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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / April 2006

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nitrogen in passenger car tires?

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bob - 18 Apr 2006 03:20 GMT
good idea or waste of time?

what's the science behind it?

bob
Don Bruder - 18 Apr 2006 04:36 GMT
> good idea or waste of time?

Waste of time - you're already running something in the neighborhood of  
a 75% nitrogen mix in your tires.

> what's the science behind it?

There is none - Unless the science of "separating suckers from their
money" counts.

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y_p_w - 18 Apr 2006 07:24 GMT
>>good idea or waste of time?
>
> Waste of time - you're already running something in the neighborhood of  
> a 75% nitrogen mix in your tires.

Closer to 80%, but who's counting?

>>what's the science behind it?
>
> There is none - Unless the science of "separating suckers from their
> money" counts.

There is a certain amount of science to it.  Not so much
that nitrogen is so much better, but that the purified
nitrogen is generally free of moisture.  Race tires often
use nitrogen or simply "dry air".  They claim that pure
nitrogen is les permeable (leaks slower), but again
atmospheric air is 79% nitrogen.  Personally I think it's
easier to just check the tires more often with an accurate
gauge.  The other claim is that oxygen will eventually
oxidize th rubber.  I think that's BS, since a tire has a
liner that shouldn't readily oxidize.  Oxygen will
penetrate from the outside into the rubber anyways.

Most of the explanations I've heard seem more like
pseudo-science that sounds like it might be worth an
extra $40.

Most Costco locations now use nitrogen at no extra cost.
I brought a car in (not mine) and they made sure to deflate
the tires and fill with nitrogen after a free rotation.  I
wouldn't pay for it though.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 19 Apr 2006 04:47 GMT
Nitrogen in your tires: an inflated idea?
Advocates say filling your tires with the gas instead of air will help
keep correct pressure and better gas mileage.

