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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / September 2004

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Who usually pays hospital bills?

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OracleofBugtussle - 03 Sep 2004 15:46 GMT
I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
to someone else while driving; let's say I smash into their car
and it's my fault, and they are injured and require lots of medical
care.  Would my bodily injury liability coverage pick the person's
hospital bill (up to its limits), or does the injured person's
personal medical insurance company usually pay for this, assuming
the person *has* medical insurance?

I was told by an insurance agent that when the injured's insurer
gets wind that the injuries were cause by an at-fault driver, they
go after the at-fault's insurance company for re-imbursement.   Is this
true, or was the agent applying a little bias to scare me into more
coverage?  I currently have a limit of $100K bodily injury liability
per person, $300K per accident.  So the fact is, I guess, that if
someone's medical bills exceeded these amounts, my insurance would
be exhausted and whatever else was due (including judgements from
potential lawsuits for pain and suffering) would come from my assets.
How much bodily injury liability protection do you all have?  What
is average?  A lot of critters in my state have traditionally had
NONE.

--
Oracle
Chloe - 03 Sep 2004 16:08 GMT
> I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
> what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> is average?  A lot of critters in my state have traditionally had
> NONE.

I think if you're a reasonably careful driver those are reasonable limits.
In the scenario you describe, yes, I think the injured party's insurer would
indeed try (and likely succeed) in seeing that the limits of your liability
police were used up before they stepped in--or alternatively that they were
reimbursed up to your policy limits. Procedure for coordination of benefits
is usually a part of any medical insurance policy.

From what I've heard and read, if you carry a reasonably high liability
limit even if you're at fault in the accident many claimants and their
insurance companies will not opt for suing for additional damages--they
figure it's sufficient to just take what they can get with reasonable ease.
However, if you're very concerned about this you should look into what's
called an excess liability or umbrella policy.
Marc VanHeyningen - 03 Sep 2004 17:17 GMT
Thus said last_permutation@yahoo.com (OracleofBugtussle):
>I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
>what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>personal medical insurance company usually pay for this, assuming
>the person *has* medical insurance?

Medical insurance generally has a subrogation provision which would
make your liability insurance primary.  Either your insurance would
pay, or else the victim's medical insurance would pay but the eventual
settlement from your liability insurance would go to reimburse the
medical insurance company.

>I was told by an insurance agent that when the injured's insurer
>gets wind that the injuries were cause by an at-fault driver, they
>go after the at-fault's insurance company for re-imbursement.   Is this
>true, or was the agent applying a little bias to scare me into more
>coverage?

Sounds about right.

> I currently have a limit of $100K bodily injury liability
>per person, $300K per accident.  So the fact is, I guess, that if
>someone's medical bills exceeded these amounts, my insurance would
>be exhausted and whatever else was due (including judgements from
>potential lawsuits for pain and suffering) would come from my assets.

They could try to come after your assets, yes.

>How much bodily injury liability protection do you all have?  What
>is average?  A lot of critters in my state have traditionally had
>NONE.

Having none is illegal most places and hardly wise.  It depends not on
how safe a driver you are, but on what assets you have to protect.  If
you have significant vulnerable assets (not counting things like IRAs
which are generally protected from judgments and in bankruptcy) I'd
consider $1m (via an umbrella policy) to be a reasonable minimum to let
me sleep at night, but some people feel more comfortable with a bit more
risk.
Eric C. Near - 03 Sep 2004 18:49 GMT
I'd have to agree, but being minimally employed and with a wife in
college, I tend to buy the insurance I can afford the premiums on.

All insurance is is another tax in my eyes, though. I have no viable
assets, etc.
==============================================================

Eric C. Near - Burlington, OH
Guitarist, Crossing Jordan http://www.xingjordan.com
Organist, First Baptist, Ironton, OH http://www.fbcironton.org
#roadgeek - DeadGuyPerez

"What's great about the file-sharing revolution is that
we're not relying just on the kindness of Time Warner to
shove our music at the masses."
-- John Flansburgh, They Might Be Giants

==============================================================

> Having none is illegal most places and hardly wise.  It depends not on
> how safe a driver you are, but on what assets you have to protect.  If
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> me sleep at night, but some people feel more comfortable with a bit more
> risk.
The Real Bev - 03 Sep 2004 23:42 GMT
> Thus said last_permutation@yahoo.com (OracleofBugtussle):
> >I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> settlement from your liability insurance would go to reimburse the
> medical insurance company.

This happened to us a decade or more ago.  Both my medical insurance and
the stupid bitch who ran into me's liability insurance paid the full
amount.  Both insurance companies knew I was putting in claims to the
other insurance company, and it was legal.  Medical diagnosis/treatment
as a profit center.  Is this a great country or what?

Probably different now, of course...

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's
safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.        --Unknown

George - 03 Sep 2004 17:27 GMT
> I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
> what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> --
> Oracle

They do (and should) go after the person who caused the injury.

Many states have a required minimum. Many people who just say "give me car
insurance" might be surprised at how low the minimum is (I think my state is
$60k). You can usually protect personal assets from the John Edwards types
by carrying extra insurance for them to pick at.
Steve - 03 Sep 2004 17:55 GMT
http://info.insure.com/auto/basics.html
Michael D. Adams - 03 Sep 2004 19:30 GMT
: I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
: what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: personal medical insurance company usually pay for this, assuming
: the person *has* medical insurance?

I can (unfortunately) give you some first-hand experience -- I'm in
management at an auto insurer AND my wife is currently a claimant from
an auto accident where another driver has left her permanently
disabled.

Her medical bills are being paid as follows:

The first set of medical bills were paid out of the Medical Payments /
PIP coverage on our auto policy, even though she was not at fault.
Terms on Med Pay and PIP vary signifcantly from state to state, so
your mileage may vary.

Everything since those benefits were exhausted has been submitted to
our health insurance.  Our health insurance provider has a right to
seek reimbursement from the at-fault driver.  Technically, I suppose
our health insurer has a right to refuse to pay for accident-related
stuff, but so far (knock on wood) that hasn't been a problem.

We're currently suing the at-fault driver for those medical expenses
not covered by health insurance, lost wages, etc.   When we win the
lawsuit (or when the lawyers come to some sort of pre-trial
agreement), the at fault driver's insurer will pick up the tab up to
the limits of his Bodily Injury coverage on his auto policy.

When we blow through his BI limits, he can seek coverage from his
personal umbrella liability policy, if he has one.

