daniel J. Stern != "Dan J.S." ? > DS You both sign off as DS... > Wow, Daniel J. Stern != "Dan J.S." ? Nope, not the same. >> DS > > You both sign off as DS... Yeah, we both have the same initials, as it seems. > You have to slam U.S. every where you can? To be fair to Dan S., the US laws ARE particularly idiotic in his particular field of work (automotive lighting). Not so much in that US lighting laws prevent good lighting function, but that the laws ALLOW for terrible lighting function. See 1994 Camaros and 1993 Chrysler Concorde/Dodge Intrepids for two simple examples where a candle with a wet wick would be about as good as the fully-compliant headlamps installed by the factories. There are lots of others, including all the GM vehicles that used the half-height style headlamps that the Camaro used. As for idiotic drivers- do you not yourself encounter twits with their fog lamps glaring EVERY time you get out on the highway after dark? I do. People truly do not know when to use (and more importantly when NOT to use) fog lamps. > As for idiotic drivers- do you not yourself encounter twits with their fog > lamps glaring EVERY time you get out on the highway after dark? I do. > People truly do not know when to use (and more importantly when NOT to > use) fog lamps. When I went back to Italy for a visit, I have NEVER in my life experienced worse drivers. They even drive on sidewalks there. Accidents all over. Next to Japan, I think US has great drivers (Canadian drivers are same as US drivers). Germany - well, the drivers there were ok, but nothing special. I especially like the guys trying to pull a boat with a 4 cylinder engine car - driving 60 KM on the autobahn. > I think US has great drivers (Canadian drivers are same as US drivers). Nope, Canadian drivers are better. http://www.scienceservingsociety.com > > I think US has great drivers (Canadian drivers are same as US drivers). > > Nope, Canadian drivers are better. > > http://www.scienceservingsociety.com I had a hard time finding proof in that reference. Other references I have seen ( http://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca0503.pdf ) would say it depends on what you are comapring - deaths ber 100,000 population (Canada is lower) or deaths per Billion Km traveled (US is lower). Ed >>>I think US has great drivers (Canadian drivers are same as US drivers). >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed Lies, damn lies and statistics. I think it's hard to compare drivers and road conditions in something like this - you've got places like Churchill (small town, but lots of bad weather and winter roads) and places like Orlando (nice weather and roads but 1000x the traffic and full of old people doing 45 in the passing lane.) Ray >>> I think US has great drivers (Canadian drivers are same as US >>> drivers). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I had a hard time finding proof in that reference. Really? The evidence including ample data are about three clicks away, starting from the front page. Maybe try a little harder. Your suggested reference made a big deal about death per thousand vehicles, but I can't see that as a valid measurement. Deaths per distance traveled seems a more valid measurement. Using this measurement the differences are not very significant and, like I said before, other sources are ambiguous / contradictory. Deaths per billion veh-km Canada 9 US 9.4 Interestingly, Germany has a much higher death rate (11.1 Deaths per billion veh-km) than either the US or Canada depsite all the talk about how wonderful the German roads and drivers are. Ed >Your suggested reference made a big deal about death per thousand >vehicles, but I can't see that as a valid measurement. Deaths per >distance traveled seems a more valid measurement. Using this >measurement the differences are not very significant and, like I said >before, other sources are ambiguous / contradictory. >Deaths per billion veh-km > Canada 9 > US 9.4 >Interestingly, Germany has a much higher death rate (11.1 Deaths >per billion veh-km) than either the US or Canada depsite all the >talk about how wonderful the German roads and drivers are. Where did you get that figure? IRTAD put Germany at 9,7 fatalities/bvkm in 2003 http://www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen/irtad/english/we2.html Fatalities in 2004 were down by about 10% from 2003 for a rate of 8.4, and down another 7% in 2005 from 2004 for a rate of around 7.7. The fatality rate on the Autobahn is down again; to about 3/bvkm. http://www.bast.de/htdocs/aktuelles/presse/2005/unfallprognose_2005.pdf It's actually NONSENSE to compare (just) those numbers. Road environments differ vastly from one country to another and even within countries. If your object is to keep making roads more safe, then you need to look at the trends in fatality rates; ideally per occupant km, but realistically per vehicle km. That means recording the rates over time and comparing how they change; hopefully by how many percent they are reducing every year. You then look at the real causes of why people die in crashes. Traffic is a complex, non-linear environment that nobody can control. All that can be done is to manage it. If you just want to win elections, then you can wave the "comparative" figures about in the air and soothsay a silver bullet. Just remember that most silver bullets turn out to be blanks. Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Cynicism \Cyn"i*cism\ X against HTML mail | A visual defect caused by the / \ and postings | intrusion of reality > Road environments differ vastly from one country to another and even > within countries. If your object is to keep making roads more safe, then [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is a complex, non-linear environment that nobody can control. All that > can be done is to manage it. > If you just want to win elections, then you can wave the "comparative" > figures about in the air and soothsay a silver bullet. Just remember > that most silver bullets turn out to be blanks. Very well said, and quite correct. The only addition I'd make is that an aggregate of fatalities per vehicle-distance travelled *AND* per vehicle registered gives a more accurate picture of trends than just looking at the first figure. The first figure is better at depicting the trend as regards vehicle occupants, while the second figure is better at resolving the trend as regards e.g. pedestrians, bicyclists, and others not necessarily inside the car. DS > Your suggested reference made a big deal about death per thousand > vehicles, but I can't see that as a valid measurement. It is one valid measurement. Deaths per distance travelled is another valid measurement. They measure different factors in the road-vehicle-driver-bystander system. Neither figure alone conveys a full picure of the situation. > Interestingly, Germany has a much higher death rate (11.1 Deaths per > billion veh-km) than either the US or Canada depsite all the talk about > how wonderful the German roads and drivers are. 1) German secondary roads are not necessarily as good. Compare highways to highways and secondaries to secondaries. 2) You're disregarding the UK and Australia. > drivers). Germany - well, the drivers there were ok, but nothing special. I > especially like the guys trying to pull a boat with a 4 cylinder engine > car - driving 60 KM on the autobahn. In Germany I found the drivers to be very disciplined and alert. There was no lollygagging at stop lights when they turned green, drivers kept right except to pass, etc and so forth. Yes, there were underpowered vehicles on the autobahn going slow, but at least they were in the right lane and posed no difficulty to pass. Here at home in chicago it seems there is always some arsehole who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to drive his motor home or tow a camper in the left lanes right through the city. > When I went back to Italy for a visit, I have NEVER in my life experienced > worse drivers. They even drive on sidewalks there. Accidents all over. Next > to Japan, I think US has great drivers (Canadian drivers are same as US > drivers). Germany - well, the drivers there were ok, but nothing special. I > especially like the guys trying to pull a boat with a 4 cylinder engine > car - driving 60 KM on the autobahn. Canadian drivers <> US drivers. I've driven in most provinces and about 1/2 of the states, and can offer these observations: North Dakota and Manitoba and Saskatchewan drivers are the slowest and have the worst lane discipline. Rednecks (Alberta and any southeastern state) are the fastest. (and IMHO probably the safest, duallys notwithstanding.) Quebecers are just insane. Overall, I'd rather drive in the states than Canada. Partly because the roads are better, but overall the drivers are better. (And I'm a Canuck.) Ray > Overall, I'd rather drive in the states than Canada. Partly because the > roads are better, but overall the drivers are better. (And I'm a > Canuck.) Perhaps you are Canadian, but neither of your other two assertions is correct -- as measured by data, not by your anecdotal observations. >> Overall, I'd rather drive in the states than Canada. Partly because >> the roads are better, but overall the drivers are better. (And I'm a >> Canuck.) > > Perhaps you are Canadian, but neither of your other two assertions is > correct -- as measured by data, not by your anecdotal observations. I would rather drive in the states because MY experience has been that US drivers suck less than Canadian drivers once you get out of North Dakota on your way to the real