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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / January 2005

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Are you in favor of an SUV endorsement?

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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 04:34 GMT
Sure we need a tougher license, an endorsement if you will, just like
motorcyclists, but for SUV drivers. They are the ones causing the
mayhem!

They need an SUV endorsement!

Let's listen to what this man got to say...

"There are no unsafe vehicles.  Only unsafe drivers."

Well, that's stretching it a bit, but I think you catch my drift.

I'm fanatical about safety.  Been to 12 driving schools, and have
certain
habits I think all SUV owners should develop.

1.  Of course, seatbelts.  Not only for your own protection, but for
everyone else's.  An SUV can throw you far enough to be nowhere near
the
controls while still being *in* the vehicle.

2.  I always ride the right edge of the lane I'm in, since most folks
can't
see around me.  And if someone's trying to get a look around me for
passing
on a two-lane, I put the right side onto the shoulder so they can see.

3.  This one's my favorite, and I was a strong advocate of it for
motorcycles, to no avail: Tiered Licensing.

Basically, require a special license for driving certain vehicles, and
make
the test tough, including emergency handling, safe following distance,
ultra-conservative passing practices, etc.

And give tickets for SUV's not riding the right edge of the lane.  And
suspend the license's SUV endorsement for especially dangerous
activities
like speeding (speed doesn't kill -- differences in speeds kill.  90mph
isn't dangerous unless you're passing someone doing 70 or there's
oncoming
traffic) and tailgating.  And like I think we should do with all
vehicles;
mandatory long jail time for DUI (attempted manslaughter, in my book).

4.  Tack more onto the price of these things to discourage some of the
pretenders.  And use that money to fund 3rd-party attempts at making
them
more efficient and safe.

5.  Mandatory impact heights.  The technology exists (for a price -- oh
well) to let these things ride at a nice low level while still allowing
for
increased clearance when needed.  Their mass is still a problem, but if
they don't ride up over the passengers of other cars, the people in
those
other cars have a much better chance of survival if they're belted in.
Perhaps a "cow-catcher" type of arrangement that deploys only under
heavy
braking.

Personally, the people who buy these things just for looks tick me off
enough that it wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if we had to demonstrate
a
need for one of these vehicles before being allowed to buy them.

And, as tired as I am of dirty looks and occasionally being flipped off
when mine's loaded full of lumber and hauling an equally-loaded
trailer,
I'm even more tempted to flip off the guys and gals talking on their
cell
phones while blasting past my mud-encrusted Sub in their
never-seen-dirt
versions while tailgating Metros at high speed.

The people are the problem; not the vehicles.

And if knowing that they're paying $50k for a $30k vehicle doesn't
discourage them, there need to be other ways to deal with the problem.

The automakers have a right to a profit, and they owe it to their
shareholders to make as much as they can.  I have a right to buy as
much
vehicle as I need.  However, others have a right to not be in danger of
my
killing them with my monster ute.

I don't think all of these rights are mutually exclusive if enough
thought
is put into the problem.

I'm very much a tree-hugger myself ("Mother Earth News", "Home Power",
40
acres, most of which is very actively managed as wildlife habitat,
etc),
but the rights of the more radical of my ilk aren't more important than
my
rights and mine aren't more important than theirs.

Enough tiradin' for me.  Would be interested in your thoughts.

http://www.mihalis.net/public/reasonable_SUV.html
http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
John Harlow - 21 Dec 2004 04:44 GMT
> Sure we need a tougher license, an endorsement if you will, just like
> motorcyclists, but for SUV drivers. They are the ones causing the
> mayhem!

Oh yeah,we need more beauracracy.  We have way too many personal freedoms as
it is.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 05:12 GMT
The freedom to reckless driving and mayhem is somewhat inconvenient to
smaller vehicle though.

Besides the money raised can be used to support the troops in Iraq, a
war that has the full support of SUV drivers.
Polarhound - 21 Dec 2004 07:48 GMT
>>Sure we need a tougher license, an endorsement if you will, just like
>>motorcyclists, but for SUV drivers. They are the ones causing the
>>mayhem!
>
> Oh yeah,we need more beauracracy.  We have way too many personal freedoms as
> it is.

Or you can just FIX the farm-business exemption that allows any business
owner to write off half of the purchase price of any SUV.
BigJohnson@mailcity.com - 21 Dec 2004 16:30 GMT
Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?'  I believe you
don't understand federal tax laws.

mike hunt

> Or you can just FIX the farm-business exemption that
> allows any business owner to write off half of the > purchase price of any SUV.
H.B. Elkins - 21 Dec 2004 16:49 GMT
I am in favor of an SUV endorsement.

If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-)

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To reply by e-mail, remove the "restrictor plate"

DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 17:20 GMT
> I am in favor of an SUV endorsement.
>
> If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-)

Do you look dumb?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 17:21 GMT
> I am in favor of an SUV endorsement.
>
> If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-)

Do you look dumb?
Iggy - 22 Dec 2004 02:18 GMT
>> I am in favor of an SUV endorsement.
>>
>> If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-)
>>
> Do you look dumb?

No, but you do....posting the same thing twice.

Then again, you always look stupid crossposting your SUV bullshit.
Scott M. Kozel - 22 Dec 2004 03:05 GMT
> >> I am in favor of an SUV endorsement.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Then again, you always look stupid crossposting your SUV bullshit.

He looks stupid crossposting, period.  Killfile his posts.
Polarhound - 22 Dec 2004 08:46 GMT
> Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?'  I believe you
> don't understand federal tax laws.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 22 Dec 2004 12:42 GMT
> > Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?'  I believe you
> > don't understand federal tax laws.
>
> http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp

Do the Uncle Sam always favor the rich? Jesus, it's the same guy that
wants the poor to go to war to get the oil for the rich.
IleneDover@mailcity.com - 22 Dec 2004 15:11 GMT
The poor don't use oil?

mike hunt

> > > Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?'  I believe you
> > > don't understand federal tax laws.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Do the Uncle Sam always favor the rich? Jesus, it's the same guy that
> wants the poor to go to war to get the oil for the rich.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 22 Dec 2004 17:59 GMT
> The poor don't use oil?
>
> mike hunt

Sure, but mostly because THEY ARE FORCED TO. They got no option, you
know.