By TOM ZUCCO, Times Staff Writer
Published September 28, 2005

Gassing up your car is about to take on a new meaning.
Fill your tires with pure nitrogen and you'll get better gas mileage,
advocates of the practice say. Your tires will be safer, and they'll
last longer.
A colorless, odorless, tasteless gas that makes up about 78 percent of
the Earth's atmosphere, nitrogen could cost you as much as $10 a tire.
But what you save on gas, tire replacement and peace of mind will make
up the difference, according to the pitch.
Already, retailers like Costco and Olin Mott stores offer nitrogen, and
Pep Boys has test-marketed it.
Starting Saturday, buyers of all new cars sold at select Crown
dealerships in the Tampa Bay area will find their tires filled with
nitrogen. Eventually, all 13 dealerships will offer it.
The thinking is that nitrogen's larger molecules prevent it from seeping
out of a tire as quickly as air. So inflating tires with nearly pure
nitrogen - which has been done for years in race cars, commercial
airliners and long-distance trucks - allows them to retain correct
pressure longer.
Pressure is vital because a properly inflated tire is a safer, more
efficient tire. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says
most drivers can improve gas mileage by nearly 3 percent by keeping
their vehicle tires within the recommended pressure range. The
government also estimates the nation loses more than 2 million gallons
of gas every day due to underinflated tires.
Enter nitrogen. Chemical No. 7 on your periodic chart of the elements.
At anywhere from $2 to $10 per tire.
Besides attracting customers and addressing safety concerns, it's a way
to fight inflation. Or rather, the lack of it, said Jim Myers, Crown's
chief operating officer.
"The whole theory is that air bleeds through the tire slowly," Myers
said. "And if someone isn't diligent, any tire will lose air over time.
But because of nitrogen's properties, that doesn't happen as quickly."
Myers said Crown will also offer to replace air with nitrogen on any
vehicle for $39.
What happens if tire pressure drops and the driver is not near a garage
or tire store that sells nitrogen?
Topping off with compressed air won't hurt, tire experts say, and the
tire can be purged and refilled with nitrogen later.
So should motorists feel ... pressured to put nitrogen in their tires?
"It sounds like it has mostly positive points," said Randy Bly, director
of community relations for AAA Auto Club South in Tampa. "Nitrogen helps
keep tires cooler under open highway conditions, and it's less likely to
leak out, so that would help with fuel mileage.
"The only negative would be the cost. But it may well be worth it."
Nitrogen-filled tires stay inflated about three times as long as than
air-filled tires, advocates say, and while a typical tire inflated with
compressed air might lose 2.7 pounds of pressure monthly, one filled
with nitrogen loses 0.7 pound.
But Jim Davis, public relations manager for Goodyear Tire and Rubber,
says replacing air with nitrogen is "a tough call."
"The objective is to have the correct air pressure," Davis said. "And
over time, minute amounts of air do leak out.
"There is no harm to the tire from using regular air. But we urge people
to check their tires monthly."
What happens, Davis said, is that decreased air pressure flattens a
tire, creating more surface area between the tire and the road. That
added friction can make the engine work harder and cause tires to
overheat, possibly leading to a blowout.
"More tire surface means it takes more power to roll that tire," Davis
said. "A correctly inflated tire is going to roll more easily."
Checking tires for correct pressure also has a side benefit.
"When you're down there, look at the tires," Davis said. "You may notice
a nail or tread that is wearing abnormally, and you can catch it before
the problem becomes worse."
At least one tire manufacturer is even more skeptical about the
advantages of nitrogen in the family car.
Michelin officials recommend nitrogen only for tires used "in a high
risk environment and/or when the user wants to reduce the consequences
of a potential abnormal overheating of the tire-wheel assembly (for
example in some aircraft applications)," according to a company
statement.
But for all other tires in normal use, nitrogen "is not required and
does not necessarily bring the expected benefit.
"It is true that the physical properties of nitrogen reduce the pressure
loss due to the natural permeability of the materials of the tire and
thus the broad use of nitrogen will in general assist motorists with
pressure maintenance.
"Nevertheless, the existence of several other possible sources of leaks
(tire/rim interface, valve, valve/rim interface and the wheel) prevents
the guarantee of better pressure maintenance for individuals using
nitrogen inflation."
So we can save the expense if we just check our tires regularly.
The trouble is, we don't.
As recently as two years ago, government and tire industry surveys
showed close to 30 percent of cars, vans, pickups and SUVs on the road
had at least one tire that was substantially underinflated, at least 8
psi below the recommended minimum pressure.
But high gas prices and consumer education may be cutting into that
number. According to a survey by Uniroyal Tire in mid August, nearly 50
percent of Americans said they are now checking the air pressure in
their tires once a month.
Still, that leaves millions of unchecked tires.
"Most people don't take care of their tires on a regular basis," said
Dave Zielasko, editor and publisher of Tire Business , an Akron, Ohio,
trade publication. "Tires are one of the most underappreciated part of
the vehicle. People take them for granted. But the reality is they do
need to be checked.
"Remember, it's the only part of the vehicle that touches the road."
Kevin Mouton - 19 Apr 2006 08:33 GMT
***********************quote**************
Pressure is vital because a properly inflated tire is a safer, more
efficient tire. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says

most drivers can improve gas mileage by nearly 3 percent by keeping
their vehicle tires within the recommended pressure range. The
government also estimates the nation loses more than 2 million gallons
of gas every day due to underinflated tires

**************

I suspect that rather than saving energy consumption on a national
level, the use of nitrogen in tires would do the opposit. The energy
used to accumulate, purify, and compres the nitrogen would exceed the
energy wasted by low inflated tires.
Moisture is the real culprit that causes unstable tire pressures as the
temperatures change. A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed
air would solve most of the problem.

