Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / January 2005
Are you in favor of an SUV endorsement?
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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 04:34 GMT Sure we need a tougher license, an endorsement if you will, just like motorcyclists, but for SUV drivers. They are the ones causing the mayhem!
They need an SUV endorsement!
Let's listen to what this man got to say...
"There are no unsafe vehicles. Only unsafe drivers."
Well, that's stretching it a bit, but I think you catch my drift.
I'm fanatical about safety. Been to 12 driving schools, and have certain habits I think all SUV owners should develop.
1. Of course, seatbelts. Not only for your own protection, but for everyone else's. An SUV can throw you far enough to be nowhere near the controls while still being *in* the vehicle.
2. I always ride the right edge of the lane I'm in, since most folks can't see around me. And if someone's trying to get a look around me for passing on a two-lane, I put the right side onto the shoulder so they can see.
3. This one's my favorite, and I was a strong advocate of it for motorcycles, to no avail: Tiered Licensing.
Basically, require a special license for driving certain vehicles, and make the test tough, including emergency handling, safe following distance, ultra-conservative passing practices, etc.
And give tickets for SUV's not riding the right edge of the lane. And suspend the license's SUV endorsement for especially dangerous activities like speeding (speed doesn't kill -- differences in speeds kill. 90mph isn't dangerous unless you're passing someone doing 70 or there's oncoming traffic) and tailgating. And like I think we should do with all vehicles; mandatory long jail time for DUI (attempted manslaughter, in my book).
4. Tack more onto the price of these things to discourage some of the pretenders. And use that money to fund 3rd-party attempts at making them more efficient and safe.
5. Mandatory impact heights. The technology exists (for a price -- oh well) to let these things ride at a nice low level while still allowing for increased clearance when needed. Their mass is still a problem, but if they don't ride up over the passengers of other cars, the people in those other cars have a much better chance of survival if they're belted in. Perhaps a "cow-catcher" type of arrangement that deploys only under heavy braking.
Personally, the people who buy these things just for looks tick me off enough that it wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if we had to demonstrate a need for one of these vehicles before being allowed to buy them.
And, as tired as I am of dirty looks and occasionally being flipped off when mine's loaded full of lumber and hauling an equally-loaded trailer, I'm even more tempted to flip off the guys and gals talking on their cell phones while blasting past my mud-encrusted Sub in their never-seen-dirt versions while tailgating Metros at high speed.
The people are the problem; not the vehicles.
And if knowing that they're paying $50k for a $30k vehicle doesn't discourage them, there need to be other ways to deal with the problem.
The automakers have a right to a profit, and they owe it to their shareholders to make as much as they can. I have a right to buy as much vehicle as I need. However, others have a right to not be in danger of my killing them with my monster ute.
I don't think all of these rights are mutually exclusive if enough thought is put into the problem.
I'm very much a tree-hugger myself ("Mother Earth News", "Home Power", 40 acres, most of which is very actively managed as wildlife habitat, etc), but the rights of the more radical of my ilk aren't more important than my rights and mine aren't more important than theirs.
Enough tiradin' for me. Would be interested in your thoughts.
http://www.mihalis.net/public/reasonable_SUV.html http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
John Harlow - 21 Dec 2004 04:44 GMT > Sure we need a tougher license, an endorsement if you will, just like > motorcyclists, but for SUV drivers. They are the ones causing the > mayhem! Oh yeah,we need more beauracracy. We have way too many personal freedoms as it is.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 05:12 GMT The freedom to reckless driving and mayhem is somewhat inconvenient to smaller vehicle though.
Besides the money raised can be used to support the troops in Iraq, a war that has the full support of SUV drivers.
Polarhound - 21 Dec 2004 07:48 GMT >>Sure we need a tougher license, an endorsement if you will, just like >>motorcyclists, but for SUV drivers. They are the ones causing the >>mayhem! > > Oh yeah,we need more beauracracy. We have way too many personal freedoms as > it is. Or you can just FIX the farm-business exemption that allows any business owner to write off half of the purchase price of any SUV.
BigJohnson@mailcity.com - 21 Dec 2004 16:30 GMT Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?' I believe you don't understand federal tax laws.
mike hunt
> Or you can just FIX the farm-business exemption that > allows any business owner to write off half of the > purchase price of any SUV. H.B. Elkins - 21 Dec 2004 16:49 GMT I am in favor of an SUV endorsement.
If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-)
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DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 17:20 GMT > I am in favor of an SUV endorsement. > > If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-) Do you look dumb?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 21 Dec 2004 17:21 GMT > I am in favor of an SUV endorsement. > > If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-) Do you look dumb?
Iggy - 22 Dec 2004 02:18 GMT >> I am in favor of an SUV endorsement. >> >> If someone will pay me to endorse an SUV, I will. ;-) >> > Do you look dumb? No, but you do....posting the same thing twice.
Then again, you always look stupid crossposting your SUV bullshit.
Scott M. Kozel - 22 Dec 2004 03:05 GMT > >> I am in favor of an SUV endorsement. > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Then again, you always look stupid crossposting your SUV bullshit. He looks stupid crossposting, period. Killfile his posts.
Polarhound - 22 Dec 2004 08:46 GMT > Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?' I believe you > don't understand federal tax laws. http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 22 Dec 2004 12:42 GMT > > Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?' I believe you > > don't understand federal tax laws. > > http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp Do the Uncle Sam always favor the rich? Jesus, it's the same guy that wants the poor to go to war to get the oil for the rich.
IleneDover@mailcity.com - 22 Dec 2004 15:11 GMT The poor don't use oil?
mike hunt
> > > Can you explain what do you mean by 'write off?' I believe you > > > don't understand federal tax laws. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Do the Uncle Sam always favor the rich? Jesus, it's the same guy that > wants the poor to go to war to get the oil for the rich. DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 22 Dec 2004 17:59 GMT > The poor don't use oil? > > mike hunt Sure, but mostly because THEY ARE FORCED TO. They got no option, you know.