They could get around with a bicycle or with efficient public
transportation but got no choice. They must feed the dinosaur.
Charles Soto - 22 Dec 2004 18:37 GMT
> > The poor don't use oil?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> They could get around with a bicycle or with efficient public
> transportation but got no choice. They must feed the dinosaur.

That Barney is a right f.cker!

Charles

Signature

Charles Soto - Austin, TX *** 1999 GSF1200S, DoD No. "uno"

("Meepmeep" is "rr," as in Roadrunner, my ISP.)

DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 22 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT
> > > The poor don't use oil?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> That Barney is a right f.cker!

This ain't no Barney though. This is the MF Americanus Raptor... ;)
http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum/3021914257/fetch/330301/
MikeHunt2@mailcity.com - 23 Dec 2004 00:59 GMT
Do you believe the only thing we get from crude oil is gasoline?
Quite obviously you do not live in Idaho you
live in a fantasy land     LOL

mike

> > The poor don't use oil?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> They could get around with a bicycle or with efficient public
> transportation but got no choice. They must feed the dinosaur.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 23 Dec 2004 04:13 GMT
> Do you believe the only thing we get from crude oil is gasoline?
> Quite obviously you do not live in Idaho you
> live in a fantasy land     LOL

All the more to save gasoline. But you choose to waste it nevertheless.
RustyFender@mailcity.com - 23 Dec 2004 15:14 GMT
Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil.
If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned
off at the refinery, as it was before it became a fuel for cars.
Do some research

mike hunt

> > Do you believe the only thing we get from crude oil is gasoline?
> > Quite obviously you do not live in Idaho you
> > live in a fantasy land     LOL
>
> All the more to save gasoline. But you choose to waste it nevertheless.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 23 Dec 2004 15:42 GMT
> Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil.
> If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned
> off at the refinery, as it was before it became a fuel for cars.
> Do some research

Imaginative theory. So if it was going to waste, why not burn it!? Does
it make you smile while driving your SUV?

So instead of a polluter you think of yourself as some sort of vulture.
Interesting.

"Breathing dirty air is just as harmful as smoking cigarettes."

But please don't "smoke" into my air...

Can you guess what one of the greatest threats to our health is?

That's right, air pollution.  Pollution can occur naturally, like
when a volcano erupts or lightening starts a forest fire.  However,
most air pollution is caused by humans.  Cars are the biggest source of
air pollution because there are so many of them on the road.  Each time
a car is running, it's making the air dirty.  And believe it or not,
short car trips make the most pollution.

Breathing dirty air is just as harmful as smoking cigarettes.
Pollution can also make your eyes itch or burn, or cause you to cough
or sneeze.  

http://www.ridewise.org/kidcleanair.shtml
George Conklin - 23 Dec 2004 15:51 GMT
> > Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil.
> > If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> That's right, air pollution.

  Life expectancy is still going UP.  Sorry about the factoid.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 23 Dec 2004 16:21 GMT
> > That's right, air pollution.
>
>    Life expectancy is still going UP.  Sorry about the factoid.

And so is lung desease. Many think breathing carbon monoxide is no good
for your lungs. The only consolation we got is that your breath it too.
Inhale deeply... ;)

Air Pollution, Heart Disease and Stroke

Exposure to air pollution contributes to the development of
cardiovascular diseases (heart disease and stroke).

A person's relative risk due to air pollution is small compared with
the impact of established cardiovascular risk factors such as smoking,
obesity, or high blood pressure.  However, this is a serious public
health problem because an enormous number of people are exposed over an
entire lifetime.

Background

Until May of 2004, the American Heart Association had not issued any
expert reviewed statement about the short-term and long-term effects of
chronic exposure to different pollutants. This was due to flaws in
research design and methodology of many pollution studies. During the
last decade, however, epidemiological studies conducted worldwide have
shown a consistent, increased risk for cardiovascular events, including
heart and stroke deaths, in relation to short- and long-term exposure
to present-day concentrations of pollution, especially particulate
matter.

Elderly patients, people with underlying heart or lung disease, lower
socioeconomic populations and diabetics may be at particularly
increased risk. More research is needed to find out the differential
toxicity of various constituents of air pollution.

(snip)

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has declared that "tens of
thousands of people die each year from breathing tiny particles in the
environment." A recent report released by the nonprofit Health Effects
Institute in Cambridge, Mass., agrees with the EPA assessment. This
study was reviewed by Science magazine and clearly shows that death
rates in the 90 largest U.S. cities rise by 0.5 percent with only a
tiny increase - 10 micrograms (mcg) per cubic meter -- in particles
less than 10 micrometers in diameter. This finding is similar to those
of other studies throughout the world. The case is stronger with this
study, because it eliminated several factors that could confound the
interpretation of the data, such as temperature and other pollutants.

The number of deaths due to cardiac and respiratory problems may be
small when looking at individual cities with small particles in the
environment. The combined long-term effect of studies in several large
cities predicts 60,000 deaths each year caused by particulate matter.
This is a staggering loss of life that can be eliminated by stricter
emissions standards as proposed by the EPA.
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4419
George Conklin - 23 Dec 2004 17:43 GMT
> > > That's right, air pollution.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for your lungs. The only consolation we got is that your breath it too.
> Inhale deeply... ;)

  When life expectancy is going UP, all you want to do is to cite studies
which should prove it is going down.  Wrong again.  If you don't die of
infection and other disease, cancer, heart attack and stroke are about all
that keeps you from living forever.  Air is cleaner now than 50 years ago,
by a long shot, so if lung disease is going up as the air gets cleaner, then
I guess you have proven we need dirty air?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 00:34 GMT
> > > > That's right, air pollution.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> by a long shot, so if lung disease is going up as the air gets cleaner, then
> I guess you have proven we need dirty air?

And what do you want to prove, that SUVs spew out oxygen?

Isn't it reasonable to assume that cleaner air came from OTHER sources,
even though you kept spewing out carbon monoxide?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 29 Dec 2004 14:20 GMT
THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE IS NOT SUSTAINABLE

"History has shown that all empires relying on their military strength
rise and fall bringing about huge catastrophes. America seems to follow
with impetuous speed their paradigm."

