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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / September 2004

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Likely error at Intellichoice re: Chrysler P/T Cruiser Safety Feature

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Please invert everything left of the @ to reply - 16 Aug 2004 04:09 GMT
Editor, Chrysler web pages
Intellichoice.Com

Dear Sir or Madam:

Your web page describing the P/T Cruiser
http://www.intellichoice.com/reports/vehicleReport.cfm/vehicle_nmb/100021082
stated in part:
"For added safety, all four PT Cruisers include side impact air bags,
anti-lock brakes with traction control, child seat anchor system, and child
safety locks."

This seems to be contradicted by the Safety web page for the P/T at
Chrysler.com
http://www.chrysler.com/pt_cruiser/features/safety/index.html?context=pt_cruiser
-index&type=left

which states:
"The available supplemental side air bags* (standard on '04 PT Cruiser
Limited, Platinum Series, GT, Dream Cruiser Series 3, and '05 PT Cruiser
Convertible GT) for front occupants offer additional protection for driver
and front-outboard passenger in the event of a collision."
That suggests the Base model does not include the Supplemental Air Bags.

I look forward to your response.

Sincerely yours,

John Bartley
Portland, ORegon
cc: USENET's alt.autos,rec.auto.makers.chrysler

--
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 16 Aug 2004 19:05 GMT
Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without*
side airbags while they're still available.

> Editor, Chrysler web pages
> Intellichoice.Com
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> --
> Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 16 Aug 2004 20:21 GMT
>> Editor, Chrysler web pages
>> Intellichoice.Com
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>> Portland, ORegon
>> cc: USENET's alt.autos,rec.auto.makers.chrysler

>Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without*
>side airbags while they're still available.

Why not improve the safety of the vehicle? The IIHS says they are an
improvement.

>> Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.

--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 16 Aug 2004 20:30 GMT
> >Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without*
> >side airbags while they're still available.

> Why not improve the safety of the vehicle?

Indeed, vehicle safety benefits are good -- when they're real, significant
and not accompanied by safety *disbenefits*. Airbags as implemented in
North America flunk the "significant" test and the "not accompanied by
safety disbenefits" test, so the "real" test is a moot point.

> The IIHS says they are an
> improvement.

The IIHS says lots of things. Some of them are probably motivated by
purehearted desire to reduce traffic-related injuries, but many of them
are demonstrably motivated by desire to increase profits for their founder
and sponsor, the auto insurance industry. IIHS: Insurance is their first
name; Safety is their last.
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 17 Aug 2004 23:22 GMT
>> >Thanks for posting this; it's a good reminder to snap-up cars *without*
>> >side airbags while they're still available.

>> Why not improve the safety of the vehicle?

>Indeed, vehicle safety benefits are good -- when they're real, significant
>and not accompanied by safety *disbenefits*. Airbags as implemented in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>and sponsor, the auto insurance industry. IIHS: Insurance is their first
>name; Safety is their last.

Lower injury rate & less expensive claims -> lower rates -> higher profits,
or so it would seem to me.  Perhaps you could explain, with a specific
illustration of a case in point, when the IIHS has advocated for something
profitable yet unsafe? I am having a hard time understanding how that could
be.

Thank you, in advance, for your response.

--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 18 Aug 2004 00:51 GMT
> Lower injury rate & less expensive claims -> lower rates -> higher
> profits, or so it would seem to me.

Airbags only significantly reduce injuries and deaths in extremely severe
crashes, and in North America, even this significant reduction is very
small -- it is dragged down by the injuries US-spec airbags inflict due
to the requirement of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 208 that
bags be calibrated to "save" an UNbelted 50th-percentile size/weight
"male" dummy. In order to meet this requirement, the deployment threshhold
of deceleration is much lower than that experienced in the severe crashes
in which an airbag might be of actual benefit.

The vehicular damage caused *by the airbag deployments alone* can easily
run into many thousands of dollars, _not_ counting whatever vehicular
damage is caused by whatever is hit. Vehicles are frequently written off
(totalled) with relatively very minor collision damage, because of the
extensive damage caused by the airbags going off. (complete dashboard
assembly, windshield, side glass, B-pillar and/or door interior panels,
airbags themselves...)

> Perhaps you could explain, with a specific illustration of a case in
> point, when the IIHS has advocated for something profitable yet unsafe?

Interstate highway speed limits NOT posted in accordance with the
85th-percentile principle, which has been repeatedly and robustly
demonstrated for many decades to result in the lowest number of crashes
and injuries. It is far more profitable for all involved except the
drivers to underpost speed limits (and most interstates are very severely
underposted). Local, municipal and/or state coffers get filled with ticket
revenue, and insurance companies can and do jack up the premiums of those
drivers caught in the trap of being safe OR being legal.

> I am having a hard time understanding how that could be.

Perhaps you should read a primer on lobbying organizations and whose
interests they serve.

DS
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 19 Aug 2004 01:49 GMT
>> Lower injury rate & less expensive claims -> lower rates -> higher
>> profits, or so it would seem to me.

>Airbags only significantly reduce injuries and deaths in extremely severe
>crashes, and in North America, even this significant reduction is very
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>of deceleration is much lower than that experienced in the severe crashes
>in which an airbag might be of actual benefit.

