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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / April 2006Leaky A/C
87 Lebaron. Obvious freon blowout under hood but leak not detectable as oily freon is all over the hoses, compressor, hood, etc. Other than fully evacuating and recharging the system including tracer dye to detect the leak, is there a better way to find the leak without spending $200? Can one just put compressed air in the freon inlet and search for a leak? I am sure it needs a part(s). Could be hose or compressor seal? I don't want to pay $200 to find the leak and still have to replace hose or compressor and recharge the freon for anothr $200 plus? Any ideas? Email me above and/or post. Thanks in advance. > 87 Lebaron. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thanks in advance. You might want to wipe off the hoses best you can..... then maybe buy a can of refrigerant and refill with just one can... then watch where it leaks out. You will probably see what you see now, but you will be able to catch it before it goes all over the place. chances are it is coming from an old o-ring that needs replacing, or one of the connectors need tightening... good luck.. Fwed > > 87 Lebaron. > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > out. You will probably see what you see now, but you will be able to catch > it before it goes all over the place. Yes, working on this one. I was going to steam clean but likely not necessary. I can only see one fitting for freon. Is there more inlet/outlet fittings? >chances are it is coming from an old > o-ring that needs replacing, or one of the connectors need tightening... A cheap fix like would be best for my wallet. But I know there are other things it could be like the compressor seal, pop off valve, hose, or even clogged condenser. > good luck.. > > Fwed Thanks. >> > 87 Lebaron. >> > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Thanks. There is a high side and a low side...... when you buy the refrigerant, you will need the hose too, and it only fits on the low side, so you can't screw things up. Just follow the directions.... its pretty easy to refill. This will work as a sort of temperary fix.... I did this myself to get me thru a summer. By the time the next summer rolled around, I started doing the same thing, but this time it ate cans like crazy. It actually got too expensive. I am not a tech on a/c service, and since I couldn't see where the leak was, I took it somewhere to be done. Turned out to be the condensing unit behind the dashboard. Its a bitch of a job as the whole dashboard had to come out to have it fixed. It cost me just over 900 bucks, but I wanted it done. In your case, it sounds like the leak is under the hood and probably an inexpensive fix if its coming from the hose fitting. Sounds like just an o-ring and a recharge. Fwed > >> > 87 Lebaron. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > you will need the hose too, and it only fits on the low side, so you can't > screw things up. Ok, but I have an r12 system so I gues I need some type of adpter too? >Just follow the directions.... its pretty easy to refill. > This will work as a sort of temperary fix.... I did this myself to get me > thru a summer. By the time the next summer rolled around, I started doing > the same thing, but this time it ate cans like crazy. It actually got too > expensive. Well, I'm in the desert until June so I need serious A/C. It'll be 100 degrees here in a couple weeeks. That's about 140degrees in a car. >I am not a tech on a/c service, and since I couldn't see where > the leak was, I took it somewhere to be done. Turned out to be the > condensing unit behind the dashboard. Its a bitch of a job as the whole > dashboard had to come out to have it fixed. It cost me just over 900 bucks, > but I wanted it done. Yes, I'm just trying to save a hundred or two by troubleshooting and changing aany parts needed before fully evacuating and charging the syst. > In your case, it sounds like the leak is under the hood and probably an > inexpensive fix if its coming from the hose fitting. Sounds like just an > o-ring and a recharge. > > Fwed One can only hope. Thanks. >Yes, I'm just trying to save a hundred or two by troubleshooting and >changing aany parts needed before fully evacuating and charging the >syst. Propane is fine for testing an R12 system (runs OK too)... try googling *R290 refrigerant*. You'll need to make up some sort of adaptor to get from a propane cylinder to the Schrader valve. Propane has a somewhat higher vapour pressure than R12 and you can normally get enough charge into the system (without running the engine) to get the a/c to operate after a fashion. With the engine stopped, charge until you reach cylinder pressure (you won't need a gauge). Preferably through the low side but it won't matter much either way. Use a soap solution for leak testing.  