I think whether we are the smartest or stupidest species on the face of
the Earth will be put to the test soon. The latter possibility will
bring us closer to the dinosaurs, the former will make us take the next
evolutionary step...

"Shall we accept that it is the unavoidable fate of humans to obey this
law of the jungle or we have the possibility to overcome it by a
quantic jump in our understanding and consciousness?"

This article is dedicated to the wonderful but innocent people of
America.

May be the time has arrived that the whole world must sit still for a
while and meditate on the question whether we want to follow the "law
of the jungle" or there is a possibility of a changed course of action.
Shall we accept that it is the unavoidable fate of humans to obey this
law of the jungle or we have the possibility to overcome it by a
quantic jump in our understanding and consciousness?

It is absolutely sure that if globalization is not founded on moral
values not only will fail but will bring about global calamities.

This assumption is based in the following logical ascertainments:

1. That the law that exists in the natural world is expressed as the
"right of the strongest" or the "law of the jungle" as is more
picturesquely expressed.

When we observe this "law" in action we realise that if we abandon a
garden on which we cultivated useful fruit trees, in a few years, these
evolved species of trees become weak and eventually die and their place
is taken by wild plants and trees. Nature is not interested to ennoble
the species, to evolve them, to make them more useful for humans, on
the contrary according to the second law of thermodynamics nature is
always tending to bring about a chaotic situation inertness and the
lowest state of consciousness.

2. Humans on the other hand, have since long decided to go against this
'law of nature', and establish the moral law where the 'right' and the
'just' should prevail. The help to the weaker and the needy, the
support of one another, the individual freedom, the respect of each
other and the respect of the human laws are necessary. The declaration
of the human rights, the basic rights and freedoms to which all human
beings are entitled, - the right to life and liberty, freedom of
thought and expression, and equality before the law. - was the result
of human experience in order not to allow the law of the jungle `to
prevail upon humanity. All these values were established in order to
make possible the survival of the human race in separate societies but
also to give the possibility for evolution and spiritual development.
Humans are the only living creatures in the Cosmos that have the
possibility of choosing either to 'create' or to 'destroy'. The
technological advancement should have been the means of helping the
evolution of humans not the means of their destruction.

It is therefor obvious that as long as the moral laws are not applied,
the world will not march towards an evolution and the creation of a
"new human being" but on the contrary will go on a chaotic and downward
process where the law of the jungle will prevail even if the 'rulers'
of our times will try to impose some kind of order that suits them.

The human rights declaration were expressed mainly by the European
spirit. The moral law, was a law established by humans against the laws
of nature. That is why, every time humans are trying to enforce the
moral law, nature reacts in a thousand different ways in order to
prevent the 'right' and the 'just' to be established and to prevail.

On the other side of this moral law lies what we see today. For
instance Sadam applying the law of the "strongest" in Iraq brought all
his people to the brink of total destruction. The American government
applying the same law will also bring eventually these extraordinary
people of America, to the brink of their own moral extinction.

History has shown that whoever leader (or group of leaders) attempted
to impose their will through 'brutal power', was eventually enraptured
in the arrogance of power and destroyed themselves and their own
people. The last example was Hitler and all that the German race is
suffering till now because of his brutal behaviour.

History has shown that all empires relying on their military strength
rise and fall bringing about huge catastrophes. America seems to follow
with impetuous speed their paradigm.

The whole world must meditate on the question whether we want to follow
the same processes or there is a possibility of a changed course of
action. Shall we accept that it is the unavoidable fate of humans to
obey this law of the jungle or we have the possibility to overcome it
by a quantic jump in our understanding and consciousness?

more...

http://www.vithoulkas.com/library_EN/horizons/horizons04.html
http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 29 Dec 2004 16:11 GMT
Seems you like to compare the US to dinosaurs, like that's a bad
thing.  The US is just barely over 200 years old. The dinosaurs
ruled for 250 million years, we may even do as well.   Find you
windmill yet  ;)

> THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE IS NOT SUSTAINABLE
>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> http://www.vithoulkas.com/library_EN/horizons/horizons04.html
> http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 29 Dec 2004 18:05 GMT
> Seems you like to compare the US to dinosaurs, like that's a bad
> thing.  The US is just barely over 200 years old. The dinosaurs
> ruled for 250 million years, we may even do as well.   Find you
> windmill yet  ;)

Yeah, I found it. It's the dinosaur!

But they won't last that long given the nuclear tooth they got. At most
100 years maybe not even 50. And worst it can't even sleep, all because
it won't declare the Law of the Jungle over.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 29 Dec 2004 20:56 GMT
Apparently you are even anti nature as well   LOL

mike hunt

> > Seems you like to compare the US to dinosaurs, like that's a bad
> > thing.  The US is just barely over 200 years old. The dinosaurs
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 100 years maybe not even 50. And worst it can't even sleep, all because
> it won't declare the Law of the Jungle over.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 29 Dec 2004 22:22 GMT
> Apparently you are even anti nature as well   LOL

What nature? The jungle of nature is like a picnic compared to ours.
And they don't prey on their own species.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 30 Dec 2004 14:37 GMT
Now that is funny.  Obviously you know nothing of what goes on in
nature as well.  Get back to use when you finish your education
LOL

mike hunt

> > Apparently you are even anti nature as well   LOL
>
> What nature? The jungle of nature is like a picnic compared to ours.
> And they don't prey on their own species.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 30 Dec 2004 15:52 GMT
> Now that is funny.  Obviously you know nothing of what goes on in
> nature as well.  Get back to use when you finish your education
> LOL

I got entertained by your stupid television for too long.
BBC nature shows are needed here...
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 30 Dec 2004 05:52 GMT
>>>sierra_bardot <sierra_bardot@yahoo.com> wrote:
I suppose we have to develop our listening abilities. s<<<