Kevin
Pete C. - 19 Apr 2006 20:19 GMT
> ***********************quote**************
> Pressure is vital because a properly inflated tire is a safer, more
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Kevin

Another thing to note, is that if the oxygen leaks out of the tire
faster than the nitrogen, the tire will act like a crude molecular sieve
of sorts. You keep filling the tire with air at some 78% nitrogen, the
21% oxygen leaks out leaving the nitrogen, you top up with air, etc. and
you end up with like 99% nitrogen after a while.

Pete C.
~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:49 GMT
>A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed
>air would solve most of the problem.

What does it sulfur?  Ammonia novice at this, so
I can only take a gas at it.

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Scott Dorsey - 20 Apr 2006 15:38 GMT
>>A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed
>>air would solve most of the problem.
>
>What does it sulfur?  Ammonia novice at this, so
>I can only take a gas at it.

I think you should take these bad puns and barium.
--scott
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~^Johnny^~ - 24 Apr 2006 01:57 GMT
>>>A simple air dryer filter used on the compressed
>>>air would solve most of the problem.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I think you should take these bad puns and barium.

I feel so lead, my shellfish in two,  Hish, son!.  

So you wanna x-ray deep into my bowels?
I do have a new technique on the drawing board,
but it's still intestine stage.

It's alimentary,  my friend.

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~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:28 GMT
>Advocates say filling your tires with the gas instead of air will help
>keep correct pressure and better gas mileage.

Heh heh...

Circa 1970,  we did just that... filled the tires with gas(oline)
vapor.  WE used those "Engineair" kits,  which screwed into a spark
plug hole,  and pumped the  tire full of carbureted mix as the engine
idled.  

I believe they have been outlawed in most states,  now.
Then again,  maybe not:
<http://www.aerostich.com/product.php?productid=16780&cat=266&page=2>

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Hugo Schmeisser - 18 Apr 2006 07:27 GMT
> > good idea or waste of time?
>
> Waste of time - you're already running something in the neighborhood
> of a 75% nitrogen mix in your tires.

78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases.

> > what's the science behind it?
>
> There is none - Unless the science of "separating suckers from their
> money" counts.

Apparently pure nitrogen is used by some truck fleets. The absence of
oxygen means absence of moisture, and better control of inflation
pressures over operating temperature ranges. Some race cars use pure
nitrogen as well, for the same reasons.

I do question the cost/benefit ratio of nitrogen in ordinary passenger
cars, though. Doesn't seem worth it to me when I can get regular air
for free with a bicycle pump. I just use an ordinary bicycle pump to
add a few pounds here and there as needed.
Scott Dorsey - 18 Apr 2006 13:51 GMT
>78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases.

I bet a nickel it's a good bit more than 1% in Los Angeles.
--scott

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Hugo Schmeisser - 18 Apr 2006 19:45 GMT
> > 78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases.
>
> I bet a nickel it's a good bit more than 1% in Los Angeles.

:)

Seriously, I was in Los Angeles this past summer. To the nose and eyes,
your air is cleaner than that of Toronto, a much smaller city, and one
that does not labour under a thermal inversion. I was impressed,
actually. Perhaps it's due to a lack of diesel-powered city buses.
* - 18 Apr 2006 20:26 GMT
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article
<e22nbl$lto$1@panix2.panix.com>...

> >78%, actually. And 21% oxygen, 1% other gases.
>
> I bet a nickel it's a good bit more than 1% in Los Angeles.
> --scott

One thing they measure in Los Angeles air that they don't measure anywhere
else is the percentage of *solids!*
John S. - 18 Apr 2006 13:48 GMT
> good idea or waste of time?
>
> what's the science behind it?
>
> bob

What are the claimed benefits.

It won't improve milage, extend tire life or improve the ride, but it
will separate you from some $$.
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Apr 2006 16:29 GMT
"John S." <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote in message
> What are the claimed benefits.

Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air
lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire.  I have
my doubts about it..  Have never seen definitive tests one way or the
other.

