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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2006

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why only piston cylinder engines.......

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jas - 03 May 2006 21:43 GMT
why the engines with piston cylinder arrngement so popular as compared
to other type of engines........
fclaugus - 03 May 2006 22:51 GMT
> why the engines with piston cylinder arrngement so popular as compared
> to other type of engines........

That's like asking why are there mostly jet engines on commercial
aircraft... best, most economical for the job...
Ad absurdum per aspera - 04 May 2006 00:58 GMT
As a philosophical basis you might want to read _Disturbing the
Universe_ by Freeman Dyson, especially the chapter entitled "Clades and
Clones," for an introduction to the evolution of technology.

That sort of engine has proved over time to be a manufacturable,
durable, reasonably efficient way to turn practical automotive fuels
into the amount of power that cars need, with startup time and demand
variability that drivers demand, in a compact package. Actually, the
particular arrangements most commonly used -- layouts and valvetrains
and number and size of cylinders -- are fairly few in number, in
passenger cars.

It is of course not by any means the only way of making wheels go
'round.  All sorts of things have been tried: steam came and went;
Wankels come and go.   Turbines make some sense for big stuff that
doesn't change speeds on the time scale that cars do (ships for
instance) but even there you find piston engines; turboshafts have been
tried in cars and it worked out only semisuccessfully.   Now
solid-state electronics enables hybrids to be pretty good (but the
fuel-burning  part still has pistons; ditto for the diesel-electric
locomotive, which is configured the way it is because of difficulties
in making clutches and gears for such huge power and the problems in
getting such a big load started.)    Pure electrics have been around
since darned near day one of the automobile, and are okay for certain
specialty uses, but the battery technology that could truly replace
fuel engines in passenger cars remains elusive (trains, again, are a
different story, as are trolley cars in some places, since you have
exact control over where the extension cord goes).    Fuel cells hold
much promise, or so it looks if you stare at the crystal ball awhile,
but they work best with fuels other than the now-ubiquitous gasoline...

But the ante in this game is pretty high -- both diesel and gasoline
piston engines are really rather amazing in what they can do and how
long they last and so forth -- and it'll take either a breakthrough by
one of the rivals or a big change in the ground rules to displace them.
Don Stauffer - 04 May 2006 14:36 GMT
> why the engines with piston cylinder arrngement so popular as compared
> to other type of engines........

The only other types I know of are turbines.  Turbines are way too
expensive for mass market.  Pistons are easily made on any of several
machine tools.  Turbine blades are not easily machinable shape, plus
materials need to be higher temperature materials which are not easy to
machine. And you need far more turbine blades than you do pistons.

A couple of decades ago companies tried direct cast turbine blades.  Had
to be out of lower temp materials, which ended up with low fuel
efficiency- not good in days of climbing fuel costs.
=AB Paul =BB - 05 May 2006 02:08 GMT
> why the engines with piston cylinder arrngement so popular as compared
> to other type of engines........

Overall they haven't found anything better.
pigcharger - 05 May 2006 05:14 GMT
because their easy to make maintain and cheap.. from a design and cost
of manufacturing point of view their the best we got. one day we will
all be fuel cells and electric but thats a long way off.
Steve - 09 May 2006 20:47 GMT
> because their easy to make maintain and cheap.. from a design and cost
> of manufacturing point of view their the best we got.

I disagree. Yes, this is true, but the reason that they are still around
is that other competitive direct fuel-burning engine architectures have
*universally* proven less efficient to operate in the automotive
application.

> one day we will
> all be fuel cells and electric but thats a long way off.

That's a fundamentally different animal- one that I would call "indirect
fuel-burning" at best. The real things to compare to piston engines are
turbines (gas and steam), reciprocating steam engines, and wankel engines.
Don Stauffer - 10 May 2006 14:46 GMT
But the reason automotive gas turbines have been inefficient is that
they are constrained by affordable and machinable turbine blades.
Military and modern civil aircraft turbines are getting VERY efficient,
but they run 20+ CR and VERY high turbine inlet temps.  These temps
would destroy affordable blades in minutes.

Turbines can be quite efficient, but only at the expensive of high TIT,
corresponding to fancy cooled blades made of exotic materials.

