Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / September 2004
Likely error at Intellichoice re: Chrysler P/T Cruiser Safety Feature
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Please invert everything left of the @ to reply - 16 Aug 2004 04:09 GMT Editor, Chrysler web pages Intellichoice.Com
Dear Sir or Madam:
Your web page describing the P/T Cruiser http://www.intellichoice.com/reports/vehicleReport.cfm/vehicle_nmb/100021082 stated in part: "For added safety, all four PT Cruisers include side impact air bags, anti-lock brakes with traction control, child seat anchor system, and child safety locks."
This seems to be contradicted by the Safety web page for the P/T at Chrysler.com http://www.chrysler.com/pt_cruiser/features/safety/index.html?context=pt_cruiser -index&type=left which states: "The available supplemental side air bags* (standard on '04 PT Cruiser Limited, Platinum Series, GT, Dream Cruiser Series 3, and '05 PT Cruiser Convertible GT) for front occupants offer additional protection for driver and front-outboard passenger in the event of a collision." That suggests the Base model does not include the Supplemental Air Bags.
I look forward to your response.
Sincerely yours,
John Bartley Portland, ORegon cc: USENET's alt.autos,rec.auto.makers.chrysler
-- Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 16 Aug 2004 19:05 GMT Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without* side airbags while they're still available.
> Editor, Chrysler web pages > Intellichoice.Com [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > -- > Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT. yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 16 Aug 2004 20:21 GMT >> Editor, Chrysler web pages >> Intellichoice.Com [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> Portland, ORegon >> cc: USENET's alt.autos,rec.auto.makers.chrysler
>Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without* >side airbags while they're still available. Why not improve the safety of the vehicle? The IIHS says they are an improvement.
>> Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT. -- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 16 Aug 2004 20:30 GMT > >Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without* > >side airbags while they're still available.
> Why not improve the safety of the vehicle? Indeed, vehicle safety benefits are good -- when they're real, significant and not accompanied by safety *disbenefits*. Airbags as implemented in North America flunk the "significant" test and the "not accompanied by safety disbenefits" test, so the "real" test is a moot point.
> The IIHS says they are an > improvement. The IIHS says lots of things. Some of them are probably motivated by purehearted desire to reduce traffic-related injuries, but many of them are demonstrably motivated by desire to increase profits for their founder and sponsor, the auto insurance industry. IIHS: Insurance is their first name; Safety is their last.
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 17 Aug 2004 23:22 GMT >> >Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without* >> >side airbags while they're still available.
>> Why not improve the safety of the vehicle?
>Indeed, vehicle safety benefits are good -- when they're real, significant >and not accompanied by safety *disbenefits*. Airbags as implemented in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >and sponsor, the auto insurance industry. IIHS: Insurance is their first >name; Safety is their last. Lower injury rate & less expensive claims -> lower rates -> higher profits, or so it would seem to me. Perhaps you could explain, with a specific illustration of a case in point, when the IIHS has advocated for something profitable yet unsafe? I am having a hard time understanding how that could be.
Thank you, in advance, for your response.
-- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 18 Aug 2004 00:51 GMT > Lower injury rate & less expensive claims -> lower rates -> higher > profits, or so it would seem to me. Airbags only significantly reduce injuries and deaths in extremely severe crashes, and in North America, even this significant reduction is very small -- it is dragged down by the injuries US-spec airbags inflict due to the requirement of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 208 that bags be calibrated to "save" an UNbelted 50th-percentile size/weight "male" dummy. In order to meet this requirement, the deployment threshhold of deceleration is much lower than that experienced in the severe crashes in which an airbag might be of actual benefit.
The vehicular damage caused *by the airbag deployments alone* can easily run into many thousands of dollars, _not_ counting whatever vehicular damage is caused by whatever is hit. Vehicles are frequently written off (totalled) with relatively very minor collision damage, because of the extensive damage caused by the airbags going off. (complete dashboard assembly, windshield, side glass, B-pillar and/or door interior panels, airbags themselves...)
> Perhaps you could explain, with a specific illustration of a case in > point, when the IIHS has advocated for something profitable yet unsafe? Interstate highway speed limits NOT posted in accordance with the 85th-percentile principle, which has been repeatedly and robustly demonstrated for many decades to result in the lowest number of crashes and injuries. It is far more profitable for all involved except the drivers to underpost speed limits (and most interstates are very severely underposted). Local, municipal and/or state coffers get filled with ticket revenue, and insurance companies can and do jack up the premiums of those drivers caught in the trap of being safe OR being legal.
> I am having a hard time understanding how that could be. Perhaps you should read a primer on lobbying organizations and whose interests they serve.
DS
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 19 Aug 2004 01:49 GMT >> Lower injury rate & less expensive claims -> lower rates -> higher >> profits, or so it would seem to me.