This is very useful information. I appreicate your providing it.

>The vehicular damage caused *by the airbag deployments alone* can easily
>run into many thousands of dollars, _not_ counting whatever vehicular
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>assembly, windshield, side glass, B-pillar and/or door interior panels,
>airbags themselves...)

>> Perhaps you could explain, with a specific illustration of a case in
>> point, when the IIHS has advocated for something profitable yet unsafe?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>revenue, and insurance companies can and do jack up the premiums of those
>drivers caught in the trap of being safe OR being legal.

I think most cops understand this issue, and rarely ticket folks 'going
with the flow'. Yeah, it sucks to be alone at 0600 on a sunny morning with
no traffic in the middle of nowhere and get popped for safe speeding, but
there are sooooooooooooooo many dunderheads driving that can't drive safely
at posted limits that keeping the speed down may be the lesser of two
eeeevils.

>> I am having a hard time understanding how that could be.
>
>Perhaps you should read a primer on lobbying organizations and whose
>interests they serve.

Now, dang it, that's just snarky.  That kind of attitude limits your
ability to effectively convince readers that they should advocate the
changes we all need to constrain the red-light-cam crowd, and others
'highway patrol pimps' (riffing on the 'poverty pimp' contractors who reap
a fortune from the governments under the false pretense of 'helping' which
they perpetuate the problem).

I see your points, and they are good ones. But, if you were straightforward
instead of snarky, woul'd encourage more support of your insights.

Flies. Honey. Vinegar.

But, thank you anyway for the insights, even if I think they have a lousy
paint job.
--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Brent P - 19 Aug 2004 03:06 GMT
> I think most cops understand this issue, and rarely ticket folks 'going
> with the flow'. Yeah, it sucks to be alone at 0600 on a sunny morning with
> no traffic in the middle of nowhere and get popped for safe speeding, but
> there are sooooooooooooooo many dunderheads driving that can't drive safely
> at posted limits that keeping the speed down may be the lesser of two
> eeeevils.

Defining reasonable behavior as a violation of law in an effort to
protect the "dunderheads" from themselves is the worst possible thing
that can be done. 1) The "dunderheads" don't alter their behavior for
the better, if anything they get worse. They are by definition
"dunderheads". 2) The people being punished are those who are responsible.
3) The government has a way to take money from the populace. 4) The
government is given an inroads to insert themselves where they don't
belong, into the lives of responsible citizens who are doing nothing
wrong. This is dangerous when we seek to preserve liberty.

I don't see how there is any benefit to underposted speedlimits, only
problems.

> Now, dang it, that's just snarky.  That kind of attitude limits your
> ability to effectively convince readers that they should advocate the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Flies. Honey. Vinegar.

Daniel, like myself and many others have been at this for *years*. Needless
to say we are all a bit wore out on going over the same stuff again and
again. It becomes frustrating and the tolerance for speed kills arguements
gets smaller and smaller. Regulars who are very knowledgable in these
topics have vanished from usenet from shear fatigue I think.
Arif Khokar - 19 Aug 2004 06:48 GMT
> Daniel, like myself and many others have been at this for *years*. Needless
> to say we are all a bit wore out on going over the same stuff again and
> again. It becomes frustrating and the tolerance for speed kills arguements
> gets smaller and smaller.

I've noticed that as well.  When I discuss the subject on other
newsgroups or forums, I inevitably incur the "wrath" of the speed kills
crowd.  I usually am told that I don't know what I'm talking about, or
that I'm full of myself, or that I'm a super human driver, etc.

> Regulars who are very knowledgable in these
> topics have vanished from usenet from shear fatigue I think.

Unfortunately (Jim Walker, Marc, Chuck Tomlinson).  I wonder how many of
us will still be posting here in 10 years...
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 19 Aug 2004 22:06 GMT
>> Daniel, like myself and many others have been at this for *years*. Needless
>> to say we are all a bit wore out on going over the same stuff again and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Unfortunately (Jim Walker, Marc, Chuck Tomlinson).  I wonder how many of
>us will still be posting here in 10 years...

I see y'all's point, agree with using science to set public policy. I have
also found that informing the few small percent of folks who will read and
think is sometimes useful in tipping an issue when it's close. Can't
guarantee it, but it works, sometimes.

Then a 'V85' FAQ would seem to be in order, to reduce the aforementioned
fatigue.   I'd host it and apply public affairs skills to the wordsmithing,
if the folks who really understand the issue would outline the salient
points.

--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Brent P - 19 Aug 2004 22:56 GMT
> Then a 'V85' FAQ would seem to be in order, to reduce the aforementioned
> fatigue.   I'd host it and apply public affairs skills to the wordsmithing,
> if the folks who really understand the issue would outline the salient
> points.

I have a list of URLs on the web with good, basic primer information.
Designed for that topic along with some more advanced stuff. I made
sure each one was from some offical source that could not be attacked.
A valid paper from a federal government agency would be considered
invalid if it appeared on the website of people who were seen as extreme
boy-racers or something. Basically, people attack the messenger when
the message cannot be attacked.

