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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / February 2006

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1994 s-10 electrical help needed

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earl - 22 Jan 2006 23:10 GMT
1994 s-10 purchased used. Had a bad rear view mirror switch so I
replaced it.  First time using the new switch, it too went bad.
I check the power and I am getting power from what appears to be 2
sources.  This would be on the orange wire to the switch.  I say this
because if I pull the fuse for the mirror switch, the continuity light
continues to light. If I also pull the courtesy light fuse the probe
light goes out.

After spending lots of time on this, I have also discovered that when
doors are closed the dome lamp glows, but it is dim. If I pull the dome
lamp bulb, the problem goes away, and each fuse acts correctly.

The truck does not have DRL, and I have replaced the mirror switch, the
third brake light, the door jamb switches, the headlight switch, and
the dimmer switch, with brand new GM parts.

I did pull the door panels, as well as the accordions from the doors to
the pillar and saw no cracked, broken or stripped wires.  When I look
at the schematics, I don't see where these two circuits cross paths.
Assuming I want the dome lamp to work correctly, anyone out there have
any ideas where to look for the problem?  

Thanks in advance!
Steve W. - 23 Jan 2006 00:13 GMT
> 1994 s-10 purchased used. Had a bad rear view mirror switch so I
> replaced it.  First time using the new switch, it too went bad.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance!

In the book they share a common ground point.
CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert - 23 Jan 2006 13:42 GMT
> 1994 s-10 purchased used. Had a bad rear view mirror switch so I
> replaced it.  First time using the new switch, it too went bad.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance!

Do any of the other interior lights that are attached to the same switch
glow dimly?  The dome lamp typically has 3 positions, off-auto-on.  Do
you have 3 positions in this car or just on-auto?

is the rearview mirror somehow attached to the dome lamp?  I am
wondering why you gave all the rear view mirror info?

Signature

Thank you,

CL Gilbert
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

earl - 23 Jan 2006 15:06 GMT
The original problem was rear view mirror switch was bad.  After
replacing one, and it immediately blew, I started to check. Turns out
that I am getting power to the outside rear view mirror switch from 2
power sources, where it should be only one. If I remove only the fuse
for the power mirror circuit, I still have power to the switch.  If I
remove the courtesy light fuse only, I still have power.
I checked last night, and I believe I am getting power back fed into
the circuit from the dome lamp.  If I remove the dome lamp, all is
well. If I install the dome lamp, I am back to two power sources to the
mirror switch.  Interesting note to add, the reading lamps on the
inside rear view mirror do not work from the switches on the mirror.
They will go on with the door open, but with door closed, and after the
timer times out, you cannot manually turn them on.
Back to your question, the dome lamp should come on when the door is
open, or with the dimmer switch on the dash. And no, the other interior
lights behave correctly.
I am still tryin' and I do appreciate the replies!!!!
CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert - 23 Jan 2006 21:22 GMT
> The original problem was rear view mirror switch was bad.  After
> replacing one, and it immediately blew, I started to check. Turns out
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> lights behave correctly.
> I am still tryin' and I do appreciate the replies!!!!

Normally the wiring that goes overhead goes up the A-pillar.  Im
guessing it does that in your vehicle too.  There is only need to bring
a single ground overhead.

I don't have the schematic so im going off general knowledge here
(automotive systems engineer for 10 years).  The dome lamp and the
mirror lamps are both connected to ground through the ajar switches.
When the ajar switch is open (door closed), you essentially have +12V on
both side of bulbs.  Since the other side of the mirror bulbs is the
dome bulb, this will look like two sources of power, but its reall not.
 Try checking when the ajar switch is closed (door open).

Technically if they share a ground they should be from the same Fuse.
If its not then its a bad design, but thats beside the point here.
Maybe you can double check though that the two appearant power sources
are from different fuses.

Also power mirror fuse likely is unrelated to rear view mirror feed.

You should have 3 wires in your rear view mirror.  One is 12V from a B+
fuse.  One is a ground.  One is tied to ajar/dome switch.  Check that
each of these is working.

I didn't follow your statement about what happens when the dome lamp is
installed and it being dim.  Did you mean to say when dome lamp is
installed the mirror lamps lit dimly?

It looks to me like your problem is the ground wire to the rear view
mirror is cut, or maybe a terminal has pushed out of the connector.  Or
maybe its another bad mirror switch.

Signature

Thank you,

CL Gilbert
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Scott Dorsey - 23 Jan 2006 15:57 GMT
> I did pull the door panels, as well as the accordions from the doors to
> the pillar and saw no cracked, broken or stripped wires.  When I look
> at the schematics, I don't see where these two circuits cross paths.
> Assuming I want the dome lamp to work correctly, anyone out there have
> any ideas where to look for the problem?  