SignatureJohn H your situation probably needs the attention of a professional. rather than add compressed air - R-134 doesn't cost all that much, and there are commercial leak detectors available at a reasonable cost. R-134 under the right condition can replace freon-12 in a system. mho ve you definitly don't wan't to put compressed air into the system,since it contains the moisture that you want to remove by evacuating the system. i use a small amt of refrigerant plus some nitrogen for the leak check. i do three leak checks: soap bubbles, electronic leak detector, and vacuum hold test. the price isn't controlled by the difficulty of the job. almost all are pretty straight forward,and most mechanics(backyard and professional) can handle. the cost is in the tools, parts, and time if it is a more in depth like a rebuild. good luck your situation probably needs the attention of a professional. rather than add compressed air - R-134 doesn't cost all that much, and there are commercial leak detectors available at a reasonable cost. R-134 under the right condition can replace freon-12 in a system. mho vfe >tom&kel wrote: In email. >Kevin Mouton <kmouton3@cox.net> wrote: Do not use compressed air to leak check the >system. Moisture is bad for the >system and the air may cause residual refrigerant oil to become ignightable. Ok. >Use compressed nitrogen with trace dye or halon gas if using an electronic >detector. Is this what a reputable mechanic would do first? >Even a single can of 134a refrigerant (about 10 dollars) could be >used to check for a big leak. Ok. sounds easy. 87 has older freon spec. is 134a ok if it a an r12 freon spec? Is there only the one hose inlet? Do I need more than just the can? Will a can have connections to inlet? Just twist it to the fitting while the a/c is running? I know there is a high side and lowside hose. I supose they are marked? >Your description sounds like the pop off vale on the compressor may have >released excessive pressure. I don't know where that valve is. The oil from the system sprayed on the hoses but looked like it might have shot straight up on the hood then got on the belt. >In that case no leak may be found, but you need >to find the cause of the build up of head pressure. Ok. >That is usually due to >lack of air flow through the condenser such as when the fan does not >operate properly. Ok. Which fan? The condenser is in front with radiator not the part in the car that blows the cold right? Thanks for the help. I'll check for can of freon and inlet(s). ----- Original Message ----- From: Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Leaky A/C > 87 Lebaron. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thanks in advance. >>87 Lebaron. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >>Thanks in advance. My advice is that unless you FULLY understand how refrigeration systems work and are prepared to tackle the needed modifications to convert to R-134a as well as to find/repair the failed component, you'd be WAY better off financially just taking it to a reputable A/C shop. Its pretty easy to flush away $200+ trying "shotgun" parts swaps and half-assed repairs on AC systems and STILL have hot air blowing at you. If you're serious about learning how to do it right, go to the forums at www.aircondition.com, start reading, study hard, and don't cut corners. A failed R-12 system being converted to R-134a needs to be flushed, filled with the correct oil, have a new drier installed, and evacuated with a good HARD vacuum for several hours at a minimum, in addition to any failed parts that need to be replaced. > >>87 Lebaron. > >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > R-134a as well as to find/repair the failed component, you'd be WAY > better off financially just taking it to a reputable A/C shop. "Reputable" is easier said than done. I get that I could have multiple issues here including the difficulty because of the r12 system. I hadn't really considered changing over. It will depend on cost of repair t begin with then possible modification. >Its > pretty easy to flush away $200+ trying "shotgun" parts swaps and > half-assed repairs on AC systems and STILL have hot air blowing at you. Yes, but I'm just exploring the easier stuff to save 70-85$ / hour. I am considering a can of R-134a with fitting adapter to see if I can find the leak. What will this hurt if there is no leak and it was the popoff valve? I would still need the reason the valve popped or I find a leak and replace the part. I hope it is not a bad compressor seal. If find a leak and replace any parts I'm saving about 2 hundred bucks for starters. If there is no fan/condenser problems all that would need to be done is to evac the system and charge with R12. I will need to investigate the difference in costs OF r12 vs changing the system to an R-134a freon but all this is moot until I find the leak and cause. > If you're serious about learning how to do it right, go to the forums at > www.aircondition.com, start reading, study hard, and don't cut corners. Thanks. Right. I'm not trying to cut corners because I need it to work as reliably as possible. I'm just doing what I can to save a few hundred bucks. If the compressor is bad a mechanic will rape me. > A failed R-12 system being converted to R-134a needs to be flushed, > filled with the correct oil, have a new drier installed, and evacuated > with a good HARD vacuum for several hours at a minimum, in addition to > any failed parts that need to be replaced. I understand. The question is one cost vs the other after I find the original failure. Thanks again. ******Reply posted at the bottom******* > > >>87 Lebaron. > > >> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > failure. > Thanks again. I understand your attempt to save some money by doing what you can. Here's how it goes. You spend maybe 30 bucks for a service port adapter, a can of 134a with a refill hose. You add the Freon through the low side port and instantly hear it hissing out of the busted hose or blown fitting seal. Good. Now you can replace the hose or whatever part is leaking yourself for whatever the parts cost. Because you saw all that oil under the hood, it is most likely a hose or fitting.. It might be the pop off valve on the compressor that released because the high side pressure got to hi. In that case you will not hear any leaks when you add Freon. You will then have