I say it specifically because I have gone to bicycle groups to propose
bike lanes, and they don't want them; to the car groups to propose
stricter licensing for SUVs because they are a threat to others, and
they don't want to hear; to the radio groups saying too many strident
commercials on the hour, and they ignore it; and the stupid drug
prohibition that generates so much crime, and the parks being off
limits to families because the homeless camp out there, and the Parking
Authority who prays on the poor with a vengeance, and the littering,
and the stupid policy on terrorism, and the bay with all the junk
floating. So Americanus Raptor, the last dinosaur on Earth, refuses to
evolve...
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 30 Dec 2004 14:52 GMT
That is you trouble you live in a dream world of windmills, not
the real world.   Bike riders can have all the bike lanes they
want.  All they need do is pay for them, as vehicle owners pay
for their roads with their license fees and fuel taxes.  You
should be glad those that pay for the roads let bikes share them
for free.  Bikes and their riders should be licensed and bike
lanes could be paid for with tolls.  Trust me building more bike
lanes in the US for free is not going to happen, at least not in
the real world where the rest of us reside.   ;)

mike hunt

> >>>sierra_bardot <sierra_bardot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I suppose we have to develop our listening abilities. s<<<
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> floating. So Americanus Raptor, the last dinosaur on Earth, refuses to
> evolve...
RustyFender@mailcity.com - 23 Dec 2004 19:01 GMT
I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe
it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need,
as you seem to think you have.  Your rantings will not change
that, get over it

mike hunt

> > Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil.
> > If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Imaginative theory. So if it was going to waste, why not burn it!? Does
> it make you smile while driving your SUV?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 01:05 GMT
> I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe
> it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need,
> as you seem to think you have.  Your rantings will not change
> that, get over it

My point is that America remains a jungle in 2004. Everything and
anything is a consequence of that. I rest my case... ;)
DustyRhoades@mailcity.com - 24 Dec 2004 02:00 GMT
Thank goodness.  Does that mean you will finally go
away now?  ;)

mike hunt

> > I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe
> > it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> My point is that America remains a jungle in 2004. Everything and
> anything is a consequence of that. I rest my case... ;)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 03:20 GMT
> Thank goodness.  Does that mean you will finally go
> away now?  ;)

In the spirit of Christmas...

Next topic will be "Are SUVs evil?"

Here's a preview...

"This is the subtext of the anti-SUV campaign: Consumers are too stupid
to know their own interests, too stupid even to realize they're in
cahoots with terrorists."

http://www.reason.com/sullum/011703.shtml
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 04:10 GMT
> Thank goodness.  Does that mean you will finally go
> away now?  ;)

In the spirit of Christmas...

Next topic will be "Are SUVs evil?"

Here's a preview...

"This is the subtext of the anti-SUV campaign: Consumers are too stupid
to know their own interests, too stupid even to realize they're in
cahoots with terrorists."

http://www.reason.com/sullum/011703.shtml
Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 02:25 GMT
> I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe
> it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need,
> as you seem to think you have.  Your rantings will not change
> that, get over it

You are 100% correct (for once.)

HOWEVER:

1) we should not be encouraging excess consumption by giving
corporations tax breaks on truck-based SUVs but not cars

2) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by enacting
measures that replace fuel taxes with mileage-based taxes, as proposed
in at least CA and VA.

4) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by keeping the
obviously flawed CAFE system that imposes large fees on passenger cars
that actually get *better* fuel mileage than SUVs which are not subject
to the same standards, when they are used for the exact same purpose.

3) It is unconscionable that mfgrs. are allowed to run misleading
advertising touting the "safety" of their SUVs by pointing out specific
features like airbags, etc. giving the impression that they are safer
than passenger cars when in fact usually the opposite is true; not only
are most SUVs by nature unable to handle or stop as well as an average
car but they also do not always meet the minimum safety requirements
that *all* passenger cars must meet (I believe that this last is to
change, or may have already changed however.  That still does not negate
the active safety advantages inherent to the passenger car.)

4) Most people who claim they "need" an SUV are quite simply full of
caca.  Nobody at all bought them until CAFE killed off the full sized
car; 20 years ago even in rural areas Blazers, Broncos, Scouts, Jeeps
etc. were the exception not the rule.  It was rare to see one that
wasn't modified for off-road, and unlike today, it seemed that a decent
percentage of those actually did see occasional off-road use.

So you see, I do not argue for any legislative measures to discourage
people from buying SUVs, nor do I wish to infringe on the right of
people to buy whatever they please, so long as they can afford it.  I am
only arguing for more rational regulations that do not *encourage* their
use when another, more efficient and safer vehicle would serve even
better (a level playing field if you will) and of course, I reserve the
right to laugh at and deride people who make stupid, short-sighted
decisions in the name of "style."

nate

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George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 15:34 GMT
> > I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe
> > it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 1) we should not be encouraging excess consumption by giving
> corporations tax breaks on truck-based SUVs but not cars

  My my.  That law was in place because it was assumed that a business
actually hauled something.

> 2) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by enacting
> measures that replace fuel taxes with mileage-based taxes, as proposed
> in at least CA and VA.

 Excess consumption?  Move to India.  You can be a peasant and not excess
consume anything.  Become a monk and whip yourself over excess desires.
Stop heating your house. Don't live in a house, but find a small apartment
(400 square feet maximum) stacked on top of another one.  You can share
heated walls.   Stop changing your clothes daily.  Change them on Saturday
nights when you bathe, like was common in 1900.  Wear used clothes from
Goodwill.

> 3) It is unconscionable that mfgrs. are allowed to run misleading
> advertising touting the "safety" of their SUVs by pointing out specific
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> change, or may have already changed however.  That still does not negate
> the active safety advantages inherent to the passenger car.)

   Inherent?   Any vehicle which used to tow needs a frame.  To say that
such things make passenger cars unsafe simply means you are against any
truck-based vehicle.

> 4) Most people who claim they "need" an SUV are quite simply full of
> caca.

   Really?  Can you prove that?

Nobody at all bought them until CAFE killed off the full sized
> car; 20 years ago even in rural areas Blazers, Broncos, Scouts, Jeeps
> etc. were the exception not the rule.  It was rare to see one that
> wasn't modified for off-road, and unlike today, it seemed that a decent
> percentage of those actually did see occasional off-road use.

