Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2006
Fuel Pump Timer? Pump Location?
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Nehmo - 26 Apr 2006 14:43 GMT I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126" wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions, and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so.
Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it?
If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank?
How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few inches, have anything to do with the pump?
[1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to get the correct pump. -- (||) Nehmo (||)
Telstar Electronics - 26 Apr 2006 18:51 GMT Here's my opinions:
Fuel pump timing... not sure what you mean by this. If your talking about the time the fuel pump engages when you turn the key... with the engine not running... then the answer is the computer is handling that.
I think the main reason for having the pump in the tank... cost.
As for different pumps for basically the same vehicle. The only reason I could think of is that car manufacturers are always making revisions to parts... attempting to improve them. The different pump in this case may be an improved version of a previous pump. Remeber that the improved version may or may not be backward compatible with previous versions due to mounting bolts...etc. This is one of the major reasons that application data is so vast at auto stores.
www.telstar-electronics.com
Nehmo - 26 Apr 2006 20:34 GMT "timer" not "timing". Actually I asked in a previous thread http://snipurl.com/ppj3, but I didn't get an answer yet. If the engine is dies, does the fuel pump stop after a period? If it does, how long is this period, and does it begin again the next time the ignition switch is put in the run position?
 Signature (||) Nehmo (||)
Telstar Electronics - 26 Apr 2006 21:42 GMT My answer is the same... when the engine is not running... the computer is the device that runs the pump for a given time limit.
www.telstar-electronics.com
> "timer" not "timing". Actually I asked in a previous thread > http://snipurl.com/ppj3, but I didn't get an answer yet. If the engine > is dies, does the fuel pump stop after a period? If it does, how long > is this period, and does it begin again the next time the ignition > switch is put in the run position? fiveiron@webtv.net - 05 May 2006 00:54 GMT doesn't the fuel pump "run" according to need, like an ac thermostat, if there is "no call" for fuel, it doesn't run??
mho ve
aarcuda69062 - 05 May 2006 01:07 GMT > doesn't the fuel pump "run" according to need, like an ac thermostat, > if there is "no call" for fuel, it doesn't run?? > > mho > vƒe No.
Mike Romain - 26 Apr 2006 22:24 GMT The pump need engine input to the computer that says the engine is running, pump away. Otherwise it times out.
Turn your key from off to run and you will hear the pump start up. It then will shut off. That is how long it takes the computer to time out.
As far as the rest goes, they wanted to make it very complicated and difficult to replace the fuel pumps solely with the purpose to make the mechanics that fix them money.
The old external electric and mechanical pumps were too easy for the average joe to get, get at and fix.
Total planned obsolescence at it's finest.
The new pumps are cooled by the fuel coming back the return line going into a jacket around them so they can make cheaper pumps and more complicated seeming systems to 'snow job' the average consumer some more.
The first generations of external pumps even had brushes you could replace....
Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
> I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126" > wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > (||) Nehmo (||) fiveiron@webtv.net - 27 Apr 2006 02:22 GMT aside question,
not to interrupt the poster's original question, but I had to have a fuel pump installed on a '93 6 cyl. 3.3 chrysler t-c minivan - twice. 600 bucks a pop.
and, another engine same kind, same year model, has never had any fuel pump problems - why? just curious.
what can cause an electric fuel pump in the gas tank to fail?
mho ve
>double dog dare you, sound familiar?
>to reduce your driving by - 10%. Kevin - 27 Apr 2006 09:56 GMT aside question,
not to interrupt the poster's original question, but I had to have a fuel pump installed on a '93 6 cyl. 3.3 chrysler t-c minivan - twice. 600 bucks a pop.
and, another engine same kind, same year model, has never had any fuel pump problems - why? just curious.
what can cause an electric fuel pump in the gas tank to fail?
mho vfe
>double dog dare you, sound familiar?