destination and that US roads (especially the interstates) put the sh.t we call highways up here to shame. Is that phrased good enough for you? I drove from Winnipeg to LA and would rather drive in LA. (Maybe I'm a bit weird - 75mph, 8 lanes of traffic doesn't phase me in the least. In fact, I think I prefer it to the manitoba redlight addiction.) If Hwy 401 is the closest we can come to a "superhighway" then we have a long way to go. Ray > I would rather drive in the states because MY experience has been that > US drivers suck less than Canadian drivers once you get out of North > Dakota on your way to the real destination and that US roads (especially > the interstates) put the sh.t we call highways up here to shame. Drive in ON and MI and NY and then say that with a straight face. Cross into MI or NY from ON and you notice three things: 1) The posted speed limit goes up (MI only) 2) The road quality goes WAY down 3) The drivers get WAY ruder and less competent >> I would rather drive in the states because MY experience has been that >> US drivers suck less than Canadian drivers once you get out of North [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 2) The road quality goes WAY down > 3) The drivers get WAY ruder and less competent well, I haven't yet driven in NY, but I've driven in Michigan. Other than downtown Detroit being the scariest looking city I've been in, the roads are still better than most of Canada. Here's a Hint: Toronto is NOT most of Canada. Try some of rural Manitoba for "roads." I used to live in Fort McMurray - 200km of two lane crap road with a 6" drop off for a shoulder and one gas station on the whole stretch. I've driven through Montana and the mountains at 80-100mph and driven white knuckled at 50mph through the Canadian Rockies. (granted, roads in the mountains are iffy because of the location, but the Montana roads are still better overall.) I've driven on "highways" in Saskatchewan that wouldn't qualify as back lanes in the states. That said, the roads in Canada are still better than the roads in Mexico. And THEY drive ... well... like it's a rodeo or something. Ray >> Drive in ON and MI and NY and then say that with a straight face. Cross >> into MI or NY from ON and you notice three things: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > roads are still better than most of Canada. Here's a Hint: Toronto is > NOT most of Canada. Oh, here we go, everybody pop some popcorn, it's another oblique rant about how Torontonians consider Toronto the centre of the universe, etc. Guess what, guy? Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver might as well be all of Canada. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Canadians live and drive in and around those places, and those places prop up the whole country financially. > Try some of rural Manitoba for "roads." Try some of rural anywhere for "roads". Where not many people exist to drive on the roads, 8-lane superhighways are neither needed nor, generally, wanted. > I used to live in Fort McMurray - 200km of two lane crap road > with a 6" drop off for a shoulder and one gas station on the whole stretch. And it wasn't satisfactory for you, so you moved. Well done! Gold star on the fridge for you, and you get two desserts after supper tonight. Anyone asks, you tell 'em I said it was OK; you earned it. >>> Drive in ON and MI and NY and then say that with a straight face. >>> Cross into MI or NY from ON and you notice three things: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > on the fridge for you, and you get two desserts after supper tonight. > Anyone asks, you tell 'em I said it was OK; you earned it. geeze Dan, you forgot about all those people in Montreal... but I guess they're not really Canadians, eh?* And it still comes down to lies, damn lies, and statistics. When you say "best drivers" it's hard to nail down what people mean - I'm a great driver in rush hour, but I hate backing up stuff like moving trucks - I'd never be able to drive a semi, but I can go into turn one three wide... so does that make me a better driver than someone who gets road rage in rush hour but can park a rig 2" from the loading dock on the first try? All I'm saying is Toronto is NOT necessarily representative of Canada's roads and drivers as a whole. It's a piece - an important piece, but not the whole damn country. I _like_ Toronto. I'd move there. (The wife won't so I'm stuck in Manitoba until I'm 55 and retire down south.) *and before you french canadians get your panties in a wad, I'm one of you, whether I like it or not. :) Ray >> As for idiotic drivers- do you not yourself encounter twits with >> their fog lamps glaring EVERY time you get out on the highway >> after dark? I do. People truly do not know when to use (and more >> importantly when NOT to use) fog lamps. >When I went back to Italy for a visit, I have NEVER in my life >experienced worse drivers. They even drive on sidewalks there. