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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2006Engine Overheating Followup
I seemed to have had my wrist slapped for cross-posting this and even doing it incorrectly. Anyway, thanks for the help with part 1 diagnosis of my 88 toyota pickup and would appreciate help with this next part So it seems there is a leak or at least no antifreeze to see in the rad and little to none in the overflow. The oil is not milky and the antifreeze overflow ( what little there is) does not seem contaminated either. Water pump seems fine (no noise, no visible leak, no movement of pulley), now the question of finding the leak and I have still not ruled out head gasket --can you lose that much antifreeze via exhaust?? I have noticed some white exhaust but it is cold presently and I see many cars with similar white exhaust. For the moment, I am going to top up the existing fluid with a economy antifreeze 50/50 mix with distilled water with the intent of flushing the system once I figure out where the leak is. Of course, there is no pool of fluid under the vehicle which is good and bad. The responses have been very helpful and if anyway would like to offer suggestions for the next step, it would be greatly appreciated. >I seemed to have had my wrist slapped for cross-posting this and even > doing it incorrectly. Anyway, thanks for the help with part 1 diagnosis [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of pulley), now the question of finding the leak and I have still not > ruled out head gasket --can you lose that much antifreeze via exhaust?? Yes, it is possible to lose that much coolant via the exhaust. > I have noticed some white exhaust but it is cold presently and I see > many cars with similar white exhaust. If the coolant was coming out the exhast you should it would look more like smoke. > For the moment, I am going to top up the existing fluid with a economy > antifreeze 50/50 mix with distilled water with the intent of flushing > the system once I figure out where the leak is. Of course, there is no > pool of fluid under the vehicle which is good and bad. Top up the radiator and resevoir and then check for leaks. The easiest way to do this would be with a cooling system pressure tester. They are available at most auto parts stores or any decent garage would have one. Places to check for leaks: water pump gasket and weep hole, all hose connections, heater core, the radiator seams, fins and petcock. Also check the engine block for leaking freeze plugs. Once you fill the system back up the may be obvious. > The responses have been very helpful and if anyway would like to offer > suggestions for the next step, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap and see if there was a milky/coffe/cream like build up and there was a bit. It then suggested to change the oil (I will check again if there is any milky stuff as there was none on the dipstick), run it for 50-100 continuous miles and check it again. I checked the antifreeze again by drawing some out by the rad drain plug and all seems in order. Now I am in a bit of denial here, so am hoping that the vehicle being so old (88), there could have been some buildup over the past 20 years as nobody actually looks inside the cap or cleans it. Anyway, the book suggested the I get a Leak down? test done (if still get milky after the oil change and drive) and a pressure test (for leaks). As for the coolant coming out exhaust, if you suggest it should look like smoke. Would it be fair to say, that it would be noticible by others and/or somthing that is very evident? > Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual > last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > look like smoke. Would it be fair to say, that it would be noticible by > others and/or somthing that is very evident? It would be very helpful if you quoted some previous posts so that people responding would know and remember what has been suggested already as well as other pertinent info like year, model, mileage, symptoms, etc. I would not pressure test an 18 year old cooling system because Murphy's law will kick in and cause additional cooling system leaks. I've seen this happen numerous times. Coolant coming out of the exhaust tends to be white steam and will have a sweet smell like coolant. It is normal to see white clouds coming out of the exhaust when you first start the engine until it is thoroughly warmed up and the condensation in the exhaust has burned off. Depending on the ambient temperature, the amount of white clouds you see should diminish but if you still see billowing clouds out the exhaust, then that could mean that coolant is getting into the combustion chambers somehow.  SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual >last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >50-100 continuous miles and check it again. I checked the antifreeze >again by drawing some out by the rad drain plug and all seems in order. MY PSYCHIC POWERS PREDICT A BAD RADIATOR CAP. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual > last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > so old (88), there could have been some buildup over the past 20 years > as nobody actually looks inside the cap or cleans it. It is normal for that engine to have a slight builup on the underside of the oil filler cap when operated in cold weather. As long as it is only a thin film you should be ok. All the 4 cyl toyotas I have seen will do that in cold weather. > Anyway, the book suggested the I get a Leak down? test done (if still > get milky after the oil change and drive) and a pressure test (for > leaks). As for the coolant coming out exhaust, if you suggest it should > look like smoke. Would it be fair to say, that it would be noticible by > others and/or somthing that is very evident? I would just fill the cooling sytem back up making sure you bleed out all the air and the have it pressure tested for leaks. If all is ok drive it and see if your problem returns, it may just be a sticking thermostat. If the thermostat hasn't been changed in a long time I would do that also. I would also replace the radiator cap as others have also stated. If after all the above and you find no leaks then have a leak down test done. If you have coolant in the exhaust you should be able to smell it. It has a very distinct sweet smell. I bought the vehicle about 2 years ago and do like it a lot -the rad and a lot of the houses seem to be in very good condition. It is a 1988 toyota p/u 2wd, 2.4L, 4cyl, 22re engine with 190,000 km on it (marketed as a one ton). It had one previous owner. I am grasping at any positve news that it is not a head gasket. I have not smelt any sweet smell from the exhaust or excessive --have been smelling rubber, but think that is b/c new exhaust was placed a bit close to undermount spare tire --hope it is not a rubber smell --no billowing clouds out the exhaust. Tonight I will top it up with fresh antifreeze/good water mix, run it with cap off, replace with new cap, and monitor the overflow container. I will hold off on a pressure test for the moment and see how it goes. Not sure when the thermostat was last changed, but that would not explain coolant lose, would it?? Anyway, I do not mind taking it to a shop in the near future, but I like to have some info if and when it comes to that. Also, all this info has been useful so next time, I can catch this earlier as there were signs that this was happening, like longer for heater to heat inside, heat guage going up higher than normal and then falling rapidly to a better baseline but this was in that past 2 weeks, when the heat guage finally went up to red and luckily I stopped and hope there was no damage done. I will also copy and post from last series of dignosis. >I bought the vehicle about 2 years ago and do like it a lot -the rad > and a lot of the houses seem to be in very good condition. It is a 1988 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with cap off, replace with new cap, and monitor the overflow container. > I will hold off on a pressure test for the moment and see how it goes. I would not pressure test an 18 year old system unless whoever is doing the test is very careful not to over-pressurize the system and actually cause leaks. > Not sure when the thermostat was last changed, but that would not > explain coolant lose, would it?? Anyway, I do not mind taking it to a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I will also copy and post from last series of dignosis. A bad thermostat can indirectly cause coolant loss because if it overheats and turns to steam, it will flow out of the overflow tube. A bad radiator cap can also cause coolant loss and overheating. The low coolant level can cause a no heat condition. Also check to make sure the fins in the radiator are not clogged and hindering airflow through the radiator, and that the fan clutch is engaging. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) I bought the vehicle about 2 years ago and do like it a lot -the rad and a lot of the houses seem to be in very good condition. It is a 1988 toyota p/u 2wd, 2.4L, 4cyl, 22re engine with 190,000 km on it (marketed as a one ton). It had one previous owner. I am grasping at any positve news that it is not a head gasket. I have not smelt any sweet smell from the exhaust or excessive --have been smelling rubber, but think that is b/c new exhaust was placed a bit close to undermount spare tire --hope it is not a rubber smell --no billowing clouds out the exhaust. Tonight I will top it up with fresh antifreeze/good water mix, run it with cap off, replace with new cap, and monitor the overflow container. I will hold off on a pressure test for the moment and see how it goes. Not sure when the thermostat was last changed, but that would not explain coolant lose, would it?? Anyway, I do not mind taking it to a shop in the near future, but I like to have some info if and when it comes to that. Also, all this info has been useful so next time, I can catch this earlier as there were signs that this was happening, like longer for heater to heat inside, heat guage going up higher than normal and then falling rapidly to a better baseline but this was in that past 2 weeks, when the heat guage finally went up to red and luckily I stopped and hope there was no damage done. I will also copy and post from last series of dignosis. >> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual >> last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > If you have coolant in the exhaust you should be able to smell it. It has > a very distinct sweet smell. I would not recommend a pressure test on an 18 year old cooling system. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual >>> last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I would not recommend a pressure test on an 18 year old cooling system. Why not ? If the cooling system is in that poor of a condition that a pressure test will cause it to fail, those parts needed to be replaced anyway. Think of it this way. If it were my vehicle I would rather have a failure in the shop rather than on the road. He has already stated that it was overheating, the coolant was boiling in the radiator and being blown into the resevoir.That is already a toture test of the cooling system. >>>> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service manual >>>> last night and it suggested to check under/inside the oil filler cap [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > was overheating, the coolant was boiling in the radiator and being blown > into the resevoir.That is already a toture test of the cooling system. Exactly right! The reason for a pressure test is too find a leak or a weak point in the cooling system. What benefit is their in putting off finding the problem until help is miles away? Bob >>>>> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service >>>>> manual [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > the problem until help is miles away? > Bob A cooling system pressure test is not all it's cracked up to be. With the engine running at operating temperature, if there is a leak, you'll see it. I've seen careless technicians overpressurize the cooling system and cause problems. If the radiator cap is working properly, it will act like a pressure relief valve and vent excess pressure. Hooking a pump up to the radiator neck means that you do not have the cap to relieve pressure if too much builds up. Testing or replacing the cap is a much safer course of action. I've visited a lot of dealerships and looked at a lot of problem vehicles and have never had to resort to a pressure test. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) I went to the dealer and bought a new rad cap, easy fix and this weekend, I am going to add new antifreeze and distilled water, and run it to see. As for letting bubbles out air, am I right to assume that I start the engine cold and pour the antifreeze/water in while it is running? Also, I noticed Canadian tire markets special deionized water, am I okay with distilled since I already bought it. To pressure test or not: I emailed a pretty big Radiator garage about a pressure test and this is what they said; "The best we can offer to you at the present time is to bring your vehicle in this Saturday and we will pressure test your system for free and hopefully find out where your coolant is going. More than likely, if you have never noticed any coolant on the ground (leaks) your vehicle probably has a intake or head gasket leak." It is free, I am inclined to do it this Saturday morning and let the chips fall where they may. My thinking is usually, if it ain't broke, but it is broke, so may as well go for it. >I went to the dealer and bought a new rad cap, easy fix and this > weekend, I am going to add new antifreeze and distilled water, and run > it to see. As for letting bubbles out air, am I right to assume that I > start the engine cold and pour the antifreeze/water in while it is > running? Also, I noticed Canadian tire markets special deionized water, > am I okay with distilled since I already bought it. To refill the coolant, first set the heater control all the way to hot. With the engine cold, fill the radiator to the bottom of the neck and the overflow bottle to just above the "cold" line. With the radiator cap off, start the engine and watch the coolant level in the radiator. As the thermostat opens, the coolant level should begin to drop. As this happens, gradually top off the coolant until it no longer goes down and replace the radiator cap. A properly functioning radiator cap should allow some coolant in the overflow bottle to get sucked into the radiator to completely fill the last bit. Watch the level in the overflow bottle - if it is going down quickly, then coolant is either going out the exhaust or leaking. Distilled water is fine for mixing with concentrated coolant. A lot of people use tap water, which contains minerals that will eventually cause build up in the cooling system. The factory fill is mixed with distilled water. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service >>>>>> manual [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > A cooling system pressure test is not all it's cracked up to be. A pressure test is just a tool to help locate leaks faster, nothing more. With the > engine running at operating temperature, if there is a leak, you'll see > it. Maybe, maybe not. A properly operating cooling system doesn't always build enough pressure to make the system leak. > I've seen careless technicians overpressurize the cooling system and cause > problems. I've never seen that happen once in over 25 years. However, I have seen weak hoses burst, weak radiators start leaking, etc....WITHOUT overpressuring the cooling system. These parts were bad and would have failed under normal operating conditions once the necessary pressure was reached. Fortunately, for the customer, it happened in the shop and not on the road. Are you confusing " careless tchnicians " with weakened parts ? If the radiator cap is working properly, it will act like a > pressure relief valve and vent excess pressure. Hooking a pump up to the > radiator neck means that you do not have the cap to relieve pressure if > too much builds up. My pressure tester does the same thing. It has a built in pressure relief and won't go over 19 lbs. Testing or replacing the cap is a much safer course of > action. How does testing or replacing a cap pressurize a system to help find a leak ? I've visited a lot of dealerships and looked at a lot of problem > vehicles and have never had to resort to a pressure test. So what. You act like a pressure tester is someting to avoid at all costs. It's just a tool. How it's used is up to the person using it. If you pressurize a cooling system and a hose fails it is not beacause of the pressure test. The hose was bad and would have failed anyway during normal use as soon as the cooling system reached that pressure. Try finding that weak hose without a pressure tester. >>>>>>> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service >>>>>>> manual [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > Maybe, maybe not. A properly operating cooling system doesn't always > build enough pressure to make the system leak. If a properly operating cooling system does not build enough pressure to make it leak, why would want to make it leak? >> I've seen careless technicians overpressurize the cooling system and >> cause problems. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reached. Fortunately, for the customer, it happened in the shop and not on > the road. Are you confusing " careless tchnicians " with weakened parts ? I've heard this reasoning for pressure testing a cooling system many times and the logic behind it is a lot like doing a cardio-vascualar stress test at a doctor's office - if you're going to have a problem it's better to have it happen where help is available. I agree with this logic to a certain extent, but pressure testing an 18 year old system is like doing a stress test on a 95 year old person - the likelihood that you'll pass is pretty slim. If the customer is willing to spend money to replace hoses, radiator, etc. if the test fails, then I see no problem but the repairs may cost more than the car is worth. If you are chasing a leak, using dye and black light is probably a lot kinder to the sysetem. > If the radiator cap is working properly, it will act like a >> pressure relief valve and vent excess pressure. Hooking a pump up to the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > How does testing or replacing a cap pressurize a system to help find a > leak ? You can check a radiator cap to see how much pressure it will hold before venting. If it is letting air in or not holding pressure, the system will tend to run hot. > I've visited a lot of dealerships and looked at a lot of problem >> vehicles and have never had to resort to a pressure test. > > So what. You act like a pressure tester is someting to avoid at all > costs. I guess I was a little unclear. I meant that a pressure test on an 18 year old car may cause more problems than the customer is willing to pay for. > It's just a tool. How it's used is up to the person using it. If you > pressurize a cooling system and a hose fails it is not beacause of the > pressure test. The hose was bad and would have failed anyway during normal > use as soon as the cooling system reached that pressure. Try finding that > weak hose without a pressure tester. I agree 100% that the effectiveness of a pressure tester, like all tools is up to the person using it. It sounds like you are a technician and if so, I suspect that you can tell from a visual inspection whether the hoses and radiator are in good shape or not. Hopefully, a doctor is not going to make a 95 year old patient with chest pains and difficulty breathing hop on the tread mill to see what's going on. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) interesting following this, how does the black dye work?? do you need to flush it after? > interesting following this, how does the black dye work?? do you need > to flush it after? Actually, the dye is not black, however, it is visible under black light. There are various dyes available, depending on what kind of leak you are looking for. There are dyes for coolant, engine oil, ATF, etc. Add the dye, drive the vehicle for a while, and then shine the black light and look for the fresh trail. It was factory specified equipment for AMC dealers, I think GM dealers also had a similar kit. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>>>>>>> Thank you very much, a little precision, I was reading a service >>>>>>>> manual [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > radiator, etc. if the test fails, then I see no problem but the repairs > may cost more than the car is worth. I just don't see your logic in all this. A 95 year old dies from a stress test, that's a loss of human life. That a far cry from having a raiator hose burst during a pressure test. I have never run across a customer that couldn't afford to replace bad radiator hoses no matter how old the car was. Are you saying it would be better to let the customer drive off with weak cooling system parts that would fail while driving ? Now he drives off and the hose bursts. Now he still has to pay for the hose but add in the cost of a tow and the possiblity of engine damage due to coolant loss. Preventitive maintenance means that you find and fix a potential problem BEFORE it becomes a problem. It does not mean you wait for it to break completly. > If you are chasing a leak, using dye and black light is probably a lot > kinder to the sysetem. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > venting. If it is letting air in or not holding pressure, the system will > tend to run hot. But it still does nothing for locating a leak. >> I've visited a lot of dealerships and looked at a lot of problem >>> vehicles and have never had to resort to a pressure test. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > year old car may cause more problems than the customer is willing to pay > for. This may be a possibility. It's been my experiance that when a customer brings their car into the shop they are already prepared to spend money. They brought their car in because they are having problems and want it fixed. >> It's just a tool. How it's used is up to the person using it. If you >> pressurize a cooling system and a hose fails it is not beacause of the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to make a 95 year old patient with chest pains and difficulty breathing > hop on the tread mill to see what's going on. <extra headers and text snipped> >>> I've never seen that happen once in over 25 years. However, I have >>> seen weak hoses burst, weak radiators start leaking, etc....WITHOUT [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > potential problem BEFORE it becomes a problem. It does not mean you wait > for it to break completly. From what I've seen, it is not the hose that bursts during a pressure test, because an experienced technician can usually tell visually if the hose needs replacement and would recommend a hose replacement. Older Toyotas used to have problems with the crimp betwen the core and upper and and lower tanks. For some reason, they would last a long time without any problem but when someone did a pressure test, the crimps would fail. <snipped> >> I guess I was a little unclear. I meant that a pressure test on an 18 >> year old car may cause more problems than the customer is willing to pay [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They brought their car in because they are having problems and want it > fixed. Our experiences are probably a liittle different. 