The ozone cracking, etc, is normally more noticeable on the outside
of the tire, isn't it?

It certainly doesn't hurt anything to use nitrogen, just like it doesn't
hurt to use deionized water in your coolant system.
John S. - 18 Apr 2006 18:26 GMT
> "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote in message
> > What are the claimed benefits.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> my doubts about it..  Have never seen definitive tests one way or the
> other.

Unless one was considering keeping the tire mounted for 30 years on the
same rim I don't think that is an issue.

> The ozone cracking, etc, is normally more noticeable on the outside
> of the tire, isn't it?

Yup, that's what I would think too.

> It certainly doesn't hurt anything to use nitrogen, just like it doesn't
> hurt to use deionized water in your coolant system.

It won't hurt, and as long as it is free and easy to use then sure, why
not use nitrogen.

I suspect that the only tire deterioration of any consequence is the
result of tread-to-road contact. The rest of this supposed problem is
the result of guys looking for some new automotive problem to worry
about and a few entrepreneurs who are willing to provide an imaginary
solution.
clifto - 18 Apr 2006 21:47 GMT
> Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air
> lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire.  I have
> my doubts about it..

I figure there's so much oxygen inside the tire. If it's combining
with some element of the tires, pretty soon all the oxygen will be
used up in the process of damaging the tire. However, the outside
of the tire is constantly exposed to fresh air with 21% unconsumed
oxygen, and therefore should deteriorate much, much faster than
the inside of the tire.

I've never seen oxygen damage on the outside of any tire, I've never
seen any oxygen damage on the inside of old tires removed from cars,
and I've never ever heard of an oxygen failure of a tire.

Whatever else might be in the air you put in a tire, it's going to
be consumed in the process of combining with the tire to cause
damage; and the outside of the tire will be constantly exposed to
much, much more of the same.

Now, as to whether there's any advantage regarding inflation
pressure change from cold to hot, deponent further says not.

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All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
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HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Apr 2006 21:13 GMT
> > Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air
> > lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with some element of the tires, pretty soon all the oxygen will be
> used up in the process of damaging the tire.

In particular, they speak of ozone damage.  Ozone is a triatomic form of
oxygen, and is considerably more reactive than diatomic oxygen.  It usually
forms when oxygen is subjected to electrical discharge, such as near high
voltage transformers, lightning, electrostatic sources, etc.  There are also
chemical sources.

I did not mean to directly relate the oxygen to the damage. It is indirectly
related through the formation of ozone and the further reaction of the
ozone.
clifto - 21 Apr 2006 00:14 GMT
> "clifto" <clifto@gmail.com> wrote...
>> > Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> related through the formation of ozone and the further reaction of the
> ozone.

Okay, but you still don't have nearly as much ozone generated
inside a tire as you do outside, where there are sunlight,
ultraviolet light and electrical arc discharges. So even if
there's significant ozone generation inside a tire, the outside
still stands to take the most damage, the inside comparatively
little.

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All relevant people are pertinent.
All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
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Don Stauffer - 21 Apr 2006 14:15 GMT
> In particular, they speak of ozone damage.  Ozone is a triatomic form of
> oxygen, and is considerably more reactive than diatomic oxygen.  It usually
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> related through the formation of ozone and the further reaction of the
> ozone.

UV radiation also creates ozone from O2.  But how much UV radiation or
lightning goes on inside a tire?
Dave Gower - 19 Apr 2006 05:59 GMT
> Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air
> lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire.  I have
> my doubts about it..  Have never seen definitive tests one way or the
> other.

I've seen those claims too. Even if they're right, I've never had a tire
"decompose" in my almost 5 decades of driving. They either wear out or get
damaged long before this happens. So I agree that its probably a gimmick.
Don Stauffer - 19 Apr 2006 14:54 GMT
>>Some have claimed that the oxygen and moisture in compressed air
>>lead to the decomposition of the elastomer used in the tire.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "decompose" in my almost 5 decades of driving. They either wear out or get
> damaged long before this happens. So I agree that its probably a gimmick.