>Airbags only significantly reduce injuries and deaths in extremely severe >crashes, and in North America, even this significant reduction is very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >of deceleration is much lower than that experienced in the severe crashes >in which an airbag might be of actual benefit. This is very useful information. I appreicate your providing it.
>The vehicular damage caused *by the airbag deployments alone* can easily >run into many thousands of dollars, _not_ counting whatever vehicular [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >assembly, windshield, side glass, B-pillar and/or door interior panels, >airbags themselves...)
>> Perhaps you could explain, with a specific illustration of a case in >> point, when the IIHS has advocated for something profitable yet unsafe? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >revenue, and insurance companies can and do jack up the premiums of those >drivers caught in the trap of being safe OR being legal. I think most cops understand this issue, and rarely ticket folks 'going with the flow'. Yeah, it sucks to be alone at 0600 on a sunny morning with no traffic in the middle of nowhere and get popped for safe speeding, but there are sooooooooooooooo many dunderheads driving that can't drive safely at posted limits that keeping the speed down may be the lesser of two eeeevils.
>> I am having a hard time understanding how that could be. > >Perhaps you should read a primer on lobbying organizations and whose >interests they serve. Now, dang it, that's just snarky. That kind of attitude limits your ability to effectively convince readers that they should advocate the changes we all need to constrain the red-light-cam crowd, and others 'highway patrol pimps' (riffing on the 'poverty pimp' contractors who reap a fortune from the governments under the false pretense of 'helping' which they perpetuate the problem).
I see your points, and they are good ones. But, if you were straightforward instead of snarky, woul'd encourage more support of your insights.
Flies. Honey. Vinegar.
But, thank you anyway for the insights, even if I think they have a lousy paint job. -- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Brent P - 19 Aug 2004 03:06 GMT > I think most cops understand this issue, and rarely ticket folks 'going > with the flow'. Yeah, it sucks to be alone at 0600 on a sunny morning with > no traffic in the middle of nowhere and get popped for safe speeding, but > there are sooooooooooooooo many dunderheads driving that can't drive safely > at posted limits that keeping the speed down may be the lesser of two > eeeevils. Defining reasonable behavior as a violation of law in an effort to protect the "dunderheads" from themselves is the worst possible thing that can be done. 1) The "dunderheads" don't alter their behavior for the better, if anything they get worse. They are by definition "dunderheads". 2) The people being punished are those who are responsible. 3) The government has a way to take money from the populace. 4) The government is given an inroads to insert themselves where they don't belong, into the lives of responsible citizens who are doing nothing wrong. This is dangerous when we seek to preserve liberty.
I don't see how there is any benefit to underposted speedlimits, only problems.
> Now, dang it, that's just snarky. That kind of attitude limits your > ability to effectively convince readers that they should advocate the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Flies. Honey. Vinegar. Daniel, like myself and many others have been at this for *years*. Needless to say we are all a bit wore out on going over the same stuff again and again. It becomes frustrating and the tolerance for speed kills arguements gets smaller and smaller. Regulars who are very knowledgable in these topics have vanished from usenet from shear fatigue I think.
Arif Khokar - 19 Aug 2004 06:48 GMT > Daniel, like myself and many others have been at this for *years*. Needless > to say we are all a bit wore out on going over the same stuff again and > again. It becomes frustrating and the tolerance for speed kills arguements > gets smaller and smaller. I've noticed that as well. When I discuss the subject on other newsgroups or forums, I inevitably incur the "wrath" of the speed kills crowd. I usually am told that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I'm full of myself, or that I'm a super human driver, etc.
> Regulars who are very knowledgable in these > topics have vanished from usenet from shear fatigue I think. Unfortunately (Jim Walker, Marc, Chuck Tomlinson). I wonder how many of us will still be posting here in 10 years...
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 19 Aug 2004 22:06 GMT >> Daniel, like myself and many others have been at this for *years*. Needless >> to say we are all a bit wore out on going over the same stuff again and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Unfortunately (Jim Walker, Marc, Chuck Tomlinson). I wonder how many of >us will still be posting here in 10 years... I see y'all's point, agree with using science to set public policy. I have also found that informing the few small percent of folks who will read and think is sometimes useful in tipping an issue when it's close. Can't guarantee it, but it works, sometimes.
Then a 'V85' FAQ would seem to be in order, to reduce the aforementioned fatigue. I'd host it and apply public affairs skills to the wordsmithing, if the folks who really understand the issue would outline the salient points.
-- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Brent P - 19 Aug 2004 22:56 GMT > Then a 'V85' FAQ would seem to be in order, to reduce the aforementioned > fatigue. I'd host it and apply public affairs skills to the wordsmithing, > if the folks who really understand the issue would outline the salient > points. I have a list of URLs on the web with good, basic primer information. Designed for that topic along with some more advanced stuff. I made sure each one was from some offical source that could not be attacked. A valid paper from a federal government agency would be considered invalid if it appeared on the website of people who were seen as extreme boy-racers or something. Basically, people attack the messenger when the message cannot be attacked.