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >guys trying to pull a boat with a 4 cylinder engine car - driving >60 KM on the autobahn. Which is of course unlawful if it impedes the flow of traffic. IIRC, they are limited to a maximum of 80 km/h anyway. Germany has the "problem" of not prohibiting drivers who obtained their licences in other countries from driving. Standards are uniformly variable. :-) Ther is, btw: nothing inappropriate about towing a boat with a 4-cylinder car. If the boat-trailer is light enough or the 4-cylinder powerful enough, it creates no problems. Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Cynicism \Cyn"i*cism\ X against HTML mail | A visual defect caused by the / \ and postings | intrusion of reality >> Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make them >> susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I spent >> a lot more time driving in traffic in the dark. It seems to me that a >> relatively large percentage of German cars (particualrly VWs and BMWs) >> have miss-matched taillights. By this I mean the running lights on one >> side of the vehicle are significantly brighter than the other. With a poorly tuned diesel, soot will coat one of the tail lights (on the exhaust side) changing the relative brightness. > The most likely explanation is the rear-fog one. Ahhhh. I bet you are right, especially if the rear fog lights come on with the front ones. It seems to me that most BMW owners (and SUV owners and....owners) fell the need to announce their presence by turning on as many lights as possible. Thanks. Ed > If what you're seeing is random (sometimes brighter on the left, sometimes > on the right), then it's probably just bulb misapplication. There are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The most likely explanation is the rear-fog one. I think the most likely issue is the use of the improper bulb, the correct european style (7506, 7528) part numbers are a couple of bucks more than the incorrect (1156, 1157) part numbers, and it never ceases to amaze me how stupidly cheap people get when confronted with a choice. Bernard > I think the most likely issue is the use of the improper bulb, the > correct european style (7506, 7528) part numbers are a couple of bucks > more than the incorrect (1156, 1157) part numbers Oops, minor nit: your 7506 and 7528 aren't bulb type numbers, they're Osram's reference numbers. 7506 = type P21W. 7528 = type P21/5W. 1156 and 1157 are type numbers. > and it never ceases to amaze me how stupidly cheap people get when > confronted with a choice. Sometimes they're not even given a choice! One of the main reasons why '90s Jettas seemed to have so many problems with faulty rear lamps was that VW *dealers* were selling 97s instead of R10Ws, 1156s instead of P21Ws and 1157s instead of P21/5Ws. It wasn't helped by the *entire* North American aftermarket listed the American types, and our '90 (made in Germany) listed the American types in the owner's manual. Those cars, like most European cars, really need the European nickel-plated bases and crescent-shaped base contacts. >> I think the most likely issue is the use of the improper bulb, the >> correct european style (7506, 7528) part numbers are a couple of bucks [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Osram's reference numbers. 7506 = type P21W. 7528 = type P21/5W. 1156 and > 1157 are type numbers. stock numbers, for me. >> and it never ceases to amaze me how stupidly cheap people get when >> confronted with a choice. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > most European cars, really need the European nickel-plated bases and > crescent-shaped base contacts. Sylvania has one of the worst (least accurate) parts catalogs of any line I deal with. Volvos still are listed with US type bulb numbers as proper replacement, even though the warning light on the dash will glow when you use them (unless you use them in pairs) Bernard > Sylvania has one of the worst (least accurate) parts catalogs of any > line I deal with. Their cataloguing has never been very good. The quality of their line is degrading to match. > Volvos still are listed with US type bulb numbers as proper replacement, > even though the warning light on the dash will glow when you use them > (unless you use them in pairs) And sometimes even then. What's even better is what happens if you use American-type bulbs in an older Mercedes (W123, W126): The brake lamps work, but the cruise control doesn't. > > I think the most likely issue is the use of the improper bulb, the > > correct european style (7506, 7528) part numbers are a couple of bucks [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > most European cars, really need the European nickel-plated bases and > crescent-shaped base contacts. So what are the consequences of using the "wrong" bulbs? I have to admit, I've been tempted to put 1156LLs in the Porsche rather than the stock P21Ws just so I don't have to worry about replacing bulbs for a good long time. The "european" bulbs do seem to have a shorter life than the krypton-filled ones. Don't the 1156LL/KR generally have a nickel plate base anyway? And what is the issue, galvanic corrosion? Of course I replaced all the bulbs on the outside of the car when I got it (because half of them were burned out and all the parking/marker lights were different part numbers with different wattages) except for the driver's side front sidemarker, because the front sidemarkers are a PITA to replace, guess what the only bulb I've had to replace since then is? Since we're off topic already, what do you prefer for grease inside the light sockets? Lubri-plate or Syl-glide? My '55 Stude requires grease in the light sockets as the lights always seem to get some moisture inside them even with new seals. nate >> Sometimes they're not even given a choice! One of the main reasons why >> '90s Jettas seemed to have so many problems with faulty rear lamps was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So what are the consequences of using the "wrong" bulbs? Poor contact with the base lugs (which are smaller and round on the American-type bulbs, larger and crescent-shaped on the European-type bulbs) and galvanic corrosion. Also, P21W and P21/5W have faster rise times than 1156/1157. > I have to admit, I've been tempted to put 1156LLs in the Porsche rather > than the stock P21Ws just so I don't have to worry about replacing bulbs > for a good long time. 1) P21W-LL 2) P3497 (contacts are round but correct height, so no contact problem. 40% brighter and VERY long life) > Since we're off topic already, what do you prefer for grease inside the > light sockets? Lubri-plate or Syl-glide? Syl-Glide, definitely. > >> Sometimes they're not even given a choice! One of the main reasons why > >> '90s Jettas seemed to have so many problems with faulty rear lamps was [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > bulbs) and galvanic corrosion. Also, P21W and P21/5W have faster rise > times than 1156/1157. Isn't the contact shape thing just an issue with the 1157 or P21/5W style bulbs though? The single contact bases look similar, or are there dimensional differences that aren't obvious? Is the rise time thing due to the higher current draw/heavier filament of the 1156? (i.e. would the same statement hold true for the older 1034/whatever the single filament equivalent would be series?) What material are they using for the sockets, anyway, that is incompatible with brass base bulbs? Seems like American cars, with all their faults, are a lot more tolerant electrically, pretty much any bulb will fit and work at least until the sockets start to rust (and I do say rust, as they are almost always stamped steel) > > I have to admit, I've been tempted to put 1156LLs in the Porsche rather > > than the stock P21Ws just so I don't have to worry about replacing bulbs > > for a good long time. > > 1) P21W-LL I have never seen one of these, are these a Krypton-filled bulb like a 1156LL? Where are they sold? > 2) P3497 (contacts are round but correct height, so no contact problem. > 40% brighter and VERY long life) Would this also be an acceptable replacement for an 1156, or only a P21W? I go both ways when it comes to cars... :) > > Since we're off topic already, what do you prefer for grease inside the > > light sockets? Lubri-plate or Syl-glide? > > Syl-Glide, definitely. thanks... nate Daniel J. Stern wrote: > On Fri, 6 Jan 2006, N8N wrote: > > Since we're off topic already, what do you prefer for > > grease inside the > > light sockets? Lubri-plate or Syl-glide? > > Syl-Glide, definitely. Speaking of Syl-Glide, does anyone have a spec for it? I want to buy a large grease-gun sized cartridge of it from McMaster-Carr. If it's really proprietary, is there something similar in the open market? JazzMan Signature********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry ********************************************************** >> Poor contact with the base lugs (which are smaller and round on the >> American-type bulbs, larger and crescent-shaped on the European-type [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Isn't the contact shape thing just an issue with the 1157 or P21/5W > style bulbs though? Mostly, yes. > Is the rise time thing due to the higher current draw/heavier filament > of the 1156? Not directly, it's just a product of all the design factors of the two bulbs,. > What material are they using for the sockets, anyway, that