Anyway, the typical response I get from a person is 'I've been driving
for XX years, I know all there is to know, there's nothing I can learn,
it's all wrong, from people who don't live in the real world' etc etc
They just dismiss without reading. Some will try to pull bits out
of the cites and twist their meaning and that sort of thing instead.

Basically, decades of speed kills crap has convinced most people driving
in the USA that their made up version of the rules of the road is correct
and the low speed limits are there to keep the idiots (not them, just
people who drive faster than they do) to a safe speed. These people
generally will admit to driving 10 over, but not a bit more, yet if
it's suggested the speed limit be changed to reflect actual speeds they'll
argue that people will then go 'too fast' because new speed limit + 10
is faster than they feel safe at.

The 55mph NMSL and all the speed kills nonsense has done so much damage
that I don't know if repair will ever be possible so long as the money
making interests are there to produce more and more rounds of propoganda,
slanted studies with creative definitions of 'speed related' and so
forth.

I gave up posting to the bicycle ng I was once a regular in because
of how I would be treated everytime I brought up 85th percentile limits,
lane displine and traffic safety based on flow rather than speed. Many
were anti-car and much of the rest had a fear of faster traffic. As
a vehicular bicyclist I had learned that most space conflicts occured
when a motorist was blocking someone from passing me. That on roads
with speed limits sufficently close to the 85th percentile, this
passing traffic wasn't looking to take the space I was using with
the bicycle to get around some slow driver in the left lane.

The most recent irrational attack was from somebody in the mustang
ng when I presented the list I got the usual, know-it-all response.
It was simply pointless. I get the same sort of thing irl too. These
people have no trouble driving the same speeds or faster than I do,
but oppose increasing the speed limit. I've also had arguements when
people, upon finding out I use a bicycle as well go into a rant about
those damn bicyclists who won't use the sidewalk.... blah blah. And
pointing out their bad driving and ignorance when on the road... that
really sets them off.

Anyway, I've nearly left usenet a few times. But I often get bored
at work or TV sucks, what have you... so I end up posting again.


Ted Mittelstaedt - 22 Aug 2004 09:48 GMT
I've also had arguements when
> people, upon finding out I use a bicycle as well go into a rant about
> those damn bicyclists who won't use the sidewalk

I don't mind bicyclists on the road as long as they:

1) Don't pedal right through a stop sign without stopping, or a red light.
2) Don't ride from the center of the street into the crosswalk then back
into
the center of the street at an intersection.
3) Don't pedal the wrong way down a bike lane that's clearly marked with
arrows indicating the correct direction of traffic  (nearly pasted some guy
today doing that)
4) Don't ride 10 blocks up the busiest arterial in the city when there's a
neighborhood street that runs parallel the entire 10 blocks that's a block
over.
5) Don't ride around on city streets without a helmet
6) Have rear view mirrors on their bicycle if riding in city streets
7) Wear clothing with reflectors after dark and use a battery operated head
and
tail light after dark.
8) Use the correct arm signals when preparing to turn.
9) Support a requirement that all bicycles operated on main arterial roads
(ie: roads posted at 35Mph or above, not neighborhood streets) carry a
license plate.
10) Pass the written driving test that is used for licensing drivers in the
state
they reside in.

Frankly I see all 10 of the above constantly violated every day I drive to
work.  And what is worse is sometimes this isn't just 1 bicyclist but a
group
of them.  I'm not talking about 10 year old kids on their BMX bikes doing
this, I'm talking 35 year olds riding 10-15 speed $1000 bicycles in the
middle
of the city.

And do the cops even bother going after them?  Of course not, without a
license
plate the bicyclist just ducks down an alley and he's gone, and the cops
can't do
anything.

Ted
Matt Whiting - 22 Aug 2004 14:15 GMT
>  I've also had arguements when
>
>>people, upon finding out I use a bicycle as well go into a rant about
>>those damn bicyclists who won't use the sidewalk
>
> I don't mind bicyclists on the road as long as they:

You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
built in the US.

Matt
Matthew Russotto - 23 Aug 2004 01:36 GMT
>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
>built in the US.

There were roads in the US before bicycles.  Heck, there were roads in
the area know known as the US before there was a US.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 02:58 GMT
>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
>>built in the US.
>
> There were roads in the US before bicycles.  Heck, there were roads in
> the area know known as the US before there was a US.

Not smoothly paved for use by mechanical wheeled vehicles that weren't
pulled by an animal.
Matthew Russotto - 23 Aug 2004 15:18 GMT
>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Not smoothly paved for use by mechanical wheeled vehicles that weren't
>pulled by an animal.

National Pike was paved in macadam in 1830, fifty years before the
founding of the League of American Wheelmen.  Use of asphalt for roads
in the US dates back to 1872.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 15:34 GMT
>>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
>>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> founding of the League of American Wheelmen.  Use of asphalt for roads
> in the US dates back to 1872.

That's nice. But the first movement to get smoothly paved roads  
was by bicyclists. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.
Matthew Russotto - 23 Aug 2004 15:58 GMT
>>>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
>>>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>That's nice. But the first movement to get smoothly paved roads  
>was by bicyclists. You may not like that, but that's the way it is.