When our official damages from the lawsuit/settlement exceed his
available insurance limits, we can then seek reimbursement under the
Uninsured/Underinsured Motorist coverage on our auto policy.  UM/UIM
coverage is another one that varies significantly by state, so your
experience could differ somewhat.  Our auto insurer would then gain
the right to seek reimbursement from the at-fault driver.

And, when that isn't enough to cover damages, we'll be left with trying to
collect any remainder from the at-fault driver directly, or with other
legal tools (garnishment, etc.).

Other than having to muck around with some legal mumbo-jumbo, the
at-fault driver is generally insulated from the hassle, while his
insurer is involved.   He won't be on the hook for any bills until his
insurer bows out, either because of his limits being exhausted, or
because the legal process has reached its conclusion (in our case,
probably 4 or 5 years after the accident).

Most injuries from auto accidents generally run up bills in the 4-5
figure neighborhood, so limits of 100/300 would protect you from those
situations.   However, when you start talking about death or permanent
disability... the compensatory damages can easily hit or pass the $1
million neighborhood.

If you have assets to protect, or expect to have assets to protect in
the future, getting 250/500 limits on auto, and getting a personal
umbrella policy with limits of at least $1m is probably something
worth considering.

And, getting the highest UIM limits you can is also a pretty good idea
to consider, to protect yourself from being hit by a driver who
doesn't have the million dollar umbrella (among other things).

Signature

Michael D. Adams         --  Windsor, Connecticut
mda-usenet@triskele.com  --  http://www.triskele.com

sweetchild - 03 Sep 2004 21:36 GMT
Thanks.....that was very informative-- I have a situation where 3 people are
suing me-- they were not really hurt but are trying to get what they
can....and they might  end up putting me thru the cleaners due to the awful
circumstances...
Back in 2002, someone else took my car out  while I was not home and  a car
hit  them-- but  the person who took my car out -- their license was
suspended-- and they   lived here-- it is messy..my insurance is 25/50 but I
have no  tangible assets  and I did not give the person permission to drive
my car-- but I am liable to  a degree- which degree has not been determined
yet.... the person who took my car is not bowing out-- he has admitted to
everything and will be going to court stating I did not allow him to take my
car...etc...but we will see what the contingency lawyers do.... I'd rather
get all of my toenails pulled out then go thru this...really....
Anyway I will be looking into better coverage in the future....

> : I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
> : what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> to consider, to protect yourself from being hit by a driver who
> doesn't have the million dollar umbrella (among other things).
BenDover@mailcity.com - 03 Sep 2004 22:20 GMT
The vehicle owner(S) is always liable for ANY damage caused by
your car when it is moving, no matter who is driving.  Even if it
simply drifted away and nobody was driving, or if the vehicle was
stolen, your stuck.  However if the person driving your car has
insurance his policy limits will come into play if a judgment is
issued against you that exceeds your policy liability limits.
That is why the litigation always names the owner AND the driver.

mike hunt

> Thanks.....that was very informative-- I have a situation where 3 people are
> suing me-- they were not really hurt but are trying to get what they
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> > Michael D. Adams         --  Windsor, Connecticut
> > mda-usenet@triskele.com  --  http://www.triskele.com
sweetchild - 03 Sep 2004 22:52 GMT
He had no insurance
> The vehicle owner(S) is always liable for ANY damage caused by
> your car when it is moving, no matter who is driving.  Even if it
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
> > > Michael D. Adams         --  Windsor, Connecticut
> > > mda-usenet@triskele.com  --  http://www.triskele.com
Rod Speed - 03 Sep 2004 23:24 GMT
> The vehicle owner(S) is always liable for ANY damage caused
> by your car when it is moving, no matter who is driving.

Complete and utter pig ignorant bullshit.

> Even if it simply drifted away and nobody was
> driving, or if the vehicle was stolen, your stuck.

Separate matter entirely. And if it 'simply drifted away'
because someone other than the owner didnt put the parking
break on etc, thats the liability of the fool that did that, tho
the owner may well be able to claim on their own insurance.

> However if the person driving your car has insurance
> his policy limits will come into play if a judgment is
> issued against you that exceeds your policy liability limits.

> That is why the litigation always names the owner AND the driver.

Not a f.cking clue.

>> Thanks.....that was very informative-- I have a situation where 3 people are
>> suing me-- they were not really hurt but are trying to get what they
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
>> > Michael D. Adams         --  Windsor, Connecticut
>> > mda-usenet@triskele.com  --  http://www.triskele.com
BenDover@mailcity.com - 04 Sep 2004 00:00 GMT
You have a lot to learn about liability it appears my young
friend.  One of my trucks was stolen from one of
my company lot in Dover Delaware back in 1994.  It was involved
in a high speed police chase two days later in Wilmington that
resulted in several accidents, including one death.  My insurance
company paid for everything,  over a three million dollars.
Including the thief's hospital and rehabilitation bills. He is
currently serving 30 years in a Delaware State Prison, for the
numerous violations including homicide by motor vehicle while
DUI.  Do some research before you comment, WBMA.  Particularly
when you choose to offer your opinion on
a subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge   ;)

mike hunt

> > The vehicle owner(S) is always liable for ANY damage caused
> > by your car when it is moving, no matter who is driving.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Not a f.cking clue.
Rod Speed - 04 Sep 2004 01:41 GMT
> You have a lot to learn about liability

Like hell I have. Even someone as stupid as you should be
able to work out that if someone steals your car, and causes
significant injury or damage with that stolen car, that the owner
of the car aint liable for what damage the crim does with the car.

> it appears my young friend.

Cant manage that either. I'm likely old enough to be
your  father and quite likely your grandfather too, fool.

> One of my trucks was stolen from one of my company lot
> in Dover Delaware back in 1994.  It was involved in a high
> speed police chase two days later in Wilmington that
> resulted in several accidents, including one death.  My insurance
> company paid for everything,  over a three million dollars.

Doesnt mean that the owner of the car is liable, fool.

Thats an entirely separate issue of what THE INSURANCE COVERS.

> Including the thief's hospital and rehabilitation bills. He is
> currently serving 30 years in a Delaware State Prison, for the
> numerous violations including homicide by motor vehicle while DUI.

An entirely separate issue to what the
state  laws specify insurance covers, fool.

> Do some research before you comment, WBMA.

Go and f.ck yourself, YSLPIF.

> Particularly when you choose to offer your opinion on  a
> subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge   ;)

Wota terminal fuckwit.

