Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / April 2006
nitrogen in passenger car tires?
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bob - 18 Apr 2006 03:20 GMT good idea or waste of time?
what's the science behind it?
bob
Don Bruder - 18 Apr 2006 04:36 GMT > good idea or waste of time? Waste of time - you're already running something in the neighborhood of a 75% nitrogen mix in your tires.
> what's the science behind it? There is none - Unless the science of "separating suckers from their money" counts.
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y_p_w - 18 Apr 2006 07:24 GMT >>good idea or waste of time? > > Waste of time - you're already running something in the neighborhood of > a 75% nitrogen mix in your tires. Closer to 80%, but who's counting?
>>what's the science behind it? > > There is none - Unless the science of "separating suckers from their > money" counts. There is a certain amount of science to it. Not so much that nitrogen is so much better, but that the purified nitrogen is generally free of moisture. Race tires often use nitrogen or simply "dry air". They claim that pure nitrogen is les permeable (leaks slower), but again atmospheric air is 79% nitrogen. Personally I think it's easier to just check the tires more often with an accurate gauge. The other claim is that oxygen will eventually oxidize th rubber. I think that's BS, since a tire has a liner that shouldn't readily oxidize. Oxygen will penetrate from the outside into the rubber anyways.
Most of the explanations I've heard seem more like pseudo-science that sounds like it might be worth an extra $40.
Most Costco locations now use nitrogen at no extra cost. I brought a car in (not mine) and they made sure to deflate the tires and fill with nitrogen after a free rotation. I wouldn't pay for it though.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 19 Apr 2006 04:47 GMT Nitrogen in your tires: an inflated idea? Advocates say filling your tires with the gas instead of air will help keep correct pressure and better gas mileage.
By TOM ZUCCO, Times Staff Writer Published September 28, 2005
Gassing up your car is about to take on a new meaning. Fill your tires with pure nitrogen and you'll get better gas mileage, advocates of the practice say. Your tires will be safer, and they'll last longer. A colorless, odorless, tasteless gas that makes up about 78 percent of the Earth's atmosphere, nitrogen could cost you as much as $10 a tire. But what you save on gas, tire replacement and peace of mind will make up the difference, according to the pitch. Already, retailers like Costco and Olin Mott stores offer nitrogen, and Pep Boys has test-marketed it. Starting Saturday, buyers of all new cars sold at select Crown dealerships in the Tampa Bay area will find their tires filled with nitrogen. Eventually, all 13 dealerships will offer it. The thinking is that nitrogen's larger molecules prevent it from seeping out of a tire as quickly as air. So inflating tires with nearly pure nitrogen - which has been done for years in race cars, commercial airliners and long-distance trucks - allows them to retain correct pressure longer. Pressure is vital because a properly inflated tire is a safer, more efficient tire. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says most drivers can improve gas mileage by nearly 3 percent by keeping their vehicle tires within the recommended pressure range. The government also estimates the nation loses more than 2 million gallons of gas every day due to underinflated tires. Enter nitrogen. Chemical No. 7 on your periodic chart of the elements. At anywhere from $2 to $10 per tire. Besides attracting customers and addressing safety concerns, it's a way to fight inflation. Or rather, the lack of it, said Jim Myers, Crown's chief operating officer. "The whole theory is that air bleeds through the tire slowly," Myers said. "And if someone isn't diligent, any tire will lose air over time. But because of nitrogen's properties, that doesn't happen as quickly." Myers said Crown will also offer to replace air with nitrogen on any vehicle for $39. What happens if tire pressure drops and the driver is not near a garage or tire store that sells nitrogen? Topping off with compressed air won't hurt, tire experts say, and the tire can be purged and refilled with nitrogen later. So should motorists feel ... pressured to put nitrogen in their tires? "It sounds like it has mostly positive points," said Randy Bly, director of community relations for AAA Auto Club South in Tampa. "Nitrogen helps keep tires cooler under open highway conditions, and it's less likely to leak out, so that would help with fuel mileage. "The only negative would be the cost. But it may well be worth it." Nitrogen-filled tires stay inflated about three times as long as than air-filled tires, advocates say, and while a typical tire inflated with compressed air might lose 2.7 pounds of pressure monthly, one filled with nitrogen loses 0.7 pound. But Jim Davis, public relations manager for Goodyear Tire and Rubber, says replacing air with nitrogen is "a tough call." "The objective is to have the correct air pressure," Davis said. "And over time, minute