   I did not get a SUV  until I found that without one I got stuck, big
time.
Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 16:05 GMT
>>>I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe
>>>it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>    My my.  That law was in place because it was assumed that a business
> actually hauled something.

But as with any law that's not completely thought through in terms of
unintended consequences, abuse is widespread.  Do you really think that
*all* those Excursions are being utilized to the fullest, and not simply
serving as a company car for someone because it's cheaper for the
company than a passenger car?

>>2) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by enacting
>>measures that replace fuel taxes with mileage-based taxes, as proposed
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> nights when you bathe, like was common in 1900.  Wear used clothes from
> Goodwill.

Hint:  India is on the same planet as we are.  Moving ain't gonna change
anything - conservation begins at home.  FWIW I do live frugally and try
to conserve whenever possible.  Why don't you?

>>3) It is unconscionable that mfgrs. are allowed to run misleading
>>advertising touting the "safety" of their SUVs by pointing out specific
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> such things make passenger cars unsafe simply means you are against any
> truck-based vehicle.

Where did I say that the full frame was what made it unsafe?  I'm
referring to the high center of gravity relative to tread and wheelbase.
 I have no problem with buying a car with a full frame if I
occasionally need to tow something.  Too bad I can't - due to CAFE.

>>4) Most people who claim they "need" an SUV are quite simply full of
>>caca.
>
>     Really?  Can you prove that?

As stated in another post, my parents have been driving an '88 VW Golf
for years in conditions far worse than what 99% of the people who "need"
SUVs drive in.  The Scout hasn't been on a public road in 10 years, and
is only used to haul firewood.

In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
driver skill.  Now there are cases where people do need to haul heavy
loads etc. and either a pickup truck or SUV is required.  However, I
would imagine that had we not screwed up our laws so badly to preclude
the same, a full-size, AWD sedan or station wagon would probably fill
the needs of most SUV owners quite well, and more safely and
economically.  But again, due to CAFE, mfgrs. are loath to build big
cars, as well as AWD cars, because both large size and AWD carry a gas
mileage penalty - which isn't as big a deal for an SUV, because they
play to a different set of numbers.

> Nobody at all bought them until CAFE killed off the full sized
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>     I did not get a SUV  until I found that without one I got stuck, big
> time.

Again, you are a very rare person if you actually NEED an SUV to not get
stuck.  Heck, I've driven unloaded, 2WD trucks (as part of my job) in
conditions that would make most SUV drivers stay inside (e.g. Mackinac
Bridge and points north, in a snowstorm.)

nate

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Turby - 24 Dec 2004 16:55 GMT
>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
>driver skill.  

I don't buy that. I see no need for a single person to own a sedan. I
almost never need a back seat. In fact, I rarely need four wheels. On
the odd occasion I do need a cage, it's to haul stuff that won't fit
on a motorcycle, not people. I want a 4-wheel vehicle that's
functional. One that will carry lots of stuff. Occasionally, I wish I
had an SUV instead of my pickup, because it would have more security.

There is no inherent reason why SUVs cannot be more safe, more
efficient, and more economical than most of today's cars. The industry
has just chosen not to design and build them. The enemy is not the
vehicles or the people who drive them. The enemy is the industry that
won't improve their product, and the government that gives such poor
leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement
universal safety standards ala' seat belts, bumpers, etc.)

>Now there are cases where people do need to haul heavy
>loads etc. and either a pickup truck or SUV is required.  However, I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>mileage penalty - which isn't as big a deal for an SUV, because they
>play to a different set of numbers.

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Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 17:36 GMT
>>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
>>driver skill.  
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> functional. One that will carry lots of stuff. Occasionally, I wish I
> had an SUV instead of my pickup, because it would have more security.

I actually agree with you here...   a motorcycle isn't right for
everyone, but I do agree that the smallest car that fits one's needs is
a good thing.  I don't have a problem with people who have a pickup or
SUV for occasional use, it's the ones that drive them for every day,
single passenger commuting that are really the problem.

For example, I have a job where I tend to have to carry some stuff
around with me all the time, like a small assortment of tools, a laptop,
and maybe some spare parts.  But I am generally the only person in the
car, so I don't need a large car.  I'm currently driving a Porsche 944
which most people deride as "tiny" and a "toy" but hey, it carries
whatever I need wherever I need to take it and it doesn't do it at 13
MPG either.  As a side benefit, due to its small size and low CG (among
other things) it handles exceptionally well which makes it much more
likely that I'd be able to avoid an incident should I find myself in a
situation where evasive maneuvers are required.

> There is no inherent reason why SUVs cannot be more safe, more
> efficient, and more economical than most of today's cars.

Sure there is, high CG, higher weight and limited track width (due to
the width of a standard lane) all conspire to make a SUV by definition
less safe and less economical than most passenger cars.

> The industry
> has just chosen not to design and build them.

An ignorant statement that does not become any less annoying with
repetition.  An SUV that is "as safe as" a car will not be a real SUV,
likewise with economy.  The engineers are not conspiring against the
SUV-driving public; rather, you should be blaming those pesky laws of
physics.

> The enemy is not the
> vehicles or the people who drive them.

The enemy *is* the ignorant people who drive them, when they don't
really need them.

> The enemy is the industry that
> won't improve their product,

The industry will only produce what consumers will buy.  If people
suddenly started demanding large cars instead of SUVs (e.g. if Chrysler
suddenly starts selling all the 300Cs it can produce at over list) you'd
best believe that Ford, GM et. al. will be making some major changes to
their product line and production mix.

> and the government that gives such poor
> leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement
> universal safety standards ala' seat belts, bumpers, etc.)

Now that I will agree with.  It would appear to an impartial observer
that platitudes to the contrary, our gov't actually wants to promote the
widespread use of SUVs over passenger cars.

nate

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Turby - 24 Dec 2004 18:22 GMT
>>>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
>>>driver skill.  
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>the width of a standard lane) all conspire to make a SUV by definition
>less safe and less economical than most passenger cars.

That's assuming the current design definition for SUVs stays static.
Citroen used to make cars that could be raised or lowered, depending
on need. Honda's Element and the Scion XB don't fit into any of
yesterday's categorys. SUVs don't _have_ to have a higher CG or higher
weight than cars.

