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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / April 2005

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98 Sable - Baffling Overheating Problem

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Matthew - 12 Jul 2004 19:25 GMT
This one is a real doozy and I'm going to try to condense this as much as
possible.

About three weeks ago, the water pump went out on my '98 Sable.  A couple of
the impellers were broken off.  The temperature climbed a little, but never
got over about 85% of maximum.  I shut her down really fast to avoid engine
damage.  Coolant rolled out of the overflow tank (there is no visible radiator
cap on this car, by the way.)

After replacement, everything was fine for a couple of weeks.  Then, about 23
miles into my 38.5 mile commute to work, after the temperature had remained
steady and normal the whole time, I was going about 70 miles per hour and the
temperature slowly started to climb, but not nearly as fast as it did when the
water pump went out.  I had time to judge what might be happening, but it
continued to slowly climb so I pulled into a restaurant and shut it down and
lost coolant through the overflow tank.

I checked for blockage of airflow, but didn't see any.  I removed the
thermostat before driving it home.  I made it about as far as I'd come on the
way to work, and the temperature climbed again.  I had to pull over about 900
yards from the house.  The mechanics at the shop found a plastic ice bag
between the condenser and radiator where I was unable to see.  I would have
checked for that myself, but I never imagined anything could blow up into that
little space and I would have had to stick my face under the car and look up
in there.  I would have if I could have imagined, but I just didn't.  They
pulled that out and installed the new thermostat I'd purchased, then test
drove it and sent me on my way.  They gave me the bag, too.  It had not been
melted, so there shouldn't be any plastic clogging the fins of the radiator.

On the way to work that same afternoon, the temperature again remained steady
and very normal, then started climbing again, this time about 17 miles into my
trip, just like it did when I'd had the ice bag embarrassment: just slowly
creeping up.  I pulled over again and watched the water roll out of the
overflow tank again.

Now at none of these points did the car ever get into the "danger zone" of
overheating.  At the most, it hit about 85% of the maximum reading on the
gauge.  My dad taught me well.  When it starts overheating, kill it quick!

First, a few key points:

    1. The car has approximately 153,000 miles on it, but has
       been very dependable.

    2. This car has never been one to overheat.  It's always run
       just dead on normal, even in heavy traffic and in the
       hottest part of the day, just right at 45% up the gauge.
       It's never even hinted at even climbing a single hair
       over 45%.  I even tested it one day by letting it idle on
       a hot day at 105º with the air conditioner on for 30
       minutes and the temperature didn't climb at all.

    3. I'll be driving along and the temperature will be normal
       for 20-25 miles, sometimes more, sometimes less.  Then
       suddenly it'll start climbing.  It doesn't go up, then
       down, then up more then back down, then up even more,
       then back down.  It just starts slowly creeping up and
       doesn't stop.

    4. The engine cools down VERY quickly after it starts
       getting too warm.  The mechanic said that once the
       temperature climbed, he turned the key off and let it
       coast for just a bit.  He started it back up and the
       temperature had already returned to normal.  And no, the
       temperature gauge is not malfunctioning.  Indeed, when
       the temperature gauge is up there, there's no mistaking
       the coolant boiling out onto the ground, or the hot,
       steamy cloud rolling out from under the hood.

I got it back to the garage and here's what we know so far:

    1. It's been flushed and reflushed and reflushed again.  The
       mechanics believe the system is clean.

    2. It's been pressure tested and pressure tested again.
       There are no leaks.

    3. The new water pump was replaced with another new water
       pump.

    4. The new thermostat was replaced with another new
       thermostat.

    5. The mechanics say I do not have a blown head gasket.

    6. The mechanics say my radiator is not clogged up.  (The
       radiator that's in there now is a new one I had installed
       back in December of 2003.)

    7. The mechanics say my heater core is not clogged up and
       that the recall work to provide a bypass route around the
       heater core has already been installed.

    8. The mechanics checked to make sure the lower radiator
       hose was not collapsing.

    9. The mechanics say there are no air pockets in the engine.

They're out of ideas.  They're now outsourcing opinions on iATN, which is
absolutely fine with me.  I'm glad they're doing that instead of just telling
me they give up.  But I haven't worked in a week now because I require my car
during working hours.  I'm posting here to absorb all possible ideas from
those who might have run across this mysterious behavior in a car before,
particularly a Ford/Mercury.  It doesn't seem to be to be caused by any common
problem and everybody involved seems to be at a loss.

