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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / March 2006

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Oil Pressure Assumptions.....

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Caprice85 - 24 Mar 2006 17:30 GMT
I'm trying to increase the oil pressure in a 96 Nissan Sentra 1.6 Liter
engine. The oil light comes on with engine hot, idling in Drive, goes
out when put in neutral. I just changed the oil from 10w-30 to 20-w-50,
and the light has not come on again    :)    But it's still making a
lot of valve noise when hot, so pressure seems to still be aproblem.  I
had a mech put a gauge on it and was reading ZERO when hot and idling,
and only 15 when revved to about 1500. I know, don't drive it.

I think there is still something else that can be done to improve the
oil pressure. I have received conflicting predictions about whether the
op wouild be affected by it.

There is supposed to be an "oil pressure regulator" valve on the engine
block, which is covered by the oil filter. When changing the filter, I
noticed, on the engine block,  there is only a hole with a spring
resting loosely inside. No cap, poppet, lid, etc covering the hole.
Just a wide open bypass hole. Looks like the "op reg valve" broke off
and went somehwere, I hope into the garbage after an oil change, and
not up into the engine !!    :(   don't know.

I have orderd the part from Nissan and will get it tomorrow.

My question is whether the bypass being wide open constanly is
affecting the op.

My ASSUMPTIONS (some redundant, admitted)  are :

A.   The oil flows from the pump directly up to the filter inlet
(unless pump bypass is stuck open!)

B.   Once the oil is entering the oil filter area, most, or all of it,
is going right into the open bypass hole, and ignoring the filter,
since it is getting resistance there. Maybe 10 percent of the oil is
going thu the filter if rpms are high enough.

C.  The oil pressure is its highest immediately after it leaves the
pump, and DECREASES as it encounters bleedoff opportunities on its
journey through the engine.

D.  The oil pressure AFTER an obstruction,  like an oil filter, will be
lower than the oil press in front of the obstruction.

E.  An obstruction acts to INCREASE the oil pressure in the oil in
front of (before) the obstruction. (Same as D, I know)

F.  The idiot light op sensor is located AFTER the oil filter and also
AFTER the bypass hole.

G.  The oil flowing thru the filter and thru the bypass hole end up in
the same channel, the oil from both sources recombines somewhere, like
two streams feeding into a river, then goes on its way up to the head.

H.  Installing the "oil pressure regulator valve"  will INCREASE the op
BEFORE the oil filter, but may actually DECREASE the op after the
filter, since now the oil will be forced into the filter (obstruction)
intead of just flowing thru the wide open bypass hole as before. BTW
this is a new, clean unplugged filter).

    Thanks.  Some folks have told me installing the new bypass valve
will boost the oil pressure, even  AFTER the filter, but I don't see
how. I hope it does, but I don't see how.

Thanks for any replies !!
jfrancis311@gmail.com - 24 Mar 2006 17:37 GMT
Sounds like it is time for a new engine. How many miles on it?
Caprice85 - 25 Mar 2006 07:02 GMT
<<< Sounds like it is time for a new engine. How many miles on it?

177,000 miles.   Has been clacking for about a year. No definitive
answers from mechanics about the cause. Could be this, that, etc.   Oil
and filter were changed every 5 to 7 k miles.
N8N - 24 Mar 2006 17:42 GMT
> I'm trying to increase the oil pressure in a 96 Nissan Sentra 1.6 Liter
> engine. The oil light comes on with engine hot, idling in Drive, goes
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> My question is whether the bypass being wide open constanly is
> affecting the op.

<snip>

ABSOLUTELY!  I don't have specific knowledge of Nissans, but on engines
that I have worked on, the OPRV works like this; when oil pressure is
above a specified value, usually around 50-80 PSI depending on specific
engine, the valve opens and allows oil to bypass the normal galleries
and dumps it straight back into the oil pan.  (well, maybe not straight
- on a Studebaker, for instance, the OPRV also provides lubrication for
the timing gears.  But I digress, and you get the idea.)  The whole
purpose of this is to bleed off oil pressure when it could be too high,
such as immediately after a cold start or excessively high RPM
operation so that you don't blow apart oil filters, wash the babbitt
off of your bearings, etc.