They share a ground somewhere.  That ground is loose or corroded.  Therefore
power is coming _backwards_ from the ground point back into the lamp
because the ground point is several volts above ground.  Look for
ground points.
--scott

Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

earl - 02 Feb 2006 19:42 GMT
All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
the INSIDE rear view mirror, that had reading lamps installed is what
went south. When the fixture went bad, it back fed power thru the loom
into the OUTSIDE power mirror switch. Dont know how, but I replaced the
INSIDE rear view mirror, and all is well.

Again, thank you to all that responded!
Lawrence Glickman - 02 Feb 2006 20:15 GMT
>All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
>traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Again, thank you to all that responded!

sometimes these electrical problems are a real bugger.  If you think
about it, a modern vehicles is 30 times more complicated than your
average household.  Maybe 100 times more complicated.  No
exaggeration.

I becomes 1000 times more complicated when you don't have the wiring
diagram for YOUR vehicle, but just a generic POS like in Haynes and
Chilton.  Then you're really on your own.

It took me months to hunt down an -intermittent- alternator failure.
Emphasis on the word intermittent.  Usually by the time I got under
the hood the problem was gone.

Why was my battery losing charge over time?  Needing to be recharged
every few months?  Never an idiot light.  Only recently when the idiot
light began coming on frequently and STAYING on did I have a chance to
grab this problem by the horns and take the bull to the ground.  

Now I know, it was an intermittent electrical contact at the voltage
regulator PLUG on my alternator, which has an internal voltage
regulator BTW, but that is OK.  The connection wasn't.

I'm still having trouble with that.  I get the dash light for
alt/battery, lift the hood, press down on the plug, the light goes
out, the voltage comes up, I go on my way.

What it comes down to is sh.t PARTS.

Now I am going to *coat* the VR terminals with SOLDER just to enhance
their diameter, cleaning any flux of the surfaces after the solder
hardens, and jam that fvcking plug on there with a hammer.

Now imagine, I used to have to fly to Dallas Texas to deal with
*intermittents.*  Or drive to Detroit.  Things would be working fine
and by the time I made the 7 hour trip back to Chicago from Detroit my
cell phone would ring and I would have to go back.

The nightmare continues.  I think I'll do this repair in the driveway
where I can see what I'm doing.  Because you know, the pins are
vertical and the solder is going to want to puddle at the bottom and
short the pins.

Life's a bitch, and then you die.

Lg
shaqtopz@aol.com - 02 Feb 2006 23:56 GMT
Try some DeoxIT contact cleaner and rejuvenator.  Works wonders at
making electrical contacts reliable again.
I use it on everything, light bulbs, batteries and all over my auto and
RV.  Don't have a boat - almost wish I had. Nope, not really.
I guess I will tell my neighbor.  They have a great website
(www.caig.com) and you can get it at RadioShack
(http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.15/category.295/it.I/id.28/.f) and Fry's
(http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.15/category.295/it.I/id.48/.f)

Mike
Lawrence Glickman - 03 Feb 2006 00:12 GMT
>Try some DeoxIT contact cleaner and rejuvenator.  Works wonders at
>making electrical contacts reliable again.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Mike

Now you tell me.
What I did, was melt some solder on the 3 spade pins coming out of the
voltage regulator.  Not a lot of solder, but enough to give the pins
*body mass.*  Then I put on the female plug, which wouldn't fit on all
the way.

So like I said I was going to do, I got a screwdriver and a
sledgehammer.  No joke.  I put the handle of the screwdriver over the
connector, and whacked the blade of the screwdriver with the sledge to
*set* the connector.

Voila.  You can't move that thing if your life depends on it ;-\  It
is fully seated, and is held in place with solder that extruded in and
around the female metal contacts in the plug.

I started the engine, and yanked and pulled and pushed on the
connectors and wires all which ways, and it isn't moving, and my
voltage is rock steady from the alternator.  NOW I trust it to give to
the wife.  Before this moment of truce, no.  Now, yes, I deem the
vehicle fit for road service.

I still get back to the same conclusion.  sh.t parts.  What other
explanation is there?  Ford is trying to save 3 pennies on one of the
most important connectors under the hood?  If they are cheaping out
the vehicle there, what else don't I know about yet?

I will look for this DeoxIT next time I visit radio trash, but my
experience with *contact cleaners* is they are short lived, especially
in harsh environmental conditions.  I think this metal extrusion
process helped along by a sledge hammer is probably going to last for
the long haul.