amounts of air do leak out. "There is no harm to the tire from using regular air. But we urge people to check their tires monthly." What happens, Davis said, is that decreased air pressure flattens a tire, creating more surface area between the tire and the road. That added friction can make the engine work harder and cause tires to overheat, possibly leading to a blowout. "More tire surface means it takes more power to roll that tire," Davis said. "A correctly inflated tire is going to roll more easily." Checking tires for correct pressure also has a side benefit. "When you're down there, look at the tires," Davis said. "You may notice a nail or tread that is wearing abnormally, and you can catch it before the problem becomes worse." At least one tire manufacturer is even more skeptical about the advantages of nitrogen in the family car. Michelin officials recommend nitrogen only for tires used "in a high risk environment and/or when the user wants to reduce the consequences of a potential abnormal overheating of the tire-wheel assembly (for example in some aircraft applications)," according to a company statement. But for all other tires in normal use, nitrogen "is not required and does not necessarily bring the expected benefit. "It is true that the physical properties of nitrogen reduce the pressure loss due to the natural permeability of the materials of the tire and thus the broad use of nitrogen will in general assist motorists with pressure maintenance. "Nevertheless, the existence of several other possible sources of leaks (tire/rim interface, valve, valve/rim interface and the wheel) prevents the guarantee of better pressure maintenance for individuals using nitrogen inflation." So we can save the expense if we just check our tires regularly. The trouble is, we don't. As recently as two years ago, government and tire industry surveys showed close to 30 percent of cars, vans, pickups and SUVs on the road had at least one tire that was substantially underinflated, at least 8 psi below the recommended minimum pressure. But high gas prices and consumer education may be cutting into that number. According to a survey by Uniroyal Tire in mid August, nearly 50 percent of Americans said they are now checking the air pressure in their tires once a month. Still, that leaves millions of unchecked tires. "Most people don't take care of their tires on a regular basis," said Dave Zielasko, editor and publisher of Tire Business , an Akron, Ohio, trade publication. "Tires are one of the most underappreciated part of the vehicle. People take them for granted. But the reality is they do need to be checked. "Remember, it's the only part of the vehicle that touches the road."
Kevin Mouton - 19 Apr 2006 08:33 GMT ***********************quote************** Pressure is vital because a properly inflated tire is a safer, more efficient tire. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says
most drivers can improve gas mileage by nearly 3 percent by keeping their vehicle tires within the recommended pressure range. The government also estimates the nation loses more than 2 million gallons of gas every day due to underinflated tires
**************
I suspect that rather than saving energy consumption on a national level, the use of nitrogen in tires would do the opposit. The energy used to accumulate, purify, and compres the nitrogen would exceed the energy wasted by low inflated tires. Moisture is the real culprit that causes unstable tire pressures as the temperatures change. A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed air would solve most of the problem.
Kevin
Pete C. - 19 Apr 2006 20:19 GMT > ***********************quote************** > Pressure is vital because a properly inflated tire is a safer, more [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Kevin Another thing to note, is that if the oxygen leaks out of the tire faster than the nitrogen, the tire will act like a crude molecular sieve of sorts. You keep filling the tire with air at some 78% nitrogen, the 21% oxygen leaks out leaving the nitrogen, you top up with air, etc. and you end up with like 99% nitrogen after a while.
Pete C.
~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:49 GMT >A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed >air would solve most of the problem. What does it sulfur? Ammonia novice at this, so I can only take a gas at it.
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Scott Dorsey - 20 Apr 2006 15:38 GMT >>A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed >>air would solve most of the problem. > >What does it sulfur? Ammonia novice at this, so >I can only take a gas at it. I think you should take these bad puns and barium. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
~^Johnny^~ - 24 Apr 2006 01:57 GMT >>>A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed >>>air would solve most of the problem. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I think you should take these bad puns and barium. I feel so lead, my shellfish in two, Hish, son!.
So you wanna x-ray deep into my bowels? I do have a new technique on the drawing board, but it's still intestine stage.
It's alimentary, my friend.