>> The industry
>> has just chosen not to design and build them.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>SUV-driving public; rather, you should be blaming those pesky laws of
>physics.

I said "today's" cars. Sure, a streamlined car will be more
economical, but today's cars are hardly a good standard for economy.
The SUV of the future will be better than today's car.

>> The enemy is not the
>> vehicles or the people who drive them.
>
>The enemy *is* the ignorant people who drive them, when they don't
>really need them.

You're asuming what other people's needs are. SUVs generally cost more
than sedans. People are willing to pay extra for them, so they
obviously feel some need.

>> The enemy is the industry that
>> won't improve their product,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>best believe that Ford, GM et. al. will be making some major changes to
>their product line and production mix.

Hey, I'm demanding, but I don't see the product out there. I've been
demanding better gas mileage for eons, but the only thing that's
driven gas mileage up is government intervention, which is why I put a
comma there to combine the two thoughts, not separate them. The
industry _could_ take the initiative, like it did with extracab doors
on pickups and a thousand other innovations for which we pay extra,
but  on gas mileage and safety, we don't get the option.

>> and the government that gives such poor
>> leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>nate

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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 19:30 GMT
> Now that I will agree with.  It would appear to an impartial observer

> that platitudes to the contrary, our gov't actually wants to promote the
> widespread use of SUVs over passenger cars.

Exactly, that's my point. So THE PROBLEM IS POLITICAL.

No matter how we scream or argue or make sense, the problem will
continue because the problem is not the puppet but the puppeteer.

But I want remind our fellow Americans that there's hope, not far from
America, actually in America. It's called the "Conch Republic." There
you can drive an SUV, but, best of all, you can choose NOT to drive an
SUV...

"After doing the Disney thing, and getting royally sunburned out on
Lake Dora, Karen & I drove down through the Florida Keys and set up
camp in Key West. This place is Heaven on Earth. Everyone is so serene
& so peaceful (and so tan! :-).  People down there really have a
different mindset -- when you're surrounded by the sea, you learn to
appreciate the simplicity and beauty of life and earth. The frenzy and
chiseled-to-the-nanosecond pace of modern civilization has no place
there. Key West natives are tuned to something quite different."
http://kumo.swcp.com/synth/keywest/
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 21:51 GMT
> > Now that I will agree with.  It would appear to an impartial observer
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Exactly, that's my point. So THE PROBLEM IS POLITICAL.

  Snow, rough roads, hills, mountains and so forth are not political.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 05:19 GMT
> > > Now that I will agree with.  It would appear to an impartial observer
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>    Snow, rough roads, hills, mountains and so forth are not political.

They have all those in other countries. And they survive it without
Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles... Guess why.
Right, THE PROBLEM IS POLITICAL. ;)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 18:04 GMT
> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
> >driver skill.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> functional. One that will carry lots of stuff. Occasionally, I wish I
> had an SUV instead of my pickup, because it would have more security.

It may not be the main reason, but it's certainly a big reason. The
last vehicle a skillful drive would drive would be an automatic
truck-like vehicle.

> There is no inherent reason why SUVs cannot be more safe, more
> efficient, and more economical than most of today's cars.

Unlikely since they are bigger, and bigger things use more energy.
Elementary school issue.

The industry
> has just chosen not to design and build them. The enemy is not the
> vehicles or the people who drive them.

The enemy is the system that allows them to drive the way the please.

The enemy is the industry that
> won't improve their product, and the government that gives such poor
> leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement
> universal safety standards ala' seat belts, bumpers, etc.)

Still the issue of danger to smaller vehicles won't be addressed. :(
Should small vehicles be armored? ;)
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT
"DonQuixote-v-Windmills" <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message >

The
> last vehicle a skillful drive would drive would be an automatic
> truck-like vehicle.

 That is why professional truck drivers have automatics.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 19:37 GMT
> "DonQuixote-v-Windmills" <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>   That is why professional truck drivers have automatics.
Only because it's a "JOB"... :)
bowman - 24 Dec 2004 23:27 GMT
>   That is why professional truck drivers have automatics.

The closest I ever came to an automatic in a truck was the semi-automatic
stashed in the sleeper.
ParrotRob - 26 Dec 2004 17:58 GMT
> The enemy is the system that allows them to drive the way the please.

Yes indeed.  God forbid Americans should be able to buy/drive/do as they
please.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 19:33 GMT
> "DonQuixote-v-Windmills" <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:1103911450.720194.233530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > The enemy is the system that allows them to drive the way the please.
>
> Yes indeed.  God forbid Americans should be able to buy/drive/do as they
> please.

But what's really awesome is how they learn to behave so well without
the whip... ;)

"Circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks his whip, but the really
well-trained dog is the one that turns his somersault when there is no
whip"
-George Orwell
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 19:17 GMT
> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
> >driver skill.
>
> I don't buy that. I see no need for a single person to own a sedan. I
> almost never need a back seat. In fact, I rarely need four wheels.

  So why don't you use 4-legs, like Jesus did.  Get a mule.
Turby - 24 Dec 2004 20:27 GMT
>> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
>> >driver skill.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>   So why don't you use 4-legs, like Jesus did.  Get a mule.

A mule can't go 1000 miles in a day, and the city won't let me keep
one in my backyard.

OTOH, my motorcycles all have big lockable saddlebags that carry >90%
of whatever I need to carry, can go almost anywhere, be parked almost
anywhere, can be fed almost anywhere, and are a ton of fun, to boot.
(And I don't have to kick them to get 'em to move.)

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Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 20:29 GMT
>>>>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
>>>>driver skill.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> anywhere, can be fed almost anywhere, and are a ton of fun, to boot.
> (And I don't have to kick them to get 'em to move.)

You must have one of those newfangled key start motorcycles then :)

nate

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George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 21:53 GMT
> >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of
> >> >driver skill.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> A mule can't go 1000 miles in a day, and the city won't let me keep
> one in my backyard.