>> > The vehicle owner(S) is always liable for ANY damage caused
>> > by your car when it is moving, no matter who is driving.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>> Not a f.cking clue.
MikrHunt@mailcity.com - 06 Sep 2004 17:14 GMT
Your opinion is still wrong, my friend.  I suggest you can easily
educate yourself on the subject of liability of the vehicle
owner, simply call you agent and get your facts straight before
you comment anymore, WBMA.  Perhaps then you will not sound so
foolish or need to resort to vulgarities trying to make a point.
I'm 78, sonny.

mike hunt

> > You have a lot to learn about liability
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> > it appears my young friend.
Rod Speed - 06 Sep 2004 21:34 GMT
> Your opinion is still wrong,

Nope.

> my friend.

No 'friend' of someone as pig ignorant as you, fart.

> I suggest you can easily educate yourself on the subject of
> liability of the vehicle owner, simply call you agent and get
> your facts straight before you comment anymore, WBMA.

I order you to go shove your head up
a dead bear's arse, grandad, DWRFE.

> Perhaps then you will not sound so foolish or
> need to resort to vulgarities trying to make a point.

Even you should be able to bullshit your way
out of  your predicament better than that
pathetic effort, you pathetically senile silly old fool.

>> > You have a lot to learn about liability
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> > it appears my young friend.
MajorDomo@mailcity.com - 06 Sep 2004 23:00 GMT
Just goes to show one can not enlighten one who is not even
willing to talk to their own insurance agent.  
At least I tried, bye bye.

mike hunt

> > Your opinion is still wrong,
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> >>
> >> > it appears my young friend.
Rod Speed - 06 Sep 2004 23:16 GMT
> Just goes to show one can not enlighten one who is
> not even willing to talk to their own insurance agent.

An insurance agent might know something about insurance.

They clearly know sweet f.ck all about the legal
situation where a thief steals an UNINSURED CAR.

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to grasp
that if you have an unregistered and uninsured car on your
property and a thief steals it, the owner of that car is NOT
legally responsible for what that thief does with that car.

Talk about a pathetically senile silly old fart...

>> > Your opinion is still wrong,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>> >>
>> >> > it appears my young friend.
MajorDomo@mailcity.com - 07 Sep 2004 19:41 GMT
I suggest you speak to an attorney, you will discover
you are wrong once again.  If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle
is stolen and involved in an accident you are responsible, just
as you are if it was licensed and insured.  The only difference
is you do not have insurance to cover your liability as you do
when is it insured.  At least if you are insured the insurance
company can be surrogated, if the thief is insured, or
has assets.  ;)

mike hunt

> > Just goes to show one can not enlighten one who is
> > not even willing to talk to their own insurance agent.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> property and a thief steals it, the owner of that car is NOT
> legally responsible for what that thief does with that car.
Rod Speed - 07 Sep 2004 20:55 GMT
>I suggest you speak to an attorney, you
> will discover you are wrong once again.

Wrong.

> If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle is stolen
> and involved in an accident you are responsible,
> just as you are if it was licensed and insured.

Wrong.

> The only difference is you do not have insurance
> to cover your liability as you do when is it insured.

Wrong.

> At least if you are insured the insurance company can
> be surrogated, if the thief is insured, or  has assets.  ;)

Not a f.cking clue. Pathetically senile silly old pig ignorant fart.

>> > Just goes to show one can not enlighten one who is
>> > not even willing to talk to their own insurance agent.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> property and a thief steals it, the owner of that car is NOT
>> legally responsible for what that thief does with that car.
Andy - 08 Sep 2004 00:47 GMT
> I suggest you speak to an attorney, you will discover
> you are wrong once again.  If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> mike hunt

Although its been a few years since I practiced, I am an attorney.

I am not familiar with any basis for holding the owner of a stolen
vehicle liable for damage caused by a thief driving the stolen car.
To be held liable for damage in an accident you have to have committed
some negligent act, like driven the care carelessly, or negligently
loaned the car to a 13 year old who was so drunk he could hardly walk.
The owner of a car never has liability for an accident simply because
he is the owner.

I also know this from personal experience.  I was in an accident
caused by a someone driving a stolen car. I did not collect from the
car owner's insurance, I collected from my own insurance under the
uninsured motorist coverage (yet another reason to have it).  If I did
not have the uninsured motorist coverage I would have been SoL on my
personal injuries (damage to the car was covered by collision).

Andy
Andy - 08 Sep 2004 00:50 GMT
> I suggest you speak to an attorney, you will discover
> you are wrong once again.  If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> mike hunt

The owner of a car is never liable for an accident caused by the thief
after it is stolen. Doesn't matter if the car is registered,
unregistered, insured or uninsured. Its basic tort law (yes, I am an
attorney); you have to commit a negligent act before you can be held
liable.

Andy
David Jensen - 08 Sep 2004 01:38 GMT
In misc.transport.road, idontcheckthismailbox@yahoo.com (Andy) wrote in
<95a8a65b.0409071550.6c7ab3dd@posting.google.com>:
>> I suggest you speak to an attorney, you will discover
>> you are wrong once again.  If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>attorney); you have to commit a negligent act before you can be held
>liable.

So, if you happen to have left your keys in the car, on the street, most
juries would consider that to be a negligent act, particularly if the
thief is young.
Rod Speed - 08 Sep 2004 02:08 GMT
> In misc.transport.road, idontcheckthismailbox@yahoo.com (Andy) wrote in
> <95a8a65b.0409071550.6c7ab3dd@posting.google.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> juries would consider that to be a negligent act, particularly if the
> thief is young.

Bullshit.
David Jensen - 08 Sep 2004 03:11 GMT
In misc.transport.road, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
<2q74d2Fsabc6U1@uni-berlin.de>:

>> In misc.transport.road, idontcheckthismailbox@yahoo.com (Andy) wrote in
>> <95a8a65b.0409071550.6c7ab3dd@posting.google.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Bullshit.

No, it's not. However much we would like the actual actor to be the only
one held responsible for damage to others, we have a long history in
American jurisprudence of looking for negligent behavior of others that
happened to contribute to the harm. One such form of negligence is to
leave a car unlocked with the keys in. Some states may not allow such an
act of negligence to be considered, but others may. In particular, if a
13, 14 or 15 year old child were the one that took the vehicle for a
joyride and someone was harmed because of it, I would be hard pressed to
think of an American jurisdiction in which the owner could not be held
partially responsible for the harm to the third-party victims (though
most states won't allow the joyrider to collect if he suffers harm in
the ensuing crash).
Rod Speed - 08 Sep 2004 04:03 GMT
>> David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote
>>>> MajorDomo@mailcity.com wrote

>>>>> I suggest you speak to an attorney, you will discover you
>>>>> are wrong once again.  If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>>>> when is it insured.  At least if you are insured the insurance
>>>>> company can be surrogated, if the thief is insured, or has assets.  ;)

Pathetically senile, pig ignorant, silly old fart.

