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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2006patching radial tires?
I ran into an interesting problem, and im not sure exactly what happened. i had a tire (bridgestone "hoop" 13" motorcycle tire, 3 ply nylon) with 2 small punctures. one was a drywall screw, and the other looks like a small trim tack or nail. Took the tire off with my Harbor Freight tire remover, which I bought special for the occasion. I then patched both holes with Monkey brand radial tire patches. buffed the areas, applied the cement, waited til dry (i THINK, and this is where i may have screwed up), then peeled off the backing and applied the patches. i did not use a "knitting tool" and this is another thing i may have done wrong. Anyhow- both patches held for about a month, then i noticed a slow leak after work yesterday. put air in, got it home, put "slime" in for the time being. Probably shouldnt have done that either, since i knew id be taking the tire off to see WTF went wrong. Today, i took off the tire, and both patches were completely off in a bed of slime, and had some rubber cement gobbed up on em. So i take this OTHER tire i have, which had a nail go through it and patch that for the time being. i have a new tire ordered, but its on backorder and will probably be a week. this one has ONE hole, and I used a "monkey brand" patch/plug combo. made sure the tire was clean, installed the patch/plug (which does NOT require rubber cement), pulled it through, "knitted" it, cut off the plug end. So far, so good. Still wary from my previous patching experience, i installed an even LARGER radial tire patch over the patch/plug combo. Buffed the whole area, applied rubber cement, installed patch, knitted as directed. Now, the questions: What could have caused both original patches to not hold? Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch? Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug? Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch isnt working. Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is not working for me, hence the questions. > I ran into an interesting problem, and im not sure exactly what > happened. i had a tire (bridgestone "hoop" 13" motorcycle tire, 3 ply [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > What could have caused both original patches to not hold? Flexing of the casing. > Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch? Yes, usually. > Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug? Yes. > Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if > anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch > isnt working. Probably gave you a false sense of security. > Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have > another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont > understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is > not working for me, hence the questions. It should be obvious that a patch on the inside of a tire is likely to fail. Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work. >> What could have caused both original patches to not hold? > Flexing of the casing. so not following the "stitching" procedure and possibly not letting the rubber adhesive dry >> Is the patch/plug combo better than a regular patch? > Yes, usually. > >> Did i screw up by putting another patch over the patch/plug? > Yes. thought so. now ill have issues with 2 different patches flexing over the casing? >> Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if >> anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch >> isnt working. > > Probably gave you a false sense of security. as long as it doesnt help the patches come off >> Yes- i know what im doing is potentially dangerous, but i do have >> another tire on order and plan on replacing it ASAP. What i dont >> understand is why what has worked for MANY other people in the past is >> not working for me, hence the questions. > It should be obvious that a patch on the inside of a tire is likely to > fail. tires are repaired all the time using patches, plugs or some combination. with proper installation, im under the impression they should become one with the tire. otherwise, why sell a product that plain doesnt work at all? and what do the places that repair tires use? > Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work. its on order and will be here in about a week. > >> What could have caused both original patches to not hold? > > Flexing of the casing. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > thought so. now ill have issues with 2 different patches flexing over > the casing? Yes, if they are layered over one another. > >> Would adding "Slime" now be a bad idea or cause the patches to fail? if > >> anything, i think it would add an "early warning sign" that the patch [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > should become one with the tire. otherwise, why sell a product that > plain doesnt work at all? Think about the forces that work on a patch vs a plug for a minute. The plug has the greatest chance of working, but there are no guarantees. > and what do the places that repair tires use? Plugs seem to be the most frequently used in my experience. > > Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work. > > its on order and will be here in about a week. >>> What could have caused both original patches to not hold? >> Flexing of the casing. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > and what do the places that repair tires use? I had my van tire repaired at a tire place once. A few months later, on the highway in the FL panhandle driving back to TX, started hearing a funny "whup whup" noise. On checking, there was a giant bubble in the tread where the fix was. Looked like air bled in between the layers of the tire. Anyway, the tire places don't always get it right either. >> Just go buy a new tire if a plug doesn't work. > > its on order and will be here in about a week. I'm no expert, but have had a little experience. I used to use the sticky wick inserts a lot, and never had a failure. I liked the way they seemed to seal the inside of the puncture. On a few occasions where the puncture was large, I would use these wicks first, then open the tire and trim off the wick and patch over it. What I believe I have observed is that some of the internal patches seem to have a very poor adhesive and they come off no matter how clean you make the surface. At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then paint it with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the patch was applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very well. It has been a long time since I have seen or worked with these latter patches. Maybe they dont exist anymore, and maybe they were never as good as they seemed to be. But I believe that not all patches are created equal. Maybe someone here can give us the straight story. HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article <anPvf.3971$fb4.1672@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>... > At our company garage, the head mechanic used to use a type of patch > that required you to first buff the rubber with a wire wheel, then paint it > with glue,and finally to ignite it with a match. After that, the patch was > applied and held in place with a clamp. These seemed to hold