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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2006Tires - why not all AA grade?
I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. They all had tires that were graded Traction B Temperature B - even the top trim level of CRV had them. Made either by Dunlop or Bridgestone. I know that AA tires cost just a little bit more, and cannot understand: A. Why Honda would let their product out the door with less than the best rated tires. B. Why Bridgestone would sell anything but the rest rated tires. Each of their reputations rides on it (no pun intended) plus I would think that they would want to avoid lower grades simply to deflect lawsuits. So, why do they do it - is there some advantage to BB tires, that I am not aware of (other than slightly lower cost)? Regards, Jim > I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jim I remember reading about Chevy tyres from the 1960s or 1970s. Apparently (using today's money) say $10 wholesale per tyre would blow out to say $1000 retail in the finished car. That would have a big effect on the companies price positioning with the competing manufacturers' models. So they chose the cheap tyres. The problem was that they did have more accidents with the cheap tires because the suspension was actually designed for the expensive tyres. I think they got sued, and I think that's how Ralph Nader got his start as a consumer advocate. Could be wrong, but thats how I recall it. John Smyth Sydney Australia > I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jim Tradeoffs. The minimum ratings I would consider are Traction A and Temperature B. The tradeoff for traction is harder rubber can give longer tread wear but poorer traction. Even considering this there is no reason to buy a tire with a Traction B rating because tires with a very high wear rating can be found with Traction A rating. The Temperature rating is really a speed rating. If I recall correctly Temperature B tires are good for about 100 mph. > I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jim  SignatureMike Walsh West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A. > I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jim define "best rated" tire. What about tread wear? My BFG Drag Radials have a tread wear rating of ZERO. They're probably a AAAA in the traction department tho. A tire is a carefully selected set of compromises. Cost Dry Traction Wet Traction Snow/Mud Traction (and offroad vs pavement traction) Noise/Harshness Tread Life Road Hazard Durability (think 4x4 tires vs racing tires) Speed Rating (Heat Dissipation) Load carrying capacity and probably more factors... Ray >> I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Dry Traction >Wet Traction Wet traction also is zero, as I had a pair of slicks on a Merc Cougar and that thing hydroplaned even at low speed. That is one of the times I should have been killed. One out of about 36...driving on a highway with racing slicks in a pouring rain. Of course, I had no other choice at the time, as I bought the vehicle with those tires already on it. Im running Continental P215/60R16 94T tires at this time, and am getting excellent performance out of them. OEM equipment, so don't know how much they cost, but I can -guess- about $120 each. Lg >Snow/Mud Traction (and offroad vs pavement traction) >Noise/Harshness [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Ray > Im running Continental P215/60R16 94T tires at this time, and am > getting excellent performance out of them. OEM equipment, so don't > know how much they cost, but I can -guess- about $120 each. Tirerack.com Conti TouringContact AS P215/60TR16 94T Rating treadwear 520 traction A temp B $60 each Jim >> Im running Continental P215/60R16 94T tires at this time, and am >> getting excellent performance out of them. OEM equipment, so don't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jim That is good to know. Getting them mounted and balanced and all that...no doubt is going to push the final figure a bit higher, but that is good to know. These are excellent in treadware and road traction. Best I've been driving on in as long as I can remember. Of course, I had a Merc Tracer before this car, and there is a huge difference in the ride between the two vehicles anyhow, tires notwithstanding. I'm sure that when it comes time to replace the OEM, I'm going with what the car came with. These are hard to beat. Lg >>>Im running Continental P215/60R16 94T tires at this time, and am >>>getting excellent performance out of them. OEM equipment, so don't [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Lg I personally have no love for Continental tires... had a set on my '02 GTI from the factory, I never was happier with the car than the day I got a set of Michelin Pilots for it... Contis just had shitteaux traction, wet or dry. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>Im running Continental P215/60R16 94T tires at this time, and am >>>>getting excellent performance out of them. OEM equipment, so don't [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >nate Strange. I have traction up the gazoo with these tires, like they've got glue on the treads. Then again, I don't know about the GTI but I've got 2 tons leaning down on these things. 3,800 lbs of vehicle + passenger weight. That's 1,000 lbs over each wheel, and 2/3rds of that or more shifts to the front when I brake. I think PART OF IT is that I have ABS, and even on _dry_ roadbed, going _under_ 15 miles/per/hour, the ABS has kicked in in a Hard Stop and kept me from skidding. No, my experience is just the opposite. I've got traction up the wazzoo with Continental Tires. Of course, there is the possibility I might have even _more_ with Michelins. You've given me something to think about, but for the PRICE I seems to be getting my money's worth. Lg >>>>>Im running Continental P215/60R16 94T tires at this time, and am >>>>>getting excellent performance out of them. OEM equipment, so don't [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Lg With the Contis, I would inadvertantly "burn rubber" while backing out of parking spaces if I wasn't careful with the clutch. (this is a ~3300 lb. car with 1.8L turbo engine) the fact that your ABS is kicking in just reinforces my belief that the tires aren't that great. If you had enough traction your wheels wouldn't be trying to lock. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel ==================================================== >With the Contis, I would inadvertantly "burn rubber" while backing out >of parking spaces if I wasn't careful with the clutch. (this is a ~3300 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >nate Yah maybe. I'm getting a good ride at the moment, and it looks like it is going to be some years before I need new tread. If I have the bucks for something better ( doubt it ) then I can upgrade. In the meantime, they work. Someone always has something *better,* but right now, I have good enough. If there was a handling issue ( derivability issue ) with the vehicle, I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Lg >>I personally have no love for Continental tires... had a set on my '02 >>GTI from the factory, I never was happier with the car than the day I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Lg Not so strange. Same mfr, different tires. You had TouringContact tires, we don't know if nate had the same model. A Goodyear Infinitread isn't the same as a Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar. And the car does make a difference - different suspensions load the tires slightly differently, so it's possible brand A may be a better tire, but brand B actually works better on your car. Which is why I've concluded that tire purchasing is a good part black art. Ray > >>I personally have no love for Continental tires... had a set on my '02 > >>GTI from the factory, I never was happier with the car than the day I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Not so strange. Same mfr, different tires. You had TouringContact > tires, we don't know if nate had the same model. Agreed. If memory serves correctly, they *were* TouringContacts, but I wouldn't swear to it. It was a couple years ago that I sold the car, and before that when I replaced the tires. > A Goodyear Infinitread isn't the same as a Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ray Indeed it is. Even a well-rated tire will have negative reviews from people who couldn't stand them for whatever reason. However, the Contis I had were *so* bad that I would need some serious proof - as in get to drive a car that had some new, good Contis on it - before I'd ever consider buying another set. They started off OK, but after a couple thousand miles traction was awful. Not sure if they were using some weird dual-compound thing like those snow tires, or if they got hard from heat cycling, or what, but they just weren't getting the job done, with plenty of tread left. nate >>define "best rated" tire. What about tread wear? My BFG Drag Radials >>have a tread wear rating of ZERO. They're probably a AAAA in the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Lg I run them purely at the strip, despite their DOT stampings. I drove withm once on the street, and they feel "squishy", despite being a 275/40-17. The squishy is because the sidewall IS squishy... they're a drag slick with tread. At the strip, they're worth about .2 in the 60', and they're mandatory with the nitrous hooked up. I had a car with bald tires in the winter... side street was ice covered. I slid halfway into the ditch doing 5mph, my buddy could push the car sideways across the street there was that little traction. Ray > I was looking at Honda CRVs tonight at a dealer. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jim OEMs have a targeted advertised price they want to meet. And a target standard features list. So if the item is not something people routinely check, they will go cheap on it so that it can bring down the advertised price of the vehicle. They will then offer the respectable version as an option. It may seem like something thats ordered 100% of the time would not be an option, but things become options not just because of their take-rate, but also because of the targeted advertising price. SignatureThank you, "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 Wow, where to begin. First.... Uniform Tire Quality Grading is a US government mandated tire rating system. It is required for all Passenger type tires, except those used in a light truck application, and those classified as "mud and snow" tires. The grading system is not the same for different brands. For example: A Bridgestone tire with traction A tread B and a Goodyear A and B cannot be compared. The grading is only relative to the LOWEST PERFORMING TIRE of any brand. Second. The Bridgestone that came original equipment on the CRV is a Dueler H/T. Almost all original equipment quality tires have two things in common, little if any mileage warranty, and low tread wear rating. This is because the rubber compound in the tire is softer and build to very specific specifications as per the cars manufacturer. The dealer wants the customer to have the nicest riding tire possible so they can make the sale. They don't care if your going to have to replace them after 20k miles. Thirdly the speed rating of the tire determines the overall performance of the tire not the traction and tread wear of the tire. In fact the tread wear and traction will go down as the speed rating and performance of the tire go up. The speed rating not only determines how fast you can safely go on the tire, but how it will handle stopping, turning, accelerating, etc. Lastly the reason the tempature rating is low is because the tires are designed to not dissipate heat so they will soften up while driving, thus giving a great ride. In addition you will, 9 times out of 10, pay more to replace your tires with original equipment tires. I would be glad to answer anymore questions you might have. Chris >Wow, where to begin. First.... > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Chris Well in my case, this only confuses the issue more. I bought a Dealer Demo. With brand new tires on it. No mileage on the tires at all. So did they put OEM on there or otherwise. I suspect OEM, but can't say for certain. I just don't know. The topic never came up for discussion during or after the sale. As I may have mentioned earlier, I get a great ride from these. I don't understand why Nate's experience is exactly the opposite from my own, although I do understand what you wrote above in your very informative post. I have 20,000 miles on these tires already, and they are not showing signs of any wear. This includes both highway and city driving. Lg It really depends on a lot of thing when it comes to tire wear, on any tires, not just OEM. Just to name a few... type of suspension, 4wd, awd, fwd, rwd, type of driving, location of driving (ie hot climate vs colder), if you maintain them (rotations, balance, and align), the type of driver you are, the type of tire, and the type of vehicle. If for example you are a teenage driver with a Dodge Neon who doesn't know jack about maintenance or car's in general, who likes to show off.. he would get probably 15k out of his front tires. If you are a working man with a E150 and have 10 ply tires but don't load the van down, and maintain the tires, and put mostly highway miles you could get 80,000 miles out of them. The point being it original equipment tires, especially higher performing tires, are more likely to wear out sooner. Chris >Second. The Bridgestone that came original equipment on the CRV is a >Dueler H/T. Almost all original equipment quality tires have two [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >so they can make the sale. They don't care if your going to have to >replace them after 20k miles. You missed one other characteristic of OEM tires -- many of them are designed for low rolling resistance to improve fuel economy in government tests. So don't be surprised if, when you replace the worn out OEM tires, your fuel economy goes down by a few percent. That few percent can add up to a significant amount of money over the tire lifetime. Of course, you may find the non low rolling resistance replacement tires to be better in other ways -- but don't forget to take the extra fuel cost into account when comparing costs. As far as tread life is concerned, some OEM tires do seem to last quite long, or at least as long as tires within the same general class. Regarding the original question about the B traction tires on an SUV, could it be that they were chosen to start sliding at a handling limit significantly below the tipover threshhold (whereas a higher traction tire might induce drivers to take corners at speeds closer to the SUV's tipover threshhold)? Signature------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message. |
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