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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2006

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White smoke...Any chance it will go away?

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supafly - 16 May 2006 12:56 GMT
I just changed the following on a 93 Saturn SL1

Timing Chain and pulley and tensioners
4 Exhaust valves
4 Rocker Arms
Head gasket

The engine used to blow some smoke, now it pretty much billows when you
give it gas. Is there any chance this smoke will stop happening? I
torqued the head down exactly as the Haynes said, from memory, I think
it said torque in sequence to 40 something ft/lbs then undo them in
sequence, then put oil on threads and retorque to 30 something
ft/lbs... The engine has powe and isn't making any crazy noises... I
added coolant as it was running and some oil before hand.

Thanks if anyone has any suggestions...

I put a rag to the tail pipe... just wondering, is it possible for the
pipe to blow then suck?
runderwo@mail.win.org - 16 May 2006 20:18 GMT
Check the compression.  You probably have a lot of blowby which was
exacerbated by the valve job. The DOHC engine is known for premature
self-destruction of the ring seal but I don't know if the SOHC has
similar issues or not.
Lhead - 16 May 2006 20:59 GMT
One of the tests for a burned or leaking exhaust valve is to put rag
over the tailpipe and look/feel for a pressure/suction sequence. The
suction will indicate a exhaust valve leaking and allowing flow up
through the exhaust system on the intake stroke of the affected
cylinder.
aarcuda69062 - 16 May 2006 22:34 GMT
In article
<1147780577.865874.20520@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,

> I just changed the following on a 93 Saturn SL1
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I put a rag to the tail pipe... just wondering, is it possible for the
> pipe to blow then suck?

Your head bolt torque specs are wrong, should have been
[step 1] 22 ft.lbs, [step 2] 33 ft.lbs (two passes) and an
additional 90 degrees.

Torque to yield bolts, which means you shouldn't re-use them.
N8N - 16 May 2006 23:26 GMT
> I just changed the following on a 93 Saturn SL1
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> sequence, then put oil on threads and retorque to 30 something
> ft/lbs...

That really doesn't sound right to me...  might want to recheck those
torque specs.  I've never heard of a spec that called for a torque and
then backing off and retorquing to a lower spec.  I would expect that
these would be TTY bolts like many smaller modern engines meaning that
you would torque to a certain torque value (in one or more steps) and
then add a final tightening in degrees.  If the torque spec is *only* a
torque value you are probably OK reusing head bolts but if they are TTY
(i.e. the final tightening step is expressed in degrees) they should
have been replaced.

> The engine has powe and isn't making any crazy noises... I
> added coolant as it was running and some oil before hand.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I put a rag to the tail pipe... just wondering, is it possible for the
> pipe to blow then suck?

not in my experience.  You should get pulses, but I wouldn't think
you'd see any reversion at the tailpipe unless you've got some
seriously radical cam timing.

Here's something to think about though... one time I was helping my
friend resurrect a "barn car" '56 Golden Hawk.  We fixed the brakes and
dumped ATF down the plug holes, got the engine to spin over (it was
lightly seized) then changed the oil, spun it up until oil pressure
came up, changed the points and condenser, and went for a drive.  Car
actually ran pretty well, and my friend was driving when he decided to
get on it a little going up a long hill.  Next thing you know there was
this HUGE cloud of light grey smoke following us... fearing the worst,
he drove slowly back to the garage for a post mortem.  Only unusual
thing that we found was evidence of a mouse nest in the driver's side
tailpipe.  After driving the car another hundred miles or so, the smoke
stopped.

As best we can figure, what happened was little critters built nests
inside the exhaust system of the car, blocking the driver's side of the
exhaust downstream of the mufflers, which were glasspacks.  All the ATF
that we'd poured down the cylinders ended up going out the exhaust as
you'd expect; but the ATF that blew out the pass. side exited before
the engine got really hot.  When he stuck his boot in it, he blew out
the mouse nest and all that ATF that was soaked into the 'glass in the
driver's side muffler suddenly ignited, causing the huge cloud o' doom.
At least that's the best explanation I can come up with, since the car
didn't seem to lose fluids in any alarming quantity, didn't overheat,
miss, etc.

Any chance something like this happened to your car?

As a final note, I have seen a few smoking Saturns, but they all seemed
to be burning oil.  Any chance what looks white in your rear view
mirror is really a light blue?

nate
supafly - 17 May 2006 02:57 GMT
Yeah aarcuda69062 you are right. That is what I did. I was going from
memory. I installed new exhaust valves, so how could they be leaking so
badly? Would it take just one valve to create the suction?
The smoke does smell like oil, but if its got any blue to it, it is
just a light blue. Why would this thing smoke so bad after the repairs?

SOMEONE TOLD ME I SHOULD LET IT IDLE FOR 30 MINUTES OR SO AND THAT THE
SMOKE WOULD GO AWAY. Does that sound right?

Why would a valve job on the exhaust side exacerbate a ring blow-by
problem? Just trying to learn what I can!

I'll do a compression test in the morning to see if I've got a cyl. out
of whack...

Thanks everyone. I hope I didn't kill this motor...