>>>> The owner of a car is never liable for an accident caused
>>>> by the thief after it is stolen. Doesn't matter if the car is
>>>> registered, unregistered, insured or uninsured.

It can do if its insured, if the state law
says that the insurance has to cover that.

>>>> Its basic tort law

It is indeed.

>>>> (yes, I am an attorney); you have to commit
>>>> a negligent act before you can be held liable.

Correct.

>>> So, if you happen to have left your keys in the car,
>>> on the street, most juries would consider that to be
>>> a negligent act, particularly if the thief is young.

>> Bullshit.

> No, it's not.

Yes, it is, complete and utter pig ignorant bullshit.

> However much we would like the actual actor to be the only
> one held responsible for damage to others, we have a long
> history in American jurisprudence of looking for negligent
> behavior of others that happened to contribute to the harm.

You aint established that that is negligence.

And it aint relevant to the original being discussed
anyway, when the keys werent left in the car.

> One such form of negligence is to leave a car unlocked with the keys in.

Wrong.

> Some states may not allow such an act of
> negligence to be considered, but others may.

You aint established that it is negligence. Just CLAIMED that.

> In particular, if a 13, 14 or 15 year old child were the one that
> took the vehicle for a joyride and someone was harmed because
> of it, I would be hard pressed to think of an American jurisdiction
> in which the owner could not be held partially responsible for the
> harm to the third-party victims (though most states won't allow
> the joyrider to collect if he suffers harm in the ensuing crash).

Complete and utter pig ignorant bullshit.

And it aint relevant to the original being discussed
anyway, when the keys werent left in the car.
adf32e - 08 Sep 2004 05:37 GMT
you must be a member of the Bush administration. Iit seems you believe that
simply repeating a claim & attacking others who tell you you're wrong makes
something true.
Rod Speed - 08 Sep 2004 06:49 GMT
> you must be a member of the Bush administration.

Have you even the remotest concept of how many who know
damned well that I'm not are pissing themselves laughing at
what a spectacular fool you have just made of yourself, child ?
adf32e - 08 Sep 2004 18:17 GMT
no, sorry, i'm not.

btw, could you please tell me how i'm supposed to react?  Presumably i'm
supposed to feel like i've been 'put in my place' or something similar, i
don't know -- anger?  I'm not feeling it, so any guidance would be helpful.

thanks

> Have you even the remotest concept of how many who know
> damned well that I'm not are pissing themselves laughing at
> what a spectacular fool you have just made of yourself, child ?
Rod Speed - 08 Sep 2004 20:44 GMT
Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
and fooled absolutely no one at all. As always.
Joel M. Eichen - 08 Sep 2004 20:51 GMT
How do you know he gutless?

Joel

>Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
>and fooled absolutely no one at all. As always.
Joel M. Eichen - 08 Sep 2004 21:00 GMT
>How do you know he gutless?

I mean "he is gutless?"

Kemo Sabe, I speak like TONTO but I am not.

>Joel
>
>>Some gutless fuckwit desperately cowering behind
>>and fooled absolutely no one at all. As always.
adf32e - 09 Sep 2004 00:05 GMT
it's one of his standard half-dozen or so insults.  Look him up on Google...
dozens & dozens of pages of him telling people they're wrong & gutless
fuckwits.  charming guy.

> >How do you know he gutless?
>
> I mean "he is gutless?"
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 08 Sep 2004 15:46 GMT
Nice try, 'squire.'  If what you say were true then the insurance
would be on the driver, not the vehicle.
I.E. if I were driving your car then I would be liable
not the owner. LOL

mike hunt

> > I suggest you speak to an attorney, you will discover
> > you are wrong once again.  If your unlicensed, uninsured, vehicle
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Andy
Joel M. Eichen - 06 Sep 2004 23:05 GMT
>> Your opinion is still wrong,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>No 'friend' of someone as pig ignorant as you, fart.

You have a way with words .........

Extremely eloquent.
Tony - 04 Sep 2004 02:08 GMT
<BenDover@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> You have a lot to learn about liability it appears my young
> friend.  One of my trucks was stolen from one of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> mike hunt

Could be a State issue?  I had a totally different experience.  Had a car
sideswipe me going the opposite direction, a hit and run.  I turned around,
got plate #.  Police told me they can't cite a vehicle, it has to be a
person.  Prosecutor called me, asked me the name of person that hit me.
Long story short, if you can't put a name behind the wheel, you've got
nothing in this State.  My insurance paid for my damage, but couldn't go
after anyone.  My agent told me the same thing the prosecutor said, basicly
it's who is behind the wheel is the one responsible.

Been involved in several accidents.  In this State, insurance will not pay
up unless the policy holder authorizes payment. Which in your case, you
would've had to authorize payment in order for your insurance to pay a 3M
claim.
Rod Speed - 04 Sep 2004 02:41 GMT
> <BenDover@mailcity.com> wrote in message
>> You have a lot to learn about liability it appears my young
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> when you choose to offer your opinion on
>> a subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge   ;)

> Could be a State issue?

Nope, not one state is stupid enough to hold the owner of
the car liable for what a criminal does when it steals the car.

No voters would ever buy anything so utterly ludicrous.

> I had a totally different experience.  Had a car sideswipe
> me going the opposite direction, a hit and run.  I turned
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> short, if you can't put a name behind the wheel,
> you've got nothing in this State.

Some states do have different detail for parking tickets
and speeding fines when the speeding car is caught on
camera systems etc. The owner of the car gets to either
say who was likely driving it at the time, or pay the fine.

> My insurance paid for my damage, but couldn't go after
> anyone.  My agent told me the same thing the prosecutor said,
> basicly it's who is behind the wheel is the one responsible.

The main exception is in situations where the owner does
allow a child of theirs to drive the car etc, particularly if
the child isnt legally entitled to drive the car. In THAT
situation the owner can be liable. Or more strictly the
invididual who allowed the child to drive the car, and
that may not neccessarily be the owner.

> Been involved in several accidents.  In this State, insurance
> will not pay up unless the policy holder authorizes payment.
> Which in your case, you would've had to authorize payment
> in order for your insurance to pay a 3M claim.

