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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / December 2004

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Japanese invasion, GM and FORD in trouble

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Hugo Drax - 03 Dec 2004 00:21 GMT
Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
new plants in the US now Chrysler might be getting the hint with its 300
series.

What is wrong with GM and Ford? it even seems that incentives do not help
anymore.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 03 Dec 2004 22:15 GMT
GM is the number the #1 selling brand in the US and the world.
Ford is #2 in the US and the world, what's the problem?  The vast
majority of their vehicles sold in the US carry a '1' as the
first digit of the VIN, meaning they are made in the US of over
70% American parts.  The Camry carries a 'J' made in Japan or a
'5,' meaning they are only assembled in the US and of less than
40% American parts. The only Toyota with a '1' is the Tacoma made
in the GM/Toyota plant in California. Toyota is building a plant
in Mexico to make Tacoma trucks for the US market and a plant in
China to make Camrys for the US. Chrysler is no longer made by an
American corporation.
MB is a German corporation and Chrysler is only a holding company
but least they pay federal corporate taxes to the US. Japanese
corporation do not pay a penny in US federal corporate taxes.
Buy American, as the say, YOUR job depends on it.

mike hunt

> Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
> Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> What is wrong with GM and Ford? it even seems that incentives do not help
> anymore.
Hugo Drax - 18 Dec 2004 13:07 GMT
> GM is the number the #1 selling brand in the US and the world.
> Ford is #2 in the US and the world, what's the problem?  The vast
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> mike hunt

American companies barely pay takes anyways. Besides what american jobs are
we saving, they ship them as fast as they can to India etc.. and this was
happening during record profit years.

All the Camarys etc.. I saw were made right here. even my wifes Accord is
made in Ohio.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 18 Dec 2004 16:30 GMT
Camrys are only 'assembled' in the US of mostly imported parts.
Check the first number of the VIN, it is a '5.'
The accord is one of the few Japanese brand vehicles actually
built in the US of over 70% American parts and has a '1' as the
first number of the VIN.  However Honda like Toyota pay zero in
US corporate income taxes.  Contrary to what you believe GM and
Ford pay millions in US corporate income taxes

mike hunt

> > GM is the number the #1 selling brand in the US and the world.
> > Ford is #2 in the US and the world, what's the problem?  The vast
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> All the Camarys etc.. I saw were made right here. even my wifes Accord is
> made in Ohio.
James C. Reeves - 03 Dec 2004 22:42 GMT
| Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
| Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
| What is wrong with GM and Ford? it even seems that incentives do not help
| anymore.

I don't know what Ford's problem is, but from 1st hand experience I can tell
you that GM apparently refuses to listen to their customers...even on simple
matters with extremely simple solutions.  They just blow you off as some sort
of annoyance instead of the place their livelihood comes from.  A company can't
treat customers that way for very long before they move elsewhere.  I've not
experienced anywhere near that same level of disregard for the customer for
other brand cars I've owned.  I wrote two letters to Tom Lutz at GM a couple
years ago on a matter relating to this subject.  And as I eventually discovered
to be typical GM culture (apparently), the letters were ignored completely.
Not even a "thanks for writing" letter back for either one.  Customers won't
put up with that sort of foolishness when they drop $20K-$40K (or more) on a
product.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 04 Dec 2004 04:08 GMT
> | Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
> | Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> matters with extremely simple solutions.  They just blow you off as some sort
> of annoyance instead of the place their livelihood comes from.

Why are you writing GM directly?  Your supposed to be taken care of
by the GM dealers.

I personally could care less what kind of attitude an auto manufacturer has,
what matters to me is the attitude of the dealerships.

Ted
James C. Reeves - 04 Dec 2004 23:46 GMT
| > | Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As
| US
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
|
| Ted

Last resort. Dealer => BBB => Bob Lutz  (In my case)  But you're normally
right.  The last issue I had at another manufacturer, the Dealer became my
advocate against the manufacturer and works very successfully.
BenDover@mailcity.com - 05 Dec 2004 20:34 GMT
Few owners read the part of their warranty that says 'GM warrant
to its dealers etc."  ;)

mike hunt

> > | Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As
> US
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Ted
Refinish_King1 - 06 Dec 2004 16:49 GMT
Except in the case of a North Central, Pa. dealer I worked for:

He would screw the customers, and the manufacturers. Yes "Manufacturers" he
has 7 lines, would have to get involved.

He is a pompous bag of hot air whom has no respect for his employees nor his
customers.

Refinish King

> Few owners read the part of their warranty that says 'GM warrant
> to its dealers etc."  ;)
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>
>> Ted
Al Bundy - 04 Dec 2004 04:30 GMT
> | Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
> | Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> put up with that sort of foolishness when they drop $20K-$40K (or more) on a
> product.

James, now why would GM thank you for writing when they don't want you
to write them? You're just a pain in the a.s to them.
I know it's like cutting off my nose to spite my face, but in a way I
can't wait to see what they do when the Chinese start sending over
full sized cars for $10K with a 100K mile warranty. It's not that far
fetched really when you see digital multimeters for $6 and watches for
$1 that work OK.
Hugo Drax - 18 Dec 2004 13:11 GMT
> James, now why would GM thank you for writing when they don't want you
> to write them? You're just a pain in the a.s to them.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> fetched really when you see digital multimeters for $6 and watches for
> $1 that work OK.

