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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2006

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1999 Altima misses off idle

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JM - 12 Mar 2006 18:33 GMT
Hi group,

I've got a 1999 Altima with 100,000 kms.  Ever since I got it almost 2
years ago, it's had a slightly too high idle (varies, but around 850-900
rpm) and it also has a stumble off idle.  The idle itself is more or
less smooth, although if I listen at the end of the exhaust it does seem
slightly irregular, but not by too much.

If I punch the throttle while it's idling, especially when it's just
been started (warm or cold) or before it's warmed up first thing in the
morning, it'll stumble for a second or so (the whole engine shakes), and
then rev up as expected.

When I do this, as soon as I open the throttle I can hear a sucking
sound from the end of the intake, and I can hear the injectors speed up
quite a bit, but it's not until almost a second has gone by that the
engine actually revs.

If I am less abrupt with the throttle, it'll rev just fine, and if I
punch the gas when it's up around 1500-2000 RPM, there's no noticeable
hesitation.

After the car's warmed up, the severity and delay decrease a fair bit,
but they're still noticeable.

I've always suspected a vacuum leak, but today I went out and
disconnected the intake tube from the MAF sensor, sealed it off with a
plastic bag, and then tried blowing into the tube that runs off to the
idle control valve.  My plastic bag inflated slightly, but there was no
obvious leakage from anywhere except a very slight and very slow hissing
from around the EGR valve area that I wouldn't expect would affect anything.

I then tried unplugging the coolant temp sensor.  This caused the idle
to be even higher, and amplified the hesitation off idle quite a bit.  I
know this is no way to make a diagnosis, but it seems suspicious to me.

I had it to the dealer last fall, and everything checked out okay -- the
TPS was within spec and the idle control motor was at 30% which
apparently is normal.

In the past I've checked the throttle position sensor and MAF sensor
ground, and both were fine, and I've replaced the plugs, wires, dist.
cap and rotor within the last few years.  I have tested the coolant temp
sensor a few times and it did seem to change from hot to cold, but it's
hard to get at with my multimeter leads and I wonder if it may be out of
spec just enough to cause my particular problem but nothing more severe
than that.

Can anyone suggest what else I should look at?  I hear the coolant
sensors are pretty common to go bad, and not too expensive, maybe I'll
price one and swap it out just to cross one more thing off the list.

Thanks in advance for any help.1
Backbone - 12 Mar 2006 19:26 GMT
1st check for trouble codes!
My guess is either an EGR valve malfunction or perhaps egr valve ports are
clogged with carbon!

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> Hi group,
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.1
JM - 12 Mar 2006 20:06 GMT
> 1st check for trouble codes!
> My guess is either an EGR valve malfunction or perhaps egr valve ports are
> clogged with carbon!

Forgot to mention, no codes set, and I cleaned the EGR and ports when I
got the car (had the problem then also).  Also, if I pull the vacuum
line to the EGR valve, effectively disabling it, there's no change.  It
does feel like that kind of a problem though :(
Comboverfish - 12 Mar 2006 20:29 GMT
> > 1st check for trouble codes!
> > My guess is either an EGR valve malfunction or perhaps egr valve ports are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> line to the EGR valve, effectively disabling it, there's no change.  It
> does feel like that kind of a problem though :(

If I had it I would look at fuel trim with a scantool, under many
different driving conditions.  If fuel trim was too far off I would
suspect dirty MAF sensor elements first.  I suppose that you have
checked the integrity of the large intake hose (splits, cracks, fit)?

Toyota MDT in MO
JM - 12 Mar 2006 21:02 GMT
>> Forgot to mention, no codes set, and I cleaned the EGR and ports when I
>> got the car (had the problem then also).  Also, if I pull the vacuum
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> suspect dirty MAF sensor elements first.  I suppose that you have
> checked the integrity of the large intake hose (splits, cracks, fit)?

Yes, I've been over that hose and the various ones that branch off of it
a few times, and everything seems in order.  I don't have a tool that
will let me see the trim values but I'll keep that in mind in case I do
take it somewhere for another look.

Thanks.
JM - 12 Mar 2006 23:34 GMT
>>> Forgot to mention, no codes set, and I cleaned the EGR and ports when I
>>> got the car (had the problem then also).  Also, if I pull the vacuum
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> will let me see the trim values but I'll keep that in mind in case I do
> take it somewhere for another look.

I was out today and noticed there is a distinct hissing sound when I rev
 the engine coming from somewhere around the EGR valve or possibly the
intake manifold.  I know this particular year Altima was known for the
intake manifold gasket breaking down and leaking, but this sounds like
it's closer to the firewall than that.

I went over all the vacuum lines I could see and they all look good, so
I'm a little puzzled where this sound is coming from.  I have tried
shooting throttle body cleaner where the manifold bolts to the head,
with no change in idle, and I also sprayed around the various metal bits
of vacuum line, but this had no effect.

I'm half hoping I'm on to something though...
Comboverfish - 13 Mar 2006 04:06 GMT
> >>> Forgot to mention, no codes set, and I cleaned the EGR and ports when I
> >>> got the car (had the problem then also).  Also, if I pull the vacuum
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> I'm half hoping I'm on to something though...

You may just be paying more attention to the sound of the idle speed
control than normal.  As it opens up (revving the engine up and down
will cause this) more air will rush through the intake tube and cause a
sound like you describe.  Unplug the ISC connector and try again.  See
if this is the noise you are chasing.