 Signature -john wide-open at throttle dot info
~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:28 GMT >Advocates say filling your tires with the gas instead of air will help >keep correct pressure and better gas mileage. Heh heh...
Circa 1970, we did just that... filled the tires with gas(oline) vapor. WE used those "Engineair" kits, which screwed into a spark plug hole, and pumped the tire full of carbureted mix as the engine idled.
I believe they have been outlawed in most states, now. Then again, maybe not: <http://www.aerostich.com/product.php?productid=16780&cat=266&page=2>
 Signature -john wide-open at throttle dot info
Hugo Schmeisser - 18 Apr 2006 07:27 GMT > > good idea or waste of time? > > Waste of time - you're already running something in the neighborhood > of a 75% nitrogen mix in your tires. 78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases.
> > what's the science behind it? > > There is none - Unless the science of "separating suckers from their > money" counts. Apparently pure nitrogen is used by some truck fleets. The absence of oxygen means absence of moisture, and better control of inflation pressures over operating temperature ranges. Some race cars use pure nitrogen as well, for the same reasons.
I do question the cost/benefit ratio of nitrogen in ordinary passenger cars, though. Doesn't seem worth it to me when I can get regular air for free with a bicycle pump. I just use an ordinary bicycle pump to add a few pounds here and there as needed.
Scott Dorsey - 18 Apr 2006 13:51 GMT >78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases. I bet a nickel it's a good bit more than 1% in Los Angeles. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Hugo Schmeisser - 18 Apr 2006 19:45 GMT > > 78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases. > > I bet a nickel it's a good bit more than 1% in Los Angeles.
:) Seriously, I was in Los Angeles this past summer. To the nose and eyes, your air is cleaner than that of Toronto, a much smaller city, and one that does not labour under a thermal inversion. I was impressed, actually. Perhaps it's due to a lack of diesel-powered city buses.
* - 18 Apr 2006 20:26 GMT Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article <e22nbl$lto$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> >78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases. > > I bet a nickel it's a good bit more than 1% in Los Angeles. > --scott One thing they measure in Los Angeles air that they don't measure anywhere else is the percentage of *solids!*
John S. - 18 Apr 2006 13:48 GMT > good idea or waste of time? > > what's the science behind it? > > bob What are the claimed benefits.
It won't improve milage, extend tire life or improve the ride, but it will separate you from some $$.
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Apr 2006 16:29 GMT "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote in message
> What are the claimed benefits. Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire. I have my doubts about it.. Have never seen definitive tests one way or the other.
The ozone cracking, etc, is normally more noticeable on the outside of the tire, isn't it?
It certainly doesn't hurt anything to use nitrogen, just like it doesn't hurt to use deionized water in your coolant system.
John S. - 18 Apr 2006 18:26 GMT > "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote in message > > What are the claimed benefits. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my doubts about it.. Have never seen definitive tests one way or the > other. Unless one was considering keeping the tire mounted for 30 years on the same rim I don't think that is an issue.
> The ozone cracking, etc, is normally more noticeable on the outside > of the tire, isn't it? Yup, that's what I would think too.
> It certainly doesn't hurt anything to use nitrogen, just like it doesn't > hurt to use deionized water in your coolant system. It won't hurt, and as long as it is free and easy to use then sure, why not use nitrogen.
I suspect that the only tire deterioration of any consequence is the result of tread-to-road contact. The rest of this supposed problem is the result of guys looking for some new automotive problem to worry about and a few entrepreneurs who are willing to provide an imaginary solution.
clifto - 18 Apr 2006 21:47 GMT > Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air > lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire. I have > my doubts about it.. I figure there's so much oxygen inside the tire. If it's combining with some element of the tires, pretty soon all the oxygen will be used up in the process of damaging the tire. However, the outside of the tire is constantly exposed to fresh air with 21% unconsumed oxygen, and therefore should deteriorate much, much faster than the inside of the tire.
I've never seen oxygen damage on the outside of any tire, I've never seen any oxygen damage on the inside of old tires removed from cars, and I've never ever heard of an oxygen failure of a tire.
Whatever else might be in the air you put in a tire, it's going to be consumed in the process of combining with the tire to cause damage; and the outside of the tire will be constantly exposed to much, much more of the same.
Now, as to whether there's any advantage regarding inflation pressure change from cold to hot, deponent further says not.