People will buy them. It is a cycle that is going to wipe out the US.
American companies keep shipping work overseas to appease the shareholder
quest for topping the last Quaterly results resulting in short term penny
profiting and consumers with lower spending dollars will turn to lower
priced products from communist china etc.. to make up for the drop in
discretionary income. You have not seen anything yet, wait till your kids
grandchildren in the future grow up.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 18 Dec 2004 16:01 GMT
Why do you believe companies are being greedy when they choose to
take advantage of the lower costs of complying with government
regulations, as well as lower environmental and labor costs by
producing some of their products in foreign countries to help
them compete with foreign manufactures?  Are consumers also not
being greedy when they are doing the same thing more or more
every day?  If the American consumers expect their to be jobs in
the future for their grandchildren, they better start buying more
products produced in America

mike hunt

> > James, now why would GM thank you for writing when they don't want you
> > to write them? You're just a pain in the a.s to them.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> discretionary income. You have not seen anything yet, wait till your kids
> grandchildren in the future grow up.
J Oat - 20 Dec 2004 00:13 GMT
Mike you hit the nail right on its head.  "products produced in America" and
not necessarily American brand.

a lot of the American brand are not even being produced here.

> Why do you believe companies are being greedy when they choose to
> take advantage of the lower costs of complying with government
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> > discretionary income. You have not seen anything yet, wait till your kids
> > grandchildren in the future grow up.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 20 Dec 2004 17:31 GMT
You are correct. When I buy a vehicle I make sure the first
number of the VIN is a '1,' which means it is made in the US of
more than 70% American parts.  I would not by a Jaguar from Ford
that is made in England or a Dodge Ram made in Mexico of American
parts or a Tundra or Camry that are only assembled in the US of
less than 40% American parts.

When I purchase anything I try to buy those that have a 'Made in
USA' label, when ever possible.  I even go as far as trying to
buy things made in NY, PA, NJ or Delaware, states in which I pay
taxes.  We American should be as smart as the Japanese and buy
the products of our own county from our own manufactures whenever
possible.  I avoid foreign brands that assemble in the US, like
Toyota, because they take all the millions of dollars of profits
they earn in the US out of the US corporate tax free.  

mike hunt

> Mike you hit the nail right on its head.  "products produced in America" and
> not necessarily American brand.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> kids
> > > grandchildren in the future grow up.
Silver Surfer - 20 Dec 2004 23:17 GMT
Right on Mike.

> You are correct. When I buy a vehicle I make sure the first
> number of the VIN is a '1,' which means it is made in the US of
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>> kids
>> > > grandchildren in the future grow up.
Bobby The D - 04 Dec 2004 20:03 GMT
"Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message news:

> Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
> Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> What is wrong with GM and Ford? it even seems that incentives do not help
> anymore.

Troll.
James C. Reeves - 05 Dec 2004 00:04 GMT
| "Hugo Drax" <hugodrax@nsa.gov> wrote in message news:
|
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
|
| Troll.

Actually he is right...look at the sales numbers and ever decreasing market
share.
David - 16 Dec 2004 05:53 GMT
>Wow looks like The Japanese know something the US companies do not. As US
>Auto manufacturers keep sending jobs to Mexico Toyota etc.. keep opening up
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>What is wrong with GM and Ford? it even seems that incentives do not help
>anymore.

One big difference is that the old GM/Ford plants had strong unions to
contend with. Wages/benefits were high.

Newer plants making Toyota's, etc., do not have that problem. Wages
are OK, but not nearly as high as the old US automaker's wages.

It isn't a matter of knowing or not. It's a matter of executing what
you do know.

Take Ford, for instance. They were found to be cheating on their
emissions testing, so they had to either do a massive recall and fix
for their 7.3L diesels, or stop making the 7.3L.

So it hurried up the development of their new 6.0L diesel, and wound
up releasing it almost a full year before they had it working right.
Thousands of complaints, many total returns under lemon laws. Lots of
unhappy Ford customers, and $$$ down the drain.

Mitsubishi had something similar recently. Needed to do a large recall
for a problem in their cars, and tried to hide it under the rug. Big
scandal. Again, lots of customers lost faith in Mitsu after that, and
now they're hurting badly for cash, swimming in red ink.

The car business is very demanding. You have to not only get it right,
with thousands of little decisions for every model you bring to
market, but you have to do that year after year.

If your name or product isn't trusted, incentives won't help much. Too
big a purchase.

Dave
Go Metric!
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 16 Dec 2004 16:20 GMT
GM outsell Toyota, by more three to one.  Ford outsell Toyota, by
more than two to one.

Toyota does indeed have the cost advantage of lower wages, fewer
benefits and pension for their employees. They assemble their
vehicles of lower cost imported parts, for the most part, in
newer plants built with state and local taxpayers money but their
vehicles still sell for 20& to 30% more than their domestic
competitors similarly size and equipped vehicles.  Seems to to me
the buyer of their vehicles are not too smart.

mike hunt

> >What is wrong with GM and Ford? it even seems that incentives do not help
> >anymore.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Dave
> Go Metric!
Hugo Drax - 18 Dec 2004 13:13 GMT
> GM outsell Toyota, by more three to one.  Ford outsell Toyota, by
> more than two to one.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> competitors similarly size and equipped vehicles.  Seems to to me
> the buyer of their vehicles are not too smart.

Because people are tired of buying vehicles that have nonfunctional AC after
a few years of ownership or exploding fueltanks, self disconnecting tires
etc..
 
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