That's bicyclist propaganda.  Roads were paved -- and smoothly paved,
as well -- before bicyclist advocacy for such started.  SOMEONE was
surely pushing for them earlier, or they never would have gotten
built.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 16:49 GMT
>>>>>>You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
>>>>>>was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> surely pushing for them earlier, or they never would have gotten
> built.

You have one road that somebody made and only your word for that. Hardly a
movement.  
Bernard Farquart - 23 Aug 2004 17:25 GMT
Did the Romans have bicycles?
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 17:30 GMT
> Did the Romans have bicycles?

Good question. Brent?
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 18:59 GMT
>> Did the Romans have bicycles?
>
> Good question. Brent?

What difference does it make? roman roads weren't suitable for use
by bicycle and are not of the kind being discussed. Roads consisting of
stones layed next to each other does not make for a good bicycling
surface. In fact, if you want to discourage bicycling, which seems to be
the point everytime somebody brings this up, I suggest using Roman road
building technology.

If you people are going to argue this stuff at least get out of your cars
and on two wheels for a bit to get some basic understanding.

Images of roman roads:
http://www.bible-history.com/geography/images/appian-way.jpg
http://www.highways.gov.uk/images/history_roads.gif
http://www.streetworks.fsnet.co.uk/roman/romanroads.htm

But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration
has to say:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/rw93.htm
Highway Existence: -- 100 Years and Beyond
A peaceful campaign of progress and reform:
The Federal Highway Administration at 100
"In the second half of the 19th century, the railroads dominated
interstate travel, and the limited pre-railroad network of roads fell
into neglect. In the 1880s, however, the growing popularity of a new mode
of transportation, the "ordinary" bicycle -- the type with the large
front wheel -- was the first sign of change."
<...>
"The biggest problem was that, outside the cities, the nation's bad roads
made bicycling a laborious, dangerous process. As one contemporary slogan
put it, the roads were, "Wholly unclassable, almost impassable, scarcely
jackassable!" The Good Roads Movement was a response to this problem.
Bicycle groups, led by the League of American Wheelmen (L.A.W.), and
manufacturers, led by Col. Albert Pope, worked at the federal, state, and
local level to secure road improvement legislation."

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/bicycle.htm

"The problem was that roads outside cities were in terrible shape ("hardly
jackassable" in one common phrase of the day). Since the advent of the
railroad in the 1830's, roads had devolved to the lowest levels of
government (counties and townships) that had the least incentive and
resources to improve them. Bicyclists and their national, State, and
local organizations became the earliest agitators for good roads. Even
before farmers. The bicycle interests were responsible for many State
road improvement laws, and also deserve much of the credit for convincing
Congress in 1893 to authorize the U.S. Office of Road Inquiry in the
Department of Agriculture, with a $10,000 budget a mission of education
and encouragement. (That Agency evolved into the Federal Highway
Administration.) So the bicycle craze led to the good roads revolution
and encouraged it (in cooperation with farming and railroad interests)
during the last decade of the 19th century."

"The bicycle craze also contributed to the Automobile Era. Tinkering with
a variety of early horseless carriages resulted in the development of the
internal-combustion powered automobile in the mid-1880's in Europe. The
first gasoline-powered automobile in the United States was built in 1893
and was operated in Springfield, Massachusetts, just a few weeks before
the Office of Road Inquiry went into operation. The automobile would soon
supplant the bicycle in the public's affections; what had seemed like a
revolution in 1890 had become an artifact of an earlier era by 1905. The
automobile interests took over the Good Roads Movement."

I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that
followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people
want to seek out everything possible to remove bicyclists from the road
and will even deny history to that goal. Totally irrational, but that's
what anti-bicycling people are, irrational. Get stuck behind some driver
doing 5mph slower than you want to go for 5 miles, no problem. Have
to slow by 5mph for 5 seconds to time a pass of a bicyclist, that's way
too much to ask.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 19:08 GMT
> >> Did the Romans have bicycles?

> > Good question. Brent?

> What difference does it make?

To me? None.

> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to
> say:

Well, the FHWA is known for saying stuff that ain't true.  Stuff like "We
need very high levels of upward light from car headlights, otherwise
overhead road signs are invisible. Headlights without high levels of
uplight work fine in Europe because all overhead signs in Europe are
self-illuminated."
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 19:44 GMT
>> >> Did the Romans have bicycles?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> To me? None.

You want to hear answers to questions you don't care about?

>> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to
>> say:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> uplight work fine in Europe because all overhead signs in Europe are
> self-illuminated."

This is a little more important to them, the history of how they came
into existance.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 20:23 GMT
> >> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to
> >> say:
> >
> > Well, the FHWA is known for saying stuff that ain't true.

> This is a little more important to them, the history of how they came
> into existance.

H'm. I'm not sure I agree that the FHWA considers events of a century ago
"more important" than current laws and regulations.
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 20:26 GMT
>> >> But, why don't we see what the federal highway administration has to
>> >> say:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> H'm. I'm not sure I agree that the FHWA considers events of a century ago
> "more important" than current laws and regulations.

Be totally humorless if you must.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 Aug 2004 20:34 GMT
> >> > Well, the FHWA is known for saying stuff that ain't true.