They could get around with a bicycle or with efficient public transportation but got no choice. They must feed the dinosaur.
Charles Soto - 22 Dec 2004 18:37 GMT > > The poor don't use oil? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They could get around with a bicycle or with efficient public > transportation but got no choice. They must feed the dinosaur. That Barney is a right f.cker!
Charles
 Signature Charles Soto - Austin, TX *** 1999 GSF1200S, DoD No. "uno"
("Meepmeep" is "rr," as in Roadrunner, my ISP.)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 22 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT > > > The poor don't use oil? > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That Barney is a right f.cker! This ain't no Barney though. This is the MF Americanus Raptor... ;) http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum/3021914257/fetch/330301/
MikeHunt2@mailcity.com - 23 Dec 2004 00:59 GMT Do you believe the only thing we get from crude oil is gasoline? Quite obviously you do not live in Idaho you live in a fantasy land LOL
mike
> > The poor don't use oil? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > They could get around with a bicycle or with efficient public > transportation but got no choice. They must feed the dinosaur. DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 23 Dec 2004 04:13 GMT > Do you believe the only thing we get from crude oil is gasoline? > Quite obviously you do not live in Idaho you > live in a fantasy land LOL All the more to save gasoline. But you choose to waste it nevertheless.
RustyFender@mailcity.com - 23 Dec 2004 15:14 GMT Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil. If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned off at the refinery, as it was before it became a fuel for cars. Do some research
mike hunt
> > Do you believe the only thing we get from crude oil is gasoline? > > Quite obviously you do not live in Idaho you > > live in a fantasy land LOL > > All the more to save gasoline. But you choose to waste it nevertheless. DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 23 Dec 2004 15:42 GMT > Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil. > If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned > off at the refinery, as it was before it became a fuel for cars. > Do some research Imaginative theory. So if it was going to waste, why not burn it!? Does it make you smile while driving your SUV?
So instead of a polluter you think of yourself as some sort of vulture. Interesting.
"Breathing dirty air is just as harmful as smoking cigarettes."
But please don't "smoke" into my air...
Can you guess what one of the greatest threats to our health is?
That's right, air pollution. Pollution can occur naturally, like when a volcano erupts or lightening starts a forest fire. However, most air pollution is caused by humans. Cars are the biggest source of air pollution because there are so many of them on the road. Each time a car is running, it's making the air dirty. And believe it or not, short car trips make the most pollution.
Breathing dirty air is just as harmful as smoking cigarettes. Pollution can also make your eyes itch or burn, or cause you to cough or sneeze.
http://www.ridewise.org/kidcleanair.shtml
George Conklin - 23 Dec 2004 15:51 GMT > > Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil. > > If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > That's right, air pollution. Life expectancy is still going UP. Sorry about the factoid.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 23 Dec 2004 16:21 GMT > > That's right, air pollution. > > Life expectancy is still going UP. Sorry about the factoid. And so is lung desease. Many think breathing carbon monoxide is no good for your lungs. The only consolation we got is that your breath it too. Inhale deeply... ;)
Air Pollution, Heart Disease and Stroke
Exposure to air pollution contributes to the development of cardiovascular diseases (heart disease and stroke).
A person's relative risk due to air pollution is small compared with the impact of established cardiovascular risk factors such as smoking, obesity, or high blood pressure. However, this is a serious public health problem because an enormous number of people are exposed over an entire lifetime.
Background
Until May of 2004, the American Heart Association had not issued any expert reviewed statement about the short-term and long-term effects of chronic exposure to different pollutants. This was due to flaws in research design and methodology of many pollution studies. During the last decade, however, epidemiological studies conducted worldwide have shown a consistent, increased risk for cardiovascular events, including heart and stroke deaths, in relation to short- and long-term exposure to present-day concentrations of pollution, especially particulate matter.
Elderly patients, people with underlying heart or lung disease, lower socioeconomic populations and diabetics may be at particularly increased risk. More research is needed to find out the differential toxicity of various constituents of air pollution.
(snip)
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has declared that "tens of thousands of people die each year from breathing tiny particles in the environment." A recent report released by the nonprofit Health Effects Institute in Cambridge, Mass., agrees with the EPA assessment. This study was reviewed by Science magazine and clearly shows that death rates in the 90 largest U.S. cities rise by 0.5 percent with only a tiny increase - 10 micrograms (mcg) per cubic meter -- in particles less than 10 micrometers in diameter. This finding is similar to those of other studies throughout the world. The case is stronger with this study, because it eliminated several factors that could confound the interpretation of the data, such as temperature and other pollutants.
The number of deaths due to cardiac and respiratory problems may be small when looking at individual cities with small particles in the environment. The combined long-term effect of studies in several large cities predicts 60,000 deaths each year caused by particulate matter. This is a staggering loss of life that can be eliminated by stricter emissions standards as proposed by the EPA. http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4419
George Conklin - 23 Dec 2004 17:43 GMT > > > That's right, air pollution. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for your lungs. The only consolation we got is that your breath it too. > Inhale deeply... ;) When life expectancy is going UP, all you want to do is to cite studies which should prove it is going down. Wrong again. If you don't die of infection and other disease, cancer, heart attack and stroke are about all that keeps you from living forever. Air is cleaner now than 50 years ago, by a long shot, so if lung disease is going up as the air gets cleaner, then I guess you have proven we need dirty air?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 00:34 GMT > > > > That's right, air pollution. > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > by a long shot, so if lung disease is going up as the air gets cleaner, then > I guess you have proven we need dirty air? And what do you want to prove, that SUVs spew out oxygen?
Isn't it reasonable to assume that cleaner air came from OTHER sources, even though you kept spewing out carbon monoxide?
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 29 Dec 2004 14:20 GMT THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE IS NOT SUSTAINABLE
"History has shown that all empires relying on their military strength rise and fall bringing about huge catastrophes. America seems to follow with impetuous speed their paradigm."