Any ideas will be appreciated to no end.

Thanks,
Matthew
E. Meyer - 12 Jul 2004 19:46 GMT
On 7/12/04 1:25 PM, in article dng5f0934fngfruc50su26mtlkcrpnhauo@4ax.com,

> This one is a real doozy and I'm going to try to condense this as much as
> possible.
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> Thanks,
> Matthew

Does it have electric radiator fans?  Are they coming on?

Where did the broken impeller blades go from the water pump?  If they are
still in there somewhere, they could be causing an obstruction.
Matthew - 12 Jul 2004 20:31 GMT
> Does it have electric radiator fans?  Are they coming on?

Wow, I thought I covered everything.  Yes, the fans work.

> Where did the broken impeller blades go from the water pump?  If they are
> still in there somewhere, they could be causing an obstruction.

The impellers were recovered.  I saw them sitting beside the water pump.

Matthew
BOB URZ - 12 Jul 2004 21:22 GMT
> > Does it have electric radiator fans?  Are they coming on?
>
> Wow, I thought I covered everything.  Yes, the fans work.

Not sure about which  years, but i though some had 2 speed fans As i recall.
Maybe its not going on high speed if that's the case? If thats the case, it could
be the fan or the IRM (relay module).

> > Where did the broken impeller blades go from the water pump?  If they are
> > still in there somewhere, they could be causing an obstruction.
>
> The impellers were recovered.  I saw them sitting beside the water pump.
>
> Matthew

I assume the system was pressure tested and a new radiator cap put on? Maybe you
should pull the radiator  and have it boiled out at the radiator shop and have
them inspect it closely.

Bob
Matthew - 13 Jul 2004 00:51 GMT
> > > Does it have electric radiator fans?  Are they coming on?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Maybe its not going on high speed if that's the case? If thats the case, it could
> be the fan or the IRM (relay module).

Do you think the fans really make a difference when I'm going 70 miles an hour
down the highway?

> > > Where did the broken impeller blades go from the water pump?  If they are
> > > still in there somewhere, they could be causing an obstruction.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> should pull the radiator  and have it boiled out at the radiator shop and have
> them inspect it closely.

They put a new cap on, yeah.  The radiator is fairly new.  It was installed in
2003.  I've never heard of one stopping up that quickly, but I suppose
anything is possible.
E. Meyer - 13 Jul 2004 02:09 GMT
On 7/12/04 6:51 PM, in article s396f0dupsmn706f8lcarrnrjri6431e0q@4ax.com,

>>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:46:34 GMT, "E. Meyer" <e52.meyer0SPAM@ieee.org>
>>> posted
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Do you think the fans really make a difference when I'm going 70 miles an hour
> down the highway?

I wouldn't think so.  It wasn't clear (at least not to me) from the earlier
posts what your speed is when it overheats.  This whole thing is sounding
more and more like an obstruction somewhere in the water jacket.


>>>> Where did the broken impeller blades go from the water pump?  If they are
>>>> still in there somewhere, they could be causing an obstruction.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 2003.  I've never heard of one stopping up that quickly, but I suppose
> anything is possible.
Bob Urz - 13 Jul 2004 04:17 GMT
> On 7/12/04 6:51 PM, in article s396f0dupsmn706f8lcarrnrjri6431e0q@4ax.com,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> more and more like an obstruction somewhere in the water jacket.
>  

Strange. Is the engine performance dropping off any when this happens?
Maybe the engine running lean and then overheating? Changed the fuel
filter lately? I would think it would set a code. (have you had the
codes scanned ?).

Other off the wall ideas. Collapsing radiator hose? Partially plugged
oil pump screen? Have you had the plugs out and do they look normal?

Bob
Ford Man - 13 Jul 2004 01:51 GMT
Hi Just thought I would let you know that a similar situation happened
to me. I found the problem too late to help me.  One or two of the
ports from the engine block to the head filled with corrosion until it
restricted the flow enough to cause the engin to overheat no matter
what I did. I found this problem after I pushed it one time too many
and lost the motor. I was overly curious so I started to take the
motor apart and found the problem. You might mention this to the
garage.  Mine also flushed fine as the water just flowed through the
uncloged waterways.