> >> This is a little more important to them, the history of how they came
> >> into existance.

> > H'm. I'm not sure I agree that the FHWA considers events of a century
> > ago "more important" than current laws and regulations.

> Be totally humorless if you must.

Well, c'mon, whaddya expect? It's Monday and I haven't ridden my bike yet
today.
Matt Whiting - 23 Aug 2004 22:33 GMT
>>>Did the Romans have bicycles?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> to slow by 5mph for 5 seconds to time a pass of a bicyclist, that's way
> too much to ask.

Now you've done it.  Confused Russotto with the facts.  This could get ugly!

Matt
Matthew Russotto - 24 Aug 2004 16:20 GMT
>> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that
>> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people
[...]

>Now you've done it.  Confused Russotto with the facts.  This could get ugly!

His own article refutes the claim that the bicyclists were the _first_
to push for paved roads.
doc - 23 Aug 2004 23:19 GMT
> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that
> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to slow by 5mph for 5 seconds to time a pass of a bicyclist, that's way
> too much to ask.

Bicycles are fine, motorcycles are better, and automobiles are the current
pinnacle of the evolution.

As in any evolution, there was nothing "wrong" with the progenitor; it just
didn't do the job as well its successors.

Bicycles are wonderful as individual transportation in a flat, calm world.
They're somewhat less than wonderful for mass transportation in a world
with hills and changing weather. They have their place, but that place is
very restricted. The horse is a better alternative for those who have to
concern themselves with more than just themselves. The automobile is even
better.

doc
Brent P - 23 Aug 2004 23:58 GMT
>> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that
>> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> As in any evolution, there was nothing "wrong" with the progenitor; it just
> didn't do the job as well its successors.

Depends on the 'job'. There are alot of places today where the bicycle
still does the job better.

> Bicycles are wonderful as individual transportation in a flat, calm world.
> They're somewhat less than wonderful for mass transportation in a world
> with hills and changing weather. They have their place, but that place is
> very restricted. The horse is a better alternative for those who have to
> concern themselves with more than just themselves. The automobile is even
> better.

Trying to spin the bicycle into being selfish? That's a difficult spin job
to say the least. Passing a bicyclist is easy, being stuck behind some old
fart in a large buick is orders of magnitude more difficult to deal with.
doc - 24 Aug 2004 06:14 GMT
> >> I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that
> >> followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Trying to spin the bicycle into being selfish? That's a difficult spin
> job to say the least.

Not really, especially when we're talking about a bicycle built for two.
Ever try one? There's a damn good reason why bicyclists tend to be
self-centered.

> Passing a bicyclist is easy, being stuck behind
> some old fart in a large buick is orders of magnitude more difficult to
> deal with.

Passing a bicyclist who insists on doing 15 mph in a 40 mph zone while
traffic backs up behind her isn't as easy as you'd like us to believe. Even
the old farts in their Buicks do at least 30.

Since 'Jurassic Park' we've all been fascinated by dinosaurs, but not by
pedal-motioned individualists who think they have the answer to all life's
ills.

Selfish? Damn right.

A bicyclist uses far more energy and generates much more carbon-dioxide
than a car driver does for the same mph. And that's on flat roads.

doc
Brent P - 24 Aug 2004 06:42 GMT
> Passing a bicyclist who insists on doing 15 mph in a 40 mph zone while
> traffic backs up behind her isn't as easy as you'd like us to believe. Even
> the old farts in their Buicks do at least 30.

I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist.
All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who
didn't know how to drive and deal with the situation. Or a motorist
who wasn't paying attention and didn't notice the bicyclist until
he was right up on him and then had to slow to the bicyclist's speed.
I notice bicyclists well ahead of time, they are quite obvious in
traffic and easy to get around.

As far as the old fart, he'll delay you alot longer, because it's going
to take a hell of alot longer to get around him. Automobiles are much
more effective at blocking up a roadway than a bicycle.

> Since 'Jurassic Park' we've all been fascinated by dinosaurs, but not by
> pedal-motioned individualists who think they have the answer to all life's
> ills.
> Selfish? Damn right.

Because some drivers don't know how to operate their vehicle in traffic
you blame the bicyclist. Classic american response. Go after the bicyclist
instead of the root cause problem of stupid drivers who cannot judge
traffic or be bothered to pay attention to the world around them.

But of course, the guy in the old car, or any driver of any vehicle
who can't even make a turn at a speed greater than 2.5mph, that's not
even a bother for you. Doesn't even register.

> A bicyclist uses far more energy and generates much more carbon-dioxide
> than a car driver does for the same mph. And that's on flat roads.

CITE? I don't think I can expel anywhere near the volume of even the
smallest engine of my 3 cars (2.0L), let alone the largest (4.6L).

If I wanted to be 'selfish' and block the road, I would drive 5-10mph
below the posted speed limit or a good 10-30mph below the flow. There
is no way one can block traffic that good on a bicycle at any speed.
Matthew Russotto - 24 Aug 2004 16:33 GMT
>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist.
>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who
>didn't know how to drive and deal with the situation.