is > incompatible with brass base bulbs? Not really materials so much as construction details. > Seems like American cars, with all their faults, are a lot > more tolerant electrically Agreed! >> 1) P21W-LL > > I have never seen one of these, are these a Krypton-filled bulb like a > 1156LL? Where are they sold? *raises hand* >> 2) P3497 (contacts are round but correct height, so no contact problem. >> 40% brighter and VERY long life) > > Would this also be an acceptable replacement for an 1156, or only a > P21W? I go both ways when it comes to cars... :) Both. And the P3496 is an excellent replacement for 1157 or P21/5W. >> I have never seen one of these, are these a Krypton-filled bulb like a >> 1156LL? Where are they sold? > *raises hand* Hmm, it seems you need to advertise a little bit more (given the fact that you actually sold lighting equipment escaped both of us at first). :) >>> I have never seen one of these, are these a Krypton-filled bulb like a >>> 1156LL? Where are they sold? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that you actually sold lighting equipment escaped both of us at first). > :) Probably. I try hard to keep a low commercial profile on Usenet; this ain't the place for advertising. >>> I have never seen one of these, are these a Krypton-filled bulb like a >>> 1156LL? Where are they sold? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hmm, it seems you need to advertise a little bit more (given the fact > that you actually sold lighting equipment escaped both of us at first). :) Actually, I knew that he did; I was wondering if it was a standard FLAPS item, but I am guessing that it is not. One of these days when I finally get my '55 fully roadworthy (need a good carb right now I think; the old Weber-made aftermarket AFB that is on it is doing a good job of coating the insides of my tailpipes with an even layer of soot...) I plan on adding some Cibies and a relay harness, and the guy I bought my last pair from is sadly deceased. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Not limited to the US. We see this a lot in Sweden also, although there are stiff penalties for driving around with the fog lights on. Unfortunately it is very rarely enforced. I have also seen police cars running around with the fog lights on :-| They used to be illegal in Sweden, and had to be disabled before a car could be registered. I don't think making them legal was a good move. Thomas >Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make >them susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I >spent a lot more time driving in traffic in the dark. It seems to me >that a relatively large percentage of German cars (particualrly VWs and >BMWs) have miss-matched taillights. By this I mean the running lights >on one side of the vehicle are significantly brighter than the other. I think the bright rear light you are seeing is a rear fog lamp. Some cars have two rear fog lamps, but many only have one. Not sure the reasoning for that. ------------- Alex > I think the bright rear light you are seeing is a rear fog lamp. Some > cars have two rear fog lamps, but many only have one. Not sure the > reasoning for that. Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making the brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's side) doesn't have that problem. Proponents of dual rear fogs argue that they supply distance information not available from a single rear fog. That, however, would only be true if dual rear fogs were always mounted at the outer extremities of the rear of the vehicle, and they almost never are. >> I think the bright rear light you are seeing is a rear fog lamp. Some >> cars have two rear fog lamps, but many only have one. Not sure the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's side) > doesn't have that problem. I can't buy that argument any more than I buy the Ford engineer's smirking claim that rear red turn signals are OK simply because they're the only flashing lights. The fact that ONE bright red rear lamp is on is ambiguous, because in the real world brake lights DO burn out (frequently, these days it seems to me). Is the guy braking with one lamp out, or is he driving with his fog lamp on? >> Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making the >> brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's side) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to me). Is the guy braking with one lamp out, or is he driving with his > fog lamp on? The point is that a single rear fog means there's a large and conspicuous change in appearance when the driver steps on the brake (new bright red lights on BOTH sides of the car AND in the middle come on). With duals, the only clearly conspicuous change is that the center brake light comes on. Oh yeah, and the bright reds