Anyway, the typical response I get from a person is 'I've been driving for XX years, I know all there is to know, there's nothing I can learn, it's all wrong, from people who don't live in the real world' etc etc They just dismiss without reading. Some will try to pull bits out of the cites and twist their meaning and that sort of thing instead.
Basically, decades of speed kills crap has convinced most people driving in the USA that their made up version of the rules of the road is correct and the low speed limits are there to keep the idiots (not them, just people who drive faster than they do) to a safe speed. These people generally will admit to driving 10 over, but not a bit more, yet if it's suggested the speed limit be changed to reflect actual speeds they'll argue that people will then go 'too fast' because new speed limit + 10 is faster than they feel safe at.
The 55mph NMSL and all the speed kills nonsense has done so much damage that I don't know if repair will ever be possible so long as the money making interests are there to produce more and more rounds of propoganda, slanted studies with creative definitions of 'speed related' and so forth.
I gave up posting to the bicycle ng I was once a regular in because of how I would be treated everytime I brought up 85th percentile limits, lane displine and traffic safety based on flow rather than speed. Many were anti-car and much of the rest had a fear of faster traffic. As a vehicular bicyclist I had learned that most space conflicts occured when a motorist was blocking someone from passing me. That on roads with speed limits sufficently close to the 85th percentile, this passing traffic wasn't looking to take the space I was using with the bicycle to get around some slow driver in the left lane.
The most recent irrational attack was from somebody in the mustang ng when I presented the list I got the usual, know-it-all response. It was simply pointless. I get the same sort of thing irl too. These people have no trouble driving the same speeds or faster than I do, but oppose increasing the speed limit. I've also had arguements when people, upon finding out I use a bicycle as well go into a rant about those damn bicyclists who won't use the sidewalk.... blah blah. And pointing out their bad driving and ignorance when on the road... that really sets them off.
Anyway, I've nearly left usenet a few times. But I often get bored at work or TV sucks, what have you... so I end up posting again.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 22 Aug 2004 09:48 GMT I've also had arguements when
> people, upon finding out I use a bicycle as well go into a rant about > those damn bicyclists who won't use the sidewalk I don't mind bicyclists on the road as long as they:
1) Don't pedal right through a stop sign without stopping, or a red light. 2) Don't ride from the center of the street into the crosswalk then back into the center of the street at an intersection. 3) Don't pedal the wrong way down a bike lane that's clearly marked with arrows indicating the correct direction of traffic (nearly pasted some guy today doing that) 4) Don't ride 10 blocks up the busiest arterial in the city when there's a neighborhood street that runs parallel the entire 10 blocks that's a block over. 5) Don't ride around on city streets without a helmet 6) Have rear view mirrors on their bicycle if riding in city streets 7) Wear clothing with reflectors after dark and use a battery operated head and tail light after dark. 8) Use the correct arm signals when preparing to turn. 9) Support a requirement that all bicycles operated on main arterial roads (ie: roads posted at 35Mph or above, not neighborhood streets) carry a license plate. 10) Pass the written driving test that is used for licensing drivers in the state they reside in.
Frankly I see all 10 of the above constantly violated every day I drive to work. And what is worse is sometimes this isn't just 1 bicyclist but a group of them. I'm not talking about 10 year old kids on their BMX bikes doing this, I'm talking 35 year olds riding 10-15 speed $1000 bicycles in the middle of the city.
And do the cops even bother going after them? Of course not, without a license plate the bicyclist just ducks down an alley and he's gone, and the cops can't do anything.
Ted
Matt Whiting - 22 Aug 2004 14:15 GMT > I've also had arguements when > >>people, upon finding out I use a bicycle as well go into a rant about >>those damn bicyclists who won't use the sidewalk > > I don't mind bicyclists on the road as long as they: You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads built in the US.
Matt
Matthew Russotto - 23 Aug 2004 01:36 GMT >You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it >was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads >built in the US. There were roads in the US before bicycles. Heck, there were roads in the area know known as the US before there was a US.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 02:58 GMT >>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it >>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads >>built in the US. > > There were roads in the US before bicycles. Heck, there were roads in > the area know known as the US before there was a US. Not smoothly paved for use by mechanical wheeled vehicles that weren't pulled by an animal.
Matthew Russotto - 23 Aug 2004 15:18 GMT >>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it >>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Not smoothly paved for use by mechanical wheeled vehicles that weren't >pulled by an animal. National Pike was paved in macadam in 1830, fifty years before the founding of the League of American Wheelmen. Use of asphalt for roads in the US dates back to 1872.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 15:34 GMT >>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it >>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > founding of the League of American Wheelmen. Use of asphalt for roads > in the US dates back to 1872. That's nice. But the first movement to get smoothly paved roads was by bicyclists. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.