I think whether we are the smartest or stupidest species on the face of the Earth will be put to the test soon. The latter possibility will bring us closer to the dinosaurs, the former will make us take the next evolutionary step...
"Shall we accept that it is the unavoidable fate of humans to obey this law of the jungle or we have the possibility to overcome it by a quantic jump in our understanding and consciousness?"
This article is dedicated to the wonderful but innocent people of America.
May be the time has arrived that the whole world must sit still for a while and meditate on the question whether we want to follow the "law of the jungle" or there is a possibility of a changed course of action. Shall we accept that it is the unavoidable fate of humans to obey this law of the jungle or we have the possibility to overcome it by a quantic jump in our understanding and consciousness?
It is absolutely sure that if globalization is not founded on moral values not only will fail but will bring about global calamities.
This assumption is based in the following logical ascertainments:
1. That the law that exists in the natural world is expressed as the "right of the strongest" or the "law of the jungle" as is more picturesquely expressed.
When we observe this "law" in action we realise that if we abandon a garden on which we cultivated useful fruit trees, in a few years, these evolved species of trees become weak and eventually die and their place is taken by wild plants and trees. Nature is not interested to ennoble the species, to evolve them, to make them more useful for humans, on the contrary according to the second law of thermodynamics nature is always tending to bring about a chaotic situation inertness and the lowest state of consciousness.
2. Humans on the other hand, have since long decided to go against this 'law of nature', and establish the moral law where the 'right' and the 'just' should prevail. The help to the weaker and the needy, the support of one another, the individual freedom, the respect of each other and the respect of the human laws are necessary. The declaration of the human rights, the basic rights and freedoms to which all human beings are entitled, - the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law. - was the result of human experience in order not to allow the law of the jungle `to prevail upon humanity. All these values were established in order to make possible the survival of the human race in separate societies but also to give the possibility for evolution and spiritual development. Humans are the only living creatures in the Cosmos that have the possibility of choosing either to 'create' or to 'destroy'. The technological advancement should have been the means of helping the evolution of humans not the means of their destruction.
It is therefor obvious that as long as the moral laws are not applied, the world will not march towards an evolution and the creation of a "new human being" but on the contrary will go on a chaotic and downward process where the law of the jungle will prevail even if the 'rulers' of our times will try to impose some kind of order that suits them.
The human rights declaration were expressed mainly by the European spirit. The moral law, was a law established by humans against the laws of nature. That is why, every time humans are trying to enforce the moral law, nature reacts in a thousand different ways in order to prevent the 'right' and the 'just' to be established and to prevail.
On the other side of this moral law lies what we see today. For instance Sadam applying the law of the "strongest" in Iraq brought all his people to the brink of total destruction. The American government applying the same law will also bring eventually these extraordinary people of America, to the brink of their own moral extinction.
History has shown that whoever leader (or group of leaders) attempted to impose their will through 'brutal power', was eventually enraptured in the arrogance of power and destroyed themselves and their own people. The last example was Hitler and all that the German race is suffering till now because of his brutal behaviour.
History has shown that all empires relying on their military strength rise and fall bringing about huge catastrophes. America seems to follow with impetuous speed their paradigm.
The whole world must meditate on the question whether we want to follow the same processes or there is a possibility of a changed course of action. Shall we accept that it is the unavoidable fate of humans to obey this law of the jungle or we have the possibility to overcome it by a quantic jump in our understanding and consciousness?
more...
http://www.vithoulkas.com/library_EN/horizons/horizons04.html http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 29 Dec 2004 16:11 GMT Seems you like to compare the US to dinosaurs, like that's a bad thing. The US is just barely over 200 years old. The dinosaurs ruled for 250 million years, we may even do as well. Find you windmill yet ;)
> THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE IS NOT SUSTAINABLE > [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > http://www.vithoulkas.com/library_EN/horizons/horizons04.html > http://committed.to/justiceforpeace DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 29 Dec 2004 18:05 GMT > Seems you like to compare the US to dinosaurs, like that's a bad > thing. The US is just barely over 200 years old. The dinosaurs > ruled for 250 million years, we may even do as well. Find you > windmill yet ;) Yeah, I found it. It's the dinosaur!
But they won't last that long given the nuclear tooth they got. At most 100 years maybe not even 50. And worst it can't even sleep, all because it won't declare the Law of the Jungle over.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 29 Dec 2004 20:56 GMT Apparently you are even anti nature as well LOL
mike hunt
> > Seems you like to compare the US to dinosaurs, like that's a bad > > thing. The US is just barely over 200 years old. The dinosaurs [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 100 years maybe not even 50. And worst it can't even sleep, all because > it won't declare the Law of the Jungle over. DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 29 Dec 2004 22:22 GMT > Apparently you are even anti nature as well LOL What nature? The jungle of nature is like a picnic compared to ours. And they don't prey on their own species.
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 30 Dec 2004 14:37 GMT Now that is funny. Obviously you know nothing of what goes on in nature as well. Get back to use when you finish your education LOL
mike hunt
> > Apparently you are even anti nature as well LOL > > What nature? The jungle of nature is like a picnic compared to ours. > And they don't prey on their own species. DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 30 Dec 2004 15:52 GMT > Now that is funny. Obviously you know nothing of what goes on in > nature as well. Get back to use when you finish your education > LOL I got entertained by your stupid television for too long. BBC nature shows are needed here...
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 30 Dec 2004 05:52 GMT >>>sierra_bardot <sierra_bardot@yahoo.com> wrote: I suppose we have to develop our listening abilities. s<<<
I say it specifically because I have gone to bicycle groups to propose bike lanes, and they don't want them; to the car groups to propose stricter licensing for SUVs because they are a threat to others, and they don't want to hear; to the radio groups saying too many strident commercials on the hour, and they ignore it; and the stupid drug prohibition that generates so much crime, and the parks being off limits to families because the homeless camp out there, and the Parking Authority who prays on the poor with a vengeance, and the littering, and the stupid policy on terrorism, and the bay with all the junk floating. So Americanus Raptor, the last dinosaur on Earth, refuses to evolve...