>to reduce your driving by - 10%. Other than contamination there is the added heat of excessive current when the pump has to work against a partially clogged fuel filter. Constant strain equals early failure.
 Signature Kevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green
fiveiron@webtv.net - 06 May 2006 19:17 GMT >Other than contamination there is the >added heat of excessive current when >the pump has to work against a partially >clogged fuel filter.
>Constant strain equals early failure. ==== 10-4, I buy that, but that didn't seem to be the case - either time. thanks for your comment, I'll watch it.
mho ve
cselby@mts.net - 26 Apr 2006 23:09 GMT >Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it? Fuel pumps are normally controlled through a relay and few seconds 'cycle' . With the key on, the pump is engaged. If no engine movement (not running, sometimes no oil pressure, sometimes high engine temp) is detected, the pump is disengaged in usually 2-3 seconds. This 'timer is part of the Engine Management System (computer).
>If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's >the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank? The pump in the tank may be a cost saver or not. The advantage of a submerged pump is it runs cooler and quieter with out suction leaks. Replacing the pump may be less than an advantage.
>How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that >are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few >inches, have anything to do with the pump? Interesting question and I have no answer, except for possible fuel types and fuel pressure requirements for different engines.
>[1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or >straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for >flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to >get the correct pump. >-- It's interesting that Ford makes this distinction between gas and alcohol fuels. It may mean that they are ahead of the pack with different fuel pump seals/impellers/designs to accommodate the emerging fuels. On the other hand why not supply all Fords with this capability as a cost saver. Any difference in pump parts cost would be more than made up in - less part numbers/ stockroom space, a single production line, certainly less logistics in production and distribution. This one is difficult to understand because Ford traditionaly spends a nickel not a dime. Or maybe someone is stringing you a line.
aarcuda69062 - 27 Apr 2006 02:05 GMT In article <1146058999.719659.302050@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126" > wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions, > and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so. > > Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it? Yes. A circuit in the PCM pulls the fuel pump rely control circuit to ground, the PCM pulls the relay control circuit to ground if; 1) it senses the ignition circuit power up from off. 2) There is an RPM signal from the ICM.
> If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's > the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank? Fuel under pressure is less likely to vapor lock or foam.
> How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that > are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few > inches, have anything to do with the pump? The 126" pump uses a steel top flange, the 118" pump uses a plastic top flange, there are also differences in the plumbing. Apparently there is a marked difference in the design of the fuel tank/system between the two wheelbases.
> [1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or > straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for > flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to > get the correct pump. Indeed, the flex fuel pump would need certain material upgrades if it is to survive the higher alcohol blend.
Nehmo - 27 Apr 2006 05:45 GMT Well, thanks. That settles it.
-- (||) Nehmo (||)
Kevin - 27 Apr 2006 09:52 GMT > I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126" > wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions, > and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so. > > Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it? The ECM (engine control Module) has circuitry that provides the ground for the fuel pump relay. That circuitry contains a timer circuit that only lets the pump run for a couple of seconds if there is no rpm signal recieved from the engine.
> If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's > the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank? Less expensive to make a pump that does not need to provide lift ( suction to pull gas from the tank).
> How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that > are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few > inches, have anything to do with the pump? Fuel tank configuration is different on different wheel bases. Therefore pump design varies.
> [1] The "flex-fuel", meaning can take either methanol+gasoline mix or > straight gas, part is indicated by the 8th character of the VIN, V for > flex-fuel, U for only straight gas. Apparently that detail is needed to > get the correct pump. Different pump construction materials are needed to handle the corrosive properties of extra methanol
 Signature Kevin Mouton Automotive Technology Instructor "If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green
> -- > (||) Nehmo (||) fiveiron@webtv.net - 06 May 2006 18:54 GMT >Less expensive to make a pump that >does not need to provide lift ( suction to >pull gas from the tank).
