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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / December 2004

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prisoners in their cars, drivers deserve liberation

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donquijote1954 - 14 Dec 2004 00:15 GMT
'The old ways of traffic engineering - build it bigger, wider, faster -
aren't going to disappear overnight. But one look at West Palm Beach
suggests an evolution is under way. When the city of 82,000 went ahead
with its plan to convert several wide thoroughfares into narrow two-way
streets, traffic slowed so much that people felt it was safe to walk
there. The increase in pedestrian traffic attracted new shops and
apartment buildings. Property values along Clematis Street, one of the
town's main drags, have more than doubled since it was reconfigured.
"In West Palm, people were just fed up with the way things were, and
sometimes, that's what it takes," says Lockwood, the town's former
transportation manager. "What we really need is a complete paradigm
shift in traffic engineering and city planning to break away from the
conventional ideas that have got us in this mess. There's still this
notion that we should build big roads everywhere because the car
represents personal freedom. Well, that's bullshit. The truth is that
most people are prisoners of their cars."'

Roads Gone Wild

How to Build a Better Intersection: Chaos = Cooperation

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html?pg=1&topic=traffic&topic_set=
http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
donquijote1954 - 14 Dec 2004 03:11 GMT
Hey, when it comes to walking, you are the bottom of the food chain.
Walking, it turns out, is dangerous to your health...

Walking in L.A. Deemed Risky Business
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Christine Ahn on Dec 12, 2004, 21:49

LOS ANGELES - Nobody walks in L.A. -- and for good reason.

A nationwide study issued Dec. 2 found walking to be the most dangerous
way to travel in Los Angeles, and the country at large. According to
the Surface Transportation Policy Project's report entitled Mean
Streets 2004, "America's streets are growing meaner for
pedestrians."

Although the L.A. region, which also includes Riverside, Orange, San
Bernardino and Ventura counties, was rated the 20th most dangerous in
the U.S., it was highlighted as a "bright spot" for its significant
improvements in pedestrian safety.

L.A. is the fifth most-improved metro area, as pedestrian fatalities
have dropped 18.6 percent over the last 10 years. Salt Lake City leads
the nation with a 44.2 percent decline in deaths, while Orlando was
found to be the most dangerous place to walk.

While L.A.'s improvements are a step in the right direction, locals
are troubled -- but not necessarily shocked -- by the finding that
pedestrians account for about 21 percent of traffic deaths in an area
where less than 3 percent of residents walk frequently.

"Honestly, it doesn't surprise me," said 19-year-old Ndidi
Asianua of Los Angeles. "There are a lot of reckless, impatient
drivers in L.A. who don't give pedestrians the right-of-way, even at
crosswalks."

Nationwide, about 11 percent of traffic fatalities are pedestrians. A
total of 4,827 American walkers died last year while 51,989 have died
in the last decade. The STPP hopes that these numbers, along with the
finding that walking has become more deadly in the U.S. overall, will
spur government action.

"Nearly 52,000 pedestrian deaths over the last 10 years is a
staggering figure that demands that we do much more to make walking a
safer travel option," said STPP president Anne Canby in a press
release.

The study pointed out that less than one percent of federal
transportation funds were used on pedestrian safety over the last
spending period. In California, spending aimed at walkers broke down to
about 50 cents per person each year, well below the national average of
82 cents. Los Angeles spent a paltry 21 cents per person.

The Mean Streets study recommended that states aim to better protect
their walkers by taking such steps as improving crosswalks, enforcing
speed limits and promoting walking as a healthy mode of transportation.
The Real Bev - 14 Dec 2004 06:14 GMT

> While L.A.'s improvements are a step in the right direction, locals
> are troubled -- but not necessarily shocked -- by the finding that
> pedestrians account for about 21 percent of traffic deaths in an area
> where less than 3 percent of residents walk frequently.

Consider the possibility that these dead pedestrians were unable to pass
the driving test and just wandered out into traffic through ignorance or
stupidity.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Self Test for Paranoia:  You know you have it when you can't
think of anything that's your own fault.

Scott en Aztl?n - 14 Dec 2004 16:29 GMT
>> While L.A.'s improvements are a step in the right direction, locals
>> are troubled -- but not necessarily shocked -- by the finding that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the driving test and just wandered out into traffic through ignorance or
>stupidity.

The explanation is even simpler than that:

In any car-pedestrian collision, the driver of the car is protected by
a heavy steel cage, restrained by seatbelts, and cushioned by airbags.
The pedestrian is completely unprotected. OF COURSE the pedestrian is
more likely to sustain serious injuries than the driver.

