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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2006

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Fuel Pump Timer? Pump Location?

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Nehmo - 26 Apr 2006 14:43 GMT
I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126"
wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions,
and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so.

Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it?

If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's
the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank?

How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that
are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few
inches, have anything to do with the pump?

[1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or
straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for
flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to
get the correct pump.
--
         (||) Nehmo (||)
Telstar Electronics - 26 Apr 2006 18:51 GMT
Here's my opinions:

Fuel pump timing... not sure what you mean by this. If your talking
about the time the fuel pump engages when you turn the key... with the
engine not running... then the answer is the computer is handling that.

I think the main reason for having the pump in the tank... cost.

As for different pumps for basically the same vehicle. The only reason
I could think of is that car manufacturers are always making revisions
to parts... attempting to improve them. The different pump in this case
may be an improved version of a previous pump. Remeber that the
improved version may or may not be backward compatible with previous
versions due to mounting bolts...etc. This is one of the major reasons
that application data is so vast at auto stores.

www.telstar-electronics.com
Nehmo - 26 Apr 2006 20:34 GMT
"timer" not "timing". Actually I asked in a previous thread
http://snipurl.com/ppj3, but I didn't get an answer yet. If the engine
is dies, does the fuel pump stop after a period? If it does, how long
is this period, and does it begin again the next time the ignition
switch is put in the run position?
Signature

         (||) Nehmo (||)

Telstar Electronics - 26 Apr 2006 21:42 GMT
My answer is the same... when the engine is not running... the computer
is the device that runs the pump for a given time limit.

www.telstar-electronics.com

> "timer" not "timing". Actually I asked in a previous thread
> http://snipurl.com/ppj3, but I didn't get an answer yet. If the engine
> is dies, does the fuel pump stop after a period? If it does, how long
> is this period, and does it begin again the next time the ignition
> switch is put in the run position?
fiveiron@webtv.net - 05 May 2006 00:54 GMT
doesn't the fuel pump "run"  according to need, like an ac thermostat,
if there is "no call" for fuel, it doesn't run??

mho
vƒe
aarcuda69062 - 05 May 2006 01:07 GMT
> doesn't the fuel pump "run"  according to need, like an ac thermostat,
> if there is "no call" for fuel, it doesn't run??
>
> mho
> vƒe

No.
Mike Romain - 26 Apr 2006 22:24 GMT
The pump need engine input to the computer that says the engine is
running, pump away.  Otherwise it times out.

Turn your key from off to run and you will hear the pump start up.  It
then will shut off.  That is how long it takes the computer to time out.

As far as the rest goes, they wanted to make it very complicated and
difficult to replace the fuel pumps solely with the purpose to make the
mechanics that fix them money.

The old external electric and mechanical pumps were too easy for the
average joe to get, get at and fix.

Total planned obsolescence at it's finest.

The new pumps are cooled by the fuel coming back the return line going
into a jacket around them so they can make cheaper pumps and more
complicated seeming systems to 'snow job' the average consumer some
more.

The first generations of external pumps even had brushes you could
replace....

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126"
> wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
>           (||) Nehmo (||)
fiveiron@webtv.net - 27 Apr 2006 02:22 GMT
aside question,

not to interrupt the poster's original question, but I had to have a
fuel pump installed on a '93 6 cyl. 3.3 chrysler t-c minivan - twice.
600 bucks a pop.

and, another engine same kind, same year model, has never had any fuel
pump problems - why? just curious.

what can cause an electric fuel pump in the gas tank to fail?

mho
vƒe

>double dog dare you, sound familiar?

>to reduce your driving by  -  10%.
Kevin - 27 Apr 2006 09:56 GMT
aside question,

not to interrupt the poster's original question, but I had to have a
fuel pump installed on a '93 6 cyl. 3.3 chrysler t-c minivan - twice.
600 bucks a pop.

and, another engine same kind, same year model, has never had any fuel
pump problems - why? just curious.

what can cause an electric fuel pump in the gas tank to fail?

mho
vfe

>double dog dare you, sound familiar?