YEAH, you bet, until it comes time to replace it, then, the honeymoon is over.:--)
AND, why does a tank pump run 150-200 bucks, plus a gouge for installation, and a hang-on suck pump runs - quite a bit less?
mho ve
aarcuda69062 - 07 May 2006 00:35 GMT <snip>
> and a hang-on suck pump runs - quite a bit less? > > mho > vƒe How about an example of "quite a bit less?"
fiveiron@webtv.net - 07 May 2006 02:42 GMT >How about an example of "quite a bit >less?" ==== you surely aren't serious?
camshaft driven pumps use to cost 10-15 dollars when they were in vogue, probably don't make them anymore, electric pumps 40-50 dollars - tank pumps today run 150-200 bucks,
but you must take into consideration that the - pumps and present day fuel systems act synergistically, new design, requiring a different configuration all together.
mho ve
aarcuda69062 - 07 May 2006 03:44 GMT > >How about an example of "quite a bit >less?" > ==== > you surely aren't serious? No less serious than you are.
> camshaft driven pumps use to cost 10-15 dollars when they were in vogue, > probably don't make them anymore, electric pumps 40-50 dollars - tank > pumps today run 150-200 bucks, Let's see... Camshaft driven pump, 4-6 psi and delivers fuel in pulses Electric fuel pump, 30-65 PSI and delivers continuous steady pressure. So, to steal a phrase from a slightly shortsighted individual, "you surely aren't serious?"
> but you must take into consideration You consider it in 2006, I was considering it 28+ years ago.
> that the - pumps and present day > fuel systems act synergistically, new design, requiring a different > configuration all together. Yeah, EFI versus carburetors and all that mysterious stuff...
fiveiron@webtv.net - 06 May 2006 19:10 GMT >The "flex-fuel" - meaning can take either >methanol+gasoline mix or straight gas, >part is indicated by the 8th character of >the VIN - V for flex-fuel - U for only >straight gas. === AND, when a vin number has neither an "U OR "V" for the 8th character, but a "X" - what does the "X" indicate?
mho ve
Jeff Strickland - 03 May 2006 01:34 GMT >I successfully changed the fuel pump on my 2001 Ford Ranger 3.0L 126" > wheelbase, flex-fuel truck [1]. But I have some unanswered questions, > and they'll plague me the rest of my life if they remain so. > > Is there a fuel pump timer? How does it work, and where is it? Timer? There is no timer for the fuel pump.
> If indeed, the pump is cooled by fuel going *through* the pump, what's > the advantage of placing the pump *in* the tank? It's actually cooled by the fuel surrounding it. External pumps are cooled by fuel going through, but internal pumps are cooled by fuel surrounding them. Obviously there is a certain amount of cooling by the fuel passing through, but the pump is submerged, and that's where the primary cooling is accomplished.
> How come Ford has different pumps for different wheelbase trucks that > are the same otherwise? How can the wheelbase, differing by a few > inches, have anything to do with the pump? That's a good question. I'd guess that the tank is different on different wheelbase trucks, but that's only a guess.
Nehmo - 05 May 2006 00:31 GMT Jeff Strickland -
> It's actually cooled by the fuel surrounding it. External pumps are cooled > by fuel going through, but internal pumps are cooled by fuel surrounding > them. Obviously there is a certain amount of cooling by the fuel passing > through, but the pump is submerged, and that's where the primary cooling is > accomplished. I saw a diagram, which someone in one of these NGs posted, of a similar fuel pump. It appeared the motor was in the center of a cylinder and fuel driven by an impeller went around the motor as it went up through the cylinder. Thus the *motor* is submerged in the path of the fuel. Also, the pump I have, which is a little smaller than a toilet paper tube, comes with a rubber quarter-inch-thick sleeve to cushion the mounting clamp (maybe it quiets the pump too). If the designers expected liquid coming in contact with the exterior of the pump to collect heat, they would have at least made holes in the sleeve. -- (||) Nehmo (||)
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