>> because their easy to make maintain and cheap.. from a design and cost
>> of manufacturing point of view their the best we got.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> *universally* proven less efficient to operate in the automotive
> application.
Scott Dorsey - 10 May 2006 15:06 GMT
>But the reason automotive gas turbines have been inefficient is that
>they are constrained by affordable and machinable turbine blades.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Turbines can be quite efficient, but only at the expensive of high TIT,
>corresponding to fancy cooled blades made of exotic materials.

So why isn't GM and Ford funding development of low-cost superalloy machining
techniques?
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Bernd Felsche - 10 May 2006 16:22 GMT
>>But the reason automotive gas turbines have been inefficient is
>>that they are constrained by affordable and machinable turbine
>>blades.  Military and modern civil aircraft turbines are getting
>>VERY efficient, but they run 20+ CR and VERY high turbine inlet
>>temps.  These temps would destroy affordable blades in minutes.

>>Turbines can be quite efficient, but only at the expensive of high
>>TIT, corresponding to fancy cooled blades made of exotic
>>materials.

>So why isn't GM and Ford funding development of low-cost superalloy
>machining techniques?

There are also the "minor" factors such as high(er) inlet
temperature near ground level, thermal cycling, noise and exhaust
gas temperature.

The last can be ameliorated by running a compound steam cycle
powered by the "waste" heat from the gas turbine combustion cycle.
This also improves total thermodynamic efficiency to be comparable
with IC engines; but with greater package volume.

That shouldn't matter so much with heavy haulage vehicles and the
duty cycle of them is better suited to has turbine deployment
anyway.

As for machining, "cheap" turbine blades can be made from a variety
of materials that are ostensibly difficult to machine; either by
lost-wax investment casting, or in the case of ceramics; growing the
material to the correct shape.

But one doesn't need materials frequently used in aircraft gas
turbines: At the end of WWII, due to lack of exotic alloys, Germany
was making cheap gas turbine blades from folded sheet alloy steel,
cooled internally by airflow bled from (IIRC) the first stage of the
compressor. Such blades had a rated life of about 100 hours; about
200 flights; but other parts of the engine usually failed before the
turbine blades. The technique of internal cooling has since been
re-invented at least twice.

Steel is by itself a good thermal insulator is no panacea. The
stress on the outer "skin" of a hollow blade will be under
compressive stress, trying to stretch its cooled core. Improving the
thermal conductivity (or just the wall thickness) reduces the
stresses and the skin temperature.

Various surface treatments can help to reduce the peak temperature
experienced by the steel of the structural blade. It should be
obvious that the surface treatments need to be applied with the
blade at about operating temperature to minimise the stress imposed
on the core and the surface coat. However, when the blade cools an
internal "tension" is likely to prevail, making for a situation
where a fracture could be "explosive". One mode of failure is for
the surface to flake-off, leaving the unprotected steel exposed to
the hot gases.

That doesn't matter in an aircraft because aircraft are subject to
close mechanical scrutiny, often mandated. Put them into a car that
might see a workshop every 2 years and run perhaps 1000 hours with
2000 full thermal cycles between cursory inspections and you have a
problem.

A gas turbine for normal automotive use has to be tougher than one
for aircraft. Even when maintenance is neglected, it has to have
similar reserves of safety, strength and durability to an IC engine.
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X   against HTML mail     |  they threaten."
/ \  and postings          | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

fiveiron@webtv.net - 10 May 2006 17:23 GMT
the present day gasoline engines for motor cars is apparently offering
the most bang for the buck,

but conditions that are surely to come will require engine downsizing,
as the trend has been of late.

the present day technology for gasoline engines is to be commended, it
in itself has synergistic value that's unequalled.

>mho
>vƒe

>D r i v e / E a t  L e s s - $ a v e  M o n e y  
Kevin Bottorff - 10 May 2006 18:45 GMT
fiveiron@webtv.net wrote in news:7692-44621371-44@storefull-
3316.bay.webtv.net:

> the present day gasoline engines for motor cars is apparently offering
> the most bang for the buck,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>>D r i v e / E a t  L e s s - $ a v e  M o n e y

http://www.regtech.com/
check out this wankel type modern design to see what may be on the
horizon. Fixed the  many wankel problems and has a lot to appreciate.  KB

Signature

Thunder Snake #9
"Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

Don Stauffer - 11 May 2006 14:51 GMT
> the present day gasoline engines for motor cars is apparently offering
> the most bang for the buck,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>>D r i v e / E a t  L e s s - $ a v e  M o n e y  

That is why hybrids hold so much promise.  One big source of
inefficiency on gasoline engines is throttling.  Excessive throttling
spoils efficiency.