to find out why the pressure got too high. There are several things that could cause this. Not enough air flow through the condenser (dirty fins, plastic garbage from the road, cooling fan inoperative) or even a restriction somewhere in the refrigerant system. For instance, the dryer desiccant bag can rupture and clog the expansion valve witch would block the flow of refrigerant. That would cause the high side pressure to increase above the pop off valve setting. Unfortunately you will probably not be able to diagnose this yourself. If you find a leaking component go ahead and replace it and the dryer (always replace the dryer) yourself. Then have a shop evacuated and recharge the system. At that time you can decide weather or not to convert to 134a. If you do, the only difference will be the type of refrigerant and oil the shop puts back in. If you decide to go back with r12, it will be expensive. Only a licensed tech can purchase r12 and it cost up to 200 dollars to refill a system with it. You can expect the shop to refuse any warranty on the job because you diagnosed and repaired the system yourself. They can't be responsible if something goes wrong, and plenty could go wrong. There isn't enough time or space here to go into all the details of complete A/C repairs. I spend about five weeks with my students getting them to understand all the intricacies of A/C work. If all goes well and you replace a busted hose, dryer, and service port adapters, then have a shop evacuate and recharge with 134a, you can expect to spend as much as a couple of hundred on the parts and another couple of hundred on the shops labor. Probably not much less than an honest shop would charge to diagnose and repair the same scenario, but then you would have a warranty. Of course most shops have a great tendency to overkill on A/C work so that they don't take any chances of having to eat a come back repair. Most likely, if you just bring it in to a shop and say "fix it" you will wind up with a 12 to 15 hundred dollar repair bill. Good luck SignatureKevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green > ******Reply posted at the bottom******* > [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > garbage from the road, cooling fan inoperative) or even a restriction > somewhere in the refrigerant system. Yes, this is where it get's complicted. >For instance, the dryer desiccant bag > can rupture and clog the expansion valve witch would block the flow of > refrigerant. That would cause the high side pressure to increase above the > pop off valve setting. Unfortunately you will probably not be able to > diagnose this yourself. Right. But will anyone else be able to without fully charging the system? >If you find a leaking component go ahead and replace > it and the dryer (always replace the dryer) yourself. Ok. >Then have a shop > evacuated and recharge the system. At that time you can decide weather or > not to convert to 134a. If you do, the only difference will be the type of > refrigerant and oil the shop puts back in. If you decide to go back with > r12, it will be expensive. Only a licensed tech can purchase r12 and it cost > up to 200 dollars to refill a system with it. Yes. I have to discuss this option with whatever technician I wind up with. > You can expect the shop to refuse any warranty on the job because you > diagnosed and repaired the system yourself. They can't be responsible if > something goes wrong, and plenty could go wrong. Yup. >There isn't enough time or > space here to go into all the details of complete A/C repairs. I spend about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can expect to spend as much as a couple of hundred on the parts and another > couple of hundred on the shops labor. If that is all it is I can be happy. This chance get's remote when the dealer quotes 165$ for one hose though. >Probably not much less than an honest > shop would charge to diagnose and repair the same scenario, but then you > would have a warranty. Yes. >Of course most shops have a great tendency to > overkill on A/C work so that they don't take any chances of having to eat a > come back repair. Most likely, if you just bring it in to a shop and say > "fix it" you will wind up with a 12 to 15 hundred dollar repair bill. That is why I am not too trusting. I've been working on my own cars for 35 years. I just never had to do any a/c work. I found an a/c tech that says he will leak test it for free. I then can determine what to do from there after I talk to him about these other possible issues.. > Good luck Thank you. > -- > Kevin Mouton > Automotive Technology Instructor > "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" > Red Green > Yes, but I'm just exploring the easier stuff to save 70-85$ / hour. > I am considering a can of R-134a with fitting adapter to see if I can > find the leak. > What will this hurt if there is no leak and it was the popoff valve? It would render the entire charge contaminated and un-recoverable because you would have mixed refrigrerants without properly evacuating and flushing the system first. IOW, its illegal. > > Yes, but I'm just exploring the easier stuff to save 70-85$ / hour. > > I am considering a can of R-134a with fitting adapter to see if I can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because you would have mixed refrigrerants without properly evacuating > and flushing the system first. IOW, its illegal. Only illegal for licensed technicians (last time I checked) and mixed refrigerants are recoverable. SignatureKevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green |
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