>to reduce your driving by - 10%.

Other than contamination there is the added heat of excessive current when
the pump has to work against a partially clogged fuel filter. Constant
strain equals early failure.

Signature

Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green

fiveiron@webtv.net - 06 May 2006 19:17 GMT
>Other than contamination there is the >added heat of excessive current
when >the pump has to work against a partially >clogged fuel filter.
>Constant strain equals early failure.
====
10-4, I buy that, but that didn't seem to be the case - either time.
thanks for your comment, I'll watch it.

mho
vƒe
cselby@mts.net - 26 Apr 2006 23:09 GMT
>Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it?

Fuel pumps are normally controlled through a relay and few seconds
'cycle' .   With the key on, the pump is engaged.  If no engine
movement (not running, sometimes no oil pressure, sometimes high
engine temp) is detected, the pump is disengaged in usually 2-3
seconds.   This 'timer is part of the Engine Management System
(computer).

>If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's
>the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank?

The pump in the tank may be a cost saver or not.   The advantage of a
submerged pump is it runs cooler and quieter with out suction leaks.
Replacing the pump may be less than an advantage.

>How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that
>are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few
>inches, have anything to do with the pump?

Interesting question and I have no answer, except for possible fuel
types and fuel pressure requirements for different engines.

>[1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or
>straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for
>flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to
>get the correct pump.
>--
It's interesting that Ford makes this distinction between gas and
alcohol fuels.   It may mean that they are ahead of the pack with
different fuel pump seals/impellers/designs to accommodate the
emerging fuels.  On the other hand why not supply  all Fords with this
capability as a cost saver.  Any difference in pump parts cost would
be more than made up in   -  less part numbers/ stockroom space, a
single production line, certainly less logistics in production and
distribution.   This one is difficult to understand because Ford
traditionaly  spends a nickel not a dime.   Or maybe someone is
stringing you a line.
aarcuda69062 - 27 Apr 2006 02:05 GMT
In article
<1146058999.719659.302050@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,

> I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126"
> wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions,
> and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so.
>
> Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it?

Yes.
A circuit in the PCM pulls the fuel pump rely control circuit to
ground, the PCM pulls the relay control circuit to ground if;
1) it senses the ignition circuit power up from off.
2) There is an RPM signal from the ICM.

> If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's
> the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank?

Fuel under pressure is less likely to vapor lock or foam.

> How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that
> are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few
> inches, have anything to do with the pump?

The 126" pump uses a steel top flange, the 118" pump uses a
plastic top flange, there are also differences in the plumbing.
Apparently there is a marked difference in the design of the fuel
tank/system between the two wheelbases.

> [1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or
> straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for
> flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to
> get the correct pump.

Indeed, the flex fuel pump would need certain material upgrades
if it is to survive the higher alcohol blend.
Nehmo - 27 Apr 2006 05:45 GMT
Well, thanks. That settles it.

--
         (||) Nehmo (||)
Kevin - 27 Apr 2006 09:52 GMT
> I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126"
> wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions,
> and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so.
>
> Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it?

The ECM (engine control Module) has circuitry that provides the ground for
the fuel pump relay. That circuitry contains a timer circuit that only lets
the pump run for a couple of seconds if there is no rpm signal recieved from
the engine.

> If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's
> the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank?

Less expensive to make a pump that does not need to provide lift ( suction
to pull gas from the tank).

> How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that
> are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few
> inches, have anything to do with the pump?

Fuel tank configuration is different on different wheel bases. Therefore
pump design varies.

> [1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or
> straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for
> flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to
> get the correct pump.

Different pump construction materials are needed to handle the corrosive
properties of extra methanol

Signature

Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green

> --
>           (||) Nehmo (||)
fiveiron@webtv.net - 06 May 2006 18:54 GMT
>Less expensive to make a pump that >does not need to provide lift (
suction to >pull gas from the tank).