BTW, the fact that "less than 3 percent of residents walk frequently"
is totally irrelevant. I'm troubled -- but not necessarily shocked --
by the fact that some moron threw in that little snippet of info.

Signature

Sloth Kills!
http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/

Mike Z. Helm - 17 Dec 2004 18:28 GMT
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:14:48 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley@myrealbox.com>

>> While L.A.'s improvements are a step in the right direction, locals
>> are troubled -- but not necessarily shocked -- by the finding that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the driving test and just wandered out into traffic through ignorance or
>stupidity.

You think they couldn't pass a driver's test just because they were
ignorant or stupid?

If only driving tests were that rigorous.
--
"Freedom is not always a good thing." -- P.R. Smith, a self-described conservative and Bush supporter
John Reiher - 17 Dec 2004 18:52 GMT
> You think they couldn't pass a driver's test just because they were
> ignorant or stupid?
>
> If only driving tests were that rigorous.

The big problem is that people believe that they have a _right_ to
drive, when it fact it is a _privilege_. In fact you can buy a motor
vehicle without having a valid license to operate it.

Any attempt to change this ends up with the Car Companies showing up on
your state legislature/assembly with large buckets of money to convince
your representatives/assemblymen to do otherwise.

Imagine the brouhaha that would erupt if a law were passed that if you
lost your license, you lost your car as well, or at least the license
plates? What if there are two drivers in the affect household? Well then
you keep your car/license plates, but if you are caught behind the
wheel, jail time will result as well as substantial fines. And you lose
your license not for six months or a year, but at least for 5 years, if
not more.

Don't worry, it will never happen, the car companies will make sure of
that.

Signature

The Kedamono Dragon
Pull Pinky's favorite words to email me.
http://www.ahtg.net
Have Mac, will Compute

Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers

MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 17 Dec 2004 21:39 GMT
The car companies will not allow it?  I believe you have the
wrong villain.  The various governments are the ones that gets
those annual road taxes and fees from that privilege that support
the streets, highways and low cost public transportation.   ;)

mike hunt

> The big problem is that people believe that they have a _right_ to
> drive, when it fact it is a _privilege_. In fact you can buy a motor
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
> http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers
GlidesWithEase - 18 Dec 2004 22:45 GMT
> The car companies will not allow it?  I believe you have the
> wrong villain.  The various governments are the ones that gets
> those annual road taxes and fees from that privilege that support
> the streets, highways and low cost public transportation.   ;)

all of which improvements help the auto makers sell more vehicles, because
after all, if the roads are there, why not drive more cars on them? the
government is guilty alright, but its the policies it implements on behalf
of auto makers that preempt other methods of transport (human-powered or
otherwise) from taking hold. I remain hopeful.

> mike hunt
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>> Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
>> http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers 
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 19 Dec 2004 18:17 GMT
You forget it is those automobile owners that pay a great portion
of the cost of lower cost public transportation and ALL of the
costs of those that ride bicycles, as well, with their fuel, road
use, and vehicles taxes.

mike hunt

> > The car companies will not allow it?  I believe you have the
> > wrong villain.  The various governments are the ones that gets
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> >> Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
> >> http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers
donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 18:10 GMT
And you forget the people most heavily dependent on wellfare: American
drivers...

Why Subsidize Sprawl, Pollution and Consumption?
(Published: Santa Barbara News-Press - Sunday May 28, 1995)
Suppose your employer offers to pay you a bonus to drive a car to work,
but offers no bonus if you bicycle, walk or ride the bus. Would you
figure that your employer is trying to encourage you to drive to work?
Do you think it would influence your choice of transportation? Is this
hypothetical? Not at all. Every day employers around the country
effectively "pay" their employees to use cars to get to work. They do
this by providing a free parking space worth at least $1,000 a year
nationally, and even more in Santa Barbara.

That "free" parking space is just one of a list of hidden subsidies
that encourage us to drive. Federal, state and local governments as
well as businesses provide other hidden subsidies that make driving
appear far cheaper in time and money than it really is. This makes it
almost impossible for alternative forms of transportation -- from
public transit to walking -- to compete fairly with the automobile.
Hence our transportation choices are limited and our lifestyle and
environment are affected in many ways.

Free parking at work accounts for about $85 billion nationally in
hidden subsidies. Yet this is just one part of a system of automobile
subsidies in our country that total more than $300 billion per year
according to a World Resources Institute report on the true costs of
driving.