At hot idle, oil pressure is almost never above the opening pressure of
the OPRV, and the OPRV should be fully closed.  This is almost
certainly the source of your problem.  In fact I'd be surprised if you
had any measurable oil pressure under the circumstances you describe!

As an aside, this is yet another reason why ALL cars should be fitted
with oil pressure GAUGES not idiot lights... who knows how long this
car was run with marginal oil pressure before anyone saw/heard a
problem...

Once you get the new OPRV parts and have them installed, leave the
gauge hooked up and let us know what you find.  I'm guessing you will
be pleasantly surprised by the results, and I hope that you don't have
any issues with this engine caused by being run with such low oil
pressure.

The only thing that concerns me is the location you specified for the
OPRV.  From your description it could either be as I described, or it
could be a bypass valve which opens when the pressure *drop* across the
oil filter element gets too high (i.e. it's clogged) in which case
replacing same will restore proper operation of your oil filter but may
not improve your oil pressure.  I'm hoping it's the former, and the
nomenclature that they used ("pressure regulator") makes me somewhat
hopeful for you...

good luck,

nate
John S. - 24 Mar 2006 18:05 GMT
After you replace that valve you should consider hooking up an oil
pressure gauge to find out if the pressure is truly within spec.

I could start ranting about how useful the three basic gauges are for
monitoring your car's performance.  But as cars and their interiors
have been downsized some features have given way.  I would trade that
oversized tach for an oil pressure and voltage meter (or ammeter) in a
heartbeat.

The last car I had that was set up for full gauges was a 1988 Volvo
740.  It had slots for gauges within the very readable instrument
panel.
dnoyeB - 24 Mar 2006 19:42 GMT
> After you replace that valve you should consider hooking up an oil
> pressure gauge to find out if the pressure is truly within spec.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 740.  It had slots for gauges within the very readable instrument
> panel.

Downsized?  Not in the US.

I think the gauges went away because they revealed any misperformance of
the engine and caused more warranty claims.  Also some users didnt
understand them and would bring the vehicles in for stuff that was not
an issue.

 Im sure the OEMs have no issue with you installing one after the
warranty period is up.

Signature

Thank you,

"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

John S. - 24 Mar 2006 22:17 GMT
> > After you replace that valve you should consider hooking up an oil
> > pressure gauge to find out if the pressure is truly within spec.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Downsized?  Not in the US.

Sure it is, look at the instrument panel.  It's smaller and filled up
with outsized and useless tachometer, and a travel information screen.
With most cars using front wheel drive one would expect to have more
legroom, but that's saken up by a console filled with all manner of
cupholders, cd racks switches and the like.  The interior of most
american cars is smaller than it once was although car makers do make
more efficient use of the remaining space.

> I think the gauges went away because they revealed any misperformance of
> the engine and caused more warranty claims.  Also some users didnt
> understand them and would bring the vehicles in for stuff that was not
> an issue.

Naw, cars as a group are far far more reliable than 25 or more years
ago.  It is nothing to have a car go 300,000 miles and at least one car
maker gives a 100k mile warranty.  Gauges disappeared because not
enough people really used them, cars were shrinking in size and car
makers could use the space for other more useful things like oversized
tachs, full entertainment centers and automotive compasses.

>   Im sure the OEMs have no issue with you installing one after the
> warranty period is up.

Try to find the room to fit an oil and amp gauge in or alongside a
modern instrument panel.  Sure you can tack a plastic or metal bezel to
the bottom of the dash, but that looks like a typical backyard
modification.
Bob Urz - 25 Mar 2006 02:19 GMT
> Sure it is, look at the instrument panel.  It's smaller and filled up
> with outsized and useless tachometer, and a travel information screen.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> makers could use the space for other more useful things like oversized
> tachs,

You just said "It's smaller and filled up with outsized and useless
tachometer" and now you say more useful things like a oversized tach?

Tell me how useful a tach is on a automatic transmission car?
Give me a oil pressure gauge and a volt meter any day. Then give
me the tach.

 full entertainment centers and automotive compasses.