Some states do have various detail on which insurance gets to pay.

Thats an entirely separate issue to whether the owner is liable
if say the car isnt insured in a state where that is not required.
George - 04 Sep 2004 12:43 GMT
> Could be a State issue?  I had a totally different experience.  Had a car
> sideswipe me going the opposite direction, a hit and run.  I turned around,
> got plate #.  Police told me they can't cite a vehicle, it has to be a
> person.  Prosecutor called me, asked me the name of person that hit me.
> Long story short, if you can't put a name behind the wheel, you've got
> nothing in this State.

In PA the police would be required to run the plate # and interview the
listed owner. If the owner could/would not identify the driver then they
would be cited as if they did it.

>My insurance paid for my damage, but couldn't go
> after anyone.  My agent told me the same thing the prosecutor said, basicly
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would've had to authorize payment in order for your insurance to pay a 3M
> claim.

Most insurance policies have you agree to subrogation so you don't have a
choice. I didn't realize some states prevented that.
OracleofBugtussle - 04 Sep 2004 19:21 GMT
> Could be a State issue?  I had a totally different experience.  Had a car
> sideswipe me going the opposite direction, a hit and run.  I turned around,
> got plate #.  Police told me they can't cite a vehicle, it has to be a
> person.  Prosecutor called me, asked me the name of person that hit me.
> Long story short, if you can't put a name behind the wheel, you've got
> nothing in this State.

But even if you saw the person behind the wheel, how could you
know their name, assuming they were a stranger (which would
be likely)?  This sounds like lazy law enforcement.

And in GA where I live, I believe they would require a witness (other
than you) in order to legally have this pursued.  I believe having
the police interview the registered owner would be a great idea,
as someone mentioned was the case in their state.

--
Oracle
Tony - 04 Sep 2004 21:06 GMT
>"OracleofBugtussle" wrote
>> "Tony"wrote
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> know their name, assuming they were a stranger (which would
> be likely)?  This sounds like lazy law enforcement.

I totally agree.  I was ticked they wouldn't investigate further.  One of
the examples both the officer & prosecutor's office gave me was they've been
there before in these situations.  A typical example of what happens is the
registered car owner says they were asleep, someone must've taken their
keys, wrecked their car and then put the keys and car back b/4 they woke up.
I can't remember the long list the prosecutor gave me, bottomline was they
didn't want to waste valuable man hours on a case like this.  I can't blame
them in some respects, but I pay taxes just like most citizens do.
MikrHunt@mailcity.com - 06 Sep 2004 17:34 GMT
Police can only cite the owner of a car for a NON moving
violation, like parking tickets.  Hit and run is a moving
violation.  The police can NOT cite a 'vehicle' for a moving
violation, they can only site the driver of the vehicle.  Agreed
there are differences from state to state, but the basics of
insurance do not change. The six eastern states, in which my
company operated, the insurance regulations are virtually the
same.    Read your policy.  You are required to notify your
company of ALL accidents within a very limited time, like 30
days, or they can refuse to cover you losses.  The reason is they
want the opportunity to defend THEMSELVES because they must pay
of any judgment against you, they even pay all of the legal
fees.  Call you agent and become informed WBMA.  By the way why
in the world would one even WANT to deny authorization to 'allow'
ones insurance company to pay a claim?  That does not even make
sense.  If they don't pay, you would have to pay the judgment.  
 

mike

> <BenDover@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> > You have a lot to learn about liability it appears my young
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> would've had to authorize payment in order for your insurance to pay a 3M
> claim.
avoidspam@invalid.com - 06 Sep 2004 17:46 GMT
>Police can only cite the owner of a car for a NON moving
>violation, like parking tickets.  Hit and run is a moving
>violation.  The police can NOT cite a 'vehicle' for a moving
>violation, they can only site the driver of the vehicle.  Agreed
>there are differences from state to state, but the basics of
>insurance do not change.

Where the MV statutes authorize its use, the owner of a vehicle may be
cited and subject to a fine for specific "moving violations" i.e.
failure to stop for a traffic signal or speeding, based on a
photographic record of the infraction!
MikrHunt@mailcity.com - 06 Sep 2004 18:29 GMT
IF the photograph includes an identifiable driver, and then only
in a few states is the picture 'probable cause.'

mike hunt

> >Police can only cite the owner of a car for a NON moving
> >violation, like parking tickets.  Hit and run is a moving
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> failure to stop for a traffic signal or speeding, based on a
> photographic record of the infraction!
Rod Speed - 06 Sep 2004 22:30 GMT
> IF the photograph includes an identifiable driver, and then only
> in a few states is the picture 'probable cause.'

Wrong. As always. Pathetically senile.

>> >Police can only cite the owner of a car for a NON moving
>> >violation, like parking tickets.  Hit and run is a moving
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> failure to stop for a traffic signal or speeding, based on a
>> photographic record of the infraction!
Victor Smith - 06 Sep 2004 19:11 GMT
>>Police can only cite the owner of a car for a NON moving
>>violation, like parking tickets.  Hit and run is a moving
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>failure to stop for a traffic signal or speeding, based on a
>photographic record of the infraction!

My teen daughter's friend received in the mail such a photographic
record, taken as she ran a red, with my daughter her passenger.
You could see their joyous little faces in the photo, yakking and
laughing.  Looking at that photo you could almost hear "girls just
want to have fun" playing in the background.
Little did they know.

--Vic
John F. Carr - 06 Sep 2004 18:25 GMT
>Police can only cite the owner of a car for a NON moving
>violation, like parking tickets.

Depends on the state.  Connecticut law makes the owner presumptively
responsible for many violations, including reckless driving.
Massachusetts allows ownership to be used as evidence but ownership
is not generally sufficient proof of criminal responsibility.

Signature

   John Carr (jfc@mit.edu)

Dan Lanciani - 04 Sep 2004 07:33 GMT
| Technically, I suppose
| our health insurer has a right to refuse to pay for accident-related
| stuff, but so far (knock on wood) that hasn't been a problem.

This is a disturbing thought.  Is there something specific in your policy
that might allow for this or is there a general principle involved?

                Dan Lanciani
                ddl@danlan.*com
Michael D. Adams - 04 Sep 2004 17:25 GMT
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Dan Lanciani <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote:

: | Technically, I suppose
: | our health insurer has a right to refuse to pay for accident-related
: | stuff, but so far (knock on wood) that hasn't been a problem.
:
: This is a disturbing thought.  Is there something specific in your policy
: that might allow for this or is there a general principle involved?

