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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / August 2004

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minivan seating arrangement

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Mike - 23 Aug 2004 20:39 GMT
Hello,

I am not sure if there is a more appropriate newsgroup to be asking this
question. If there is could someone please inform me? Thank you.

Here is the question:

I am looking for a large minivan with a unique seating arrangement. We
are a 5 person family. I have 3 young children and ideally I am looking
for a minivan where I can seat all 3 of my children in the middle row
(without having to require the back bench which I can then use the space
for cargo). I would even like to be able to remove the back bench to
allow for a cargo space if possible.

Unfortunately most minivans only seat 2 people in the middle row and so
I would have to have one of my children sitting my themselves in the
back bench and the remaining space on the back bench would not be an
efficient use of space - I would rather be able to remove the back bench
out completely.

I have researched every minivan from 1990 to 2005 for such a seating
arrangement and have so far only found 2 or maybe 3 possibilities:

1995 Dodge Grand Caravan: the back bench and the middle bench are
interchangeable and so I could move the back bench (which seats 3) into
the middle position and then take the other 2 seater bench out leaving
ample cargo space.

1995 Lumina: this unique vehicle has 3 removeable bucket seats in the
middle row - you can take out one seat at a time - or leave them all in
- very versatile. Then the back bench (which seats 2) can be removed to
allow for cargo space. But it has poor crash-test ratings for safety for
many of its model years (except 1992 and 1993). 1992 and 1993 models are
possibilities for me but I don't think the Insurance Institute for
Highway Safety actually tested this vehicle before 1994 and so I can't
be sure as I could with other minivans such as the Dodge Caravan.

1995-1997? Ford Windstar: I have been told the back bench on the
Windstar can be moved up into the middle position but I am not sure this
is accurate information and I will have to confirm this. Could anyone
confirm this? Minor note: Its also too bad you can't slide a pair of
skiis underneath the back and middle seats of a Windstar like you can
with a Dodge Caravan.

I like the new Honda Odyssey but the middle row seem to only seat 2 -
like most minivans. I am only looking at minivans that have good
crash-test ratings for safety. That is why I like the Ford Windstar,
Dodge Caravans and the Honda Odyssey. I eliminated the GMC Safari/Astro
for this reason - the GMC Safari/Astro has a versatile seating
arrangement and it can even seat 3 in the middle row but it has poor
ratings for safety in crash-tests.

My question is in two parts:
1. Are there any older minivans from the 1990's that can seat 3 in the
middle row?
2. Are there any newer minivans (2000-2005) that can seat 3 in the
middle row?

Are minivans after about 2000 no longer made to seat 3 in the middle
row? That would be an interesting and surprising conclusion - it would
also be too bad.

Its always nice for a 5 person family to be able to accomodate a friend
or two once in a while and that is why we were originally looking for a
7 seater minivan.

Thank you for any suggestions.

Signature

Mike

Garth Vader - 24 Aug 2004 13:27 GMT
> 1995-1997? Ford Windstar: I have been told the back bench on the
> Windstar can be moved up into the middle position but I am not sure this
> is accurate information and I will have to confirm this. Could anyone
> confirm this? Minor note: Its also too bad you can't slide a pair of
> skiis underneath the back and middle seats of a Windstar like you can
> with a Dodge Caravan.

Hi, Mike

I have a 95 Windstar.  The wider back seat does not fit in the 2nd row.  I
also looked at a new Freestar.  The rear seat is too small!  It's poorly
constructed (so that it can fit in the floor), and the back of the seat is
too low, IMHO, to afford any protection in an accident.  Also, there's not
enough headroom for me to sit there.

As a possible compromise, we have a 2004 Kia Sedona.  The back seat comes
out in 2 pieces, so that your 3rd child could sit in the back and you would
still be able to remove the other seat.  That's what we do, and we have 3
kids as well.

Hope this helps.
Dick C - 24 Aug 2004 16:37 GMT
Mike wrote in alt.autos

> 1995 Dodge Grand Caravan: the back bench and the middle bench are
> interchangeable and so I could move the back bench (which seats 3) into
> the middle position and then take the other 2 seater bench out leaving
> ample cargo space.