very well. That was a "smoke-and-mirrors" deal...... There is NO rubber patch vulcanizing cement the instructions of which require one to light it off with a match....besides, it is dangerous! The practice was begun by impatient gas station operators who didn't want to wait for the excess cement to dry while the customer was tapping his foot in the office. It does ABSOULTELY NOTHING to enhance the repair - and tire industry reps have shown it likely introduces carbon into the bond between the patch and the host - effectively making a much lower quality repair which could be subject to premature failure. "Hot patches" are an entirely different story......being patches that are actually melted into the host rubber - either electrically or by burning the material contained in the patch's metal cup backer while the patch is firmly clamped to the host. I prefer hot patches for most of my tire repair work. > HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article > <anPvf.3971$fb4.1672@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > There is NO rubber patch vulcanizing cement the instructions of which > require one to light it off with a match....besides, it is dangerous! From the tone of my post, you probably realize that I suspected as much. Still, these patches seemed to hold well. They were not dangerous as such, but if you had people pumping gasoline in the vicinity, or working with solvents, etc, then they contributed to a hazard. > "Hot patches" are an entirely different story......being patches that are > actually melted into the host rubber - either electrically or by burning > the material contained in the patch's metal cup backer while the patch is > firmly clamped to the host. I remember hot patch equipment as well. Haven't seen it in a long time. I stand with the statement that some adhesive patches hold better than others. There is a lot of cheap crap out there. Good patches aren't free. > > HLS@nospam.nix wrote in article > > <anPvf.3971$fb4.1672@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I stand with the statement that some adhesive patches hold better than > others. There is a lot of cheap crap out there. Good patches aren't free. I don't remember using hot patches on tires themselves, only on tubes, which (to say the least) aren't widely used on passenger cars anymore. > That was a "smoke-and-mirrors" deal...... > > There is NO rubber patch vulcanizing cement the instructions of which > require one to light it off with a match....besides, it is dangerous! I paid $25 for an inside patch a couple of days ago. Found a machine screw in my tire, although I originally thought the hissing sound was something else. I watched the entire procedure. There was a hair dryer (heat gun?) to speed up the curing? No rebalancing. However - it was done quickly and I got to work on time. Later, I called a local Firestone shop. $29 for a full patch and plug or $31 if I want it balanced. I probably should have done it there. I assume they ream the hole in accordance with RMA guidelines. It's a reasonably expensive ($100+) performance tire with over 80% of its useful tread left. The tire shop owner assured me that patches have worked well for him for "over 30 years". I've gone patch-only or plug/patch combo before and never had a repair fail. I would have preferred the plug/patch except I was in a hurry and didn't have the time to shop around in the morning. I've heard that a good fitting plug should protect the steel belts from rusting around a properly reamed hole. I'm even thinking of having the repair redone (if possible), or at the very least have that tire rebalanced. I figure this set of tires has maybe 30-40K miles left in them and I'd sooner not have the tire fail on me in that time. y_p_w <y_p_w@hotmail.com> wrote in article <tjcwf.564$Hd4.80@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>... > I paid $25 for an inside patch a couple of days ago. Found a machine > screw in my tire, although I originally thought the hissing sound was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It's a reasonably expensive ($100+) performance tire with over 80% of > its useful tread left. Depending upon your tire manufacturer AND the exact type of repair performed, your tire MAY or MAY NOT have lost its speed rating. With speed-rated tires, it is usually best to go back to the original dealer who knows the manufacturer's recommended procedures to follow in order to maintain the speed rating of the tire. Some manufacturers say "No Repair at all", while others will allow up to two or three as long as they are not within a certain degree from each other. > y_p_w <y_p_w@hotmail.com> wrote in article > <tjcwf.564$Hd4.80@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Depending upon your tire manufacturer AND the exact type of repair > performed, your tire MAY or MAY NOT have lost its speed rating. Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S. 205/55-R16. I've read the Pirelli USA warranty guide, and they recommend a plug and patch. > With speed-rated tires, it is usually best to go back to the original > dealer who knows the manufacturer's recommended procedures to follow in > order to maintain the speed rating of the tire. This was the original dealer. The way the owner described it to me was, "do you want to pay $85/hr to do additional work reaming out a hole"? At that point, I just wanted it done. If I had more time to think of it, I would have gotten the full repair somewhere else since it wasn't really that much more. > Some manufacturers say "No Repair at all", while others will allow up to > two or three as long as they are not within a certain degree from each > other. I couldn't find anything from Pirelli. I even thought of perhaps getting a brand new tire. This tire had spent maybe 7K miles on the front of a Subaru Impreza WRX, and about 5K on the rear. It lost less than 2/32" of the original tread depth. A new tire would have been fairly close. Those were hot vulcanizing patches. They had a metal cup backing on them that got clamped in place with a solid fuel inside you lit on fire after the brush and glue prep. Some folks that didn't know any better used to light the glue thinking this was the same as they saw on the real ones. Kinda like if the hot patch works, lets make the glue hot. I don't believe that had much benefit. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > I'm no expert, but have had a little experience. > I used to use the sticky wick inserts a lot, and never had a failure. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > But I believe that not all patches are created equal. Maybe someone > here can give us the straight story. > I'm no expert, but have had a little experience. > I used to use the sticky wick inserts a lot, and never had a failure. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > But I believe that not all patches are created equal. Maybe someone > here can give us the straight story. AFAIK the hot vulcanizing patches have not been available for several decades. John S. <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote in article <1136648770.298251.34040@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>... > AFAIK the hot vulcanizing patches have not been available for several > decades. I buy mine at NAPA........ |
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