Compass? Men never get lost..........  ;)

>>  Im sure the OEMs have no issue with you installing one after the
>>warranty period is up.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the bottom of the dash, but that looks like a typical backyard
> modification.

I remember back in the 60's seeing the 3 pack combo of round gauges for
oil, water, volts hanging under the dash. It was either cool or ugly
depending on your point of view. Of course that was in pre "pimp my
ride" days. On some cars, there were optional dashes with real gauges.
On some cars your can retro fit them in.

Bob
sdlomi2 - 25 Mar 2006 04:03 GMT
>> Sure it is, look at the instrument panel.  It's smaller and filled up
>> with outsized and useless tachometer, and a travel information screen.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Tell me how useful a tach is on a automatic transmission car?
>snip<
   Bob, I believe when John said "car makers could use the space for other
more useful things like oversized tachs, full entertainment centers and
automotive compasses", he was saying so in jest, merely being sarcastic.
Surely,  you guys are in agreement--or so it seems to me.  s
John S. - 25 Mar 2006 04:10 GMT
> > Sure it is, look at the instrument panel.  It's smaller and filled up
> > with outsized and useless tachometer, and a travel information screen.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> You just said "It's smaller and filled up with outsized and useless
> tachometer" and now you say more useful things like a oversized tach?

Sarcasm sometimes doesn't come across very well in writing, although
the comment about entertainment centers in automobiles might give a
hint about my feelings.  Or more plainly, tachometers of any size are
little more that visual entertainment for virtually all drivers.  The
needle goes up, the needle goes down but the useful information it
might provide in a very few situations goes unnoticed.

> Tell me how useful a tach is on a automatic transmission car?
> Give me a oil pressure gauge and a volt meter any day. Then give
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> ride" days. On some cars, there were optional dashes with real gauges.
> On some cars your can retro fit them in.

Oh, yeah, the little chrome three gauge bezel looked kinda cool to more
than one teenage guy in the 1960's.  My college car, a 1959 Morris
Minor had one gauge - fuel.  Temperature and oil pressure were idiot
lights on the speedo.  OTOH most of the older cars I owned prior to
that had a full complement of useful gauges.  As did a 1972 Ford F-250.

I have got to ask...what does pimping a ride mean given that a pimp and
the business he engages in are not exactly pleasant or savory.
Bob Urz - 25 Mar 2006 04:56 GMT
>>>Sure it is, look at the instrument panel.  It's smaller and filled up
>>>with outsized and useless tachometer, and a travel information screen.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Minor had one gauge - fuel.  Temperature and oil pressure were idiot
> lights on the speedo.  OTOH most of the older cars I owned prior to

I guess some late model vehicles have a gauge that is no more than
a idiot light....

> I have got to ask...what does pimping a ride mean given that a pimp and
> the business he engages in are not exactly pleasant or savory.

Ah, for the good ole days of super fly and when you could tell a pimp
mobile at 1/4 mile. Remember those round chrome headlight covers on
the caddies?

Today's pimp my ride:
http://www.tv.com/pimp-my-ride/show/26075/summary.html
I have got a old barracuda in the garage if they need
a project!

Bob
news - 25 Mar 2006 05:02 GMT
> Try to find the room to fit an oil and amp gauge in or alongside a
> modern instrument panel.  Sure you can tack a plastic or metal bezel to
> the bottom of the dash, but that looks like a typical backyard
> modification.

Man, you guys need a Firebird. :)
Comes factory with full gauges.
You can get an aftermarket a-pillar "pod" for more gauges.
And the dash vents just happen to hold 2 5/8 gauges.
(they're round...)

Ray
John S. - 26 Mar 2006 16:44 GMT
> > Try to find the room to fit an oil and amp gauge in or alongside a
> > modern instrument panel.  Sure you can tack a plastic or metal bezel to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Ray

Serious..???  Real analog oil, temp and volt meters with real numbers
that fit inside the instrument panel????
Steve - 27 Mar 2006 18:52 GMT
> Naw, cars as a group are far far more reliable than 25 or more years
> ago.  

