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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / January 2005Cold nights cause a temperature-dependent max achievable speed
This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have done on the car. Lately I have to drive on a daily basis, and this winter the problem became a royal pain. The colder the night was, the lower will be the maximum speed I can get to. At that max threshold speed the car would buck, jerk as if ignition is not happening, and can even stall, if forced. The oddity is that warming up the engine on idle has little effect, compared to driving under max achievable speed. After about 5 minutes of driving, that maximum speed will start increasing, after 5 more minutes it will gain another +10mph, and in about 30 minutes I can drive fine at any speed until next cold night. There are no error codes, starting, idling, stopping, accelerating, going at 80mph are all fine, there's no jerking or stalling other than in the situation described. At warmer weather I won't notice the problem, or that max speed would be around 70mph, where it doesn't bother me so much. This issue survived: * transmission rebuild * engine change * three MAF sensors change * spark system change (plugs & wires) * ICM change (ignition control module) * O2, camshaft, crankshaft sensors change * new catalytic * new injectors * fuel filters change Throughout the years it's as solid as my appetite. And it's as disturbing. Imagine how you wake up in the middle of winter, you need to drive to work, and you aren't able to drive above 20mph for good 5 minutes. Now imagine that you're a police officer, sitting in your vehicle, enjoying your morning doughnut, and then a rusty old car crawles right in front of you at a treacherously low speed, and then you see it again and again, as I make several circles around the area trying to get the car to the speed where I could pull on the highway. This picture can make even the most breakfast-minded detective concerned. I'm looking for any pointers, anything I could try to diagnose what the hell is so profoundly wrong with my otherwise great beast. It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), injection, V6. > This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have > done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), > injection, V6. About the only thing not yet changed out is the fuel pump. Check the pressure at idle when cold. Engine pressure is good, but since my oil pump had been noisy for quite some time, and I had a cheap one handy, replaced the pump, fuel filter, checked for restrictions on filter & fuel line. Everything should be fine with fuel delivery now. Yet the cold temperature/max speed problem persists. Paul wrote: > About the only thing not yet changed out is the fuel pump. > Check the pressure at idle when cold. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), > > injection, V6. > Engine pressure is good, but since my oil pump had been noisy for > quite some time, and I had a cheap one handy, replaced the pump, fuel > filter, checked for restrictions on filter & fuel line. Everything > should be fine with fuel delivery now. > > Yet the cold temperature/max speed problem persists. Doesn't this vehicle have a pump in tank? What is the rail pressure when cold? Does the engine rev high in first and second? > Paul wrote: > > > > About the only thing not yet changed out is the fuel pump. > > Check the pressure at idle when cold. But did you measure the pressure as the other poster suggested? >Engine pressure is good, but since my oil pump had been noisy for >quite some time, and I had a cheap one handy, replaced the pump, fuel [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> > It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >> > injection, V6. If it is a 3.8L, You need a new "reluctor" on the camshaft gear. This is a small magnet that is held by a plastic clip that gives the cam sensor its signal. Every time it rotates around past the cam sensor, the sensor changes voltage and thus makes the "pulse". I have found almost identical symptoms in several cars like yours that need this repair. The magnet over time deteriorates and either falls out of the plastic clip or just turns to mush and the sensor no longer picks it up. > This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have > done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), > injection, V6. > If it is a 3.8L, You need a new "reluctor" on the camshaft gear. > This is a small magnet that is held by a plastic clip that gives the cam [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The magnet over time deteriorates and either falls out of the plastic clip > or just turns to mush and the sensor no longer picks it up. I heard the same suggestion from a dealer a year ago. But why a weak or deteriorated magnet would be so dependent upon the air temperature? >>The magnet over time deteriorates and either falls out of the plastic clip >>or just turns to mush and the sensor no longer picks it up. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But why a weak or deteriorated magnet would be so dependent upon the > air temperature? Certain magnets have been known to change their properties when heated or cooled. It's quite possible that the temperature changes in your car are having a similar, and affecting the behavior of the car as a result.  SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. > >>The magnet over time deteriorates and either falls out of the plastic clip > >>or just turns to mush and the sensor no longer picks it up. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > or cooled. It's quite possible that the temperature changes in your car > are having a similar, and affecting the behavior of the car as a result. For what I'm reading, in such case after cam- or crank- shaft sensor can't read the magnet for 5 seconds, they raise an error code. My car doesn't have relative error codes. However, I was getting CamShaft errors when my ignition module was bad. After I replaced it, everything is clear. Also, wouldn't a different magnet be inherited with the new engine? Would you say that this very interesting problem happens only when overnight temperature is 32 degrees F or below? >> >>The magnet over time deteriorates and either falls out of the plastic >> >>clip [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Also, wouldn't a different magnet be inherited with the new engine? > Would you say that this very interesting problem happens only when overnight > temperature is 32 degrees F or below? Not really. I would say, the spread of temperatures causing the problem would range between 40F(and below) up to 70F. So the warmer it was, the higher would be the speed at which the car would stuck up. OK. That rules out something freezing up then. Can we assume that your machine is not garaged? Assuming that the vehicle is close to a source of electricity have you thought about positioning a 100W light bulb at various places in the engine compartment overnight to keep specific areas warm. Might be able to narrow down the list of suspects that way. >> Would you say that this very interesting problem happens only when >> overnight [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > problem would range between 40F(and below) up to 70F. So the warmer it > was, the higher would be the speed at which the car would stuck up. Can't get your problem off my mind. You mentioned that the engine was replaced in your machine. Which components from the original engine were reused on the replacement engine? > OK. That rules out something freezing up then. Can we assume that your > machine is not garaged? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> problem would range between 40F(and below) up to 70F. So the warmer it >> was, the higher would be the speed at which the car would stuck up. Basically I took everything I replaced for the old engine, and that was expensive: Injectors, Ignition Module, CamShaft sensor, if I'm not mistaken. Today I unscrewed my ECM, and let it stay indoors overnight - no change. Spoke to another mechanic, who mentioned that it's been pretty common that the persistent problems were getting cured by the replacement or upgrade of the PROM. Tonight was pretty warm 48F (+7C), so nothing would be freezing inside, and yet I hit the same 20mph with eventual stalling if I was trying to force beyond that speed. After 5-10 minutes it became slightly better. So ECU is still my primary target. > Can't get your problem off my mind. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >> problem would range between 40F(and below) up to 70F. So the warmer it > >> was, the higher would be the speed at which the car would stuck up. > Basically I took everything I replaced for the old engine, and that was > expensive: Injectors, Ignition Module, CamShaft sensor, if I'm not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > So ECU is still my primary target. Hi... I'd still love to see the results of swapping the MAT sensor... can't shake the feeling that it's "telling" the engine that it's nice and warmed up even though it's really ice cold... But, failing that, before you splurge on the big buck items - how about unplugging enough sensors to force it into limp home mode, see how that performs ? Take care. Ken I like Mr. Weitzel's idea to systematically unplug various sensors to find out if your machine is affected positively. If it runs half way decent with the sensors unplugged then you could plug them in one at a time to find out which one (or ones) is (are) giving you fits. Don't know for sure, but I'm assuming that the engine will not run at all with the crankshaft position sensor unplugged, and if so, then obviously, it cannot be disconnected for purposes of this test (others more knowledgeable are welcome to correct me if my assumption is off base). If it is the ECU as you suspect then your recent experiment showed that the ECU itself is not temperature sensitive so perhaps it is mishandling the output from one of the sensors that is temperature dependent. Could it also be possible for the wiring/connectors to a particular sensor to be affected in some bizarre manner by temperature changes? Grounds, opens, looseness, shorts, and the like. Admittedly if would have to be something really off the wall to be so repeatable. As an aside, I replaced the starter on my daughter's Grand Am three times in very quick succession. After the third one it was time to look further. It turned out that the insulation on two wires in the starter solenoid circuit had rubbed through and the process of replacing the starter disturbed the wires so that the starter worked fine for a short time after each replacement. Long enough for the wires to gradually return to their natural resting position on a metal frame in the engine compartment, after which the machine would not start. Sure hope you're not dealing with something that weird. Back to the subject at hand, it seems to me that your problem falls into one of these three general categories: Reduced/restricted fuel flow Reduced/restricted combustion air flow Restricted exhaust flow Are there others that are eluding me? Please keep us informed. Your problem is intriguing. >> Basically I took everything I replaced for the old engine, and that was >> expensive: Injectors, Ignition Module, CamShaft sensor, if I'm not [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Ken > I like Mr. Weitzel's idea to systematically unplug various sensors to find > out if your machine is affected positively. If it runs half way decent with [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >> >>Ken I haven't heard anybody say that the exhaust has been unhooked to see if the problem would clear, old mufflers and cats will do a lot of tricks. I've seen engines changed out of frustration only to find out later that loose bafuls were packing up against the back of the muffler. Sometimes you will hear the exhaust hiss when you step on the gas hard. ECM & PROM upgrade didn't help. Car is being checked for exhaust problems tomorrow - will post updates later. In the meantime, the weather warmed up, so I'm not hit as badly (or maybe it was an ECM contribution indeed). Current feeling - that something has to warm up enough inside the car, and it has to happen while driving - idle doesn't seem to have such an effect as 5 minues of trying to break through the cut-off speed. > If it is a 3.8L, You need a new "reluctor" on the camshaft gear. > This is a small magnet that is held by a plastic clip that gives the cam [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >>It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >>injection, V6. I began to get this same problem with my 1991 3800 series engine, but it began to be very hard starting as well. But today it will not catch at all, I had a spare coil pack and it made no difference, not sure