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com - 30 Dec 2004 14:52 GMT That is you trouble you live in a dream world of windmills, not the real world. Bike riders can have all the bike lanes they want. All they need do is pay for them, as vehicle owners pay for their roads with their license fees and fuel taxes. You should be glad those that pay for the roads let bikes share them for free. Bikes and their riders should be licensed and bike lanes could be paid for with tolls. Trust me building more bike lanes in the US for free is not going to happen, at least not in the real world where the rest of us reside. ;)
mike hunt
> >>>sierra_bardot <sierra_bardot@yahoo.com> wrote: > I suppose we have to develop our listening abilities. s<<< [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > floating. So Americanus Raptor, the last dinosaur on Earth, refuses to > evolve... RustyFender@mailcity.com - 23 Dec 2004 19:01 GMT I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need, as you seem to think you have. Your rantings will not change that, get over it
mike hunt
> > Gasoline is a byproduct of the distillation of crude oil. > > If we did not use it for transpiration it would be simply burned [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Imaginative theory. So if it was going to waste, why not burn it!? Does > it make you smile while driving your SUV? DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 01:05 GMT > I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe > it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need, > as you seem to think you have. Your rantings will not change > that, get over it My point is that America remains a jungle in 2004. Everything and anything is a consequence of that. I rest my case... ;)
DustyRhoades@mailcity.com - 24 Dec 2004 02:00 GMT Thank goodness. Does that mean you will finally go away now? ;)
mike hunt
> > I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe > > it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My point is that America remains a jungle in 2004. Everything and > anything is a consequence of that. I rest my case... ;) DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 03:20 GMT > Thank goodness. Does that mean you will finally go > away now? ;) In the spirit of Christmas...
Next topic will be "Are SUVs evil?"
Here's a preview...
"This is the subtext of the anti-SUV campaign: Consumers are too stupid to know their own interests, too stupid even to realize they're in cahoots with terrorists."
http://www.reason.com/sullum/011703.shtml
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 04:10 GMT > Thank goodness. Does that mean you will finally go > away now? ;) In the spirit of Christmas...
Next topic will be "Are SUVs evil?"
Here's a preview...
"This is the subtext of the anti-SUV campaign: Consumers are too stupid to know their own interests, too stupid even to realize they're in cahoots with terrorists."
http://www.reason.com/sullum/011703.shtml
Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 02:25 GMT > I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe > it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need, > as you seem to think you have. Your rantings will not change > that, get over it You are 100% correct (for once.)
HOWEVER:
1) we should not be encouraging excess consumption by giving corporations tax breaks on truck-based SUVs but not cars
2) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by enacting measures that replace fuel taxes with mileage-based taxes, as proposed in at least CA and VA.
4) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by keeping the obviously flawed CAFE system that imposes large fees on passenger cars that actually get *better* fuel mileage than SUVs which are not subject to the same standards, when they are used for the exact same purpose.
3) It is unconscionable that mfgrs. are allowed to run misleading advertising touting the "safety" of their SUVs by pointing out specific features like airbags, etc. giving the impression that they are safer than passenger cars when in fact usually the opposite is true; not only are most SUVs by nature unable to handle or stop as well as an average car but they also do not always meet the minimum safety requirements that *all* passenger cars must meet (I believe that this last is to change, or may have already changed however. That still does not negate the active safety advantages inherent to the passenger car.)
4) Most people who claim they "need" an SUV are quite simply full of caca. Nobody at all bought them until CAFE killed off the full sized car; 20 years ago even in rural areas Blazers, Broncos, Scouts, Jeeps etc. were the exception not the rule. It was rare to see one that wasn't modified for off-road, and unlike today, it seemed that a decent percentage of those actually did see occasional off-road use.
So you see, I do not argue for any legislative measures to discourage people from buying SUVs, nor do I wish to infringe on the right of people to buy whatever they please, so long as they can afford it. I am only arguing for more rational regulations that do not *encourage* their use when another, more efficient and safer vehicle would serve even better (a level playing field if you will) and of course, I reserve the right to laugh at and deride people who make stupid, short-sighted decisions in the name of "style."
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 15:34 GMT > > I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe > > it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 1) we should not be encouraging excess consumption by giving > corporations tax breaks on truck-based SUVs but not cars My my. That law was in place because it was assumed that a business actually hauled something.
> 2) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by enacting > measures that replace fuel taxes with mileage-based taxes, as proposed > in at least CA and VA. Excess consumption? Move to India. You can be a peasant and not excess consume anything. Become a monk and whip yourself over excess desires. Stop heating your house. Don't live in a house, but find a small apartment (400 square feet maximum) stacked on top of another one. You can share heated walls. Stop changing your clothes daily. Change them on Saturday nights when you bathe, like was common in 1900. Wear used clothes from Goodwill.
> 3) It is unconscionable that mfgrs. are allowed to run misleading > advertising touting the "safety" of their SUVs by pointing out specific [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > change, or may have already changed however. That still does not negate > the active safety advantages inherent to the passenger car.) Inherent? Any vehicle which used to tow needs a frame. To say that such things make passenger cars unsafe simply means you are against any truck-based vehicle.
> 4) Most people who claim they "need" an SUV are quite simply full of > caca. Really? Can you prove that?
Nobody at all bought them until CAFE killed off the full sized
> car; 20 years ago even in rural areas Blazers, Broncos, Scouts, Jeeps > etc. were the exception not the rule. It was rare to see one that > wasn't modified for off-road, and unlike today, it seemed that a decent > percentage of those actually did see occasional off-road use. I did not get a SUV until I found that without one I got stuck, big time.
Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 16:05 GMT >>>I personally do not have a need for an SUV, but I do not believe >>>it is my right to stop those that do from buying what they need, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > My my. That law was in place because it was assumed that a business > actually hauled something. But as with any law that's not completely thought through in terms of unintended consequences, abuse is widespread. Do you really think that *all* those Excursions are being utilized to the fullest, and not simply serving as a company car for someone because it's cheaper for the company than a passenger car?
>>2) we should also not be encouraging excess consumption by enacting >>measures that replace fuel taxes with mileage-based taxes, as proposed [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > nights when you bathe, like was common in 1900. Wear used clothes from > Goodwill. Hint: India is on the same planet as we are. Moving ain't gonna change anything - conservation begins at home. FWIW I do live frugally and try to conserve whenever possible. Why don't you?
>>3) It is unconscionable that mfgrs. are allowed to run misleading >>advertising touting the "safety" of their SUVs by pointing out specific [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > such things make passenger cars unsafe simply means you are against any > truck-based vehicle. Where did I say that the full frame was what made it unsafe? I'm referring to the high center of gravity relative to tread and wheelbase. I have no problem with buying a car with a full frame if I occasionally need to tow something. Too bad I can't - due to CAFE.
>>4) Most people who claim they "need" an SUV are quite simply full of >>caca. > > Really? Can you prove that? As stated in another post, my parents have been driving an '88 VW Golf for years in conditions far worse than what 99% of the people who "need" SUVs drive in. The Scout hasn't been on a public road in 10 years, and is only used to haul firewood.
In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of driver skill. Now there are cases where people do need to haul heavy loads etc. and either a pickup truck or SUV is required. However, I would imagine that had we not screwed up our laws so badly to preclude the same, a full-size, AWD sedan or station wagon would probably fill the needs of most SUV owners quite well, and more safely and economically. But again, due to CAFE, mfgrs. are loath to build big cars, as well as AWD cars, because both large size and AWD carry a gas mileage penalty - which isn't as big a deal for an SUV, because they play to a different set of numbers.
> Nobody at all bought them until CAFE killed off the full sized > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I did not get a SUV until I found that without one I got stuck, big > time. Again, you are a very rare person if you actually NEED an SUV to not get stuck. Heck, I've driven unloaded, 2WD trucks (as part of my job) in conditions that would make most SUV drivers stay inside (e.g. Mackinac Bridge and points north, in a snowstorm.)
nate
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Turby - 24 Dec 2004 16:55 GMT >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of >driver skill. I don't buy that. I see no need for a single person to own a sedan. I almost never need a back seat. In fact, I rarely need four wheels. On the odd occasion I do need a cage, it's to haul stuff that won't fit on a motorcycle, not people. I want a 4-wheel vehicle that's functional. One that will carry lots of stuff. Occasionally, I wish I had an SUV instead of my pickup, because it would have more security.
There is no inherent reason why SUVs cannot be more safe, more efficient, and more economical than most of today's cars. The industry has just chosen not to design and build them. The enemy is not the vehicles or the people who drive them. The enemy is the industry that won't improve their product, and the government that gives such poor leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement universal safety standards ala' seat belts, bumpers, etc.)
>Now there are cases where people do need to haul heavy >loads etc. and either a pickup truck or SUV is required. However, I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >mileage penalty - which isn't as big a deal for an SUV, because they >play to a different set of numbers.
 Signature Turby the Turbosurfer
Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 17:36 GMT >>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of >>driver skill. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > functional. One that will carry lots of stuff. Occasionally, I wish I > had an SUV instead of my pickup, because it would have more security. I actually agree with you here... a motorcycle isn't right for everyone, but I do agree that the smallest car that fits one's needs is a good thing. I don't have a problem with people who have a pickup or SUV for occasional use, it's the ones that drive them for every day, single passenger commuting that are really the problem.
For example, I have a job where I tend to have to carry some stuff around with me all the time, like a small assortment of tools, a laptop, and maybe some spare parts. But I am generally the only person in the car, so I don't need a large car. I'm currently driving a Porsche 944 which most people deride as "tiny" and a "toy" but hey, it carries whatever I need wherever I need to take it and it doesn't do it at 13 MPG either. As a side benefit, due to its small size and low CG (among other things) it handles exceptionally well which makes it much more likely that I'd be able to avoid an incident should I find myself in a situation where evasive maneuvers are required.
> There is no inherent reason why SUVs cannot be more safe, more > efficient, and more economical than most of today's cars. Sure there is, high CG, higher weight and limited track width (due to the width of a standard lane) all conspire to make a SUV by definition less safe and less economical than most passenger cars.
> The industry > has just chosen not to design and build them. An ignorant statement that does not become any less annoying with repetition. An SUV that is "as safe as" a car will not be a real SUV, likewise with economy. The engineers are not conspiring against the SUV-driving public; rather, you should be blaming those pesky laws of physics.
> The enemy is not the > vehicles or the people who drive them. The enemy *is* the ignorant people who drive them, when they don't really need them.
> The enemy is the industry that > won't improve their product, The industry will only produce what consumers will buy. If people suddenly started demanding large cars instead of SUVs (e.g. if Chrysler suddenly starts selling all the 300Cs it can produce at over list) you'd best believe that Ford, GM et. al. will be making some major changes to their product line and production mix.
> and the government that gives such poor > leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement > universal safety standards ala' seat belts, bumpers, etc.) Now that I will agree with. It would appear to an impartial observer that platitudes to the contrary, our gov't actually wants to promote the widespread use of SUVs over passenger cars.
nate
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Turby - 24 Dec 2004 18:22 GMT >>>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of >>>driver skill. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >the width of a standard lane) all conspire to make a SUV by definition >less safe and less economical than most passenger cars. That's assuming the current design definition for SUVs stays static. Citroen used to make cars that could be raised or lowered, depending on need. Honda's Element and the Scion XB don't fit into any of yesterday's categorys. SUVs don't _have_ to have a higher CG or higher weight than cars.