   So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is
that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us
live near where we work (not 20 minutes away), use less, eat less, and
revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway.  Jesus rode a
mule;  you can too.
Turby - 25 Dec 2004 01:18 GMT
>> >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack
>of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway.  Jesus rode a
>mule;  you can too.

I _hope_ you're being facetious.

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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 05:26 GMT
> >> >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack
> >of
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> I _hope_ you're being facetious.

I see a weak point in his argument. You can worship the Devil if you
want. Just don't say, "God Bless America"???
John David Galt - 25 Dec 2004 05:58 GMT
>>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is
>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us
>> live near where we work (not 20 minutes away), use less, eat less, and
>> revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway.  Jesus rode a
>> mule;  you can too.

> I _hope_ you're being facetious.

If only he (and the eco-nuts) were.  But they've got their nice homes; the
rest of us can walk, as far as they're concerned.

See www.vehiclechoice.org to combat this insanity.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 06:50 GMT
> >>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is
> >> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> See www.vehiclechoice.org to combat this insanity.
We want OPTIONS for you. Though some walking wouldn't do no harm...
Turby - 25 Dec 2004 18:16 GMT
>>>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is
>>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>If only he (and the eco-nuts) were.  But they've got their nice homes; the
>rest of us can walk, as far as they're concerned.

I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss
an issue because of its extremists.

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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 18:52 GMT
> >>>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is
> >>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss
> an issue because of its extremists.

You got a point there, but I took it in its right context... ;)

THE MULE
http://www.kawasaki.com/uv/
(we only have to convert it to electricity now)
DTJ - 25 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT
>I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
>it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
>be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss
>an issue because of its extremists.

No it is not.  Take "global warming" for example.  No such thing
exists.  Environuts use this pseudo science to force their ideals on
the world.  They have no interest in stopping "global warming", only
in redistributing wealth to where they want it.  So they make up
theories, ignore facts and real science, and pay off the media to
portray their fantasies on the rest of us.  It has got to the point
where the majority of Americans believe there is such a thing,
regardless of the fact that 95% of people who consider themselves
scientists know there isn't, and the 5% aren't really scientists.
George Conklin - 25 Dec 2004 20:20 GMT
> >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
> >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> exists.  Environuts use this pseudo science to force their ideals on
> the world.

 In 1975 we were being told we were on the edge of a new ice age.  Same
data:  just different politics.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT
> > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
> > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>   In 1975 we were being told we were on the edge of a new ice age.  Same
> data:  just different politics.

You must have confused the "Cold War" for an Ice Age. They ain't the
same thing, Brutus Maximus... ;_
Polarhound - 26 Dec 2004 00:40 GMT
It gets better!  Now their mantra is "global warming causes global cooling"

http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/news/freeze.html
Keith Schiffner - 26 Dec 2004 01:47 GMT
> It gets better!  Now their mantra is "global warming
> causes global cooling"
>
> http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/news/freeze.html

ROTFLMAO...dumbshits.

People who aren't smart enough to realize that the weather
moves in cycles that are often of too great a length and
breadth then their chauvinistic minds will dismiss it.
Hopefully their children wont survive to live next to
mine...mine aren't arrogant enough to believe they can know
the number and variety of weather cycles or how the
currently collapsing magnetosphere is affecting the weather.
   Let's not confuse the poor morons by pointing out that
the magnetic poles are slowly (but speeding up) flipping
position in conjunction with said disturbance in the
fields...how arrogant of them to assume that less than 200
years of information gathering will give them any insight.

Make the world a better place burn a greenie!

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Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt
jewelry once in a while.
Dum vivimus, vivamus
<:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~

Nate Nagel - 26 Dec 2004 01:48 GMT
>>It gets better!  Now their mantra is "global warming
>>causes global cooling"
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Make the world a better place burn a greenie!

All the more reason to not f.ck with things you don't completely
understand, like the ecosystem.

nate

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John David Galt - 26 Dec 2004 04:30 GMT
>> People who aren't smart enough to realize that the weather moves in
>> cycles that are often of too great a length and breadth then their
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>> Make the world a better place burn a greenie!

> All the more reason to not f.ck with things you don't completely
> understand, like the ecosystem.

We may not understand it, but if warming turns out to exist and to be bad,
it's trivially easy to undo:  http://www.reason.com/9711/fe.benford.html
Nate Nagel - 26 Dec 2004 12:31 GMT
>>> People who aren't smart enough to realize that the weather moves in
>>> cycles that are often of too great a length and breadth then their
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> We may not understand it, but if warming turns out to exist and to be bad,
> it's trivially easy to undo:  http://www.reason.com/9711/fe.benford.html

If you don't understand it, how can you make that statement with confidence?

nate

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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 06:45 GMT
> >>It gets better!  Now their mantra is "global warming
> >>causes global cooling"
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> All the more reason to not f.ck with things you don't completely
> understand, like the ecosystem.
Don't try throwing pearls to the pigs.
Keith Schiffner - 26 Dec 2004 01:58 GMT
Would somebody ICE the sonofabitch whose using the headers
of others to claim he is them? PLEASE...I hate liars and HE
is a liar!
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 06:47 GMT
> Would somebody ICE the sonofabitch whose using the headers
> of others to claim he is them? PLEASE...I hate liars and HE
> is a liar!

You got competition, man.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 06:44 GMT
> > It gets better!  Now their mantra is "global warming
> > causes global cooling"
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Make the world a better place burn a greenie!

You live in the wrong country. You should move there (if you haven't
moved already)...

BRUTUS MAXIMUS DRIVES AN SUV

This is an interview with Brutus Maximus...

Reporter: What do you need that for?

Brutus: I get a power trip out of it...

Reporter: Do you realize that you threaten the environment, others on
the road as well as make wars for oil necessary?

Brutus: Listen, I pay taxes so I don't care. Besides the war makes a
nice TV show. Some TV and Budweiser, isn't it life?

Reporter: What do you think of a place like Holland where people get
around by bicycle?

Brutus: I take my bikes in the back of my SUV, so what's the point?

Reporter: What do you do with your spare time?

Brutus: I drive the SUV...

Reporter: Do you ever read?

Brutus: Nah, I don't like to waste my time...

Reporter: What do you think of the future of the world?