I don't know about decomposition, but moisture in air greatly affects
its pressure change with temperature.  That is why racing tires are
frequently filled with nitrogen or special "dried" air.  With an unknown
moisture content one has no good idea of what the pressure will get to
when the tires heat up on track.

On passenger cars, the humid air does create a greater temperature
change than predicted by simple gas equations.  However, the fact that
you need to check pressure more often when temps change doesn't seem
worth the expense of a dried gas to me.

Bogus is argument that nitrogen molecules are larger and therefore leak
out more slowly than air.  Air is 80 percent nitrogen already, and
oxygen, the other major constituent, is very similar in size and weight
to nitrogen.
~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:44 GMT
> Air is 80 percent nitrogen already, and
>oxygen, the other major constituent, is very similar in size and weight
>to nitrogen.

Don't be a peon;  use neon or Freon,  which we all agree on!

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clifto - 20 Apr 2006 20:04 GMT
> Don't be a peon;  use neon or Freon,  which we all agree on!

You argon a get yours for punning. Perhaps the pun police will conduct
a radon your premises. You'll be booed if you're xenon the streets.

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All rude people are impertinent.
Therefore, no rude people are relevant.
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~^Johnny^~ - 24 Apr 2006 02:06 GMT
>> Don't be a peon;  use neon or Freon,  which we all agree on!
>
>You argon a get yours for punning. Perhaps the pun police will conduct
>a radon your premises. You'll be booed if you're xenon the streets.

It's a joint effort,  from the very grass roots.  
Your re-ply was covalent,  and inert me.
We'd like to bond with you, but just in case, we argon.

Dhoti say he's Sari?  May bee,  but he still gets a dressing down.
That's gotta Sting.  Police forgive me.

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TE Cheah - 22 Apr 2006 14:02 GMT
| It certainly doesn't hurt anything to use nitrogen
I'm amazed how many of you in USA have not tried *nitrogen, when
your petrol costs 1½x of prices in msia, must be due to your shops'
higher charges from costlier labour.

In 11-04, 1 tyre shop here was confident that users would like the
benefits, & offered for 4 days free *.  I was amazed by their confidence
so took their offer : got * pumped into 4 Michelin "green" tyres ( 205
& 195/65R15 @2.3kg/cm² ) with the lowest rolling resistance (rr) I
know & already aligned to parallel ( no toe-in / out ).
I think my tyres' rr dropped by 3-5% ( based on my accord's minimum
tow force needed ), but tyres with very low aspect ratio ( little air / gas
) may feel nothing.  My 6½" alloy wheels are now much cooler, &
receive less shock ( over bumps ) than before.  Steering is lighter too. I
got the same results from 2 more cars' 70 series tyres. Tyres need not
be pumped as often as before, i.e. saves time : my 4 Michelins' * need
not be added, for 14 months !
I think these 5 benefits come from *'s lower molecular friction than air.
Disadvantages are [i] I must not use a pressure gauge [ii] driving over
bumps, or hitting kerbs, will need more care, to avoid losing *.
* - 22 Apr 2006 16:36 GMT
>  I
> know & already aligned to parallel ( no toe-in / out ).

If you think "0" static toe equals "0" dynamic toe, then you do not
understand front-end alignment.

The fractions of an inch/millimeter set at static toe compensates for the
stackup of thousandths of an inch tolerance in each steering component that
allows wheels to move towards toe-out on RWD and toe-in on FWD under
rolling conditions.

"0" static toe results in toe-out on RWD and toe-in on FWD when driving
down the road (dynamic toe).
TE Cheah - 23 Apr 2006 04:27 GMT
| "0" static toe results in ... toe-in on FWD when driving
Then honda should prescribe static toe-out for my accord.

rr was higher ( @ both low & high speed ) when toe-in was 3mm (
as prescribed by honda ), whatever theory you read.   I don't believe
a fixed toe-in can be best for correction, @ any road speed.