Probably they were afraid of getting their fender slapped when passing
the bicyclist in the room available given opposing traffic and the
bicyclists distance from the shoulder.

>As far as the old fart, he'll delay you alot longer, because it's going
>to take a hell of alot longer to get around him.

The old fart is predictable.  I can blow his doors off before he even
knows what happened.  The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling
back and forth within the lane, is not predictable.

>Automobiles are much
>more effective at blocking up a roadway than a bicycle.

Sure, if the goal is blocking.  But a slow and wobbly bike rider can
be harder to pass than a merely slow old fart.
Brent P - 24 Aug 2004 20:29 GMT
>>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist.
>>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the bicyclist in the room available given opposing traffic and the
> bicyclists distance from the shoulder.

LAME.

>>As far as the old fart, he'll delay you alot longer, because it's going
>>to take a hell of alot longer to get around him.

> The old fart is predictable.  I can blow his doors off before he even
> knows what happened.  The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling
> back and forth within the lane, is not predictable.

Legally riding bicyclists don't do that. But you already knew that.

>>Automobiles are much
>>more effective at blocking up a roadway than a bicycle.

> Sure, if the goal is blocking.  But a slow and wobbly bike rider can
> be harder to pass than a merely slow old fart.

I've never had a problem passing anyone who rides the way I do. EVER.
Matthew Russotto - 25 Aug 2004 15:02 GMT
>>>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist.
>>>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>LAME.

Yes, timid motorists ARE lame.

>> The old fart is predictable.  I can blow his doors off before he even
>> knows what happened.  The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling
>> back and forth within the lane, is not predictable.
>
>Legally riding bicyclists don't do that. But you already knew that.

Legally riding bicyclists are rare enough to be of no consequence.
Brent P - 25 Aug 2004 15:47 GMT
>>>>I've never had a problem passing any legally riding bicyclist.
>>>>All the problems I've ever seen were caused by a timid motorist who
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Yes, timid motorists ARE lame.

No your tired attack. The people who get their vehicle sheet metal wacked
are so close they are about to hit the bicyclist.

>>> The old fart is predictable.  I can blow his doors off before he even
>>> knows what happened.  The bicyclist, going 15mph and randomly wobbling
>>> back and forth within the lane, is not predictable.

>>Legally riding bicyclists don't do that. But you already knew that.

> Legally riding bicyclists are rare enough to be of no consequence.

Of the ones actually using the road, they are the majority in my
experience. It's not my fault motorists haven't learned to drive.
Bill Putney - 26 Aug 2004 02:50 GMT
> > Legally riding bicyclists are rare enough to be of no consequence.
>
> Of the ones actually using the road, they are the majority in my
> experience. It's not my fault motorists haven't learned to drive.

Yes it is, Brent.  We blame you personally.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
Bill Putney - 24 Aug 2004 11:20 GMT
> > Trying to spin the bicycle into being selfish? That's a difficult spin
> > job to say the least.
>
> Not really, especially when we're talking about a bicycle built for two.
> Ever try one?

Oh, I don't know - there can be selfish motivations for using a bicycle
built for two ("It takes two to tango").  8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
Matt Whiting - 24 Aug 2004 22:13 GMT
> A bicyclist uses far more energy and generates much more carbon-dioxide
> than a car driver does for the same mph. And that's on flat roads.

I'd like to see your source of data on this claim.

Matt
Matt Whiting - 24 Aug 2004 01:38 GMT
>>I don't understand this irrational need to disconnect everything that
>>followed from the development of the bicycle from it. It's as if people
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Bicycles are fine, motorcycles are better, and automobiles are the current
> pinnacle of the evolution.

I guess it depends on your mission and what you are trying to optimize.
 Personally, I see the mission for each being different.  Having owned
all three simultaneously, I don't consider one to be an evolution of the
other, but rather separate solutions to separate problems.  The bicycle
is about the most efficient means to transport a human from point A to
point B.  And it has the advantage of helping keep the human physically
fit at the same time.  As you say though, protection from the elements
is sadly lacking!

A motorcycle has some of the benefits of a bike such as leaning into
corners as God intended (this includes airplanes as well), being able to
feel the wind and smell the roses, but with much greater speed and a
little better protection from the elements, at least on a touring bike.

A car trades the fun and health benefits of a bike and motorcycle for
protection from the elements.  However, you sacrifice a lot of
efficiency for this convenience.  So, it may be evolution in comfort,
but "devolution" in efficiency.

> As in any evolution, there was nothing "wrong" with the progenitor; it just
> didn't do the job as well its successors.

But a bicycle does some aspects of job much better than a car, ditto a
motorcycle.  So I don't consider this an evolutionary chain.

Matt
Bill Putney - 30 Aug 2004 01:33 GMT
> A motorcycle has some of the benefits of a bike such as leaning into
> corners as God intended (this includes airplanes as well)...