Matthew Russotto - 23 Aug 2004 15:58 GMT >>>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it >>>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >That's nice. But the first movement to get smoothly paved roads >was by bicyclists. You may not like that, but that's the way it is. That's bicyclist propaganda. Roads were paved -- and smoothly paved, as well -- before bicyclist advocacy for such started. SOMEONE was surely pushing for them earlier, or they never would have gotten built.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 16:49 GMT >>>>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it >>>>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > surely pushing for them earlier, or they never would have gotten > built. You have one road that somebody made and only your word for that. Hardly a movement.
Bernard Farquart - 23 Aug 2004 17:25 GMT Did the Romans have bicycles?
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 17:30 GMT > Did the Romans have bicycles? Good question. Brent?
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 18:59 GMT >> Did the Romans have bicycles? > > Good question. Brent? What difference does it make? roman roads weren't suitable for use by bicycle and are not of the kind being discussed. Roads consisting of stones layed next to each other does not make for a good bicycling surface. In fact, if you want to discourage bicycling, which seems to be the point everytime somebody brings this up, I suggest using Roman road building technology.
If you people are going to argue this stuff at least get out of your cars and on two wheels for a bit to get some basic understanding.
Images of roman roads: http://www.bible-history.com/geography/images/appian-way.jpg http://www.highways.gov.uk/images/history_roads.gif http://www.streetworks.fsnet.co.uk/roman/romanroads.htm
But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to say:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/rw93.htm Highway Existence: -- 100 Years and Beyond A peaceful campaign of progress and reform: The Federal Highway Administration at 100 "In the second half of the 19th century, the railroads dominated interstate travel, and the limited pre-railroad network of roads fell into neglect. In the 1880s, however, the growing popularity of a new mode of transportation, the "ordinary" bicycle -- the type with the large front wheel -- was the first sign of change." <...> "The biggest problem was that, outside the cities, the nation's bad roads made bicycling a laborious, dangerous process. As one contemporary slogan put it, the roads were, "Wholly unclassable, almost impassable, scarcely jackassable!" The Good Roads Movement was a response to this problem. Bicycle groups, led by the League of American Wheelmen (L.A.W.), and manufacturers, led by Col. Albert Pope, worked at the federal, state, and local level to secure road improvement legislation."
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/bicycle.htm
"The problem was that roads outside cities were in terrible shape ("hardly jackassable" in one common phrase of the day). Since the advent of the railroad in the 1830's, roads had devolved to the lowest levels of government (counties and townships) that had the least incentive and resources to improve them. Bicyclists and their national, State, and local organizations became the earliest agitators for good roads. Even before farmers. The bicycle interests were responsible for many State road improvement laws, and also deserve much of the credit for convincing Congress in 1893 to authorize the U.S. Office of Road Inquiry in the Department of Agriculture, with a $10,000 budget a mission of education and encouragement. (That Agency evolved into the Federal Highway Administration.) So the bicycle craze led to the good roads revolution and encouraged it (in cooperation with farming and railroad interests) during the last decade of the 19th century."
"The bicycle craze also contributed to the Automobile Era. Tinkering with a variety of early horseless carriages resulted in the development of the internal-combustion powered automobile in the mid-1880's in Europe. The first gasoline-powered automobile in the United States was built in 1893 and was operated in Springfield, Massachusetts, just a few weeks before the Office of Road Inquiry went into operation. The automobile would soon supplant the bicycle in the public's affections; what had seemed like a revolution in 1890 had become an artifact of an earlier era by 1905. The automobile interests took over the Good Roads Movement."
I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people want to seek out everything possible to remove bicyclists from the road and will even deny history to that goal. Totally irrational, but that's what anti-bicycling people are, irrational. Get stuck behind some driver doing 5mph slower than you want to go for 5 miles, no problem. Have to slow by 5mph for 5 seconds to time a pass of a bicyclist, that's way too much to ask.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 19:08 GMT > >> Did the Romans have bicycles?
> > Good question. Brent?
> What difference does it make? To me? None.
> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to > say: Well, the FHWA is known for saying stuff that ain't true. Stuff like "We need very high levels of upward light from car headlights, otherwise overhead road signs are invisible. Headlights without high levels of uplight work fine in Europe because all overhead signs in Europe are self-illuminated."
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 19:44 GMT >> >> Did the Romans have bicycles? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > To me? None. You want to hear answers to questions you don't care about?
>> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to >> say: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > uplight work fine in Europe because all overhead signs in Europe are > self-illuminated." This is a little more important to them, the history of how they came into existance.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 20:23 GMT > >> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to > >> say: > > > > Well, the FHWA is known for saying stuff that ain't true.
> This is a little more important to them, the history of how they came > into existance. H'm. I'm not sure I agree that the FHWA considers events of a century ago "more important" than current laws and regulations.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 20:26 GMT >> >> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to >> >> say: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > H'm. I'm not sure I agree that the FHWA considers events of a century ago > "more important" than current laws and regulations. Be totally humorless if you must.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 20:34 GMT > >> > Well, the FHWA is known for saying stuff that ain't true.