YEAH,  you bet, until it comes time to replace it, then, the honeymoon
is over.:--)

AND, why does a tank pump run 150-200 bucks, plus a gouge for
installation, and a hang-on suck pump runs - quite a bit less?  

mho
vƒe
aarcuda69062 - 07 May 2006 00:35 GMT
<snip>
> and a hang-on suck pump runs - quite a bit less?  
>
> mho
> vƒe

How about an example of  "quite a bit less?"
fiveiron@webtv.net - 07 May 2006 02:42 GMT
>How about an example of "quite a bit >less?"
====
you surely aren't serious?

camshaft driven pumps use to cost 10-15 dollars when they were in vogue,
probably don't make them anymore, electric pumps 40-50 dollars - tank
pumps today run 150-200 bucks,

but you must take into consideration that the - pumps and present day
fuel systems act synergistically, new design, requiring a different
configuration all together.

mho
vƒe
aarcuda69062 - 07 May 2006 03:44 GMT
> >How about an example of "quite a bit >less?"
> ====
> you surely aren't serious?

No less serious than you are.

> camshaft driven pumps use to cost 10-15 dollars when they were in vogue,
> probably don't make them anymore, electric pumps 40-50 dollars - tank
> pumps today run 150-200 bucks,

Let's see...
Camshaft driven pump, 4-6 psi and delivers fuel in pulses
Electric fuel pump, 30-65 PSI and delivers continuous steady
pressure.  So, to steal a phrase from a slightly shortsighted
individual, "you surely aren't serious?"

> but you must take into consideration

You consider it in 2006, I was considering it 28+ years ago.

> that the - pumps and present day
> fuel systems act synergistically, new design, requiring a different
> configuration all together.

Yeah, EFI versus carburetors and all that mysterious stuff...
fiveiron@webtv.net - 06 May 2006 19:10 GMT
>The "flex-fuel" - meaning can take either >methanol+gasoline mix or
straight gas, >part is indicated by the 8th character of >the VIN - V
for flex-fuel - U for only >straight gas.
===
AND, when a vin number has neither an "U OR "V" for the 8th character,
but a "X" - what does the "X" indicate?

mho
vƒe
Jeff Strickland - 03 May 2006 01:34 GMT
>I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126"
> wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions,
> and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so.
>
> Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it?

Timer? There is no timer for the fuel pump.

> If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's
> the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank?

It's actually cooled by the fuel surrounding it. External pumps are cooled
by fuel going through, but internal pumps are cooled by fuel surrounding
them. Obviously there is a certain amount of cooling by the fuel passing
through, but the pump is submerged, and that's where the primary cooling is
accomplished.

> How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that
> are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few
> inches, have anything to do with the pump?

That's a good question. I'd guess that the tank is different on different
wheelbase trucks, but that's only a guess.
Nehmo - 05 May 2006 00:31 GMT
Jeff Strickland -
> It's actually cooled by the fuel surrounding it. External pumps are cooled
> by fuel going through, but internal pumps are cooled by fuel surrounding
> them. Obviously there is a certain amount of cooling by the fuel passing
> through, but the pump is submerged, and that's where the primary cooling is
> accomplished.

I saw a diagram, which someone in one of these NGs posted, of a similar
fuel pump. It appeared the motor was in the center of a cylinder and
fuel driven by an impeller went around the motor as it went up through
the cylinder. Thus the *motor* is submerged in the path of the fuel.
Also, the pump I have, which is a little smaller than a toilet paper
tube, comes with a rubber quarter-inch-thick sleeve to cushion the
mounting clamp (maybe it quiets the pump too). If the designers
expected liquid coming in contact with the exterior of the pump to
collect heat, they would have at least made holes in the sleeve.
--
        (||) Nehmo (||)
 
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