>> The industry >> has just chosen not to design and build them. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >SUV-driving public; rather, you should be blaming those pesky laws of >physics. I said "today's" cars. Sure, a streamlined car will be more economical, but today's cars are hardly a good standard for economy. The SUV of the future will be better than today's car.
>> The enemy is not the >> vehicles or the people who drive them. > >The enemy *is* the ignorant people who drive them, when they don't >really need them. You're asuming what other people's needs are. SUVs generally cost more than sedans. People are willing to pay extra for them, so they obviously feel some need.
>> The enemy is the industry that >> won't improve their product, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >best believe that Ford, GM et. al. will be making some major changes to >their product line and production mix. Hey, I'm demanding, but I don't see the product out there. I've been demanding better gas mileage for eons, but the only thing that's driven gas mileage up is government intervention, which is why I put a comma there to combine the two thoughts, not separate them. The industry _could_ take the initiative, like it did with extracab doors on pickups and a thousand other innovations for which we pay extra, but on gas mileage and safety, we don't get the option.
>> and the government that gives such poor >> leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >nate
 Signature Turby the Turbosurfer
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 19:30 GMT > Now that I will agree with. It would appear to an impartial observer
> that platitudes to the contrary, our gov't actually wants to promote the > widespread use of SUVs over passenger cars. Exactly, that's my point. So THE PROBLEM IS POLITICAL.
No matter how we scream or argue or make sense, the problem will continue because the problem is not the puppet but the puppeteer.
But I want remind our fellow Americans that there's hope, not far from America, actually in America. It's called the "Conch Republic." There you can drive an SUV, but, best of all, you can choose NOT to drive an SUV...
"After doing the Disney thing, and getting royally sunburned out on Lake Dora, Karen & I drove down through the Florida Keys and set up camp in Key West. This place is Heaven on Earth. Everyone is so serene & so peaceful (and so tan! :-). People down there really have a different mindset -- when you're surrounded by the sea, you learn to appreciate the simplicity and beauty of life and earth. The frenzy and chiseled-to-the-nanosecond pace of modern civilization has no place there. Key West natives are tuned to something quite different." http://kumo.swcp.com/synth/keywest/
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 21:51 GMT > > Now that I will agree with. It would appear to an impartial observer > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Exactly, that's my point. So THE PROBLEM IS POLITICAL. Snow, rough roads, hills, mountains and so forth are not political.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 05:19 GMT > > > Now that I will agree with. It would appear to an impartial observer > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Snow, rough roads, hills, mountains and so forth are not political. They have all those in other countries. And they survive it without Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles... Guess why. Right, THE PROBLEM IS POLITICAL. ;)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 18:04 GMT > >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of > >driver skill. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > functional. One that will carry lots of stuff. Occasionally, I wish I > had an SUV instead of my pickup, because it would have more security. It may not be the main reason, but it's certainly a big reason. The last vehicle a skillful drive would drive would be an automatic truck-like vehicle.
> There is no inherent reason why SUVs cannot be more safe, more > efficient, and more economical than most of today's cars. Unlikely since they are bigger, and bigger things use more energy. Elementary school issue.
The industry
> has just chosen not to design and build them. The enemy is not the > vehicles or the people who drive them. The enemy is the system that allows them to drive the way the please.
The enemy is the industry that
> won't improve their product, and the government that gives such poor > leadership. (Change the CAFE laws so SUVs must improve, implement > universal safety standards ala' seat belts, bumpers, etc.) Still the issue of danger to smaller vehicles won't be addressed. :( Should small vehicles be armored? ;)
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT "DonQuixote-v-Windmills" <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message >
The
> last vehicle a skillful drive would drive would be an automatic > truck-like vehicle. That is why professional truck drivers have automatics.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 24 Dec 2004 19:37 GMT > "DonQuixote-v-Windmills" <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That is why professional truck drivers have automatics. Only because it's a "JOB"... :)
bowman - 24 Dec 2004 23:27 GMT > That is why professional truck drivers have automatics. The closest I ever came to an automatic in a truck was the semi-automatic stashed in the sleeper.
ParrotRob - 26 Dec 2004 17:58 GMT > The enemy is the system that allows them to drive the way the please. Yes indeed. God forbid Americans should be able to buy/drive/do as they please.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 19:33 GMT > "DonQuixote-v-Windmills" <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1103911450.720194.233530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > > > The enemy is the system that allows them to drive the way the please. > > Yes indeed. God forbid Americans should be able to buy/drive/do as they > please. But what's really awesome is how they learn to behave so well without the whip... ;)
"Circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks his whip, but the really well-trained dog is the one that turns his somersault when there is no whip" -George Orwell
George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 19:17 GMT > >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of > >driver skill. > > I don't buy that. I see no need for a single person to own a sedan. I > almost never need a back seat. In fact, I rarely need four wheels. So why don't you use 4-legs, like Jesus did. Get a mule.
Turby - 24 Dec 2004 20:27 GMT >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of >> >driver skill. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So why don't you use 4-legs, like Jesus did. Get a mule. A mule can't go 1000 miles in a day, and the city won't let me keep one in my backyard.
OTOH, my motorcycles all have big lockable saddlebags that carry >90% of whatever I need to carry, can go almost anywhere, be parked almost anywhere, can be fed almost anywhere, and are a ton of fun, to boot. (And I don't have to kick them to get 'em to move.)
 Signature Turby the Turbosurfer
Nate Nagel - 24 Dec 2004 20:29 GMT >>>>In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of >>>>driver skill. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > anywhere, can be fed almost anywhere, and are a ton of fun, to boot. > (And I don't have to kick them to get 'em to move.) You must have one of those newfangled key start motorcycles then :)
nate
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George Conklin - 24 Dec 2004 21:53 GMT > >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack of > >> >driver skill. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > A mule can't go 1000 miles in a day, and the city won't let me keep > one in my backyard. So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us live near where we work (not 20 minutes away), use less, eat less, and revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway. Jesus rode a mule; you can too.