> >> This is a little more important to them, the history of how they came > >> into existance.
> > H'm. I'm not sure I agree that the FHWA considers events of a century > > ago "more important" than current laws and regulations.
> Be totally humorless if you must. Well, c'mon, whaddya expect? It's Monday and I haven't ridden my bike yet today.
Matt Whiting - 23 Aug 2004 22:33 GMT >>>Did the Romans have bicycles? >> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > to slow by 5mph for 5 seconds to time a pass of a bicyclist, that's way > too much to ask. Now you've done it. Confused Russotto with the facts. This could get ugly!
Matt
Matthew Russotto - 24 Aug 2004 16:20 GMT >> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that >> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people [...]
>Now you've done it. Confused Russotto with the facts. This could get ugly! His own article refutes the claim that the bicyclists were the _first_ to push for paved roads.
doc - 23 Aug 2004 23:19 GMT > I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that > followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to slow by 5mph for 5 seconds to time a pass of a bicyclist, that's way > too much to ask. Bicycles are fine, motorcycles are better, and automobiles are the current pinnacle of the evolution.
As in any evolution, there was nothing "wrong" with the progenitor; it just didn't do the job as well its successors.
Bicycles are wonderful as individual transportation in a flat, calm world. They're somewhat less than wonderful for mass transportation in a world with hills and changing weather. They have their place, but that place is very restricted. The horse is a better alternative for those who have to concern themselves with more than just themselves. The automobile is even better.
doc
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 23:58 GMT >> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that >> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > As in any evolution, there was nothing "wrong" with the progenitor; it just > didn't do the job as well its successors. Depends on the 'job'. There are alot of places today where the bicycle still does the job better.
> Bicycles are wonderful as individual transportation in a flat, calm world. > They're somewhat less than wonderful for mass transportation in a world > with hills and changing weather. They have their place, but that place is > very restricted. The horse is a better alternative for those who have to > concern themselves with more than just themselves. The automobile is even > better. Trying to spin the bicycle into being selfish? That's a difficult spin job to say the least. Passing a bicyclist is easy, being stuck behind some old fart in a large buick is orders of magnitude more difficult to deal with.
doc - 24 Aug 2004 06:14 GMT > >> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that > >> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Trying to spin the bicycle into being selfish? That's a difficult spin > job to say the least. Not really, especially when we're talking about a bicycle built for two. Ever try one? There's a damn good reason why bicyclists tend to be self-centered.
> Passing a bicyclist is easy, being stuck behind > some old fart in a large buick is orders of magnitude more difficult to > deal with. Passing a bicyclist who insists on doing 15 mph in a 40 mph zone while traffic backs up behind her isn't as easy as you'd like us to believe. Even the old farts in their Buicks do at least 30.
Since 'Jurassic Park' we've all been fascinated by dinosaurs, but not by pedal-motioned individualists who think they have the answer to all life's ills.
Selfish? Damn right.
A bicyclist uses far more energy and generates much more carbon-dioxide than a car driver does for the same mph. And that's on flat roads.
doc
Brent P - 24 Aug 2004 06:42 GMT > Passing a bicyclist who insists on doing 15 mph in a 40 mph zone while > traffic backs up behind her isn't as easy as you'd like us to believe. Even > the old farts in their Buicks do at least 30. I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist. All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who didn't know how to drive and deal with the situation. Or a motorist who wasn't paying attention and didn't notice the bicyclist until he was right up on him and then had to slow to the bicyclist's speed. I notice bicyclists well ahead of time, they are quite obvious in traffic and easy to get around. As far as the old fart, he'll delay you alot longer, because it's going to take a hell of alot longer to get around him. Automobiles are much more effective at blocking up a roadway than a bicycle.
> Since 'Jurassic Park' we've all been fascinated by dinosaurs, but not by > pedal-motioned individualists who think they have the answer to all life's > ills. > Selfish? Damn right. Because some drivers don't know how to operate their vehicle in traffic you blame the bicyclist. Classic american response. Go after the bicyclist instead of the root cause problem of stupid drivers who cannot judge traffic or be bothered to pay attention to the world around them.
But of course, the guy in the old car, or any driver of any vehicle who can't even make a turn at a speed greater than 2.5mph, that's not even a bother for you. Doesn't even register.
> A bicyclist uses far more energy and generates much more carbon-dioxide > than a car driver does for the same mph. And that's on flat roads. CITE? I don't think I can expel anywhere near the volume of even the smallest engine of my 3 cars (2.0L), let alone the largest (4.6L).
If I wanted to be 'selfish' and block the road, I would drive 5-10mph below the posted speed limit or a good 10-30mph below the flow. There is no way one can block traffic that good on a bicycle at any speed.