I disagree with that entirely, but we've been around that tree a hundred
times before.

> It is nothing to have a car go 300,000 miles and at least one car
> maker gives a 100k mile warranty.

And all my 60's and 70s cars have gone that far, too. One's still
chugging at close to 450,000.

> Try to find the room to fit an oil and amp gauge in or alongside a
> modern instrument panel.  Sure you can tack a plastic or metal bezel to
> the bottom of the dash, but that looks like a typical backyard
> modification.

Some people's backyard modifications look more professional than a Lexus
dashboard.
Steve - 27 Mar 2006 18:48 GMT
>  I would trade that
> oversized tach for an oil pressure and voltage meter (or ammeter) in a
> heartbeat.

Amen. Carmakers now seem to think that a huge tach is more important
than any other gauge... even on automatic cars. Hell, anyone who can
actually *drive* doesn't even use the tach most of the time on a
stick-shift car. You shift by ear after the first half hour in the car,
except when pushing it to redline on every shift. Don't get me wrong, a
tach is very handy and does have uses even on automatics, but it doesn't
need to dominate the cluster or push aside more important gauges.
John S. - 27 Mar 2006 19:15 GMT
> >  I would trade that
> > oversized tach for an oil pressure and voltage meter (or ammeter) in a
> > heartbeat.
>
> Amen. Carmakers now seem to think that a huge tach is more important
> than any other gauge... even on automatic cars.

The tach has gradually morphed over the decades from an option for
performance cars to a standard feature on sporty cars to a standard
feature on all cars.  The car makers packaged it as part of a brand
image and was applied to more and more cars.  Similar to spoilers where
it was repeated so often that the image got watered down to
nothingness.  Heck the Taurus I rented last month had a tach!

> Hell, anyone who can
> actually *drive* doesn't even use the tach most of the time on a
> stick-shift car. You shift by ear after the first half hour in the car,
> except when pushing it to redline on every shift. Don't get me wrong, a
> tach is very handy and does have uses even on automatics, but it doesn't
> need to dominate the cluster or push aside more important gauges.

Because so many cars have them it will be a difficult feature to get
rid of.  No car maker will take the first step and risk losing sales in
a difficult market.
HLS@nospam.nix - 24 Mar 2006 20:01 GMT
I hope you will post what you find out when you get the OPR.
I would really like to know where the ball, or whatever, went (that was a
part of
this pressure loaded device.)

IIFC, the old Fords (390 type blocks )had a pressure regulator built into
the oil pump.  Sometimes the springs would relax, and the oil pressure would
drop too low.  A
new spring, or just stretching the old one, would often revive the oil
pressure.
Caprice85 - 27 Mar 2006 19:34 GMT
>>>I hope you will post what you find out when you get the OPR.
I would really like to know where the ball, or whatever, went (that was
a
part of this pressure loaded device.)    <<<<

Nissan finally got the part in. It is a brass tube shaped like an empty
ammunition shell, which is open at both ends. It is about an inch long,
half an inch in diam. The opening at one end is closed off by a silver
ball bearing, which is pressed upon from inside  by a spring. The
spring is held in place by 2 crimps in the other end of the tube, which
is also open.   You can push the ball bearing in against the spring
pressure, with a light force.

Obviously(?) one would install the valve into the block by pressing it
into the hole in the block,  with the ball bearing end sticking out of
the block, pointing toward the filter, so that the it would allow oil
past the ball bearing, and into the engine and head, only when the
pressure was over a certain amount (plugged filter or high rpms).

The parts guy at the Nissan dealer said he didn't know which way to
install it. I tried to sneak over to a mechanic to ask, but was
intercepted by some managerial dude, who looked like Walter Matthau,
who tried to tell me the part was an anti-drainback valve !!

I'll get a chance to install it tomorrow.  I think the old shell casing
may still be stuck in the hole. There was a rough lip on the hole,
which maybe was the edge of the old shell. Guess I can reach in with
some small hooked instrument and grab one of the crimps at   the back
end of the shell and pull it out. We'll see.
 
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