Any car has two power requirements, average power, say to cruise at
constant speed at some cruise MPH, and peak power- the desired
acceleration rate.  A PROPER hybrid should have the IC sized for the
average power required, and the electric motor sized for the difference
between peak and average horsepower.

A proper hybrid is a series hybrid, in which case the engine is either
on or off, and never operates at partial load.  So no throttle is needed.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 13 May 2006 04:57 GMT
>10-4 on Excessive throttling spoils >efficiency.
moral: hiway speeds governed with a cruise control is being frugal.

but at what steady topside hiway speed yields the most mpg?

>mho
>vƒe

>D r i v e / E a t  L e s s - $ a v e  M o n e y  
Don Stauffer - 13 May 2006 15:06 GMT
>>10-4 on Excessive throttling spoils >efficiency.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>>D r i v e / E a t  L e s s - $ a v e  M o n e y  

I have seen a number of studies stating between 50 and 55 mph for most
modern cars.

Consider that it requires 36% more fuel to drive a given distance at 70
mph than at 60.
Bernd Felsche - 13 May 2006 15:34 GMT
>>>10-4 on Excessive throttling spoils >efficiency.

>> moral: hiway speeds governed with a cruise control is being frugal.

>> but at what steady topside hiway speed yields the most mpg?

>I have seen a number of studies stating between 50 and 55 mph for most
>modern cars.

>Consider that it requires 36% more fuel to drive a given distance
>at 70 mph than at 60.

Codswallop. You don't have to drive a *tank*.

My fuel consumption rises from about 5.5 l/100km to 5.7 l/100km on
good, smooth pavement when speed is increased from 100 to 110 km/h

The most fuel-efficient depends on the vehicle, (including
condition), the fuel being used, the load it's carrying, the road,
traffic and weather conditions; and not least; the manner of driving.

It's not a fixed number.

You can save fuel by driving more quickly in summer because
airconditioning sucks fuel dependent on the time that you're on the
road and the heat load on the passenger compartment. Driving more
quickly reduces the total amount of fuel required to keep the
interior of the vehicle comfortable. That amount can vary from 0.5
to 3 litres/hour -- depending on the car, the weather and the
setting of the fridge.
Signature

/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because
X   against HTML mail     |  they threaten."
/ \  and postings          | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD.

Don Stauffer - 11 May 2006 14:48 GMT
>>But the reason automotive gas turbines have been inefficient is that
>>they are constrained by affordable and machinable turbine blades.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> techniques?
> --scott

'cause they are both hurting financially.  Also, this development has
been going on for fifty years without success so far, and they may have
concluded there IS no practical solution.

It used to be in the aerospace industry I'd read, every two or three
years, of such a breakthrough, either a new material or a new ceramic
coating method.  NONE of these really worked- well, a few worked but are
still so expensive they're only useful in military or expensive long
range commercial aircraft.
John S. - 09 May 2006 21:09 GMT
> why the engines with piston cylinder arrngement so popular as compared
> to other type of engines........

There are many reasons that we have stayed with the piston engine for
converting one form of energy to another.  Inertia is somewhere on the
list I'm sure.  But close to the top of the list is it's operating
flexibility, or the ability of the piston engine to perform at a wide
range of speeds and to change speeds quickly.  Other designs such as
the turbine and stirling are more suited to constant speed
applications.  The electric motor probably exceeds the operating
flexibility of the piston engine but it suffers because efficient ways
of providing an adequate supply of energy are still being developed.
fiveiron@webtv.net - 09 May 2006 22:15 GMT
as stated by others, so far, it's the best kid on the block.

I want a wankel (mazda) but don't have room for it at the present time,
they have always - amused me.

I read in the news where there was a motor manufacturing facility being
built in china -

for world-wide distribution of - auto engines. Not sure if it was
wankel, doesn't seem feasible - now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

>mho
>vƒe

>     "drive less - is this trip neseccary"
>               ? ? ?      
 
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