Turby - 25 Dec 2004 01:18 GMT >> >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack >of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway. Jesus rode a >mule; you can too. I _hope_ you're being facetious.
 Signature Turby the Turbosurfer
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 05:26 GMT > >> >> >In the vast majority of cases, the "need" for an SUV is based on lack > >of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I _hope_ you're being facetious. I see a weak point in his argument. You can worship the Devil if you want. Just don't say, "God Bless America"???
John David Galt - 25 Dec 2004 05:58 GMT >> So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is >> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us >> live near where we work (not 20 minutes away), use less, eat less, and >> revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway. Jesus rode a >> mule; you can too.
> I _hope_ you're being facetious. If only he (and the eco-nuts) were. But they've got their nice homes; the rest of us can walk, as far as they're concerned.
See www.vehiclechoice.org to combat this insanity.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 06:50 GMT > >> So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is > >> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > See www.vehiclechoice.org to combat this insanity. We want OPTIONS for you. Though some walking wouldn't do no harm...
Turby - 25 Dec 2004 18:16 GMT >>> So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is >>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If only he (and the eco-nuts) were. But they've got their nice homes; the >rest of us can walk, as far as they're concerned. I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss an issue because of its extremists.
 Signature Turby the Turbosurfer
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 18:52 GMT > >>> So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is > >>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss > an issue because of its extremists. You got a point there, but I took it in its right context... ;)
THE MULE http://www.kawasaki.com/uv/ (we only have to convert it to electricity now)
DTJ - 25 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might >be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss >an issue because of its extremists. No it is not. Take "global warming" for example. No such thing exists. Environuts use this pseudo science to force their ideals on the world. They have no interest in stopping "global warming", only in redistributing wealth to where they want it. So they make up theories, ignore facts and real science, and pay off the media to portray their fantasies on the rest of us. It has got to the point where the majority of Americans believe there is such a thing, regardless of the fact that 95% of people who consider themselves scientists know there isn't, and the 5% aren't really scientists.
George Conklin - 25 Dec 2004 20:20 GMT > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > exists. Environuts use this pseudo science to force their ideals on > the world. In 1975 we were being told we were on the edge of a new ice age. Same data: just different politics.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 23:35 GMT > > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in > > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In 1975 we were being told we were on the edge of a new ice age. Same > data: just different politics. You must have confused the "Cold War" for an Ice Age. They ain't the same thing, Brutus Maximus... ;_
Polarhound - 26 Dec 2004 00:40 GMT It gets better! Now their mantra is "global warming causes global cooling"
http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/news/freeze.html
Keith Schiffner - 26 Dec 2004 01:47 GMT > It gets better! Now their mantra is "global warming > causes global cooling" > > http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/news/freeze.html ROTFLMAO...dumbshits.
People who aren't smart enough to realize that the weather moves in cycles that are often of too great a length and breadth then their chauvinistic minds will dismiss it. Hopefully their children wont survive to live next to mine...mine aren't arrogant enough to believe they can know the number and variety of weather cycles or how the currently collapsing magnetosphere is affecting the weather. Let's not confuse the poor morons by pointing out that the magnetic poles are slowly (but speeding up) flipping position in conjunction with said disturbance in the fields...how arrogant of them to assume that less than 200 years of information gathering will give them any insight.
Make the world a better place burn a greenie!
 Signature Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~
Nate Nagel - 26 Dec 2004 01:48 GMT >>It gets better! Now their mantra is "global warming >>causes global cooling" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Make the world a better place burn a greenie! All the more reason to not f.ck with things you don't completely understand, like the ecosystem.
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
John David Galt - 26 Dec 2004 04:30 GMT >> People who aren't smart enough to realize that the weather moves in >> cycles that are often of too great a length and breadth then their [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> Make the world a better place burn a greenie!
> All the more reason to not f.ck with things you don't completely > understand, like the ecosystem. We may not understand it, but if warming turns out to exist and to be bad, it's trivially easy to undo: http://www.reason.com/9711/fe.benford.html
Nate Nagel - 26 Dec 2004 12:31 GMT >>> People who aren't smart enough to realize that the weather moves in >>> cycles that are often of too great a length and breadth then their [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > We may not understand it, but if warming turns out to exist and to be bad, > it's trivially easy to undo: http://www.reason.com/9711/fe.benford.html If you don't understand it, how can you make that statement with confidence?
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 06:45 GMT > >>It gets better! Now their mantra is "global warming > >>causes global cooling" [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > All the more reason to not f.ck with things you don't completely > understand, like the ecosystem. Don't try throwing pearls to the pigs.
Keith Schiffner - 26 Dec 2004 01:58 GMT Would somebody ICE the sonofabitch whose using the headers of others to claim he is them? PLEASE...I hate liars and HE is a liar!
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 06:47 GMT > Would somebody ICE the sonofabitch whose using the headers > of others to claim he is them? PLEASE...I hate liars and HE > is a liar! You got competition, man.
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 26 Dec 2004 06:44 GMT > > It gets better! Now their mantra is "global warming > > causes global cooling" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Make the world a better place burn a greenie! You live in the wrong country. You should move there (if you haven't moved already)...
BRUTUS MAXIMUS DRIVES AN SUV
This is an interview with Brutus Maximus...
Reporter: What do you need that for?
Brutus: I get a power trip out of it...
Reporter: Do you realize that you threaten the environment, others on the road as well as make wars for oil necessary?
Brutus: Listen, I pay taxes so I don't care. Besides the war makes a nice TV show. Some TV and Budweiser, isn't it life?
Reporter: What do you think of a place like Holland where people get around by bicycle?
Brutus: I take my bikes in the back of my SUV, so what's the point?
Reporter: What do you do with your spare time?
Brutus: I drive the SUV...
Reporter: Do you ever read?
Brutus: Nah, I don't like to waste my time...
Reporter: What do you think of the future of the world?
Brutus: I never think about it...
Reporter: Why do you fly an oversized American flag on your vehicle?