-Supa
aarcuda69062 - 17 May 2006 03:20 GMT
> Yeah aarcuda69062 you are right. That is what I did. I was going from
> memory. I installed new exhaust valves, so how could they be leaking so
> badly? Would it take just one valve to create the suction?

Did you install new valve seals, did you use a protector sleeve
over the valve tip when installing the valves so the seals
wouldn't get nicked?  Are/were the valve guides worn oversize?
Yes, there is enough suction in the exhaust port to draw oil past
the valve guide, classic "burns oil but there's no evidence of it
in the cylinder/on the spark plug."

> The smoke does smell like oil, but if its got any blue to it, it is
> just a light blue. Why would this thing smoke so bad after the repairs?

Burning oil doesn't always have a blue color.

> SOMEONE TOLD ME I SHOULD LET IT IDLE FOR 30 MINUTES OR SO AND THAT THE
> SMOKE WOULD GO AWAY. Does that sound right?

It's possible that you got enough coolant down the exhaust to
cause these exact symptoms.  I don't see any harm in giving it a
good run to see if the 'smoke" goes away, as long as you're
confident that everything is assembled correctly.

> Why would a valve job on the exhaust side exacerbate a ring blow-by
> problem? Just trying to learn what I can!

As an engine ages, all parts wear, rings, valves, valve guides,
bearings, you do a valve job and tighten things up up on top and
the result is that the next weakest area shows itself.

> I'll do a compression test in the morning to see if I've got a cyl. out
> of whack...

A cylinder leakage test also if you have access to a leak down
tester.

> Thanks everyone. I hope I didn't kill this motor...
>
> -Supa
supafly - 17 May 2006 03:47 GMT
aarcuda69062, would one bad valve instal cause the smoke to billow out?
As I put in the valves, I pulled them through the valve seal and it
created a suction that I could feel good and strong on my finger.
That's all I did really when I put the new valves in. I did use a valve
lapping tool and give each a good rub. I oiled the valves as I
installed them. One of the valves was bent, which is why I installed
new valves. Could this one bent valve have cause damage that I don't
know about? the new valve slides back and forth good and creates the
suction I mentioned above... All valves seemed to seat nicely on the
head when installed.

I have a screw on compression guage with an adapter that I can hook my
compressor to, but I've never blown air into it before, only used it to
guage compression...

Thanks so much

-supa
Kaz Kylheku - 17 May 2006 19:19 GMT
> installed them. One of the valves was bent, which is why I installed
> new valves.

That's kind of an important fact there, not mentioned in your first
post!

A bent valve almost certainly indicates that the engine had been
through an incident in which that valve collided with the piston. Did
your timing chain break? Is this an exhaust valve or intake valve? Even
if the chain or belt doesn't break, this can still happen if a valve
sticks open.

When that happens, pistons can get damaged too, not only valves.
Pistons can crack or shatter completely. Connecting rods can bend.  A
cracked piston can admit oil into the combustion chamber, yet maybe
show good compression under a compression test. Depends on the size of
the crack, right?

You said that the car smoked a little before you did the repair. But
was that also before the valve was bent? Did the car actually drive
with the bent valve? How bent was it? Do you have a digital image?

Also, you should have taken good close-up shots of the tops of the
pistons when you had it open.

> Could this one bent valve have cause damage that I don't
> know about?

The bent valve /is/ damage. There could be additional damage.

> the new valve slides back and forth good and creates the
> suction I mentioned above... All valves seemed to seat nicely on the
> head when installed.

What about your observation of there being vacuum in the exhaust
system? Is that happening now, or was that before the repair? If you
had a bent exhaust valve which cannot completely close, of course
intake vacuum would spread into the exhaust system.
supafly - 17 May 2006 20:17 GMT
Thanks for the reply Kaz Kylheku!!!!!

After changing the timing chain because it was noisy (the tentioners
were all in pieces) I put everything back together and cranked the
engine by key (not by hand- I learned my lesson ...) So I only cranked
it a couple times. There was a sickening kind of clunk. I double
checked everything and realized I had my timing off 45 degrees counter
clockwise. I pulled the spark plugs and gently rotated the motor by
hand and realized that when 1 and 4 would not go completely TDC, off by
about 1 degree or something. So I pulled the head and found that the #1
valve had the tip broken off. The cyl. head was just fine (I did take
pictures, but I don't have them handy now...). I carefully inspected
everything before putting everything back together. The only thing I
can figure is that I should have installed the valve seals, instead of
just doing my little suction test. I've never replaced a valve before.
I did lap the valves when I installed them.  BTW, the valves that I
replaced were the exhaust. The intake looked just fine. I replaced all
the exhaust out of precaution. they were not damaged like the first.

I don't know about the engine before I started all this. I know it
smoked, but nothing like it does now.

Could enough oil leak through one bad valve seal to blow tons of smoke?

I chipped the bottom of the valve guide off, but there was no visible
play with the valve- I'm going to recheck this when I install the valve
seals in a couple days. The new valve moved up and down in the guide
freely, as did all the other valves.

-supa
 
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