To put that in perspective, $300 billion is a subsidy of about $5,000
per year for a family of four. That is $5,000 that each family must
spend on subsidizing automobile use, whether its members use an
automobile or not.

What if families were given a choice? Would they choose to spend $5,000
a year on auto subsidies? Or would they rather spend it on something
else?

There are many employees where I work who commute over 80 miles per day
round trip. The result is congestion on the roads and freeway,
pollution and wasted energy and other resources. And worst of all,
employees suffer a reduced quality of life: They spend time commuting
which could be spent in far more enjoyable and productive ways.

They endure this long drive because the cost of their commute is
subsidized in a variety of ways, but the price of a home near work is
not. Given a choice, though, many families would probably prefer to
"cash in" the auto subsidy and spend it on a home closer to work.

In the current Congress there have been major moves to slash subsidies
for Amtrak and other public transportation. Yet these subsidies are
only about 1% of the subsidies that exist for automobiles. But the
automobile subsidies are more subtle than a line item in the Federal
budget for Amtrak.

Hidden automobile subsidies include the social costs of the over 1.5
million automobile accidents each year and the cost of air pollution on
agriculture and on public health. They include the lost tax base of
land used for automobiles. In urban areas in the United States almost
half of the land is used for automobiles and much of this is tax-free.
Subsidies even include the estimated $20 billion share of military
spending devoted each year to securing the flow of oil for automobile
use.

These hidden costs are in addition to the more direct subsidies of
highway patrols and highway construction. In Santa Barbara over half of
the local road maintenance budget comes from sales taxes, not from
gasoline taxes.

By subsidizing roads for passenger cars, we also subsidize the use of
trucks to haul freight long distances. Rail is far more energy and
resource efficient, but it cannot compete fairly with subsidized truck
freight. Trucks pay for a tiny fraction of the road damage they cause,
while rail must pay all of its own costs.

If we were to charge the $300 billion at the gas pump, where Americans
consume over 70 billion gallons of fuel per year, the additional cost
would be over four dollars per gallon. That would bring the total cost
per gallon to between five and six dollars. That is not a punitive
cost, just the cost for motorists to pay their way without any
subsidies.

What would the country be like with gasoline priced for automobiles to
pay their way? Well, most European countries have gasoline priced
between four and five dollars per gallon, so we can get an idea of the
effects.

The most noticeable effect is that people live closer to work and to
shopping than most Americans do. Hence, even if they have to walk,
bicycle or use public transportation -- which seems slower than driving
-- they spend much less time in transit than we do.

Our sprawling land use necessitates the use of automobiles. But
business and government subsidies of automobile use are actually a
*cause* of sprawling land use. These subsidies fund flight to the
suburbs, leaving our cities to die. The resulting urban decay and crime
causes yet more suburban flight. It is a vicious circle that is largely
unique to the United States because the United States is unique among
industrialized nations in subsidizing automobile use so heavily.

A report "Beyond Sprawl: New Patterns of Growth to Fit the New
California" was recently released with much publicity by the Bank of
America, among other sponsors. The report cites automobile subsidies as
a central cause of California's sprawling growth.

Without the subsidies, development occurs along public transportation
routes. Instead of sprawling suburbs, development occurs in the form of
central cities and satellite cities with open space in between.
Transportation within cities is easily done on foot, bicycle or public
transportation. And transportation between cities is easily done by
rail, something which is impossible with sprawling development.

Open space close to urban areas is something Europeans take for
granted, yet our sprawling land use makes this rare in much of the
United States. We are fortunate in Santa Barbara that we have preserved
our local farms and natural wilderness, but this is not typical with
subsidized sprawl. And we are rapidly losing what we have preserved.

The issue is not whether automobiles should be a part of our
transportation system. The issue is whether we should be subsidizing
their use.

So let us begin a public debate on the issue of automobile subsidies.
This does not necessarily mean a rush to raise gasoline prices to $6
per gallon or any other specific policy. The first step to any policy
change is an awareness of the full effects of the current policy.

Considering that the effects of the current policy include wasted
resources, periodic wars over oil, pollution, loss of open space,
poorer health, reduced quality of life and even crime, we do have good
reason to debate the policy.