I believe that almost all minivans with bench seats can move the
large bench seat to the middle position. I could do in on my
91 Plymouth Voyager. And FYI, the only difference between Plymouth
Dodge, and Chrysler are the names. The minivans are identical. So
what can be done on the Plymouth (Now defunct) can also be done on
the Dodge and Chrysler.
And I believe I have seen some other brands talking about different
configurations.  To figure out if it can be done, short of actually
asking an owner, look at the inside of a Dodge while both seats
are in. The middle area will have a set of slots between the
seat and the door, this is where the large seat clips in.
Once you have an idea of how it looks, go look at other brands and
see if they don't  have similar arrangements.
AFAIK, the only vans that you probably can't do it with are the vans
with Bucket Seats.
> Are minivans after about 2000 no longer made to seat 3 in the middle
> row? That would be an interesting and surprising conclusion - it would
> also be too bad.

Ask a dealer. Especially if you are looking at new or late model used
vans. Go to the dealerships and look around, ask the sales person. If
you aren't sure, but like the van, ask to see it done. Even better,
tell the salesman that you aare interested in a van but you will not
buy any if you can't move the seats.

> Its always nice for a 5 person family to be able to accomodate a friend
> or two once in a while and that is why we were originally looking for a
> 7 seater minivan.

Yes, it is nice. At the time we bought the minivan, we had 4 kids,
ranging from kindergarten to highschool. And the highschooler played
the stand up bass. The first trip we took was to take him to a band
camp about 200 miles away. He and his bass, that is, plus a bass guitar.
Plus we took many trips with all the kids.
As far as reconfiguring the seats, they are heavy enough to require
2 people to move them in and out. Although one person can move the
rear seat forward and latch it in place. But it is a pain. And not a
job that we did daily, or even weekly.
What we did, when we needed to carry something too big for a fold down
rear seat, was pull it out and leave the middle seat in. Then when we
were done, we would just put the rear seat back in.

Signature

Dick #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin

Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email: dickcr@comcast.net

Mike - 26 Aug 2004 07:20 GMT
Thank you for all these helpful comments Garth and Dick,

Thanks Garth for the info about the back seat of a 1995 Windstar not
fitting into the second row - very helpful. This is probably the same
with all Windstars I would guess. Also, that is very interesting you
suggested the Kia Sedona. I didn't consider it at first because I had
always thought Kia only made small-sized vehicles. I just checked the
Kia website and yes, the Sedona is one of the largest sized minivan.
Perfect, however it also only seats 2 in the middle row - as you
mentioned. For anyone interested here are the size specs on a 2005 Kia
Sedona (which I wouldn't be surprised if they were the same for all the
models from 2002)

1995 Kia Sedona
194.1 inches long x 74.6 inches wide x 69.3 inches tall

Garth thanks for the info about the Freestar and the small space for the
back seat occupants. Therefore I don't think I will consider a Freestar
- I would rather buy a Honda Odessey if I was looking in that price
range. In any case, I don't think the minivan with the features I am
looking for (one that seats 3 in the middle and has good crash test
ratings) exists unfortunately - unless I buy a 1995 Dodge Caravan or
pre-1995 Dodge Caravan model. The 1995 and earlier Dodge Caravans had
interchangeable bench seats and a 4 star rating for safety - a minvan
design success IMHO. But the Windstar has the best safety rating (5
stars) during this era (mid 1990s). Today (2004) most minivans have 5
star safety ratings.

Thanks Dick for your advice on how to check if the seats are
interchangeable by looking at the connections on the floor - good idea -
I'll check this out.

But you did mention that most minivans have interchangeable seats -
that, I believe is not very accurate. Most minivans, especially after
1995, do not have interchangeable bench seats and therefore most
minivans cannot accomodate 3 people in the middle row. In fact, I only
know of one minivan that is still made today that can accomodate 3
people in the middle row: the Chevy Montana. Unfortunately, the Montana
has poor crash-test ratings and so I have eliminated it as a
possibility. The GMC Safari also can seat 3 in the middle row but it
also has poor crash-test ratings. The Safari was one of my favourite
minivans until I researched crash-test sites and found it to be rated
low for safety. (from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration)

I am coming to the conclusion that after 1995, minivan manufacturers
have given up on attempting to design a minivan that seats 3 people in
the middle row. 99% of them always only seat 2 passengers in the middle
row. The only minivan that can accomodate 3 passengers in the middle row
is the Chevy Montana - which has one of the lower ratings for safety
considering its poor crash test ratings by the Insurance Institute for
Highway Safety.