 Signature All relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Apr 2006 21:13 GMT > > Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air > > lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire. I have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with some element of the tires, pretty soon all the oxygen will be > used up in the process of damaging the tire. In particular, they speak of ozone damage. Ozone is a triatomic form of oxygen, and is considerably more reactive than diatomic oxygen. It usually forms when oxygen is subjected to electrical discharge, such as near high voltage transformers, lightning, electrostatic sources, etc. There are also chemical sources.
I did not mean to directly relate the oxygen to the damage. It is indirectly related through the formation of ozone and the further reaction of the ozone.
clifto - 21 Apr 2006 00:14 GMT > "clifto" <clifto@gmail.com> wrote... >> > Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > related through the formation of ozone and the further reaction of the > ozone. Okay, but you still don't have nearly as much ozone generated inside a tire as you do outside, where there are sunlight, ultraviolet light and electrical arc discharges. So even if there's significant ozone generation inside a tire, the outside still stands to take the most damage, the inside comparatively little.
 Signature All relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb
Don Stauffer - 21 Apr 2006 14:15 GMT > In particular, they speak of ozone damage. Ozone is a triatomic form of > oxygen, and is considerably more reactive than diatomic oxygen. It usually [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > related through the formation of ozone and the further reaction of the > ozone. UV radiation also creates ozone from O2. But how much UV radiation or lightning goes on inside a tire?
Dave Gower - 19 Apr 2006 05:59 GMT > Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air > lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire. I have > my doubts about it.. Have never seen definitive tests one way or the > other. I've seen those claims too. Even if they're right, I've never had a tire "decompose" in my almost 5 decades of driving. They either wear out or get damaged long before this happens. So I agree that its probably a gimmick.
Don Stauffer - 19 Apr 2006 14:54 GMT >>Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air >>lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire. I have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "decompose" in my almost 5 decades of driving. They either wear out or get > damaged long before this happens. So I agree that its probably a gimmick. I don't know about decomposition, but moisture in air greatly affects its pressure change with temperature. That is why racing tires are frequently filled with nitrogen or special "dried" air. With an unknown moisture content one has no good idea of what the pressure will get to when the tires heat up on track.
On passenger cars, the humid air does create a greater temperature change than predicted by simple gas equations. However, the fact that you need to check pressure more often when temps change doesn't seem worth the expense of a dried gas to me.
Bogus is argument that nitrogen molecules are larger and therefore leak out more slowly than air. Air is 80 percent nitrogen already, and oxygen, the other major constituent, is very similar in size and weight to nitrogen.
~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:44 GMT > Air is 80 percent nitrogen already, and >oxygen, the other major constituent, is very similar in size and weight >to nitrogen. Don't be a peon; use neon or Freon, which we all agree on!
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clifto - 20 Apr 2006 20:04 GMT > Don't be a peon; use neon or Freon, which we all agree on! You argon a get yours for punning. Perhaps the pun police will conduct a radon your premises. You'll be booed if you're xenon the streets.
 Signature All relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb
~^Johnny^~ - 24 Apr 2006 02:06 GMT >> Don't be a peon; use neon or Freon, which we all agree on! > >You argon a get yours for punning. Perhaps the pun police will conduct >a radon your premises. You'll be booed if you're xenon the streets. It's a joint effort, from the very grass roots. Your re-ply was covalent, and inert me. We'd like to bond with you, but just in case, we argon.
Dhoti say he's Sari? May bee, but he still gets a dressing down. That's gotta Sting. Police forgive me.
 Signature -john wide-open at throttle dot info
TE Cheah - 22 Apr 2006 14:02 GMT | It certainly doesn't hurt anything to use nitrogen I'm amazed how many of you in USA have not tried *nitrogen, when your petrol costs 1½x of prices in msia, must be due to your shops' higher charges from costlier labour.