Toyota MDT in MO
JM - 13 Mar 2006 23:41 GMT
> You may just be paying more attention to the sound of the idle speed
> control than normal.  As it opens up (revving the engine up and down
> will cause this) more air will rush through the intake tube and cause a
> sound like you describe.  Unplug the ISC connector and try again.  See
> if this is the noise you are chasing.

Actually I had the TPS unplugged at the time, which stops the ECU from
opening the idle control valve, so it wasn't coming into play.  I'm
familiar with the hissing sound the IACV (Nissan's terminology) makes
though, and this is different.  It was a short, sharp hiss that
corresponded with the suck sound from the end of the intake.  I wondered
if I was just hearing air rushing inside the manifold, but when I put my
rubber listening hose up against the manifold, the sound was less audible.

I did later listen for the sound again with the TPS connected and the
IACV operating normally, and it was still there, but much less apparent.
 I suspect this is because the IACV was opening and moderating the
demand for so much air all at once.

I just wish I could pinpoint where the sound is coming from a little better.
Backbone - 14 Mar 2006 06:39 GMT
> I just wish I could pinpoint where the sound is coming from a little better.

<smiles>  I use a very long screwdriver. Use the handle as the listening
device, the tip as the probe. Listen as you touch the probe to various
locations - It'll be apparent as to the sounds exact location.

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mst - 14 Mar 2006 06:44 GMT
> "JM" <jmsn@ns.sympatico.ns.ca> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> device, the tip as the probe. Listen as you touch the probe to various
> locations - It'll be apparent as to the sounds exact location.

For $15, you can get a mechanic's stethoscope
at Sears (or most any auto parts), which I
find to be better than a screwdriver.

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Backbone - 14 Mar 2006 06:50 GMT
> For $15, you can get a mechanic's stethoscope
> at Sears (or most any auto parts), which I
> find to be better than a screwdriver.

what's a sears?
Backbone - 14 Mar 2006 06:55 GMT
> > For $15, you can get a mechanic's stethoscope
> > at Sears (or most any auto parts), which I
> > find to be better than a screwdriver.
>
> what's a sears?

never mind i.e. I just goggled - is a store!!
The place where you can get craftsman's tools.
We don't have a Sear here!
mst - 14 Mar 2006 06:53 GMT
> > > For $15, you can get a mechanic's stethoscope
> > > at Sears (or most any auto parts), which I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The place where you can get craftsman's tools.
> We don't have a Sear here!

Which is why I added, "or most any auto parts" :)

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Comboverfish - 14 Mar 2006 13:36 GMT
> <smiles>  I use a very long screwdriver. Use the handle as the listening
> device, the tip as the probe. Listen as you touch the probe to various
> locations - It'll be apparent as to the sounds exact location.

You'll find that for air leaks (what the OP thinks he has) a length of
tubing works better than a solid rod -like a screwdriver- for
pinpointing the noise.  It works quite well, actually.

Toyota MDT in MO
JM - 14 Mar 2006 22:54 GMT
>> <smiles>  I use a very long screwdriver. Use the handle as the listening
>> device, the tip as the probe. Listen as you touch the probe to various
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Toyota MDT in MO

I'll have to pick up a length of tube for this -- I was using a straight
 hollow plastic tube which was better than the naked ear but hard to
work  around corners :).  I'll post back if I learn anything interesting!

Thanks for all of the replies so far.
JM - 25 Mar 2006 21:33 GMT
> I've got a 1999 Altima with 100,000 kms.  Ever since I got it almost 2
> years ago, it's had a slightly too high idle (varies, but around 850-900
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> before it's warmed up first thing in the morning, it'll stumble for a
> second or so (the whole engine shakes), and then rev up as expected.

Ok, so I've had some more time to play under the hood, and I'm relatively
sure now that I do not have a vacuum leak.  I couldn't find anything by
listening with my rubber hose, and I had a vaccum gauge connected today that
showed just past the "normal" mark for vacuum at idle.

I tested the timing, and it's correct at idle, 20 deg BTDC.  The plugs,
wires, dist. cap and rotor are all new within the last year or so.  The O2
sensor is original, but as I understand it, they are just for fine tuning
the mixture and wouldn't likely cause this kind of problem.
There are no trouble codes recorded.

I had the idea that maybe the fuel pressure regulator was bad, but it does
seem to be at least doing something since the revs will increase if I pull
its vacuum line off.

I thought maybe there was some EGR leaking into the intake manifold when I
goosed the throttle, but I realized that would probably cause a very rough
idle as well, which I really don't have.  (The symptom is still present with
the vacuum line that actuates the EGR valve unplugged)

I have noticed in the past that as the engine revs down to idle from around
3000 RPM or so, there's a little "bump" as it comes past 2000 or 1500 RPM or
so, where the engine shakes slightly agains the motor mounts.  Today I
accidentally revved it up to around 3000 RPM when the engine was cool, and
it actually popped (backfired?) lightly out the exhaust as it was coming
down to idle, and did it a second time when I revved it again.

One thing I'm not sure I mentioned in my original post is that the idle is
too high, and has been since I got the car.  The idle screw is seized and
the head pretty much rounded off, so I've always wondered if just adjusting
that screw would set things straight.  Right now I've managed to get it to a
normal idle with the help of a restrictor I fitted into the idle air duct
that branches off the intake hose.

Any thoughts on what else I should look at regarding the hesitation?
 
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