Matthew Russotto - 24 Aug 2004 16:33 GMT >I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist. >All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who >didn't know how to drive and deal with the situation. Probably they were afraid of getting their fender slapped when passing the bicyclist in the room available given opposing traffic and the bicyclists distance from the shoulder.
>As far as the old fart, he'll delay you alot longer, because it's going >to take a hell of alot longer to get around him. The old fart is predictable. I can blow his doors off before he even knows what happened. The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling back and forth within the lane, is not predictable.
>Automobiles are much >more effective at blocking up a roadway than a bicycle. Sure, if the goal is blocking. But a slow and wobbly bike rider can be harder to pass than a merely slow old fart.
Brent P - 24 Aug 2004 20:29 GMT >>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist. >>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the bicyclist in the room available given opposing traffic and the > bicyclists distance from the shoulder. LAME.
>>As far as the old fart, he'll delay you alot longer, because it's going >>to take a hell of alot longer to get around him.
> The old fart is predictable. I can blow his doors off before he even > knows what happened. The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling > back and forth within the lane, is not predictable. Legally riding bicyclists don't do that. But you already knew that.
>>Automobiles are much >>more effective at blocking up a roadway than a bicycle.
> Sure, if the goal is blocking. But a slow and wobbly bike rider can > be harder to pass than a merely slow old fart. I've never had a problem passing anyone who rides the way I do. EVER.
Matthew Russotto - 25 Aug 2004 15:02 GMT >>>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist. >>>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >LAME. Yes, timid motorists ARE lame.
>> The old fart is predictable. I can blow his doors off before he even >> knows what happened. The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling >> back and forth within the lane, is not predictable. > >Legally riding bicyclists don't do that. But you already knew that. Legally riding bicyclists are rare enough to be of no consequence.
Brent P - 25 Aug 2004 15:47 GMT >>>>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist. >>>>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yes, timid motorists ARE lame. No your tired attack. The people who get their vehicle sheet metal wacked are so close they are about to hit the bicyclist.
>>> The old fart is predictable. I can blow his doors off before he even >>> knows what happened. The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling >>> back and forth within the lane, is not predictable.
>>Legally riding bicyclists don't do that. But you already knew that.
> Legally riding bicyclists are rare enough to be of no consequence. Of the ones actually using the road, they are the majority in my experience. It's not my fault motorists haven't learned to drive.
Bill Putney - 26 Aug 2004 02:50 GMT > > Legally riding bicyclists are rare enough to be of no consequence. > > Of the ones actually using the road, they are the majority in my > experience. It's not my fault motorists haven't learned to drive. Yes it is, Brent. We blame you personally.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Bill Putney - 24 Aug 2004 11:20 GMT > > Trying to spin the bicycle into being selfish? That's a difficult spin > > job to say the least. > > Not really, especially when we're talking about a bicycle built for two. > Ever try one? Oh, I don't know - there can be selfish motivations for using a bicycle built for two ("It takes two to tango"). 8^)
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Matt Whiting - 24 Aug 2004 22:13 GMT > A bicyclist uses far more energy and generates much more carbon-dioxide > than a car driver does for the same mph. And that's on flat roads. I'd like to see your source of data on this claim.
Matt
Matt Whiting - 24 Aug 2004 01:38 GMT >>I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that >>followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Bicycles are fine, motorcycles are better, and automobiles are the current > pinnacle of the evolution. I guess it depends on your mission and what you are trying to optimize. Personally, I see the mission for each being different. Having owned all three simultaneously, I don't consider one to be an evolution of the other, but rather separate solutions to separate problems. The bicycle is about the most efficient means to transport a human from point A to point B. And it has the advantage of helping keep the human physically fit at the same time. As you say though, protection from the elements is sadly lacking!
A motorcycle has some of the benefits of a bike such as leaning into corners as God intended (this includes airplanes as well), being able to feel the wind and smell the roses, but with much greater speed and a little better protection from the elements, at least on a touring bike.
A car trades the fun and health benefits of a bike and motorcycle for protection from the elements. However, you sacrifice a lot of efficiency for this convenience. So, it may be evolution in comfort, but "devolution" in efficiency.
> As in any evolution, there was nothing "wrong" with the progenitor; it just > didn't do the job as well its successors. But a bicycle does some aspects of job much better than a car, ditto a motorcycle. So I don't consider this an evolutionary chain.
Matt
Bill Putney - 30 Aug 2004 01:33 GMT > A motorcycle has some of the benefits of a bike such as leaning into > corners as God intended (this includes airplanes as well)... Speaking of evolutionary technological developments, leaning into corners, and airplanes, a few years ago when I was either reading a book on the Wright bros., touring Wright-Patterson Air Field, or the WB Museum at Kitty Hawk, I learned that it was a huge breakthru in the development of manned flight when someone realized that an airplane needed to be banked into turns rather than just steered (as in yaw with no roll). Prior unsuccessful attempts at manned flight had failed largely because would-be developers were trying to immitate the steering of a ship (i.e., yaw with no banking). Someone finally realized that maybe they needed to introduce roll into the equation. Can't recall if the Wright Bros. were the ones who first realized that or not - I'm thinking it was someone else.