Unsure of the policy, since health insurance is through my work, and
therefore I don't see anything (unless I request it) other than the
deduction on my paystub.

That statement is conjecture based on the dollars I see in the claim
files I review as part of my job.

Signature

Michael D. Adams         --  Windsor, Connecticut
mda-usenet@triskele.com  --  http://www.triskele.com

The Real Bev - 05 Sep 2004 05:44 GMT
> In misc.consumers.frugal-living Dan Lanciani <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote:
> :
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> therefore I don't see anything (unless I request it) other than the
> deduction on my paystub.

You mean you know NOTHING about what your policy covers?  Did you just
fall off the turnip truck this morning?  Acquire and read those
documents immediately.  

> That statement is conjecture based on the dollars I see in the claim
> files I review as part of my job.

So you review the claims of others but haven't the vaguest idea about
what your own coverage is?  I suspect Rod Speed will offer a suitable
comment, saving me the trouble.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
*******************************************
"Let them all go to hell, except Cave 76"
                             -- Mel Brooks

BenDover@mailcity.com - 03 Sep 2004 20:02 GMT
You are applying two different things to the same coverage.  I
can understand why, it is a bit convoluted. If you live in a
state with no fault insurance laws, the insurance of the owner of
the vehicle in which any person is ridding pays the hospital
bills up to the policies personal injury limit, say 15K.  If a
person in YOUR vehicle owns an automobile, that is insured, his
insurance then cover his hospital bills to his policy limit then
YOUR policy kicks in.  There is no subrogation on those bills.
If however you  hit a motorcycle on which no fault insurance is
NOT available, than that persons medical insurance will pay the
cost, the same as if you lived in any state that does not have no
fault insurance.  In that case his medical insurance carrier will
be eligible for subrogation.  Liability covers all other
liability resulting from any accident of which you are deemed to
be ay fault.  I. E. the car, house, or utility pole you hit and
any personal inquiry awards..  In your example, 100K/300K is NOT
per person, as you may believe. It is 300k accumulative.  If one
person obtained a judgment of 300K, you policy would pay.  If
three people obtained a judgment  of 100K each your policy would
pay the total.  IF however two people obtained a judgment of 200K
the first person to get paid by you insurance company would get
200K BUT the second would only get 100K.  He than could go after
your assets for the 100k balance. That is one reason lawyers will
tell you not to place ownership of your vehicles in your and you
wife's names.  A winning litigant can not take half of the things
you both own as 'tenants in the entireties' like your home, bank
account or other vehicles.  

Personally I am well off with many assets so therefore I carry
$1,000,000 liability.   The cost is really not that much more
annually than 300K.  Because I own more than one vehicle, I have
my vehicle coverage 'stacked' as well, which in effect doubles
the individual vehicles coverage by allowing the coverage on one
vehicle to cover the other, if needed.  To protect myself from
others I also carry underinsured and uninsured motorist
coverage's.  In the event of a major judgment against me I carry
a 5,000,000 umbrella policy that covers any judgment above my
insurance limits on my cars, or my properties or the collectible
vehicles I own that is covered on another policy.  I is important
to take the time to speak to your agent and make sure the
coverage you have is the coverage you NEED, for your situation.  

I belong to a motorcycle club in PA.  When I joined not one
member of that club realized that PA's no vault laws did NOT
apply to motorcycles driver, only their passenger and many riders
where riding uninsured because they didn't have medical insurance

mike hunt

> I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
> what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> --
> Oracle
OracleofBugtussle - 04 Sep 2004 19:38 GMT
<snipped for space>
>  In your example, 100K/300K is NOT
> per person, as you may believe. It is 300k accumulative.  If one
> person obtained a judgment of 300K, you policy would pay.

No, even though it doesn't make sense or seem fair to me either,
my agent told me that the coverage would pay only $100K max PER
PERSON, per accident, and 300K max per accident.  So, apparently,
the policy would never pay more than 100K to any one person.
Therefore, the only way they'd ever have to pay out the full 300K would
be if at least three people were injured.  This appears to be the case,
although, as I said, it doesn't seem right.  So if I were to hit a lone
pedestrian, the policy would pay out only $100k, regardless of the extent of
injuries.

> That is one reason lawyers will
> tell you not to place ownership of your vehicles in your and you
> wife's names.  A winning litigant can not take half of the things
> you both own as 'tenants in the entireties' like your home, bank
> account or other vehicles.  

But if a winning litigant can't take half, as you say, then wouldn't
it be wise TO place ownership in both names?   Did you mean "or"
instead of "and" above?  I don't know for sure, but it seems I heard
somewhere that a person's home cannot be taken away as the result
of a lawsuit.  I wonder if this is just wishful thinking on whomever
told me this...

--
Oracle
Steve - 04 Sep 2004 20:56 GMT
>>  In your example, 100K/300K is NOT
>> per person, as you may believe. It is 300k accumulative.  If one
>> person obtained a judgment of 300K, you policy would pay.

This is likely wrong.  If it's a typical auto policy, the limit above
represents $100k per person and $300k per accident.
MikrHunt@mailcity.com - 06 Sep 2004 18:03 GMT
Depends on the coverage one buys.  Companies that exist on
covering those that just want minimum coverage to meet state
requirement, make that distinction.  On the other hand 'Typical'
auto policies, as you call, them do not.  Sort of like
deductibles.  The so called lower cost companies bunch collision
and comprehensive coverage's together with a $500 or $1,000
deductible.  Others offer $500 or $1,000 on the collision but as
low as $50 or even ZERO deductible on the Comprehensive coverage,
for less than $100 more in annual premium.  You get what you buy.

mike hunt

> >>  In your example, 100K/300K is NOT
> >> per person, as you may believe. It is 300k accumulative.  If one
> >> person obtained a judgment of 300K, you policy would pay.
>
> This is likely wrong.  If it's a typical auto policy, the limit above
> represents $100k per person and $300k per accident.
MikrHunt@mailcity.com - 06 Sep 2004 17:53 GMT
If one owns two vehicles and both vehicles are in both names as
is their home and other assets than all of their jointly owned
assets are at risk, if the judgment exceeds the coverage on the
vehicles.  If one of the two cars and one is in one name and the
other is in the spouse or they own one car and it is in either
ONE name
jointly held assets are NOT at risk.  