Brutus: It makes me feel like a patriot...
Reporter: Do you know that the whole world opposes the war?
Brutus: Remember, they are a bunch of anti-American losers...
Reporter: Are you worried about terrorism?
Brutus: Nah, I ain't got an arsenal for nothing...
Reporter: Any message for the troops?
Brutus: Yeah, I want more scenes of the Humvees hunting down the enemy. Hunt'm-down-smoke'm-out! God Bless America!!!
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 03 Jan 2005 03:56 GMT > > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in > > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In 1975 we were being told we were on the edge of a new ice age. Same > data: just different politics. You must have confused the "Cold War" for an Ice Age. They ain't the same thing, Brutus Maximus... ;_
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 23:30 GMT > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > regardless of the fact that 95% of people who consider themselves > scientists know there isn't, and the 5% aren't really scientists. We have enough "conspiracy theories." Environmentally concerned people are not nuts and there's conspiracy to redistribute wealth. It should be distributed, of course, but that's another subject... And where you got the 5% from, another "theory"? ;)
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 03 Jan 2005 03:56 GMT > >I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in > >it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > regardless of the fact that 95% of people who consider themselves > scientists know there isn't, and the 5% aren't really scientists. We have enough "conspiracy theories." Environmentally concerned people are not nuts and there's conspiracy to redistribute wealth. It should be distributed, of course, but that's another subject... And where you got the 5% from, another "theory"? ;)
John David Galt - 25 Dec 2004 20:12 GMT >>>> So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of view is >>>> that we travel too much and the goal is to cut back on travel by making us >>>> live near where we work (not 20 minutes away), use less, eat less, and >>>> revert back to sustainability, as defined by radicals anyway. Jesus rode a >>>> mule; you can too.
>>> I _hope_ you're being facetious.
>> If only he (and the eco-nuts) were. But they've got their nice homes; the >> rest of us can walk, as far as they're concerned.
> I'm more an environmentalist than most people, (I did get my degree in > it,) but you have to be a real extremist to actually think mules might > be an answer. And it's entirely too glib, (and too common,) to dismiss > an issue because of its extremists. Believe me, I don't. I dismiss environmentalism because: a) All the major assertions of "science" behind it have been disproven; b) All the major personalities behind it have been shown to be habitual liars; and c) The only non-extremists who believe that there's any reason for environmental concern are people who simply haven't carried their beliefs through to the logical conclusions they'd inevitably lead to if enacted.
I'll be happy to direct you to books that back this up.
Nate Nagel - 25 Dec 2004 21:40 GMT >>>>> So? Part of the whole issue from the environmental point of >>>>> view is [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > I'll be happy to direct you to books that back this up. Wow, you're an idiot.
It's real simple. There's a finite amount of resources on this planet, and the population is growing every day. We're highly dependent on non-renewable enegry sources. now the question is, will we run out before we either develop reliable, affordable space travel and/or renewable energy sources that adequately replace fossil fuels, or not?
Doesn't it make sense to conserve, to try to tip things in our favor?
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
Keith Schiffner - 25 Dec 2004 21:53 GMT >>>>>> So? Part of the whole issue from the >>>>>> environmental point of view is [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > energy sources that adequately replace fossil fuels, or > not? You REALLY believe that don't you? You aren't awayre of ALL the hydrocarbons available on the planet and the solar system are you? You people are SO earth centric it is pathetic...look OUT young fool.
> Doesn't it make sense to conserve, to try to tip things in > our favor? <SIGH> Pathetic, narrow minded, senseless fools. I do hope you don't survive to see the end of all your beliefs and lies. There's no fool like the one who fools himself...you are one of them.
 Signature Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~
Nate Nagel - 25 Dec 2004 22:04 GMT >>>>>>> So? Part of the whole issue from the >>>>>>>environmental point of view is [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > There's no fool like the one who fools himself...you are one > of them. OK, let me break it down for you in small words. "Don't crap where you eat." Get it now?
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
Keith Schiffner - 25 Dec 2004 22:10 GMT SNIP
> OK, let me break it down for you in small words. "Don't > crap where you eat." Get it now? WOW, before I THOUGHT you were stupid. Now you prove it...NOTHING we do really matters. If the earths Biosphere can survive a meteor strike that eventually wiped out over 90% of all life. WHAT makes you think anything our pathetic little bunch of over-evolved apes is going to hurt it for any appreciably lengthy time by Gaia's standards? How very chauvinistic of you...how typically EGOTISICAL of ALL the people like you. I really do hope you don't survive to see us leave the earth in peace.
 Signature Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~
Nate Nagel - 25 Dec 2004 22:32 GMT > SNIP > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > people like you. I really do hope you don't survive to see > us leave the earth in peace. Earth's biosphere survived... most of the species then alive didn't.
I'm not egotistical, I just feel some connection to the human race and want to see it live on, and not in a subsistence-agriculture sort of manner either.
You're a very angry, yet stupid and selfish man. Hopefully you won't be able to cause too much harm before you leave this world.
nate
 Signature replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 25 Dec 2004 23:50 GMT > > SNIP > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You're a very angry, yet stupid and selfish man. Hopefully you won't be > able to cause too much harm before you leave this world. Regrettably, they are, quick. Only consolation is that pigs won't survive. ;)
DustyRhoades@mailcity.com - 27 Dec 2004 01:21 GMT No wander you seek attention with your stupid ranting. Why don't you get a girlfriend, or a guy friend? At least get a life. Siting at a PC to post such inane stuff to a NG in the middle of Christmas day says a lot about you. Talk about windmills that is so sad.
mike hunt
> Regrettably, they are, quick. Only consolation is that pigs won't > survive. ;) DonQuixote-v-Windmills - 27 Dec 2004 05:52 GMT > No wander you seek attention with your stupid ranting. Why don't > you get a girlfriend, or a guy friend? At least get a life. > Siting at a PC to post such inane stuff to a NG in the middle of > Christmas day says a lot about you. |
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