File that under "Things Mama didn't tell me." 8^)
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Matt Whiting - 30 Aug 2004 21:36 GMT >>A motorcycle has some of the benefits of a bike such as leaning into >>corners as God intended (this includes airplanes as well)... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the Wright Bros. were the ones who first realized that or not - I'm > thinking it was someone else. Well, birds figured it out a long time before the Wright Bros.! :-)
Matt
Dori A Schmetterling - 23 Aug 2004 17:32 GMT No, but rutted roads.
:-) DAS
 Signature For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
> Did the Romans have bicycles? Bernard Farquart - 23 Aug 2004 18:41 GMT > No, but rutted roads. So they only had mountain bikes then?
Bernard
Matt Whiting - 23 Aug 2004 22:31 GMT > Did the Romans have bicycles? I don't know, but I do know that there roads were anything but smooth!
Matt
John David Galt - 24 Aug 2004 02:04 GMT > You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it > was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads > built in the US. When did they pay gas taxes or registration fees to fund road building?
Followups narrowed for relevance.
Brent P - 22 Aug 2004 17:48 GMT > I don't mind bicyclists on the road as long as they: I'll insert driver behaviors when I follow the rules of the road.
> 1) Don't pedal right through a stop sign without stopping, or a red light. Drivers attempt to pass just before the stop sign. This results in the driving being in the oncoming lane at the sign or cutting off the bicyclist and slamming on the brakes. Some drivers also refuse to wait their turn behind a bicyclist or even recognize that the bicyclist gets a turn.
> 2) Don't ride from the center of the street into the crosswalk then back > into the center of the street at an intersection. Drivers who get angry when there is a bicyclist in the queue ahead of them. The speed of traffic is 'stopped' but they get pissed simply because a bicyclist is in the center of the lane and not giving up his place in the queue to motorists.
> 3) Don't pedal the wrong way down a bike lane that's clearly marked with > arrows indicating the correct direction of traffic (nearly pasted some guy > today doing that) Drivers who think that because a bicycle lane exists that the bicyclists must remain in this prison.
> 4) Don't ride 10 blocks up the busiest arterial in the city when there's a > neighborhood street that runs parallel the entire 10 blocks that's a block > over. Drivers who decide to build subdivisons with dead ends and non-gridded streets and then get pissed off when bicyclists have to use the arterials. Bicyclists do not ride arterials for sh.ts and giggles. A bicyclist may not know your area as well as you do. He cannot count on subdivision streets going through and may not have the time to add 5 miles to his journey if it turns out they don't.
> 5) Don't ride around on city streets without a helmet Drivers who think that because a bicyclist isn't wearing a foam hat that means they can do whatever they like to that bicyclist. What difference does a foam hat make to you? The foam hat has very debatable safety results. They are only good for falling over AT BEST. I have found, that those who demand bicyclists wear helmets fall into the following catagories.
1) Busy bodies who think they know everything and want to tell other people what they should do for their own 'safety'. 2) People who want to discourage bicycling. 3) People who want to force others to be like them. 4) Motorists who want bicyclists to wear helmets so they (the motorists) won't feel bad when they run a bicyclist down.
> 6) Have rear view mirrors on their bicycle if riding in city streets Driver's who don't use their mirrors for anything more than make-up. BTW, mirrors are a convience but aren't needed. Hearing and the lack of blind spots with head checks makes them un-needed. Sounds like you want to up the equipment requirements to discourage bicycling.
> 7) Wear clothing with reflectors after dark and use a battery operated head > and tail light after dark. Motorists who don't bother to replace the bulbs in their vehicle's lighting system. BTW, generator powered lights are much brighter.
> 8) Use the correct arm signals when preparing to turn. Motorists who dhon't understand what an arm signal means.
> 9) Support a requirement that all bicycles operated on main arterial roads > (ie: roads posted at 35Mph or above, not neighborhood streets) carry a > license plate. Motorists who drive around with expired plates and haven't bothered to get the new plates that completed distribution 2 years ago on their car.
And now your anti-cycling idea is clear. Again, bicyclists don't ride arterials for sh.ts and giggles. They aren't fun to ride for the most part. Drivers built the neighborhoods to discouarge drivers from using neighborhood streets. That means bicyclists can't as well.
> 10) Pass the written driving test that is used for licensing drivers in the > state they reside in. Something like 99.9% of adult bicyclists have a drivers license. The bad bicyclists you see are the *SAME* motorists I mention above. In fact, I think if you used a bicyclist, you'd be one of the bad ones. Because you seem to think that the bicyclist doesn't belong on the road unless he meets some assinine criteria, like wearing a foam hat. My guess is you'd follow the stay-out-of-the-way-of-cars style, which is highly illegal and requires all the bad riding you mention plust alot more.