Depends on the state of course or the type of coverage one buys
is 'stacked.'  The 300k is payable to one person up to 300K if
you coverage was issued as 300/100K.  If your coverage is issued
as 100K/300k then it is only covered UP TO to 100K for one
person.  Talk to your agent.  The difference in premium between
he two types is most likely less than $20 a year.

mike

> <snipped for space>
> >  In your example, 100K/300K is NOT
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> --
> Oracle
OLDCARS - 10 Sep 2004 05:49 GMT
> You are applying two different things to the same coverage.  I
> can understand why, it is a bit convoluted. If you live in a
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> > --
> > Oracle
Mr. Hunt is lucky to live in a state where he is allowed to "stack"
the auto policies. In some states Kansas for example no matter how
many cars you  insure you can only use one policy per accident (you
can pick which one) it almost seems fradulent for them to accept the
premiums on the rest of the vehicles when you can't use them all.
The Real Bev - 10 Sep 2004 06:48 GMT
> Mr. Hunt is lucky to live in a state where he is allowed to "stack"
> the auto policies. In some states Kansas for example no matter how
> many cars you  insure you can only use one policy per accident (you
> can pick which one) it almost seems fradulent for them to accept the
> premiums on the rest of the vehicles when you can't use them all.

What gripes me is that if you own six cars you have to pay for six
different liability policies even though you can only drive one car at a
time.  A proper system would just charge you for one policy per driver
at the rate charged for the highest car.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev  
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.

SHARX - 10 Sep 2004 11:28 GMT
|| OLDCARS wrote:
||
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|| at a time.  A proper system would just charge you for one policy per
|| driver at the rate charged for the highest car.

How many people are legally ALLOWED to drive your 6 vehicles? Is NO ONE
allowed to drive ANY of the vehicles save for YOURSELF? I think not.

|| --
|| Cheers,
|| Bev
|| oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|| If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.
MajorDomo@mailcity.com - 10 Sep 2004 20:28 GMT
Automobile policies are written to insure the liability of the
OWNER of the vehicle(s).  Who is driving when the liability is
incurred is immaterial.  The ONLY reason drivers must be listed
on the policy is to determine the rate you will be charged, based
on their driving records, age, etc.   For instance, on my company
trucks no particular drivers are listed.  Any employee can drive
them.  If you have a child that reaches driving age and you
notify the issuer they will adjust your rate upward because of
the likelihood a new inexperienced driver will have an accident.
If you do NOT list the new driver you will still be covered for
any liability they may incur but the insurance company will most
likely not renew your policy, or can even terminate it, for not
informing them of the additional risk.

mike hunt

> How many people are legally ALLOWED to drive your 6 vehicles? Is NO ONE
> allowed to drive ANY of the vehicles save for YOURSELF? I think not.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> || oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> || If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.
The Real Bev - 11 Sep 2004 06:18 GMT
> Automobile policies are written to insure the liability of the
> OWNER of the vehicle(s).  Who is driving when the liability is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> likely not renew your policy, or can even terminate it, for not
> informing them of the additional risk.

See below.

> mike hunt
>
> > How many people are legally ALLOWED to drive your 6 vehicles? Is NO ONE
> > allowed to drive ANY of the vehicles save for YOURSELF? I think not.

Suppose it's true.  I have a small car for commuting, a 4WD pickup for
backcountry, a van for vacations, a Corvette for fun, a station wagon
for family trips (parents and siblings, none of whom live with me), and
a beater to drive to the parts store when the other five aren't
working.  I live alone.  Nobody else is allowed to drive my cars.  I can
drive only one at a time.  Why should I pay for six liability policies,
rather than one to cover me in whichever car I drive?

Signature

Cheers,
Bev    
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves."           -- Anon.

SoCalMike - 11 Sep 2004 08:06 GMT
> Suppose it's true.  I have a small car for commuting, a 4WD pickup for
> backcountry, a van for vacations, a Corvette for fun, a station wagon
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> drive only one at a time.  Why should I pay for six liability policies,
> rather than one to cover me in whichever car I drive?

i know what youre saying, but you should at least have a sweet multi-car
discount.
The Real Bev - 12 Sep 2004 01:36 GMT
> > Suppose it's true.  I have a small car for commuting, a 4WD pickup for
> > backcountry, a van for vacations, a Corvette for fun, a station wagon
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> i know what youre saying, but you should at least have a sweet multi-car
> discount.

What, 10% off on 6 policies?  Not all that sweet compared to paying 1/6
of the multi-car-discountless total.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
===========================================================
An organizer for the "Million Agoraphobics March" expressed
disappointment in the turnout for last weekend's event.

avoidspam@invalid.com - 11 Sep 2004 20:17 GMT
>Why should I pay for six liability policies,
>rather than one to cover me in whichever car I drive?

Depending on where you live in order to be able to legally register
each of them.

Because the possibility exist that one or more of them may be driven
by someone you allow to drive them - you should only have one policy
with differing levels of liability per vehicle depending n your
assessment of its potential for risk, BUT all vehicles usually have to
carry the level of liability insurance required by your state (if they
require insurance for registration).
The Real Bev - 11 Sep 2004 06:15 GMT
> || OLDCARS wrote:
> ||
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> How many people are legally ALLOWED to drive your 6 vehicles? Is NO ONE
> allowed to drive ANY of the vehicles save for YOURSELF? I think not.

Two drivers, self and spouse.  Hence TWO liability insurance policies.
I thought I was reasonably clear.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev    
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves."           -- Anon.

avoidspam@invalid.com - 11 Sep 2004 20:12 GMT
>Two drivers, self and spouse.  Hence TWO liability insurance policies.
>I thought I was reasonably clear.

Why 2 policies?

I have 2 vehicles and we are two drivers (myself and spouse) one
policy with listed liability coverage for each vehicle - for any
liability damages they may be involved in when driven by either of us
or anyone we authorize to operate them!
SHARX - 10 Sep 2004 11:29 GMT
|| OLDCARS wrote:
||
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|| at a time.  A proper system would just charge you for one policy per
|| driver at the rate charged for the highest car.

Never heard of multi-vehicle discounts? Package discounts for having BOTH
house AND auto insurance at same company? Loyalty discounts for staying with
same company? Experienced driver discounts? The list goes on and on.

|| --
|| Cheers,
|| Bev
|| oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|| If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.
The Real Bev - 11 Sep 2004 06:21 GMT
> || OLDCARS wrote:
> ||
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> house AND auto insurance at same company? Loyalty discounts for staying with
> same company? Experienced driver discounts? The list goes on and on.

Yes.  I have all those.  Why should my husband and I have three
liability policies on our three vehicles when two would cover us in
whichever vehicle each of us happened to be driving.  We used to have
three more vehicles.  Why should we then have had six policies instead
of two?