100% of the cars I looked at were Toyotas, and I looked at them becuase A) the dealer was having trouble fixing it or wasn't sure if it needed fixing or not; B) it didn't need fixing but I had to meet with the customer and explain why it didn't need fixing: or C) it was out of warranty and the customer wanted Toyota to pay for it anyway. The people in category (C) either couldn't or wouldn't pay so I keep the age and value of the vehicle in mind when making recocmmendations or authorizing out of warranty repairs. The OP keeps snipping out his original posts so I don't remember all the symptoms and what has been suggested or checked on the cooling system, but I'm beginning to think there is a head gasket problem, and a pressure test won't confirm a head gasket problem. This isn't the first time that I might be wrong, but I don't think the OP wants to spend $500 on hoses and a radiator and then find out that he has to spend another $1,000+ on a head gasket on an 18 year old vehicle that is barely worth the cost of the repairs. Ray O (correct punctuation to reply) >(snip) Ever hear of trimming a post? Are all Mikes morons? >>(snip) > > Ever hear of trimming a post? > > Are all Mikes morons? No. Are all dizzys dickheads ??? Or are you just a wantabe net cop ??? > I seemed to have had my wrist slapped for cross-posting this and even > doing it incorrectly. You originally didn't "cross-post", you posted individual messages to many separate groups. That's not the same thing at all. I see you've cross-posted correctly with this message. You've posted to only three groups, and all of them are reasonably related to your problem. Congratulations for learning your lesson. :) Thanks, I see the benefits to it (cross-posting correctly) too for all involved. > I have noticed some white exhaust but it is cold presently and I see > many cars with similar white exhaust.. That's common when it's cold outside. If the white smoke continues after the engine and exhaust are fully warmed up, then you have a problem. lots of smoke. I replaced the coolant last night as per the instructions given and ran it, thought I would go for a drive and as I pulled out, it was blowing a lot of white smoke (note that this started with the engine getting almost to red because it had lost at leat 4 litres of coolant which I added plus 1 litre approx for the overflow) so this was the first time I restarted it. Not sure if it was blowing off steam or it points to a head gasket problem. Anyway, went for a drive and smoke went away, ran it on the highway for about 4 km and it ran good a strong but it idled rough. This morning started it again, still some good amount of smoke and rough idle. Tomorrow I take it to a shop. Looking for opinions: does it sound like a head gasket or is it blowing off some smoke at this point? Check the fluid again! If it is still full, no issues. If it is low, then I would pull the spark plugs for a look see. If you find one or two plugs really clean and the rest dirty, you have likely found the head gasket leak. You can also run it with the rad cap off and watch for smoke. Lots of times smoke will come out the rad or you could pinch the overflow line closed and carefully hold your hand over the rad opening for a few seconds to feel for puffs. You can sometimes feel the compression going into the rad this way. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > lots of smoke. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Looking for opinions: does it sound like a head gasket or is it blowing > off some smoke at this point? After the 10 minute run on the highway, it was running rough, looking at the overflow, it is a bit higher than when I filled it up to the cold mark but no signs of oil from what I could tell. What would explain the rough idling at this point? --needs some time to recover from the overheat? I will pull the plugs tonight and try your other tips to feel for puffs. Once it cools check the radiator fluid level. If it is low then the head gasket is suspect for sure. The rough running could be a failed plug or wire or even some crud in the distributor cap. To check the wires, I use a spary mist of water on them in the dark with the engine running. If they have heat failed, you will get quite the light show. A head gasket isn't that hard to change on that engine if I remember right. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > After the 10 minute run on the highway, it was running rough, looking > at the overflow, it is a bit higher than when I filled it up to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I will pull the plugs tonight and try your other tips to feel for puffs. oops, should be 'spray mist' of water... Mike > Once it cools check the radiator fluid level. If it is low then the > head gasket is suspect for sure. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > > I will pull the plugs tonight and try your other tips to feel for puffs. Very much appreciated. |
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