> On 7/12/04 1:25 PM, in article dng5f0934fngfruc50su26mtlkcrpnhauo@4ax.com,
>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
> Where did the broken impeller blades go from the water pump?  If they are
> still in there somewhere, they could be causing an obstruction.
Matthew - 13 Jul 2004 05:28 GMT
> Hi Just thought I would let you know that a similar situation
> happened to me.  I found the problem too late to help me.  One or
> two of the ports from the engine block to the head filled with
> corrosion until it restricted the flow enough to cause the engin
> to overheat no matter what I did.

Did it overheat in the same way I'm describing?  Doing fine for about 20 or 30
miles down the highway, then suddenly climbing?

> I found this problem after I pushed it one time too many and lost
> the motor.  I was overly curious so I started to take the motor
> apart and found the problem.  You might mention this to the
> garage.  Mine also flushed fine as the water just flowed through
> the uncloged waterways.

What would the solution have been to clear out the corrosion?  Seems like if
flushing won't get it out, then I might as well consider it a head gasket job
or something since they'd probably have to do some major work to tear it apart
and clean out whatever's clogging it.  Might as well replace those gaskets
while they're at it, huh.
Bobb - 13 Apr 2005 18:33 GMT
>>Hi Just thought I would let you know that a similar situation
>>happened to me.  I found the problem too late to help me.  One or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Did it overheat in the same way I'm describing?  Doing fine for about 20 or 30
> miles down the highway, then suddenly climbing?

I have a 93 sable 3.8L, 117K miles which behaved in a similar fashion for about
2 years.
It would start out ok and then after about 15 - 30 minutes depending on traffic
speed it would heat up until the needle was at 'N' of 'Normal' or sometimes
slightly above. It never got to red.  Here are things I did that made NO difference:

1.  Flushed and pressure tested the cooling system (3 times)
2.  Tested the water pump effectiveness. Tested the coolant for hydrocarbons.
3.  Changed the coolant several more times.
4.  Lastly changed the radiator in Jan 2005.

The behaviour would change for a while and then slowly return.  Though
occasionally it would stay at normal for an entire 30 minute drive.

Most times turning on the air-conditioning would lower the temp except when
climbing hills.

>>I found this problem after I pushed it one time too many and lost
>>the motor.  I was overly curious so I started to take the motor
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and clean out whatever's clogging it.  Might as well replace those gaskets
> while they're at it, huh.

Last friday at a stop light near home it suddenly started to rough idle. So I
got home and shut it down.  When I started it the next day coolant poured out
the  tail pipe with white smoke. So I shut it down and called a repair shop.

The mechanic says he has seen several of these and the back 2 cylinders develop
leaks to cooland passages, so I needed a head gasket job ($1500).  He said that
as the leak is developing the car would tend to overheat and give poor milage.
In my car the milage had dropped from 21 -22 to 17mpg in the city. He said the
new head gasket would be better grade and thought I could get up to about 150K
without another major repair.

I only ever saw white smoke(or smoke of any kind) the day after when I tried to
start the engine.

I have heard the Ford was offering some kind of warranty on the head gaskets up
to 7 years/100K miles which is beyond my car and yours.

Not sure this helps.  But I thought the head gasket job may be something you
should go for, before it acutally blows.  There is a possibility of coolant
damaging the crankshaft bearings when it blows and that means a new engine.
kenny gee17253@hotmail.com - 14 Apr 2005 04:23 GMT
>>>Hi Just thought I would let you know that a similar situation
>>>happened to me.  I found the problem too late to help me.  One or
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>Most times turning on the air-conditioning would lower the temp except when
>climbing hills.

check for AIR resriction
look between rad and condensor
its plugged

hurc ast
dbird@sprynet.com - 12 Jul 2004 20:58 GMT
> This one is a real doozy and I'm going to try to condense this as much as
> possible.
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> Thanks,
> Matthew
when the impeller in the old water pump broke; did you get all the old
parts out???? if not that might be your problem.. they was floating in
the system and blocking the flow??? take the pump off and put the hose
in there and blow it out(the pump and the engine) if you cant account
for all the broken plastic parts that might be the problem????
did the new pump also break??? on my 96 contour its got the plastic
impeller and there was a crack in it and the shaft would turn and the
impeller would just stay there and no pump any coolant... all the pieces
were inside the pump and never broke away...if it did i would have
hunted for all the pieces of plastic.....
Scott M - 13 Jul 2004 13:57 GMT
> This one is a real doozy and I'm going to try to condense this as much as
> possible.
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> Thanks,
> Matthew
==========
Anyone check for exaust in the cooling system? Your first overheat could
have caused a head gasket to go....
Matthew - 13 Jul 2004 15:19 GMT
> Anyone check for exaust in the cooling system? Your first overheat could
> have caused a head gasket to go....