if ICM was ever replaced, nor the crank sensor. So where is the crank sensor located? >>> This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have >>> done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>> It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >>> injection, V6. Hi... Here I go again... not a mechanic, just an old retired electrical guy who loves tinkering with cars, so pay little attention, please. You've been warned :) Maybe a little advantage in this case... a simpler perspective... You didn't mention the Intake Air Temperature sensor, nor the Coolant Temperature sensor... they should (I think) set codes, but might it be worth changing them on a whim ? Perhaps you didn't get new ones with the engine change. I'm particularly thinking this way because I live in real cold Canada... and if I go out and start my car, let it idle 15 minutes while I have yet one more coffee, the car hardly warms at all... air temperature out the vents stays no better than lukewarm. Yet driving it loaded for a couple of blocks has really nice hot air available. Just a thought... Take care. Ken > If it is a 3.8L, You need a new "reluctor" on the camshaft gear. > This is a small magnet that is held by a plastic clip that gives the cam [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >>It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >>injection, V6. Have you replaced the coil pack? Mine were bad in late summer and engine balked and hesitated when under load. > Have you replaced the coil pack? Mine were bad in late summer and engine > balked and hesitated when under load. Yes, we put a coil pack from a different car in the garage. Changed plugs&wires. But mine ran the same exact way next morning. It was raining today, and I couldn't get even above 15mph, the car stalled 5 times before I could make it to the end of the block. Last machanic checked: * delivery system * idle speed * EFE system including thermo air cleaner * EGR system * individual cylinder condition * primary & secondary ignition circuits * dwell, base timing & timing advance And it all checked out. The top speed I can get to has an almost linear dependency upon air temperature. There are no error codes either. After something magical warms up (or burns up) inside the car, it runs without any problem for the rest of the day. What else could it be? > > If it is a 3.8L, You need a new "reluctor" on the camshaft gear. > > This is a small magnet that is held by a plastic clip that gives the cam [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > >>It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), > >>injection, V6. >>> This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have >>> done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>> It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >>> injection, V6. Hi yet again... Sorry, didn't notice the vehicle age. Shouldn't have said air intake temperature sensor, but rather manifold air temperature sensor for an '88 My apologies. Ken > This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have > done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get to. At that max threshold speed the car would buck, jerk as if > ignition is not happening, and can even stall, if forced. Sounds like the throttle body is icing up.... SignaturePaul '91 XL1200 '89 White Pig "I feel more like I do now than when I got here" > > This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have > > done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sounds like the throttle body is icing up.... That would make sense. How can I diagnose this on my own (to make sure), and how does it get usually fixed? I had a two week break from the eternal struggle due to relocation, but now it's back to morning wrestling. Had my exhaust system evaluated, the car is now humble as a bea, but it's the same insanity in the morning. Next step would be throwing the wire from the oxygen sensor inside the car and gradually unplugging sensor-by-sensor. > This had been a problem for a long while, outliving all repairs I have > done on the car. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), > injection, V6. Good to hear from you. Thought you might have dropped off the face of the earth. Hang in there with the car problem. Hopefully your logical approach will find the culprit(s). >I had a two week break from the eternal struggle due to relocation, but > now it's back to morning wrestling. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >> injection, V6. > Good to hear from you. Thought you might have dropped off the face of the > earth. Hang in there with the car problem. Hopefully your logical approach [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >>>It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), >>>injection, V6. I'm guessing fuel pump. You might consider spray can circut cooler, and spraying suspect components to try to find the heat sensitive one That's a pretty neat idea. I have replaced the fuel pump to another one shortly after the engine change. The old one lasted only one day. So fuel pump itself doesn't seem to be connected to the behavior. Mechanic checked for restrictions in fuel delivery, and said that everything was ok. But cooling parts down to -50C (-60F) could help in tracing down the circuit. Worth the try. > I'm guessing fuel pump. You might consider spray can circut > cooler, and spraying suspect components to try to find the heat > sensitive one Discovered two things: a) ECM reads 100mph when the car actually goes at 30mph b) Fuel pumps runs at the lowest allowed range @32psi (specs define 32-40 range). Negative battery cable was loose, fixed that. A friendly mechanic, who tried to quickly troubleshoot the wounded beast, said that there was a lot of odd rattle in the exhaust system and also fixed some broken ground wires in the vicinity of the transmission. And then left the country. I hope my beautiful car didn't scare him to that extent. I asked him about flushing the exhaust, he said that he never heard of such thing. The weather keeps changing to warmer one, problem is becoming harder to catch. > Good to hear from you. Thought you might have dropped off the face of the > earth. Hang in there with the car problem. Hopefully your logical approach [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > >> It's a 1988 GM with 75K engine, no distributor (coil packs), > >> injection, V6. |
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