Speaking of evolutionary technological developments, leaning into
corners, and airplanes, a few years ago when I was either reading a book
on the Wright bros., touring Wright-Patterson Air Field, or the WB
Museum at Kitty Hawk, I learned that it was a huge breakthru in the
development of manned flight when someone realized that an airplane
needed to be banked into turns rather than just steered (as in yaw with
no roll).  Prior unsuccessful attempts at manned flight had failed
largely because would-be developers were trying to immitate the steering
of a ship (i.e., yaw with no banking).  Someone finally realized that
maybe they needed to introduce roll into the equation.  Can't recall if
the Wright Bros. were the ones who first realized that or not - I'm
thinking it was someone else.

File that under "Things Mama didn't tell me."  8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")
Matt Whiting - 30 Aug 2004 21:36 GMT
>>A motorcycle has some of the benefits of a bike such as leaning into
>>corners as God intended (this includes airplanes as well)...
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the Wright Bros. were the ones who first realized that or not - I'm
> thinking it was someone else.

Well, birds figured it out a long time before the Wright Bros.!  :-)

Matt
Dori A Schmetterling - 23 Aug 2004 17:32 GMT
No, but rutted roads.

:-)
DAS
Signature

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

> Did the Romans have bicycles?
Bernard Farquart - 23 Aug 2004 18:41 GMT
> No, but rutted roads.

So they only had mountain bikes then?

Bernard
Matt Whiting - 23 Aug 2004 22:31 GMT
> Did the Romans have bicycles?

I don't know, but I do know that there roads were anything but smooth!

Matt
John David Galt - 24 Aug 2004 02:04 GMT
> You should be thanking the bicyclists for the roads you ride on as it
> was bicyclists (called wheelmen back then) that got the first roads
> built in the US.

When did they pay gas taxes or registration fees to fund road building?

Followups narrowed for relevance.
Brent P - 22 Aug 2004 17:48 GMT
> I don't mind bicyclists on the road as long as they:

I'll insert driver behaviors when I follow the rules of the road.

> 1) Don't pedal right through a stop sign without stopping, or a red light.

Drivers attempt to pass just before the stop sign. This results in the
driving being in the oncoming lane at the sign or cutting off the
bicyclist and slamming on the brakes. Some drivers also refuse to wait
their turn behind a bicyclist or even recognize that the bicyclist
gets a turn.

> 2) Don't ride from the center of the street into the crosswalk then back
> into the center of the street at an intersection.

Drivers who get angry when there is a bicyclist in the queue ahead of
them. The speed of traffic is 'stopped' but they get pissed simply because
a bicyclist is in the center of the lane and not giving up his place
in the queue to motorists.

> 3) Don't pedal the wrong way down a bike lane that's clearly marked with
> arrows indicating the correct direction of traffic  (nearly pasted some guy
> today doing that)

Drivers who think that because a bicycle lane exists that the bicyclists
must remain in this prison.

> 4) Don't ride 10 blocks up the busiest arterial in the city when there's a
> neighborhood street that runs parallel the entire 10 blocks that's a block
> over.

Drivers who decide to build subdivisons with dead ends and non-gridded
streets and then get pissed off when bicyclists have to use the
arterials. Bicyclists do not ride arterials for sh.ts and giggles. A
bicyclist may not know your area as well as you do. He cannot count on
subdivision streets going through and may not have the time to add 5
miles to his journey if it turns out they don't.

> 5) Don't ride around on city streets without a helmet

Drivers who think that because a bicyclist isn't wearing a foam hat
that means they can do whatever they like to that bicyclist.
What difference does a foam hat make to you? The foam hat has very
debatable safety results. They are only good for falling over AT BEST.
I have found, that those who demand bicyclists wear helmets fall into
the following catagories.

1) Busy bodies who think they know everything and want to tell other
  people what they should do for their own 'safety'.
2) People who want to discourage bicycling.
3) People who want to force others to be like them.
4) Motorists who want bicyclists to wear helmets so they (the motorists)
  won't feel bad when they run a bicyclist down.

> 6) Have rear view mirrors on their bicycle if riding in city streets

Driver's who don't use their mirrors for anything more than make-up.
BTW, mirrors are a convience but aren't needed. Hearing and the lack
of blind spots with head checks makes them un-needed. Sounds like you
want to up the equipment requirements to discourage bicycling.

> 7) Wear clothing with reflectors after dark and use a battery operated head
> and tail light after dark.

Motorists who don't bother to replace the bulbs in their vehicle's
lighting system.  BTW, generator powered lights are much brighter.

> 8) Use the correct arm signals when preparing to turn.

Motorists who dhon't understand what an arm signal means.

> 9) Support a requirement that all bicycles operated on main arterial roads
> (ie: roads posted at 35Mph or above, not neighborhood streets) carry a
> license plate.

Motorists who drive around with expired plates and haven't bothered to
get the new plates that completed distribution 2 years ago on their car.

And now your anti-cycling idea is clear. Again, bicyclists don't ride
arterials for sh.ts and giggles. They aren't fun to ride for the most
part. Drivers built the neighborhoods to discouarge drivers from using
neighborhood streets. That means bicyclists can't as well.

> 10) Pass the written driving test that is used for licensing drivers in the
> state they reside in.

Something like 99.9% of adult bicyclists have a drivers license. The
bad bicyclists you see are the *SAME* motorists I mention above. In fact,
I think if you used a bicyclist, you'd be one of the bad ones. Because
you seem to think that the bicyclist doesn't belong on the road unless
he meets some assinine criteria, like wearing a foam hat. My guess is
you'd follow the stay-out-of-the-way-of-cars style, which is highly
illegal and requires all the bad riding you mention plust alot more.