Then we can make informed policies on transportation that can improve
our lives and make our world a better place.
http://www.swt.org/robert/writ/subcol.htm
Jack May - 19 Dec 2004 18:32 GMT
> all of which improvements help the auto makers sell more vehicles, because
> after all, if the roads are there, why not drive more cars on them? the
> government is guilty alright, but its the policies it implements on behalf
> of auto makers that preempt other methods of transport (human-powered or
> otherwise) from taking hold. I remain hopeful.

People buy what meets their needs, not just because it is there.   Transit
is there, but people don't buy because it does not meet their needs.

Most major local governments spend lot more per user for transit than they
do for roads.  In the SF Bay Area, the plan is to spend 80% of
transportation funds on  transit which only about 3% of the commuters use.

By your theory people would use transit because it is there.   Obviously
your theory is "Busted" as they say on the Mythbuster program.
donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 18:13 GMT
"Communists love monopoly; free people love options"
-myself (isn't it cute) ;)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 20 Dec 2004 18:35 GMT
> People buy what meets their needs, not just because it is there.   Transit
> is there, but people don't buy because it does not meet their needs.

The commuter train this past Saturday was sure crowded; indeed, demand
is up so much for that they had to add more trains to carry the demand.

In contrast, they're doing roadway on an expressway I use.  It is four
lane (two each way) and one lane each side is closed.  Yet traffic is
moving quite well along the single then, there just isn't that much
traffic.  Doesn't seem like much demand for the highway.
Jack May - 21 Dec 2004 07:26 GMT
> The commuter train this past Saturday was sure crowded; indeed, demand
> is up so much for that they had to add more trains to carry the demand.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> moving quite well along the single then, there just isn't that much
> traffic.  Doesn't seem like much demand for the highway.

Lying with statistics usually means "cherry picking" a single point of data
that is highly abnormal compared to the statistical distribution of the
data.   Using a single point also has infinite variance which means it has
zero information.

Your example lying with statistics either for fun or ignorance.  Hard to
decide which.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 12:12 GMT
> > The commuter train this past Saturday was sure crowded; indeed, demand
> > is up so much for that they had to add more trains to carry the demand.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Your example lying with statistics either for fun or ignorance.  Hard to
> decide which.
Those are common sense facts. You don't need stats for that!
donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 17:05 GMT
The car companies are above the government agencies. Even California is
having a tough time enforcing stricter environmental laws.
Money comes first before government. ;)
Martin Edwards - 18 Dec 2004 13:37 GMT
.>
> You think they couldn't pass a driver's test just because they were
> ignorant or stupid?
>
> If only driving tests were that rigorous.
> --
> "Freedom is not always a good thing." -- P.R. Smith, a self-described conservative and Bush supporter

Signs of non-conformity such as long hair on men are a frequent fail point.
Signature

You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause.  -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 17:44 GMT
Well, for one we got to make the License to Kill harder to get...

Driving tests and real-life driving
As traffic increases in America's cities, driving becomes increasingly
frustrating and difficult. Driving examinations have not responded to
these challenges. Specifically, American driving standards are not high
enough; people who lack driving skills-and driving sense- can get
licensed and re-licensed until something really bad happens.

How many times have you sat minutes or hours in a traffic jam, waiting
to see the cop cars, tow trucks and ambulances which signal your wait
may soon end, but eventually traffic just ends and there was no
incident?  In these cases, bad driving is the most likely culprit.

but we also got to offer options...

Giving people options
Increased transportation options for people who cannot drive must
coincide with efforts to weed out lousy drivers.  Forcing people out of
their cars, with no way to get to work, breeds outlaws and joblessness.
Some ways include:

Some ideas for bike infrastructure follow:
Public bike programs.  In the simplest version of this program, the
city makes a fleet of modest bicycles available to anyone in the
downtown.  Program managers paint the bikes specific color, say bright
yellow.  Anyone can pick up a bike, ride it anywhere in the designated
program area, and leave it. Distribution of the bikes is at the whims
of the ebb and flow of normal human daily conduct. Nobody may take a
bike home; nobody may leave the designated program area with a public
bike.  Modern technology would outfit the bikes with tracking devices,
so they can be located if pilfered, and the perpetrators cited.  This
is inexpensive, efficient public transit!