Are you stupid or just a tool of the insurance company?

Signature

Cheers,
Bev    
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Screw the end users. If they want good software,
let them write it themselves."           -- Anon.

Jeff W - 03 Sep 2004 22:24 GMT
> I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
> what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> is average?  A lot of critters in my state have traditionally had
> NONE.

The laws for coverage varies widely by state.  I currently work in an
unnamed insurance office.  All I do everyday is process medical bills.
By the 100's of thousands, just for my state only. It's a huge
production, and it takes a small forest to keep our paper stocks
supplied(or a tractor trailer every week or so).  It's the only
business I know of or place I've worked in with an infinite amount of
work and expansion.  It's really disgusting on what this translates to
for the state of affairs on transporatation and the likes.  And this
is just medical bills I know of.  There's more "accidents"(notice the
radio doesn't even use this word anymore) that don't require medical,
just collision.  but you know that by the rows of autobody shops on
streets.
I also get bills for ambulances, lifeflights, etc.  I think the
minimum in this state is 10k protection, but if you get airlifted out,
that's a cool 10,000 dollars right there.  They don't do that for
free!  And the hospital expenses are exponential after that(if it's
that bad, in the 100's of grands).  I doubt this person will ever pay
the insurance company enough money in coverage that it will equal the
hundreds of thousands this costs.  Which is really why insurance is a
tax just like the lottery.  I'm subsidizing all the you know whats
playing bumper cars.  Same way that i'm subsidizing the prisons if i
never step inside one.

Yes, I also get mail and such from other insurers, lots of lawsuit
mail, and something called subro claims when the other guy is at
fault.  Everyone goes after each other.  It's a big process.

It's a pretty complex and well played out scenario that happens
MILLIONS of times each day.  I don't have a state license, so i don't
know the ins and outs and all the details and what you need etc.,
though it wouldn't be valid in your state, but the basis and the
workings are all the same.

We should form a small elite club, the minority group that hasn't
wrecked anyone elses car yet.   Remember, even though a small greedy
selfish group on here will tell you otherwise at your expense, getting
in a car it he most dangerous thing you will ever do in a day.  And it
will keep a large army of us with as much work and overtime(while we
still get it) until the end of time.  Though Bush has mentioned in
some address he wants our job automated(though some companies already
process all this in Africa right now anyway).
Matt - 03 Sep 2004 22:42 GMT
> Would my bodily injury liability coverage pick the person's
> hospital bill (up to its limits), or does the injured person's
> personal medical insurance company usually pay for this, assuming
> the person *has* medical insurance?

You are liable & responsible for the damages.

Excepting "no-fault" or similiar provisions, even if their insurer
pays initially, the insurer can then sue you for reimbursement.

I get $100,000 in hospital bills from an accident you're at fault for.

You have $20,000 bodily injury insurance.

I have $40,000 bodily injury insurance with un/underinsured coverage.

My auto insurance pays upto the $40k amount, then turns around and
sues your insurance company to fork over the $20k, and sues you to
fork over the other $20k.

My health insurance pays the bills between $40k and $100k...now
assuming it had limits and co-pays and such that meant it only paid
$40k of that $60k, I'm left with $20k of bills (and liens from the
hospital, etc on my property).

I go to my attorney, they talk with the health insurer's attorney.  If
you have enough assests, they join the auto insurer and sue you for
$40k and I piggy back onto that case suing you for $20k.  So you're
now being sued for $20k to my auto insurance, $40k to my health
insurance, and $20k to me personally to cover the the $80k in bills
your insurance wasn't enough to cover.

If your only assest was the car you just wrecked, not a lot of time is
going to be wasted on it.  If you own a home with $100k in
equity...ching ching, can you say "Real Estate Agent."  We'll take our
$80k and if we're nice and didn't decide to bing you for pain &
suffering and such, you get to walk away with $20k from the home you
used to own.

You are responsible for the damages.  If you have the ability to pay,
you'll be made to pay.

---------
Next year I'm planning to add a general liability insurance on top of
my auto & homeowners.  300/300 on the auto, and 300k homeowner's
liability already.  The general liability will give me protection to
$1M after the auto and/or homeowners has paid...and covers things not
directly related to them, say I really, really screw up as a volunteer
Fire Captain.  The G.L. is pretty cheap considering most things would
be under auto or homeowners already.
Jeff W - 04 Sep 2004 18:46 GMT
> > Would my bodily injury liability coverage pick the person's
> > hospital bill (up to its limits), or does the injured person's
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Fire Captain.  The G.L. is pretty cheap considering most things would
> be under auto or homeowners already.

I would be interested in seeing a list of the minimum coverages in all
the states if there was one available.  What I see in Florida vs
georgia and alabama vary widely it seems.
Steve - 04 Sep 2004 18:51 GMT
>I would be interested in seeing a list of the minimum coverages in all
>the states if there was one available.  What I see in Florida vs
>georgia and alabama vary widely it seems.

http://auto.insurance.com/insurance_options/auto/auto_enough_state_by_state.asp

http://personalinsure.about.com/cs/vehicleratings/a/blautominimum.htm
Charles Quinn - 06 Sep 2004 18:27 GMT
>I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
>what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>is average?  A lot of critters in my state have traditionally had
>NONE.

Never would a for profit company seek compensation from a party that caused
them great expense.

Now if you frame the anti-argument this way, you can tell how the sceanario
would play out.

So yes, you insurance company would be hit up, and you personally. Having
proper coverage would be advisable. Also, taking a drivers course would be
advisable.

As for the level of coverage, it is dependent on how much assets you have to
cover. Live in a rented apartment and own a junker, live in a double wide with
two junkers on blocks out front, or live in a mcmansion with a rolls royce? To
decide on coverage you need to factor in the risk of what you would lose, to
the price of the extra coverage.

Charles

Signature

Charles
The significant problems we face cannot be solved
at the same level of thinking we were at when we
created them.  Albert Einstein

Jeff W - 09 Sep 2004 01:43 GMT
> >I've never had a car accident, so I have no real experience with
> >what I'm wondering about.  Let's say that I cause bodily injury
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Charles

I forgot.  There's something called UM, uninsured motorists. Again I'm
not licensed, so I can't summize any details.

ANd to answer the first question.  My co-workers in the surrounding
cubes(which are a little smaller than the parking spaces their cars
reside in!).  They print and sort and do whatever to hundreds of
checks per day.  :)
 
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