Mysterios have little credibility, to me : I often ignore their posts.
* - 23 Apr 2006 14:40 GMT
> | "0" static toe results in ... toe-in on FWD when driving
> Then honda should prescribe static toe-out for my accord.

Toe-out is standard recommendation for FWD cars. If you understood FEA, you
would realize that Honda's specification is for toe-out..


~^Johnny^~ - 19 Apr 2006 01:57 GMT
>It won't improve milage, extend tire life or improve the ride, but it
>will separate you from some $$.

So will freon and propane.

Those cans of "Fix-A-Flat" are an example...

I hate that stuff.  Better to pump the tire my hand,
if it's a slow leak,  and drive to the nearest repair shop.

There,  they have patches and compressed AIR.  Works fine...

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~^Johnny^~ - 19 Apr 2006 02:07 GMT
>It won't improve milage, extend tire life or improve the ride, but it
>will separate you from some $$.

Inflation has an impact on this,  for sure.

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Scott Dorsey - 18 Apr 2006 13:48 GMT
>good idea or waste of time?

Of course it's a good idea.  I always fill my tires with a mixture of about
80% nitrogen.

>what's the science behind it?

It holds the tires and keeps them from getting flat, while costing much
less than argon or neon mixes, and being less explosive than butane or propane.
--scott
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bob - 18 Apr 2006 23:25 GMT
>>good idea or waste of time?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> less than argon or neon mixes, and being less explosive than butane or
> propane.

thank you scott..do you work at comedy central on wknds?

bob
fweddybear - 19 Apr 2006 00:08 GMT
>>>good idea or waste of time?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> bob

   Its actually 6 of one, half dozen of another..... the only advantage I
see with using nitrogen is that it will keep your tires up for a longer
period of time and I believe the only reason for that is because it has
something to do with density of nitrogen as opposed to oxygen.  It takes
longer to leak out (nitrogen).  Another advantage is on racetracks.....but
unless you use the road as one, there is no advantage there.  Nitrogen will
also not compress as quickly... it is a bit more stable than oxygen...

anything I missed?

Fwed
~^Johnny^~ - 19 Apr 2006 02:04 GMT
>>>good idea or waste of time?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>thank you scott..do you work at comedy central on wknds?

I have a proprietary blend of ozone, methyl bromide,  sulfur trioxode,
and water vapor.

I discovered it when I was a Weblo, retiring.
It made such a boom in the trade,  it was suppressed,
just like the Pogue carburetor.  

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ray - 19 Apr 2006 03:09 GMT
> good idea or waste of time?
>
> what's the science behind it?
>
> bob

If you're in NASCAR Nextel Cup or F1 and you're measuring your air
pressure to the nearest 1/4 pound and you want repeatability, you use
nitrogen because there's no water vapour in there to introduce a random
variable.

Otherwise you're just a sucker if you paid for this service...
especially if you don't remember the last time you checked your tire
pressure.

Ray
Steve W. - 19 Apr 2006 04:34 GMT
> good idea or waste of time?
>
> what's the science behind it?
>
> bob

Waste of time for the typical passenger car.

Science is that normal atmospheric air contains a mix of gases and water
vapor. It is unpredictable in it's expansion rate with regard to
temperature variations. Pure nitrogen on the other hand has a set
expansion rate over temperature ranges. It is also a component gas of
air that is not a problem if it gets vented (tire blowout or pressure
adjustments), versus other gases that can be a problem. It is also
cheaper than many other gases.

This is important in a race vehicle because a tire is part of the spring
rate on the car and is one that is easily altered by raising/lowering
the pressure in 1/4 - 1/2 pound increments as needed.  It is also used
to power many of the pit guns you see used. (high speed  from high
pressure)

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Norm De Plume - 19 Apr 2006 07:31 GMT
> good idea or waste of time?