Brutus: I never think about it...

Reporter: Why do you fly an oversized American flag on your vehicle?

Brutus: It makes me feel like a patriot...

Reporter: Do you know that the whole world opposes the war?

Brutus: Remember, they are a bunch of anti-American losers...

Reporter: Are you worried about terrorism?

Brutus: Nah, I ain't got an arsenal for nothing...

Reporter: Any message for the troops?

Brutus: Yeah, I want more scenes of the Humvees hunting down the enemy.
Hunt'm-down-smoke'm-out! God Bless America!!!
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 03 Jan 2005 03:56 GMT
> > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
> > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>   In 1975 we were being told we were on the edge of a new ice age.  Same
> data:  just different politics.

You must have confused the "Cold War" for an Ice Age. They ain't the
same thing, Brutus Maximus... ;_
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 23:30 GMT
> >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
> >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> regardless of the fact that 95% of people who consider themselves
> scientists know there isn't, and the 5% aren't really scientists.

We have enough "conspiracy theories." Environmentally concerned people
are not nuts and there's conspiracy to redistribute wealth. It should
be distributed, of course, but that's another subject...
And where you got the 5% from, another "theory"? ;)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 03 Jan 2005 03:56 GMT
> >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
> >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> regardless of the fact that 95% of people who consider themselves
> scientists know there isn't, and the 5% aren't really scientists.

We have enough "conspiracy theories." Environmentally concerned people
are not nuts and there's conspiracy to redistribute wealth. It should
be distributed, of course, but that's another subject...
And where you got the 5% from, another "theory"? ;)
John David Galt - 25 Dec 2004 20:12 GMT
>>>>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is
>>>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us
>>>> live near where we work (not 20 minutes away), use less, eat less, and
>>>> revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway.  Jesus rode a
>>>> mule;  you can too.

>>> I _hope_ you're being facetious.

>> If only he (and the eco-nuts) were.  But they've got their nice homes; the
>> rest of us can walk, as far as they're concerned.

> I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in
> it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might
> be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss
> an issue because of its extremists.

Believe me, I don't.  I dismiss environmentalism because:
a)  All the major assertions of "science" behind it have been disproven;
b)  All the major personalities behind it have been shown to be habitual
liars; and
c)  The only non-extremists who believe that there's any reason for
environmental concern are people who simply haven't carried their beliefs
through to the logical conclusions they'd inevitably lead to if enacted.

I'll be happy to direct you to books that back this up.
Nate Nagel - 25 Dec 2004 21:40 GMT
>>>>>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of
>>>>> view is
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> I'll be happy to direct you to books that back this up.

Wow, you're an idiot.

It's real simple.  There's a finite amount of resources on this planet,
and the population is growing every day.  We're highly dependent on
non-renewable enegry sources.  now the question is, will we run out
before we either develop reliable, affordable space travel and/or
renewable energy sources that adequately replace fossil fuels, or not?

Doesn't it make sense to conserve, to try to tip things in our favor?

nate

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Keith Schiffner - 25 Dec 2004 21:53 GMT
>>>>>>    So?  Part of the whole issue from the
>>>>>> environmental point of view is
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> energy sources that adequately replace fossil fuels, or
> not?

You REALLY believe that don't you? You aren't awayre of ALL
the hydrocarbons available on the planet and the solar
system are you? You people are SO earth centric it is
pathetic...look OUT young fool.

> Doesn't it make sense to conserve, to try to tip things in
> our favor?

<SIGH>
Pathetic, narrow minded, senseless fools. I do hope you
don't survive to see the end of all your beliefs and lies.
There's no fool like the one who fools himself...you are one
of them.

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Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree
Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt
jewelry once in a while.
Dum vivimus, vivamus
<:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~

Nate Nagel - 25 Dec 2004 22:04 GMT
>>>>>>>   So?  Part of the whole issue from the
>>>>>>>environmental point of view is
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> There's no fool like the one who fools himself...you are one
> of them.

OK, let me break it down for you in small words.  "Don't crap where you
eat."  Get it now?

nate

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Keith Schiffner - 25 Dec 2004 22:10 GMT
SNIP

> OK, let me break it down for you in small words.  "Don't
> crap where you eat."  Get it now?

WOW, before I THOUGHT you were stupid. Now you prove
it...NOTHING we do really matters. If the earths Biosphere
can survive a meteor strike that eventually wiped out  over
90% of all life. WHAT makes you think anything our pathetic
little bunch of over-evolved apes is going to hurt it for
any appreciably lengthy time by Gaia's standards? How very
chauvinistic of you...how typically EGOTISICAL of ALL the
people like you. I really do hope you don't survive to see
us leave the earth in peace.

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Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree
Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt
jewelry once in a while.
Dum vivimus, vivamus
<:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~

Nate Nagel - 25 Dec 2004 22:32 GMT
> SNIP
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> people like you. I really do hope you don't survive to see
> us leave the earth in peace.

Earth's biosphere survived... most of the species then alive didn't.

I'm not egotistical, I just feel some connection to the human race and
want to see it live on, and not in a subsistence-agriculture sort of
manner either.

You're a very angry, yet stupid and selfish man.  Hopefully you won't be
able to cause too much harm before you leave this world.

nate

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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 23:50 GMT
> > SNIP
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> You're a very angry, yet stupid and selfish man.  Hopefully you won't be
> able to cause too much harm before you leave this world.

Regrettably, they are, quick. Only consolation is that pigs won't
survive. ;)
DustyRhoades@mailcity.com - 27 Dec 2004 01:21 GMT
No wander you seek attention with your stupid ranting. Why don't
you get a girlfriend, or a guy friend?  At least get a life.
Siting at a PC to post such inane stuff to a NG in the middle of
Christmas day says a lot about you.  Talk about windmills that is
so sad.

mike hunt

> Regrettably, they are, quick. Only consolation is that pigs won't
> survive. ;)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 27 Dec 2004 05:52 GMT
> No wander you seek attention with your stupid ranting. Why don't
> you get a girlfriend, or a guy friend?  At least get a life.
> Siting at a PC to post such inane stuff to a NG in the middle of
> Christmas day says a lot about you.