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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2006E85 Conversion
What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and one that will run on E85? It would seem that the ethanol compatibility issues (rubber seals, etc.) have been solved in a vehicle that can run on E10. So, is it just a matter of swapping chips in the EFI controller?  SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Just say 'No' to Windows. -- Department of Defenestration. > What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and > one that will run on E85? > > It would seem that the ethanol compatibility issues (rubber seals, etc.) > have been solved in a vehicle that can run on E10. So, is it just a > matter of swapping chips in the EFI controller? You would probably need higher flow injectors as well, as it takes a lot more E85 per unit air... nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > > What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and > > one that will run on E85? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Generaly you need almost twice the volume of ethanol as gasoline. So you would need an injector about 1.8 time your original injectors flow. Also compatibility issues at 10% are not the same as 85%. Stan Stan > > > What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and > > > one that will run on E85? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > would need an injector about 1.8 time your original injectors flow. Also > compatibility issues at 10% are not the same as 85%. OK. Lets restate the question. How far can one push the mixture with no refits (assuming the system can handle an E10 mix)? Or with a new chip in the EFI controller? Also, how far can one go in a 'Flex Fuel' engine? This assumes that one might want to vary the mix from straight gasoline up to that maximum mixture from tank to tank? SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ If the first attempt at making a drawing board had been a failure, what would they go back to? >>>> What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and >>>> one that will run on E85? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > might want to vary the mix from straight gasoline up to that maximum > mixture from tank to tank? I've looked into this before and reading through different forums most cars can handle 30-50% E85 just fine. Some cars can even do 100%. The easiest way to modify a FI car to run E85 is to mount an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, preferable one with a pressure gauge. That way you can increase the fuel pressure, by hand, 35-40% allowing 100% E85. Another way is to reprogram the ECU, however that's really only an option on older cars. I've considered this on my '92 BMW 535, which uses Motronic 1.3, by replacing the stock EPROM with a larger FLASH device with two, or more, firmware programs. That way I can use either fuel and just switch to the appropriate firmware using a switch on the dash. Ulf > Another way is to reprogram the ECU, however that's really only an > option on older cars. I've considered this on my '92 BMW 535, which uses > Motronic 1.3, by replacing the stock EPROM with a larger FLASH device > with two, or more, firmware programs. That way I can use either fuel and > just switch to the appropriate firmware using a switch on the dash. Why is this only an option for older cars? > > > > What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and > > > > one that will run on E85? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > might want to vary the mix from straight gasoline up to that maximum > mixture from tank to tank? The answer to your question, as you can probably guess, is "it depends." First of all, it varies from car to car how much "headroom" there is in the flow capacity of the injectors. If the injectors are near maxed out on gasoline, they won't work very well on E85. But if they are generously sized and operate at <50% duty cycle on E85 they might be just fine. The other issue is software. I'll be honest, I don't know if E85 vehicles just trim based on the O2 sensor or if they have some other way of determining what %age fuel they are being fed, but I would assume the latter. nate I saw a show yesterday that said there is an inexpensive sensor in the fuel tank that monitors the ethanol percentage in the GM vehicles in brazil. >> > > > What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine >> > > > and [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > nate > I saw a show yesterday that said there is an inexpensive sensor in the fuel > tank that monitors the ethanol percentage in the GM vehicles in brazil. I guess inexpensive may be relative, but the sensor is about $500 retail. JW check this kit out it should work it holds the injector open longer for a richer mixture. http://xcelplus.com/ it is also a penny stock of a sleeping giant company to be with this kit. check this out http://www.investorshub.com/boards/board.asp?board_id=4025 good luck > > I saw a show yesterday that said there is an inexpensive sensor in the fuel > > tank that monitors the ethanol percentage in the GM vehicles in brazil. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > JW > > > > What's the difference between an E10 (10% ethanol) cabable engine and > > > > one that will run on E85? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > -- > Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com Ethanol vehicles are called Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV) due to their ability to run on Ethanol (E85), gasoline or any combination of the two fuels. http://www.ford.com/en/vehicles/specialtyVehicles/environmental/ethanol.htm Stan > Generaly you need almost twice the volume of ethanol as gasoline. So you > would need an injector about 1.8 time your original injectors flow. I don't think it's quite 1.8 times. I think it's closer to 25% or 30% more. It seems the injector limitation would only come into play if you're trying to provide lots of power with e85 instead of gas? The flow rate for gas when you're "pedal to the floor" at 5000+ RPM (which your car is designed to handle) is certainly a lot more than the flow rate for e85 on a highway or accelerating from a stop sign at 2500RPM. Dave |
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