In 11-04, 1 tyre shop here was confident that users would like the benefits, & offered for 4 days free *. I was amazed by their confidence so took their offer : got * pumped into 4 Michelin "green" tyres ( 205 & 195/65R15 @2.3kg/cm² ) with the lowest rolling resistance (rr) I know & already aligned to parallel ( no toe-in / out ). I think my tyres' rr dropped by 3-5% ( based on my accord's minimum tow force needed ), but tyres with very low aspect ratio ( little air / gas ) may feel nothing. My 6½" alloy wheels are now much cooler, & receive less shock ( over bumps ) than before. Steering is lighter too. I got the same results from 2 more cars' 70 series tyres. Tyres need not be pumped as often as before, i.e. saves time : my 4 Michelins' * need not be added, for 14 months ! I think these 5 benefits come from *'s lower molecular friction than air. Disadvantages are [i] I must not use a pressure gauge [ii] driving over bumps, or hitting kerbs, will need more care, to avoid losing *.
* - 22 Apr 2006 16:36 GMT > I > know & already aligned to parallel ( no toe-in / out ). If you think "0" static toe equals "0" dynamic toe, then you do not understand front-end alignment.
The fractions of an inch/millimeter set at static toe compensates for the stackup of thousandths of an inch tolerance in each steering component that allows wheels to move towards toe-out on RWD and toe-in on FWD under rolling conditions.
"0" static toe results in toe-out on RWD and toe-in on FWD when driving down the road (dynamic toe).
TE Cheah - 23 Apr 2006 04:27 GMT | "0" static toe results in ... toe-in on FWD when driving Then honda should prescribe static toe-out for my accord.
rr was higher ( @ both low & high speed ) when toe-in was 3mm ( as prescribed by honda ), whatever theory you read. I don't believe a fixed toe-in can be best for correction, @ any road speed.
Mysterios have little credibility, to me : I often ignore their posts.
* - 23 Apr 2006 14:40 GMT > | "0" static toe results in ... toe-in on FWD when driving > Then honda should prescribe static toe-out for my accord. Toe-out is standard recommendation for FWD cars. If you understood FEA, you would realize that Honda's specification is for toe-out..
~^Johnny^~ - 19 Apr 2006 01:57 GMT >It won't improve milage, extend tire life or improve the ride, but it >will separate you from some $$. So will freon and propane.
Those cans of "Fix-A-Flat" are an example...
I hate that stuff. Better to pump the tire my hand, if it's a slow leak, and drive to the nearest repair shop.
There, they have patches and compressed AIR. Works fine...
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~^Johnny^~ - 19 Apr 2006 02:07 GMT >It won't improve milage, extend tire life or improve the ride, but it >will separate you from some $$. Inflation has an impact on this, for sure.
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Scott Dorsey - 18 Apr 2006 13:48 GMT >good idea or waste of time? Of course it's a good idea. I always fill my tires with a mixture of about 80% nitrogen.
>what's the science behind it? It holds the tires and keeps them from getting flat, while costing much less than argon or neon mixes, and being less explosive than butane or propane. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
bob - 18 Apr 2006 23:25 GMT >>good idea or waste of time? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > less than argon or neon mixes, and being less explosive than butane or > propane. thank you scott..do you work at comedy central on wknds?
bob
fweddybear - 19 Apr 2006 00:08 GMT >>>good idea or waste of time? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > bob Its actually 6 of one, half dozen of another..... the only advantage I see with using nitrogen is that it will keep your tires up for a longer period of time and I believe the only reason for that is because it has something to do with density of nitrogen as opposed to oxygen. It takes longer to leak out (nitrogen). Another advantage is on racetracks.....but unless you use the road as one, there is no advantage there. Nitrogen will also not compress as quickly... it is a bit more stable than oxygen...
anything I missed?
Fwed
~^Johnny^~ - 19 Apr 2006 02:04 GMT >>>good idea or waste of time? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >thank you scott..do you work at comedy central on wknds? I have a proprietary blend of ozone, methyl bromide, sulfur trioxode, and water vapor.
I discovered it when I was a Weblo, retiring. It made such a boom in the trade, it was suppressed, just like the Pogue carburetor.
 Signature -john wide-open at throttle dot info
ray - 19 Apr 2006 03:09 GMT > good idea or waste of time? > > what's the science behind it? > > bob If you're in NASCAR Nextel Cup or F1 and you're measuring your air pressure to the nearest 1/4 pound and you want repeatability, you use nitrogen because there's no water vapour in there to introduce a random variable.
Otherwise you're just a sucker if you paid for this service... especially if you don't remember the last time you checked your tire pressure.