The head gaskets are fine.  The test was done to check for exhaust in the
cooling system, and another test was done to check for coolant fumes in the
exhaust.  Both were negative.  And the car never actually overheated.  It was
headed that way, but I shut it down before it actually happened.

Thanks,
matthew
Matthew - 13 Jul 2004 16:33 GMT
> Anyone check for exaust in the cooling system? Your first overheat could
> have caused a head gasket to go....

I called in for an update on the situation and of the 15 replies they received
from iATN members, 13 of them voted for head gasket problems.  They're doing a
pressure test for that now.  I should know something this afternoon.  Good god
I hope it's not head gaskets!  That's never cheap work.

The only baffling thing is the fact that the oil has no water in it.

Matthew
Scott M - 13 Jul 2004 18:49 GMT
> > Anyone check for exaust in the cooling system? Your first overheat could
> > have caused a head gasket to go....
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The only baffling thing is the fact that the oil has no water in it.

It doesnt have to- to be a head gasket. it could have a small leak from the
combution chamber to the cooling system. That would also cause your boiling
over without it being "overheated"
BOB URZ - 13 Jul 2004 19:45 GMT
> > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:57:22 GMT, "Scott M" <no@no.com> posted a message
> in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> combution chamber to the cooling system. That would also cause your boiling
> over without it being "overheated"

You might want to check this out:

http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums/live/Ford/132.html

Bob
Matthew - 14 Jul 2004 20:57 GMT
> You might want to check this out:
>
> http://www.cartrackers.com/Forums/live/Ford/132.html

Thanks for the link.  I'm hoping that maybe they might find the problem now,
but if they have to pull the engine to replace all the freeze plugs, that's
going to be one hella expensive job.
BOB URZ - 14 Jul 2004 21:40 GMT
> > You might want to check this out:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> but if they have to pull the engine to replace all the freeze plugs, that's
> going to be one hella expensive job.

Good luck on what ever you have to do. My philosophy is do the cheap stuff first
before you move on to the expensive stuff. I am afraid your
on the road to expensive stuff. SOmewhere around the mid 90's, they changed
something in the 3.0's that caused internal corrosion problems.
I am still not quite sure the how and the why of this. It did not seem to affect
the earlier ones. If they have to do the freeze plugs, they need to change them
all which is an expensive proposition due to access.
Pulling the heads is no cheap operation either. Let us know how it all
comes out.

Bob
Matthew - 14 Jul 2004 20:46 GMT
> It doesnt have to- to be a head gasket. it could have a small leak from the
> combution chamber to the cooling system. That would also cause your boiling
> over without it being "overheated"

Yeah.  My dad corrected me on that.  But the shop said after the tests that
the head gaskets are okay.

Now they're pulling the freeze plugs to see if there's any gunk built up in
there.  If those are clean, they're going to pull the radiator.  THey would
have done the radiator already, but according to their book it's a 6 hour job.
When I had the radiator replaced before, they started working on it at around
8:30 or 9:00am.  I went and picked it up at 4:10pm and I only had to wait that
long because I was waiting for a ride to take me to pick it up.
Butcher - 13 Jul 2004 23:55 GMT
> This one is a real doozy and I'm going to try to condense this as much as
> possible.

Snip>

Thanks,
> Matthew

Hmmm, it seems all bases have been covered already, except - I assume this
is an automatic transmission vehicle? If so, a malfunctioning transmission
could be what is caiusing overheating of the cooling system. I had the same
symptoms with a Dodge I used to have. Never really suspected it as a cause
till it started slipping so bad I could feel it.
The overheating tranny overheated the trans fluid and since it was cooled
through the radiator, it caused the engine coolant to overheat.....fixed the
trans, no more overheating.
 
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