Public scooter programs.  A take off on the above, with electric
scooters.  Parking places around town all have charging outlets.  The
scooters have limited range, and can only be charged on the public
chargers.  A card unlocks the scooter from its charging station.
Microcomputer chips in the scooter and the charging stations register
the scooter's unique ID and location whenever it is plugged in.  If any
scooter is not plugged in within a certain time frame, then a warning
is sent to headquarters, and a Lojack-like homing device is activated.
The scooter is tracked down and responsible parties are issued
citations.  Or, the scooter might automatically shut down, lock up, and
sound an alarm after being driven out of the program area (not while
moving!).  The city insures the scooters, possibly licenses scooter
users, may require insurance for riders, but is not liable for the
personal injuries of a rider.   People could be permitted to buy their
own personal scooters, and pay an annual fee to use the public charging
stations.  Personal scooters would have locking steering columns and
other features.  The overall scooter fleet could contain both public
and private units, and presents great opportunities for local scooter
manufacturing and repair jobs.   In sunny areas, solar chargers can cut
long-term costs.  Electric scooters are not a fantasy, there are many
models available today.

Bike trains:  Special rail cars are designed so that commuters may
board the train with their bike, snap their bike into a special holder,
ride with their bike, and exit with their bike.  This eliminates the
"bikes in the back of the train" or the "no bikes during rush hour"
restrictions most transit agencies place on cyclists.

very interesting article...
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/Community/drivtest.htm
John Reiher - 20 Dec 2004 18:55 GMT
> Well, for one we got to make the License to Kill harder to get...
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> enough; people who lack driving skills-and driving sense- can get
> licensed and re-licensed until something really bad happens.

Well in the State of Washington, to get a Motorcycle endorsement on your
driver's license requires that you take a fairly rigorous written test,
and pass a tough, but fair driving test. Or you can take a class for
$200 that will give you an automatic pass on the test, but you have to
pass the class to get that endorsement.

If normal driving tests were as rigorous, we'd probably see fewer
problems on the road. I'd also do away with automatic renewal. You'd
have to pass a test every time your license came up for renewal,
although I'd have the class alternative, where if you take a driving
class and pass it, you get your license. The classes would have to be
DOT certified like the motorcycle classes.

And if you fail the test or the class, you better hope you have adequate
public transit nearby, because there would be a 6 month waiting period
till your next chance to take the test.

Signature

The Kedamono Dragon
Pull Pinky's favorite words to email me.
http://www.ahtg.net
Have Mac, will Compute

Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers

donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 19:21 GMT
Sure, but we need a tougher license, not for motorcyclists, but for SUV
owners. They are the ones causing the mayhem!
They need an SUV endorsement!
Daniel J. Stern - 20 Dec 2004 20:38 GMT
> If normal driving tests were as rigorous, we'd probably see fewer
> problems on the road. I'd also do away with automatic renewal. You'd
> have to pass a test every time your license came up for renewal,
> although I'd have the class alternative, where if you take a driving
> class and pass it, you get your license. The classes would have to be
> DOT certified like the motorcycle classes.

If you knew anything about DOT certification, you'd know how meaningless
it is.
Mike Z. Helm - 21 Dec 2004 03:06 GMT
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:55:01 -0800, John Reiher
<kedamono.Poit@Narf.mac.com>

>If normal driving tests were as rigorous, we'd probably see fewer
>problems on the road. I'd also do away with automatic renewal. You'd
>have to pass a test every time your license came up for renewal,

Assuming I live in this shithole of a state that long, it will be nearly
3 decades before I have to renew mine.
--
"Freedom is not always a good thing." -- P.R. Smith, a self-described conservative and Bush supporter
John David Galt - 17 Dec 2004 22:02 GMT
Please don't feed the troll.
John Reiher - 17 Dec 2004 22:37 GMT
> Please don't feed the troll.

OK, who be the troll?

Signature

The Kedamono Dragon
Pull Pinky's favorite words to email me.
http://www.ahtg.net
Have Mac, will Compute

Check out the PowerPointers Shop at:
http://www.cafeshops.com/PowerPointers

John David Galt - 18 Dec 2004 01:31 GMT
>>Please don't feed the troll.
>
> OK, who be the troll?

Whoever came up with the original subject line.
Martin Edwards - 18 Dec 2004 13:49 GMT
>>> Please don't feed the troll.
>>
>> OK, who be the troll?
>
> Whoever came up with the original subject line.

No, he was baiting the anti-transit trolls.

Signature

You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause.  -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

John David Galt - 18 Dec 2004 16:40 GMT
>>>> Please don't feed the troll.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> No, he was baiting the anti-transit trolls.

"baiting" == "being a troll".  And there are no anti-transit trolls here.
Martin Edwards - 19 Dec 2004 09:21 GMT
> "baiting" == "being a troll".  And there are no anti-transit trolls here.