Lg
shaqtopz@aol.com - 03 Feb 2006 06:22 GMT
Sounds good.  Give DeoxIT a try, you will be surprised.  I have tried
just about every cleaner out there and this one realllly works. They
make a product, Deoxit SHIELD and GOLD, that are used in severe
environments.  I have used the deoxIT GOLD on my audio system with
amazing results - I actually heard a difference in the audio - seemed
clearer and crisper.  The SHIELD is supposed to be for outdoor and
other severe areas - haven't tried it yet.  If it works as good as
their other products I would try it also.
Mike
Lawrence Glickman - 03 Feb 2006 13:44 GMT
>Sounds good.  Give DeoxIT a try, you will be surprised.  I have tried
>just about every cleaner out there and this one realllly works. They
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>their other products I would try it also.
>Mike

Thanks for the tip Mike.
I will look for it today.  I am in the process of really ramping-up my
emergency car repair kit.  This should definitely be in the bag.

Lg
dnoyeB - 03 Feb 2006 19:37 GMT
>>All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
>>traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> average household.  Maybe 100 times more complicated.  No
> exaggeration.

There is a company in Highland park "HELM" that we order electrical
service manuals from.  They contain very good schematics, Usually
created by the OEM.  I like to have one for each of my current cars.

I designed automotive electrical systems for the last 10 years.  They
are quite complicated.  Today they are becoming increasingly networked.
 I had the 1996 manual and drive a 1995 that died, but both could have
been different from the 94 which I dont have.

Signature

Thank you,

"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Lawrence Glickman - 03 Feb 2006 19:54 GMT
>>>All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
>>>traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>  I had the 1996 manual and drive a 1995 that died, but both could have
>been different from the 94 which I dont have.

Which means, essentially, my wiring diagrams are worse than useless.
As I have found out from first hand experience.

As a side note:
There are sensitive microelectronic components in a modern vehicle
which will not take *kindly* to a superimposed radio frequency tracing
signal.  In retrospect, using an RF fox/hound to trace wiring under
the hood of a modern car is a recipe for disaster.

I did some experiments, but the net conclusion I have to come to is
that RF will kill your engine computer components in a heartbeat.  But
I used to have a low voltage LOGIC PROBE, which consisted of a low
voltage signal injector and detector.  This is what I need to use, but
then you have to go point to point on every freaking connection, and
if there is a short, you don't get any signal at all.

Take an example.  I put a low voltage *pulse* ( call it a square wave
) on a wire.  I can't pick it up anywhere.  Is it because the logic
circuits won't let it through or is it because there is a short
somewhere.   Nobody knows.  Ergo, useless idea.

Logic probe, no good.
RF signal tracer, no good.
Final solution, bang your head against the wall and use a DVM.
Outside of special expensive test equipment available only to Dealers
( because of the cost if not the proprietary nature of the things ),
there is little left for the folks at Larry's Car Barn to use for
diagnosing electrical problems.

Lacking the *proper* expensive test equipment, and a set of accurate
wiring diagrams for _my_ vehicle, it is something that is turning my
hair gray.  Too many computers under the hood, programming that I know
nothing about...I am left at the *sensor level* and once a wire enters
a wiring harness to join up with 600 more wires that look just the
same, it's gone.  Lost in the crowd.

There is nothing about a *modern* vehicle that is simple.  Nothing at
all.  Which is why I have taken an interest in the subject.  Math used
to amuse me, but for lack of practical applications, I lost interest.
At least vehicle repair and maintenance has some social and moral
redeeming vale.

Lg
dnoyeB - 06 Feb 2006 16:50 GMT
>>>>All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
>>>>traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> signal.  In retrospect, using an RF fox/hound to trace wiring under
> the hood of a modern car is a recipe for disaster.

Not really.  Electronics tends to be sensitive until its constructed
into some component.  After which it tends to be resilient.

> I did some experiments, but the net conclusion I have to come to is
> that RF will kill your engine computer components in a heartbeat.  But
> I used to have a low voltage LOGIC PROBE, which consisted of a low
> voltage signal injector and detector.  This is what I need to use, but
> then you have to go point to point on every freaking connection, and
> if there is a short, you don't get any signal at all.

RF should not damage an engine controller.  Its the most robust module
in the vehicle.  They endure many tests including RF injection, and many
are require to operate through it.  Some tests the module can fail
during, but it must recover if power cycled.

> Take an example.  I put a low voltage *pulse* ( call it a square wave
> ) on a wire.  I can't pick it up anywhere.  Is it because the logic
> circuits won't let it through or is it because there is a short
> somewhere.   Nobody knows.  Ergo, useless idea.