Ray
Steve W. - 19 Apr 2006 04:34 GMT > good idea or waste of time? > > what's the science behind it? > > bob Waste of time for the typical passenger car.
Science is that normal atmospheric air contains a mix of gases and water vapor. It is unpredictable in it's expansion rate with regard to temperature variations. Pure nitrogen on the other hand has a set expansion rate over temperature ranges. It is also a component gas of air that is not a problem if it gets vented (tire blowout or pressure adjustments), versus other gases that can be a problem. It is also cheaper than many other gases.
This is important in a race vehicle because a tire is part of the spring rate on the car and is one that is easily altered by raising/lowering the pressure in 1/4 - 1/2 pound increments as needed. It is also used to power many of the pit guns you see used. (high speed from high pressure)
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Norm De Plume - 19 Apr 2006 07:31 GMT > good idea or waste of time? Bad idea. What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water to fake your death so they'll stop hunting you? How are you going breathe air from your tires when they're filled with pure nitrogen? This is why I put only 100% oxygen in my front tires (too dangerous for the rears and spare - gas tank).
> what's the science behind it? Very sound Creation science, supplemented with the discoveries of L. Ron Hubbard.
Scott Dorsey - 19 Apr 2006 15:37 GMT >Bad idea. What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on >trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water >to fake your death so they'll stop hunting you? How are you going >breathe air from your tires when they're filled with pure nitrogen? >This is why I put only 100% oxygen in my front tires (too dangerous for >the rears and spare - gas tank). This is foolish. You should be using helium in your tires. Because helium is ligher than air, it will actually reduce the effective weight of your car without changing the mass. Of course, you have to top the tires off every hour because the gas diffuses through the rubber, but that's just the price you pay to be part of the leading edge of technology. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
John S. - 19 Apr 2006 15:42 GMT > >Bad idea. What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on > >trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that's just the price you pay to be part of the leading edge of technology. > --scott And you will have to adjust the mix of helium as you change altitude. That car could just go floating off into the sunset!!!
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 21 Apr 2006 02:34 GMT > > >Bad idea. What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on > > >trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And you will have to adjust the mix of helium as you change altitude. > That car could just go floating off into the sunset!!! No way! Cars are too heavy to float. They'll just flip over, wheels pointing up.
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~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:32 GMT >You should be using helium in your tires. Because >helium is ligher than air, it will actually reduce the effective weight >of your car without changing the mass. Helium filled boots are your best bet. You'll save on fuel, and on speeding tickets!
 Signature -john wide-open at throttle dot info
ray - 20 Apr 2006 03:37 GMT >>Bad idea. What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on >>trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that's just the price you pay to be part of the leading edge of technology. > --scott But you'll lose traction. So a RWD car should have helium in the front and co2 or xenon or radon in the back then? ;)
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Apr 2006 13:16 GMT If there are any of you that are as old as I am, let's test your memory.
Which service station chain had a marketing ploy in which they claimed to use Pink Air to fill your tires?
GreyGoose006 - 20 Apr 2006 21:55 GMT Nitrogen also has a lower rate of expansion than oxygen. the benefit is that when you inflate your tires to 35 p.s.i to go racing, the pressure wont change as much when the tires eat up. although since the air we normally put in is 79% Nirtogen anyway, it dosent really matter that much for u and me.
BTW, ive heard of some racing teams filling their tires w/ helium to lighten them by 6-8 ounces. i guess every little bit helps eh...
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Don Stauffer - 21 Apr 2006 14:17 GMT > Nitrogen also has a lower rate of expansion than oxygen. the benefit > is that when you inflate your tires to 35 p.s.i to go racing, the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > BTW, ive heard of some racing teams filling their tires w/ helium to > lighten them by 6-8 ounces. i guess every little bit helps eh... I was under the impression they both were fairly close to gas law, ie change proportional to temp in degrees R. Air, on average, N, and O are pretty much the same as far as dP/dT. Water vapor is something else.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 21 Apr 2006 02:41 GMT just curious - why so much activity on the subject, does anyone see an advantage to using it in personal cars, and if so - what is it?
mho ve
John S. - 21 Apr 2006 14:58 GMT > just curious - why so much activity on the subject, does anyone see an > advantage to using it in personal cars, and if so - what is it? I think the answer to your question is in the many previous posts.
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