Maybe in 2006 this all might change. But for now I suppose we must
consider 2 people in the middle row as being some kind of standard for
minivans. I am not sure why. One reason I would guess could be that
there are not many families with 3 or more children.

I bet that if one of the minivan manufacturers such as Dodge, Ford,
Chevy, Honda, Kia or Toyota built a wider minivan (76 inches wide or
more) with attention to safety to achieve a 5 star status, that can seat
3 in the middle row - there would be a market for this for people with
larger families (3 or more children):

Here is my dream minivan:
slightly wider: (76 inches wide or more to fit 3 people comfortably
across and to also allow for someone to slip past the middle row to
access the back row.)
at least 190 inches long. maybe 195 inches long.
at least 67 inches tall - maybe 70? (But not overheight for underground
shopping mall parking lots)
seats 8 comfortably:  2 in the front, 3 in the middle row and 3 in the back
all back seats (and middle row too ideally) tuck under the floor (like
Dodge's "stow-and-go seat design")
lots of cargo space equal to or larger than the cargo space in the back
of a 2005 Honda Oddysey.
5 star crash test rating from National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Good crash test rating from Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
This would be the ultimate minivan for families of 3 or more children.

It would almost be like a full sized van but not quite - great for
larger families.

For now this year I will be most likely looking for a Ford Windstar
(first choice) or a 1995 Dodge Grand Caravan (second choice). After a
few years I will consider buying a used 1999 Honda Oddessy or a
2002-2005 Kia Sedona or a Toyota Sienna. And then hopefully after 2005
there will be some more choices (such as a minivan that seats 3 in the
middle row) in the market for minivans for larger families.

Mike
Mike - 27 Aug 2004 00:17 GMT
One other feature that I would add to the perfect family minivan:

windows that roll down in the middle row (in addition to the windows
that roll down in the front row)
(The Toyota Sienna has such widows - what a great idea!)

Also just to confirm: apparently according to several Ford dealers I
have called lately, the back seats of a Ford Windstar are not
interchangeable - you cannot move the back 3 seater bench of a Windstar
into the middle row position. Thats too bad. This can be done only with
the 1995 and earlier Dodge Caravan.

Signature

Mike

Mike - 27 Aug 2004 07:42 GMT
> One other feature that I would add to the perfect family minivan:
>
> windows that roll down in the middle row (in addition to the windows
> that roll down in the front row)
> (The Toyota Sienna has such widows - what a great idea!)

The Toyota Sienna has such *windows* - I meant to write. I just visited
the Toyota website to check out the new 2004 Toyota Sienna and what a
nice surprise - there is the perfect minivan - it seats 3 in the middle
row - unlike most minivans - and it has a lot of space and also has
middle row sliding down windows. I should have checked this website
first. The Sienna also has a 5 star safety rating. And so this concludes
my search for the perfect minivan for larger families.

> Also just to confirm: apparently according to several Ford dealers I
> have called lately, the back seats of a Ford Windstar are not
> interchangeable - you cannot move the back 3 seater bench of a Windstar
> into the middle row position. Thats too bad. This can be done only with
> the 1995 and earlier Dodge Caravan.

Oops... I think I am mistaken about the seating of the Windstar. I just
visited a Ford dealer today and checked out a couple Windstars - some
1996 models. They all have an extra seat mounting bracket hidden under
the carpet probably intended for the back seat to move into the middle
position. It might only be for bucket seats in the middle row but it
would appear that it also works for the back bench too. I'll check into
this later. That would mean that there are now 2 good choices for
minivans that seat 3 in the middle row: the Ford Windstar and the 1995
Dodge Caravan (or earlier Caravans)

Signature

Mike

Fred - 27 Aug 2004 08:09 GMT
> The Sienna also has a 5 star safety rating. And so this concludes
>my search for the perfect minivan for larger families.

I agree.  The only thing is that 8-seat Siennas only come in
the CE and LE models, not the higher end XLE.
We also have 3 younger children and didn't want to put anyone
in the rear seats.  (A friend of ours got rear-ended in a Odyssey
whcih broke the little boy's femur and fractured the daughter's
jaw.)  Another big consideration is that the Sienna has side-curtain
air-bags.  (Be sure to ask for them, as they are *not* standard.)
 
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