on both sides appear to get larger. >>> Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making >>> the brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > light comes on. Oh yeah, and the bright reds on both sides appear to get > larger. But in both cases, a "mental process" is required, whereas if the ONLY bright rear red lamp allowed is a brake lamp, there is no ambiguity. Yes, rear fog lamps "work" because we can process what's going on. Just like red rear turn signals work because we can figure out what's going on after a blink or two. But if the argument that "yellow means turn and red means stop unambiguously" works for turn signals, and I agree that it does, a bright rear red fog is going to impair response to the brake lamps in EXACTLY the same way that red rear turn signals do (a phenomenon that has already been stated in this thread.) If a study comes out that red rear fogs don't slightly slow recognition of brake lamps in the same way that red rear turn signals do, then I submit that one or the other of the studies is flawed. > >>> Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making > >>> the brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > that red rear turn signals do, then I submit that one or the other of > the studies is flawed. I'm sure that they (rear fogs) *do* slightly slow recognition of brake lamps. That's why they should only be used in conditions where visibility is severely limited, i.e. the benefits of their use outweigh the drawbacks. Unfortunately a good number of people driving vehicles equipped with rear fogs are too dim (heh) to understand this. nate >>>>>Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making >>>>>the brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > nate I still fail to see what they do which ordinary rear RUNNING lamps do not, and the running lamps do it without confusion factor and without being so bright as to annoy following traffic. Making a light source brighter doesn't necessarily make it visible at substantially greater distance through a scattering medium such as fog. For example, it doesn't take much fog to render the sun invisible. Sure, there's light scattering everywhere, but you can't tell where the sun IS in the sky. A brake lamp compared to a tail lamp is tantamount to no difference at all. > >>>>>Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making > >>>>>the brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > sun IS in the sky. A brake lamp compared to a tail lamp is tantamount to > no difference at all. it's appx. 4x as powerful, so the difference is substantial. nate >>>>>>>Dual rear fogs mimic the appearance of brake lamps, thereby making >>>>>>>the brake lamps less conspicuous. Single rear fog lamp (on driver's [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > nate But how much added range does that buy through fog? Probably not a lot, although it did occur to me that in real world scenarios, its not just seeing the light through the fog, its also standing out from the following car's headlamp glare. But there's gotta be a better way than a RED light on the rear of the car. > >Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make > >them susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ------------- > Alex Traditionally the rear fog is one lamp mounted on the driver's side of the car. Not sure what the reasoning is behind providing two, unless it's the "more is better" theory at work again. nate > Is there something special about German vehicle tailights that make > them susceptible to variations in brightness? Now that winter is here I > spent a lot more time driving in traffic in the dark. It seems to me > that a relatively large percentage of German cars (particualrly VWs and > BMWs) have miss-matched taillights. By this I mean the running lights > on one side of the vehicle are significantly brighter than the other. What you are probably seeing is the idiotic "rear fog lamp" being used by equally idiotic drivers who turn on ALL their fog lamps whenever they get in the car. > What you are probably seeing is the idiotic "rear fog lamp" being used > by equally idiotic drivers who turn on ALL their fog lamps whenever they > get in the car. Idiotic drivers, yes. Idiotic rear fog lamps, no. When implemented and used properly, they are a very good and effective safety device. > > What you are probably seeing is the idiotic "rear fog lamp" being used > > by equally idiotic drivers who turn on ALL their fog lamps whenever they > > get in the car. > Idiotic drivers, yes. Idiotic rear fog lamps, no. When implemented and > used properly, they are a very good and effective safety device. Nope. If your driving like a fool in the fog no light bulb is going to save you. |
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