Must be something else eating my goats.
Signature

You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause.  -Chico Marx

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955

donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 17:12 GMT
just trying to change the world--you know, i say it's a jungle out
there...
Bill 2 - 14 Dec 2004 21:51 GMT
> "Honestly, it doesn't surprise me," said 19-year-old Ndidi
> Asianua of Los Angeles. "There are a lot of reckless, impatient
> drivers in L.A. who don't give pedestrians the right-of-way, even at
> crosswalks."

"Even at crosswalks" I don't yield right of way to pedestrians UNLESS they
are at a crosswalk.

Fortunately the traffic laws in NS side with me. Frequently peds are
ticketed in ped-car collisions outside of crosswalks.

When walking I take some personal responsibility when I'm crossing and
ensure a car won't hit me. Works both in and out of crosswalks.
fbloogyudsr - 14 Dec 2004 22:34 GMT
> "donquijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote
>> "Honestly, it doesn't surprise me," said 19-year-old Ndidi
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> When walking I take some personal responsibility when I'm crossing and
> ensure a car won't hit me. Works both in and out of crosswalks.

Just as long as you recognize that not all crosswalks are marked.
For instance, there is an implicit xwalk at all intersections in WA state,
regardless of whether there is a marking on the street or any signs.

Floyd
Bill 2 - 14 Dec 2004 22:39 GMT
> > "donquijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> "Honestly, it doesn't surprise me," said 19-year-old Ndidi
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> For instance, there is an implicit xwalk at all intersections in WA state,
> regardless of whether there is a marking on the street or any signs.

Oh I realize there are unmarked crosswalks at intersections, but that still
makes them crosswalks, and I only yield at crosswalks.
bugme_69@hotmail.com - 15 Dec 2004 23:37 GMT
> > "donquijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> "Honestly, it doesn't surprise me," said 19-year-old Ndidi
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Floyd

I always respect crosswalks marked or unmarked.  But it's a funny
thing.  Most of the people I've hit are outside the crosswalk.  It
seems after I hit them, they mysteriously leave the crosswalk.
f.ck'EM.
donquijote1954 - 16 Dec 2004 22:56 GMT
> > "Honestly, it doesn't surprise me," said 19-year-old Ndidi
> > Asianua of Los Angeles. "There are a lot of reckless, impatient
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> When walking I take some personal responsibility when I'm crossing and
> ensure a car won't hit me. Works both in and out of crosswalks.

The point of the second article is that we don't need as many signs,
which I hope doesn't extend to pedestrians. They need crosswalks as
much as bikes need bike lanes. Regrettably the human being is ignored
in favor of the machine.
What's been done is too little--and perhaps too late.
Daniel J. Stern - 17 Dec 2004 17:05 GMT
> pedestrians need crosswalks as much as bikes need bike lanes.

Better not let Brent see you saying that.
Alan \(in Brussels\) - 20 Dec 2004 17:25 GMT
> Hey, when it comes to walking, you are the bottom of the food chain.
> Walking, it turns out, is dangerous to your health...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Streets 2004, "America's streets are growing meaner for
> pedestrians."

<SNIP data for Los Angeles>

If you *really* want to know more, the STPP's report "Mean Streets 2004" is
on-line at the URL: http://www.transact.org/report.asp?id=235

Regards,

- Alan (in Brussels)
donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2004 18:17 GMT
I liked this...

"The transportation system should be socially equitable and strengthen
civil rights; enabling all people to gain access to good jobs,
education and training, and needed services. Where possible, personal
transportation expenses should be minimized in ways that support wealth
creation. Integrated with land use planning, transportation should also
enhance the quality, livability and character of communities and
support revitalization without displacement. The transportation system
should allow every American to participate fully in society whether or
not they own a car and regardless of age, ability, ethnicity, or
income."
- From the Alliance for a New Transportation Charter
Nowadays, if you don't have a car you are f***!
larrybud2002@yahoo.com - 17 Dec 2004 15:35 GMT
> 'The old ways of traffic engineering - build it bigger, wider, faster -
> aren't going to disappear overnight.

So now I have to walk 16 miles to and from my job?  Whew, it's really
going to cut down on my sleep time.
Sancho Panza - 17 Dec 2004 22:58 GMT
> So now I have to walk 16 miles to and from my job?  Whew, it's really
> going to cut down on my sleep time.

If you're really "Larry Bud," you still own Mehlman Bus Lines and should be
able to ride free.
 
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