Bad idea.  What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on
trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water
to fake your death so they'll stop hunting you?  How are you going
breathe air from your tires when they're filled with pure nitrogen?
This is why I put only 100% oxygen in my front tires (too dangerous for
the rears and spare - gas tank).

> what's the science behind it?

Very sound Creation science, supplemented with the discoveries of L.
Ron Hubbard.
Scott Dorsey - 19 Apr 2006 15:37 GMT
>Bad idea.  What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on
>trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water
>to fake your death so they'll stop hunting you?  How are you going
>breathe air from your tires when they're filled with pure nitrogen?
>This is why I put only 100% oxygen in my front tires (too dangerous for
>the rears and spare - gas tank).

This is foolish.  You should be using helium in your tires.  Because
helium is ligher than air, it will actually reduce the effective weight
of your car without changing the mass.  Of course, you have to top the
tires off every hour because the gas diffuses through the rubber, but
that's just the price you pay to be part of the leading edge of technology.
--scott

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John S. - 19 Apr 2006 15:42 GMT
> >Bad idea.  What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on
> >trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that's just the price you pay to be part of the leading edge of technology.
> --scott

And you will have to adjust the mix of helium as you change altitude.
That car could just go floating off into the sunset!!!
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 21 Apr 2006 02:34 GMT
> > >Bad idea.  What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on
> > >trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> And you will have to adjust the mix of helium as you change altitude.
> That car could just go floating off into the sunset!!!

No way! Cars are too heavy to float. They'll just flip over, wheels
pointing up.

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~^Johnny^~ - 20 Apr 2006 02:32 GMT
>You should be using helium in your tires.  Because
>helium is ligher than air, it will actually reduce the effective weight
>of your car without changing the mass.

Helium filled boots are your best bet.
You'll save on fuel,  and on speeding tickets!

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 -john
           wide-open at throttle dot info

ray - 20 Apr 2006 03:37 GMT
>>Bad idea.  What if you're being chased by Homeland Security on
>>trumped-up charges and have to have to plunge your car into the water
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> that's just the price you pay to be part of the leading edge of technology.
> --scott

But you'll lose traction.  So a RWD car should have helium in the front
and co2 or xenon or radon in the back then? ;)
HLS@nospam.nix - 20 Apr 2006 13:16 GMT
If there are any of you that are as old as I am, let's test your memory.

Which service station chain had a marketing ploy in which they claimed
to use Pink Air to fill your tires?
GreyGoose006 - 20 Apr 2006 21:55 GMT
Nitrogen also has a lower rate of expansion than oxygen.   the benefit
is that when you inflate your tires to 35 p.s.i to go racing, the
pressure wont change as much when the tires eat up.  although since the
air we normally put in is 79% Nirtogen anyway, it dosent really matter
that much for u and me.

BTW, ive heard of some racing teams filling their tires w/ helium to
lighten them by 6-8 ounces.  i guess every little bit helps eh...

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Don Stauffer - 21 Apr 2006 14:17 GMT
> Nitrogen also has a lower rate of expansion than oxygen.   the benefit
> is that when you inflate your tires to 35 p.s.i to go racing, the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> BTW, ive heard of some racing teams filling their tires w/ helium to
> lighten them by 6-8 ounces.  i guess every little bit helps eh...

I was under the impression they both were fairly close to gas law, ie
change proportional to temp in degrees R.  Air, on average, N, and O are
pretty much the same as far as dP/dT.  Water vapor is something else.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 21 Apr 2006 02:41 GMT
just curious - why so much activity on the subject, does anyone see an
advantage to using it in personal cars, and if so - what is it?

mho
vƒe
John S. - 21 Apr 2006 14:58 GMT
> just curious - why so much activity on the subject, does anyone see an
> advantage to using it in personal cars, and if so - what is it?

I think the answer to your question is in the many previous posts.
 
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