> Frankly I see all 10 of the above constantly violated every day I drive to > work. And what is worse is sometimes this isn't just 1 bicyclist but a > group of them. Replace bicyclist with motorist and that's what I see everytime I use a road with *ANY* vehicle.
> And do the cops even bother going after them? Of course not, without a > license plate the bicyclist just ducks down an alley and he's gone, > and the cops can't do anything. With a car and a license plate the cop doesn't give a sh.t. Oh, BTW, I've been harrassed by anti-bicyclist cops more than once who told me I couldn't even use the roadway when I was riding legally. So, they can do something if they are motivated to. (They expected me to ride on the pavement right of the white edge line, which was about as wide as my bicycle tire)
Daniel J. Stern - 19 Aug 2004 03:22 GMT >> Airbags only significantly reduce injuries and deaths in extremely >> severe crashes, and in North America, even this significant reduction [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> experienced in the severe crashes in which an airbag might be of actual >> benefit.
> This is very useful information. I appreicate your providing it. The best airbag implementation in the world is Australia's. A close second place goes to the international ECE implementation used throughout much of the world outside North America.
> >Interstate highway speed limits NOT posted in accordance with the > >85th-percentile principle, which has been repeatedly and robustly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I think most cops understand this issue That's highly localized, but the point is that the IIHS fervently supports underposted speed limits combined with increased enforcement. IIHS donates radar and laser guns to police departments, lobbies against V85-based speed limits, and so forth -- and that is directly responsive to your request for an example of how IIHS says/does things that benefit their supporting industry's coffers more than the general good.
> there are sooooooooooooooo many dunderheads driving that can't drive > safely at posted limits that keeping the speed down may be the lesser of > two eeeevils. Go back and re-read what was written. V85-based speed limits are known and shown to yield the lowest number of injuries and deaths. They do not bar the dunderheads from the roads when they do these studies! Those results are WITH THE DUNDERHEADS INCLUDED.
> >> I am having a hard time understanding how that could be.
> >Perhaps you should read a primer on lobbying organizations and whose > >interests they serve.
> Now, dang it, that's just snarky. Snarky, yes, but also deserved. I do not sugar-coat.
-DS
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 26 Aug 2004 17:09 GMT >>> Editor, Chrysler web pages >>> Intellichoice.Com [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>> Portland, ORegon >>> cc: USENET's alt.autos,rec.auto.makers.chrysler Intellichoice still has not fixed the incorrect data, even though a rep admitted it to me over the phone last week.
Also, the 'respond-to' e-mail address on their page was broken.
Freedom is Slavery Intellichoice is Dumb
-- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 26 Aug 2004 22:56 GMT <a protracted buncha stuff about some website>
Say, John...
I know you're probably going to think me snarky for pointing this out, but...
...y'know how nobody's engaging you on the matter of this Intellichoice website and its alleged errors?
It's because nobody cares. There's so much information out there on the internet that most of us don't go on sysiphean missions to correct every perceived instance of incorrect reporting. We simply find more dependable sources of information.
Don't get me wrong; you've every right to post whatever you please, but nobody cares that you feel Intellichoice got a fact wrong.
Arthur Alspector - 27 Aug 2004 05:14 GMT "SYSIPHEAN?? wow! You are just so...so.....intellichoice : )
> <a protracted buncha stuff about some website> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Don't get me wrong; you've every right to post whatever you please, but > nobody cares that you feel Intellichoice got a fact wrong. yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 07 Sep 2004 21:45 GMT ><a protracted buncha stuff about some website> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >...y'know how nobody's engaging you on the matter of this Intellichoice >website and its alleged errors? I didn't expect you to. You've got better things (sincerely, no snark from me) to do than to respond to this issue.
>It's because nobody cares. There's so much information out there on the >internet that most of us don't go on sysiphean missions to correct every >perceived instance of incorrect reporting. We simply find more dependable >sources of information. And, here's another data point to explain that Intellichoice is less reliable than other sites.
>Don't get me wrong; you've every right to post whatever you please, but >nobody cares that you feel Intellichoice got a fact wrong. Aha; perhaps none of the highly skilled and knowledgable autogurus here have time to invest in this, but when another Joe Schmoe like me wants to know about the trustworthiness of sites like this and Group-Googles <groups.google.com> under rec.autos for "Intellichoice', this may pop up.
Or, you could indict me for excessive optimism without a license.
-- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 16 Aug 2004 20:22 GMT Well, the e-mail address bouncers, the webmaster address bounces and the postmaster address bounces. Guess Intellichoice ain't much interested in hearing about problems with the accuracy of their data.
Readers, beware.
>Editor, Chrysler web pages >Intellichoice.Com [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >-- >Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT. -- John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA. Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
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