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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / April 2006Corvair at auto auction
Yesterday my wife and I attended an auto auction held by RM Auctions near Toronto. Among the vehciles was a 1961 Corvair, which had been conveniently left with it engine cover open. I hade never seen a Corvair engine in the metal before, so I studied it for a while. Two questions eventually arose: 1) How do you get the oil filter off? 2) The generator belt appears to double as the cooling fan belt, and traces a rather creative path, flexing and twisting within two planes. Is this primarily why they tended to fail? And if so, why would GM have designed such a critical part do perform such calisthenics? > Yesterday my wife and I attended an auto auction held by RM Auctions > near Toronto. > > Among the vehciles was a 1961 Corvair, which had been conveniently > left with it engine cover open. I hade never seen Several embarrassing typos here. I had not completed my proofreading before accidentally hitting Send. My guess would be that GM was not all that smart then, just as they may not be all that smart now. >Yesterday my wife and I attended an auto auction held by RM Auctions >near Toronto. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Is this primarily why they tended to fail? And if so, why would GM have >designed such a critical part do perform such calisthenics? Hugo Schmeisser <invalid@invalid.c0m> wrote in article <oKmdnQy7b7Tri6TZRVn-tA@magma.ca>... > Yesterday my wife and I attended an auto auction held by RM Auctions > near Toronto. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Is this primarily why they tended to fail? And if so, why would GM have > designed such a critical part do perform such calisthenics? The Corvair engine, transmission and rear suspension were actually designed by some German guy named "Porsche" - on contract to GM..... Porsche was said to have a modicum of success in designing a "people's car" for Adolph Hitler, and also won a race or two with cars bearing his name...... The swing-axle rear that "automotive engineer" (no, not really!) Ralph Nadar cited in his vendetta against GM, was an almost-direct copy of the VW of that same era. If you ever worked on both, you would often wonder if some of the parts might be interchangeable...... .......as a matter of fact, Crown Engineering made a kit that allowed you to install a Corvair engine into a VW bus. I did a couple of these conversions back when........ > The swing-axle rear that "automotive engineer" (no, not really!) Ralph > Nadar cited in his vendetta against GM, was an almost-direct copy of the VW > of that same era. Nadar made a man for himself by bashing the Corvair design and making a lot of money by doing it. It's interesting that he also tried to bash the Chevy Citation design, but GM sold so many Citations that it backfired on him. Besides pocketing tax-payer raised presidential campaign money, exactly what does Nadar do for a living? Oh, wait. He's a lawyer. Never mind...... Kruse <kruse@kansas.net> wrote in article <1144613824.339690.268580@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>... > > The swing-axle rear that "automotive engineer" (no, not really!) Ralph > > Nadar cited in his vendetta against GM, was an almost-direct copy of the VW [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > campaign money, exactly what does Nadar do for a living? Oh, wait. He's > a lawyer. Never mind...... Way back when........ ...... I read that Nadar, flush with his "victory" over GM, decided to go after VW and Porsche for using the same rear suspension design, but was wisely advised that the Germans would chew him up and spit him out. Too bad GM - in an ill-advised P.R. effort - chose to roll over instead of crushing Nadar when they had the opportunity. >>The swing-axle rear that "automotive engineer" (no, not really!) Ralph >>Nadar cited in his vendetta against GM, was an almost-direct copy of the VW [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the Chevy Citation design, but GM sold so many Citations that it > backfired on him. Kind of a shame though. I owned a Citation, and it wasn't one of Chevy's better offerings. Certainly not up to the standards of the Corvair. > Hugo Schmeisser <invalid@invalid.c0m> wrote in article > <oKmdnQy7b7Tri6TZRVn-tA@magma.ca>... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > for Adolph Hitler, and also won a race or two with cars bearing his > name...... It was not unusual for those engines to start leaking oil before 50k miles and pretty soon the backend was covered in a fine layer of black oil. They also could pop a fan belt easier than a more conventionally designed car. Still they were fun to drive, altough they were light in the front end and skittish in winds. > The swing-axle rear that "automotive engineer" (no, not really!) Ralph > Nadar cited in his vendetta against GM, was an almost-direct copy of the VW [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to install a Corvair engine into a VW bus. I did a couple of these > conversions back when........ > It was not unusual for those engines to start leaking oil before 50k > miles and pretty soon the backend was covered in a fine layer of black > oil. They also could pop a fan belt easier than a more conventionally > designed car. Interesting. Just picked one up. Fun little car. 1964 Corvair, unfortunately not a Spyder, but it is a convertible. :) It was easy to toss a belt on the early models, especially the Spyder. Lift the throttle under boost you were almost guranteed to toss the belt. We changed one of the fixed tensioners for a spring loaded variable and this made a significant difference. GM later adopted a similar scheme. JW > > It was not unusual for those engines to start leaking oil before 50k > > miles and pretty soon the backend was covered in a fine layer of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > variable and this made a significant difference. GM later adopted a > similar scheme. Aha! An answer at last to my question! GM didn't realize belts would be ejected with such regularity. I suppose the spring-loaded tensioner was first installed in the 1965 model? > Aha! An answer at last to my question! GM didn't realize belts would be > ejected with such regularity. I suppose the spring-loaded tensioner was > first installed in the 1965 model? I dont' remember exactly, but I think that is right. Was '65 the "new" body style? If so, that was the first to have the spring loaded tensioner. JW > > It was not unusual for those engines to start leaking oil before 50k > > miles and pretty soon the backend was covered in a fine layer of black [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Interesting. Just picked one up. Fun little car. 1964 Corvair, > unfortunately not a Spyder, but it is a convertible. :) One of my high school buddies owned a new 1963 Corvair Monza 900. That car was a blast to cruise in! Within a year it also became a prime example of why late teen-age boys should not be given the keys to a new sporty looking car. > It was easy to toss a belt on the early models, especially the Spyder. > Lift the throttle under boost you were almost guranteed to toss the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > JW >One of my high school buddies owned a new 1963 Corvair Monza 900. That >car was a blast to cruise in! Within a year it also became a prime >example of why late teen-age boys should not be given the keys to a new >sporty looking car. Because you all got social diseases? --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." I've owned several Corvairs when I was much younger. After wrenching on them for several years, I realized a few things. 1. The oil issues were primarily due to pushrod tubes sealing O rings losing thier seal. VW's had pushrod tubes also, but the knew how to make them seal via a conical rubber seal that mated into a matching machined area in the head and block. GM tried to get by with a conventional style O ring pushed into a hole. Boneheaded. 2. I never had an belt throw, fail or anything of the kind. Probably the reason GM didn't go with a fan in the same plane as the crank pulley was that they mounted the spare tire in the engine compartment from the factory. Again, boneheaded. 3. AFAIK, Porsche nor VW had anything to do with the design of the Corvair engine. 4. The swing axle rear suspension was replaced by a fully independent rear suspension beginning in I thing 1965. That was also the year for the body change. I owned a 1965 Corsa and it was known as a "poor man's Porsche" and for good reason. It handled very well with a good set of radials and the quick steering arms. 5. The corvair holds the record for the highest carburetor count on any factory delivered American car. The 140HP engine had four one barrel Rochesters. And, they worked very well, too! > >One of my high school buddies owned a new 1963 Corvair Monza 900. That > >car was a blast to cruise in! Within a year it also became a prime > >example of why late teen-age boys should not be given the keys to a new > >sporty looking car. > > Because you all got social diseases? None that we would admit to... That car was raced just to death. Then the guy graduated from high school, got a job and bought a Dodge 426 ramcharger. And built that car into a mean street racer. I quit riding with him, bought a Morris Minor and went on to college. > --scott no more problems with the corvair than some others, a good car in my estimation, had a '61 and a '64 or '65 - and ran the hell out them. fan belts were likely to come off, and heat doors on the rear were likely to remain closed, but over all - a fine little car. btw - the oil filter location / removal might have been a bit squirrelly, but not bad, don't remember. If a guy could pick up a solid corvair at a reasonable price, and was a tinkerer, he could have some fun, there is not much to one to go bad. mho vfe > .......as a matter of fact, Crown Engineering made a kit that allowed > you to install a Corvair engine into a VW bus. I did a couple of these > conversions back when........ I remember those. You could also put a Corvair engine in a bug or a Karmann Ghia (which woulda been way cool). IIRC, you had to swap the ring gear to the other side of the pinion because the Corvair engine turned the opposite way of a bug engine. Or use a transporter (bus) transaxle which had gearing at the ends of the axles that reversed the rotation. It was kinda rough on the transaxle and clutch, esp if you used the higher powered engines. I believe the top engine was a 180hp turbocharged unit. There was also a kit to put a small block V8 in the Corvair. You had to turn the transaxle around and the engine went into where the rear seat (which was pretty useless anyway) normally was. I guess if you did it right, it was a real screamer. Sounds like a real PITA tho...having to put a radiator somewhere, build an enclosure around the engine, etc. But then, if it were easy, it wouldn't be as much fun... Corvairs were fun to drive if you watched out for the oversteer (or learned how to take advantage of it). They tended to leak oil after a while and often were belt-eaters, tho. The last ones (1965 or so, IIRC) were pretty nice...they did away with the rear swing-axles among other things. > Corvairs were fun to drive if you watched out for the oversteer (or > learned how to take advantage of it). They tended to leak oil after a > while and often were belt-eaters, tho. Which was the main subject of my original message, and no-one's answered that question: Why did GM allow such a critical component as the fan belt to flex and twist so much? > > Corvairs were fun to drive if you watched out for the oversteer (or > > learned how to take advantage of it). They tended to leak oil after a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > answered that question: Why did GM allow such a critical component as > the fan belt to flex and twist so much? Hubris. The fan belt was a problem but it was your problem. Also, the rear suspension allowed the wheels to tuck in under certain conditions and the car would roll. Earlier VW bugs had the same problem but fixed it with a sway bar or some such device. GM knew about the earlier VW problem and the VW fix but chose not to spend the trivial amount of money to avoid the problem. All and all, a bad showing on their part. FWIW, my doubles partner back then was a regional GM service rep.. He once commented that his management was concerned about an anti-trust suit because their U.S. market share was in the 70% range. Last I heard, it was under 25%. Forty years of hubris will do that. -J >>.......as a matter of fact, Crown Engineering made a kit that allowed >>you to install a Corvair engine into a VW bus. I did a couple of these [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > was kinda rough on the transaxle and clutch, esp if you used the higher > powered engines. I believe the top engine was a 180hp turbocharged unit. The other option for the 'backward engine roation' problem was to leave the engine in the rear behind the transaxle, use a Kennedy adapter to mount it and get the cam that allowed the engine to rotate in the opposite direction. A buddy of mine has a dune buggy with this setup. Goofy workaround (and a replacement cam is impossible to find these days) but it works. At least when it runs. ;) > [...] >Corvairs were fun to drive if you watched out for the oversteer (or >learned how to take advantage of it). They tended to leak oil after a >while and often were belt-eaters, tho. The last ones (1965 or so, IIRC) >were pretty nice...they did away with the rear swing-axles among other >things. Corvairs were made in all the "6" years, 1960-1969. Signature+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Brian Gordon -->briang@panix.com<-- brian.gordon at cox dot net | + Bass: "Spirit of Phoenix" SPEBSQSA Chorus + -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- <snip> > The Corvair engine, transmission and rear suspension were actually > designed by some German guy named "Porsche" - on contract to GM..... Interesting. Except that Porsche and VW cooling fans are mounted vertically. On reflection I suppose there may heve been issues with rear leg room, which appears to be somewhat scanty in the Corvair compared to other contemporary compacts. If a cooling fan had been mounted vertically, GM would probably have to have installed it on top of the engine instead of behind it, in order to limit the length of the assembly. But then that would have created height problems. And if GM had driven a horizontal fan off a distributor-type gear drive, that may have presented other difficulties. It's almost as if the concept was doomed from the start. since I liked the corvair automobile in it's heyday and haven't seen a present day price, what are they going for now - if you can find one? mho vfe > since I liked the corvair automobile in it's heyday and haven't seen a > present day price, what are they going for now - if you can find one? > > mho > vfe It really varies. I have seen beat piles of junk sell for $4k, and I have seen decent(not showroom) convertibles for $1500. I would say $2500 would buy you a respectable driver. It will need some TLC here and there(but what at 40 yrs old doesn't). JW |
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