Well it depends on the circuit type.  It may be pulled to ground through
a resistor, or pulled to b+ through a resistor.  Or it could be a
network circuit, or some other electronically controlled circuit that
will fight your pulses.

Also on modern vehicles you may end up picking up the bus pulses.  The
ntwork can be awakened by many things like opening a door, inserting the
key, opening the hood, etc.

> Logic probe, no good.
> RF signal tracer, no good.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> there is little left for the folks at Larry's Car Barn to use for
> diagnosing electrical problems.

Well thats why I have the electric manual.  The circuits are all color
coded so you should be able to trace them.  The connectors have numbered
or lettered pinouts as well.  It takes a bit of getting used to the manual.

> Lacking the *proper* expensive test equipment, and a set of accurate
> wiring diagrams for _my_ vehicle, it is something that is turning my
> hair gray.  Too many computers under the hood, programming that I know
> nothing about...I am left at the *sensor level* and once a wire enters
> a wiring harness to join up with 600 more wires that look just the
> same, it's gone.  Lost in the crowd.

Well you can get a OBDII tester for about as much as the manual.  You
really cant test the cars much without the obd2 tester because the
computer will sometimes compensate-away your attempt at testing.

without tester or manual, you are pretty much dead in the water.

> There is nothing about a *modern* vehicle that is simple.  Nothing at
> all.  Which is why I have taken an interest in the subject.  Math used
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Lg

On the bright side, the electrical systems are more computerized, but
tend to have fewer components and are more robust than in the past.
Some OEMs are better than others with this.  Honda has shared electrical
parts across car platforms for at least 10 years.  Chrysler is by far
the most agressive and is basically the leader in adoptine new
technologies.  1996 grand cherokee was one of if not The first us OEM to
use network work bus line in the vehicle.  Ford will get to it
eventually, and GM has great ideas and strong plans and tends to get it
right when they finally get around to doing it by which time chrysler
will have it right through brute force :P

Your low end cars tend to still be basic wiring though as while the
electronic systems can be more robust, they cost more unless enough
features are present to support them.

Ill take my old 1982 chevette though over one of these new cars.  It may
break down a lot but everything I need to fix it I could carry in a
single tool box :)

Signature

Thank you,

"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Lawrence Glickman - 06 Feb 2006 17:47 GMT
>>>>>All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
>>>>>traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
>break down a lot but everything I need to fix it I could carry in a
>single tool box :)

Hi,

Yes I have an OBDII tester.  It is of limited readout possibilities
but nevertheless is a hell of a lot better than nothing ( Actron 9145
IIRC ).

It is pretty good for what it does...but lately I have been thinking
about going with AutoTap.  The reason I don't is because I don't need
that _level_ of diagnostic capability at this time.  And I don't have
a portable computer anyhow, just this desktop.

But I do have a Davis Car Chip, which reads any of 4 out of 20
variables every 3 seconds and records the data to the chip memory,
which I can interpret on my computer in graphic form ( very useful
when you have thousands of datapoints, and are looking for any
significant deviations ).

My car is running fine at the moment.  IF my old v-ribbed serpentine
belt was slipping on the alternator pulley, it isn't doing that
anymore.  I just put a new Goodyear Poly V belt on the engine, and it
runs slick as a whistle, even when the air conditioning compressor
cycles on and off.  

So I think I got rid of my problem by replacing the serpentine belt
AND by providing better continuity at the alternator voltage regulator
connector plug.  Time will tell, but so far so good.  I did a
leak-back check of the diodes in the alternator and they are someting
like 20 MICROamperes.  Not enough to notice.  

Then I got behind my dashboard and got hold of any wires that could
short out at the accessories socket and separated those, and went
through the wiring from the steering column and the inside fuse/relay
panels.  Everything looks *ship shape* at the moment, but since I put
the new Goodyear Gatorback on the engine, I want to take the Davis Car
Chip in the house now and download the voltage data.  Since I
installed it, I want to see a nice smooth even alternator output.

So excuse me while I am off to grab my *flight recorder* chip.  then I
will later program it to look at long term fuel trims.

OBDII is great.  I can't Imagine how anyone can get along without
it...they would need a front seat full of gauges and electronics.

Lg
dnoyeB - 03 Feb 2006 19:39 GMT
> All is now well!  Finally got my hands on the factory schematic, and
> traced the wires, looking for the bad ground. Well, it turns out that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Again, thank you to all that responded!

did you check that its actually not "back-feeding" power now?  Glad to
see it fixed.

Signature

Thank you,

"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

 
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