> Frankly I see all 10 of the above constantly violated every day I drive to
> work.  And what is worse is sometimes this isn't just 1 bicyclist but a
> group of them.

Replace bicyclist with motorist and that's what I see everytime I
use a road with *ANY* vehicle.

> And do the cops even bother going after them?  Of course not, without a
> license plate the bicyclist just ducks down an alley and he's gone,
> and the cops can't do anything.

With a car and a license plate the cop doesn't give a sh.t. Oh, BTW,
I've been harrassed by anti-bicyclist cops more than once who told me
I couldn't even use the roadway when I was riding legally. So, they can
do something if they are motivated to.  (They expected me to ride
on the pavement right of the white edge line, which was about as wide
as my bicycle tire)
Daniel J. Stern - 19 Aug 2004 03:22 GMT
>> Airbags only significantly reduce injuries and deaths in extremely
>> severe crashes, and in North America, even this significant reduction
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> experienced in the severe crashes in which an airbag might be of actual
>> benefit.

> This is very useful information. I appreicate your providing it.

The best airbag implementation in the world is Australia's. A close second
place goes to the international ECE implementation used throughout much of
the world outside North America.

> >Interstate highway speed limits NOT posted in accordance with the
> >85th-percentile principle, which has been repeatedly and robustly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I think most cops understand this issue

That's highly localized, but the point is that the IIHS fervently supports
underposted speed limits combined with increased enforcement. IIHS donates
radar and laser guns to police departments, lobbies against V85-based
speed limits, and so forth -- and that is directly responsive to your
request for an example of how IIHS says/does things that benefit their
supporting industry's coffers more than the general good.

> there are sooooooooooooooo many dunderheads driving that can't drive
> safely at posted limits that keeping the speed down may be the lesser of
> two eeeevils.

Go back and re-read what was written. V85-based speed limits are known and
shown to yield the lowest number of injuries and deaths. They do not bar
the dunderheads from the roads when they do these studies! Those results
are WITH THE DUNDERHEADS INCLUDED.

> >> I am having a hard time understanding how that could be.

> >Perhaps you should read a primer on lobbying organizations and whose
> >interests they serve.

> Now, dang it, that's just snarky.

Snarky, yes, but also deserved. I do not sugar-coat.

-DS
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 26 Aug 2004 17:09 GMT
>>> Editor, Chrysler web pages
>>> Intellichoice.Com
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>> Portland, ORegon
>>> cc: USENET's alt.autos,rec.auto.makers.chrysler

Intellichoice still has not fixed the incorrect data, even though a rep
admitted it to me over the phone last week.

Also, the 'respond-to' e-mail address on their page was broken.

Freedom is Slavery
Intellichoice is Dumb

--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Daniel J. Stern - 26 Aug 2004 22:56 GMT
<a protracted buncha stuff about some website>

Say, John...

I know you're probably going to think me snarky for pointing this out,
but...

...y'know how nobody's engaging you on the matter of this Intellichoice
website and its alleged errors?

It's because nobody cares. There's so much information out there on the
internet that most of us don't go on sysiphean missions to correct every
perceived instance of incorrect reporting. We simply find more dependable
sources of information.

Don't get me wrong; you've every right to post whatever you please, but
nobody cares that you feel Intellichoice got a fact wrong.
Arthur Alspector - 27 Aug 2004 05:14 GMT
"SYSIPHEAN??  wow!  You are just so...so.....intellichoice : )

> <a protracted buncha stuff about some website>
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Don't get me wrong; you've every right to post whatever you please, but
> nobody cares that you feel Intellichoice got a fact wrong.
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 07 Sep 2004 21:45 GMT
><a protracted buncha stuff about some website>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>...y'know how nobody's engaging you on the matter of this Intellichoice
>website and its alleged errors?

I didn't expect you to. You've got better things (sincerely, no snark from
me) to do than to respond to this issue.

>It's because nobody cares. There's so much information out there on the
>internet that most of us don't go on sysiphean missions to correct every
>perceived instance of incorrect reporting. We simply find more dependable
>sources of information.

And, here's another data point to explain that Intellichoice is less
reliable than other sites.

>Don't get me wrong; you've every right to post whatever you please, but
>nobody cares that you feel Intellichoice got a fact wrong.

Aha; perhaps none of the highly skilled and knowledgable autogurus here
have time to invest in this, but when another Joe Schmoe like me wants to
know about the trustworthiness of sites like this and Group-Googles
<groups.google.com> under rec.autos for  "Intellichoice', this may pop up.

Or, you could indict me for excessive optimism without a license.

--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
yeltrabnhoj@email.com - 16 Aug 2004 20:22 GMT
Well, the e-mail address bouncers, the webmaster address bounces and the
postmaster address bounces.  Guess Intellichoice ain't much interested in
hearing about problems with the accuracy of their data.

Readers, beware.

>Editor, Chrysler web pages
>Intellichoice.Com
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>--
>Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.

--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
 
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