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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / January 2005Car won't start ?
Hi all, I have a 1994 Mithsubishi KS Verada/Diamante v6 SOHC. Today I had the car washed (a red herring i think as there was now washing in the engine bay), we drove about 2kms to the local shopping centre. Turned the car off. We were there for about 10 minutes. I went to restart the car and it failed to turnover - it did try intially but then wouldn't even do that. I have checked all the connections and plugs. All the electricals and battery seem to be running OK, appears to be no spark or engine turnover. Any ideas ? Thanks Jason > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jason Its possible either the alternator got gutfull of wter and has stopped charging giving you a flat battery, or water got into the starter motor and has gummed up the solenoid. Its very common for alternators to stop charging after being doused with water. They do dry out after max-time a day and start working again. Jason Shouldn't be the battery it is showing 12.3 V. >> Hi all, >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Jason > Shouldn't be the battery it is showing 12.3 V. Do all the ignition lights and engine check light etc come on as normal? Is it auto/man? Is the battery clamp secure and clean? Do your headlights work? Regards, Clockmeister. > Shouldn't be the battery it is showing 12.3 V. But it might not have enough coulombs in it to pull the skin off a rice pudding. The only two ways to test a battery efficiently are a discharge test and reading the "specific gravity". I am *not* saying the battery *is* the problem. I am merely pointing out to anyone interested that a battery can read that level of voltage but have minimal charge capacity, beware.  SignatureTake Care. Feral I agree Feral, you are correct. But for a person with only a volt meter (not you, but Jason) the easiest way to test the battery, is to measure the voltage as someone else trys to crank the car over. If the voltage drops below 10 volts the battery most likely needs a charge. If it does, then check the alternator for function. Turning the head lights on and measuring the voltage is another method. This still doesn't rule out the battery, but it's a start. Do you have an independant battery charger, or can you get someone to jump start the car (if the battery is dead). If you get the car running, the voltage at the battery, with a functioning alternator, should be over 14 volts. 13 (13.9)volts or less and you do have an alternator/regulator problem. Good luck > > Shouldn't be the battery it is showing 12.3 V. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I am merely pointing out to anyone interested that a battery can read > that level of voltage but have minimal charge capacity, beware. I did try testing the voltage on startup. It definately did not go under 11V. To answer a few other Q's its an Auto, And all the ignition and check lights come on as normal. Headlightts work and the battery terminal is secure. Thanks Jason > I did try testing the voltage on startup. It definately did not go > under 11V. > > To answer a few other Q's its an Auto, And all the ignition and check > lights come on as normal. > Headlightts work and the battery terminal is secure. Make sure the park/neutral switch is working properly by wiggling the selector whilst holding the they to crank to see if there is a response. If that isn't the problem, it sounds like the starter motor may be U/S but check the fuses and fuseable links, relays (there may be one for the starter that you can swap temporarily with the horn one or similar) and check that the wires to the starter motor are secure, especially the small one. If there is a relay, you can check for a crank signal input/output pretty easily with a testlight to confirm that the ignition crank position is producing an output to the starter via the relay. Also, have you checked your oil lately and can you turn the motor by hand/spanner? Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try again. Regards, Clockmeister. >Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try >again. He shouldn't take his aggression out on the starter motor, he should hit himself and try again. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >>Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try >>again. > > He shouldn't take his aggression out on the starter motor, he should > hit himself and try again. That wasn't such a crazy suggestion. I had an Audi '85 5000 STD (that's turbo-diesel, not the other kind ;^) and there were a couple of times when it wouldn't start. I heard a relay click, but nothing else. I found that a solid thump with a straight tire iron at the solenoid bulge on the starter motor would free up whatever was gummed up in there. As I understand it: ignition key -> relay -> solenoid -> starter motor. In other words the solenoid has a built in high current relay, a set of contacts that are bridged when the solenoid "pulls in" to engage the Bendix (if that is what it is properly called?) gear with the outside teeth of the flywheel. The "solid tap" has worked for me a few times, on that particular car (and ISTR an earlier odd-ball?). SignatureJuhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc. > As I understand it: ignition key -> relay -> solenoid -> starter motor. In > other words the solenoid has a built in high current relay, a set of > contacts that are bridged when the solenoid "pulls in" to engage the > Bendix (if that is what it is properly called?) gear with the outside > teeth of the flywheel. Bendix type starters such as the Lucas M35 relied on inertia to pull the starter gear down a spiral into the ring gear and had no solenoid on the starter motor. If there's a solenoid on the starter then it's not a Bendix starter. >> As I understand it: ignition key -> relay -> solenoid -> starter motor. In >> other words the solenoid has a built in high current relay, a set of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > starter motor. If there's a solenoid on the starter then it's not a > Bendix starter. Ah, thanks for the correction! Seems like a neat idea. Does anyone use a Bendix anymore? I guess that means you still need a high current relay somewhere. SignatureJuhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc. >>Bendix type starters such as the Lucas M35 relied on inertia to pull the >>starter gear down a spiral into the ring gear and had no solenoid on the >>starter motor. If there's a solenoid on the starter then it's not a >>Bendix starter. > Ah, thanks for the correction! > Seems like a neat idea. Does anyone use a Bendix anymore? Like a lot of British engineering, it is a neat idea, but it needed the Japanese to make it work right (or find a better way). They were inclined to stick, and in the end a modern pre-engaged starter is just a better answer. > I guess that means you still need a high current relay somewhere. Morris Minors had a starter switch which just pulled a plate across a pair of contacts. No relay whatsoever. Early Minis had a similar device, looked like a doorstop, beside the driver's seat, which pushed the plate across contacts. > >>Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try > >>again. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That wasn't such a crazy suggestion. Not at all, it can be an invaluable diagnostic tool. I was serious! >> >>Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try >> >>again. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Not at all, it can be an invaluable diagnostic tool. I was serious! Yes maybe but percussive maintenance is frowned upon Clockie.. alias Fonzie. I have never had to beat any starter motor to diagnose an electrical problem. I have seen people repeatedly beat their starter when the battery is at fault. This is unkind to innocent starter motors and the person doing the beating should be beaten with a frayed acid soaked battery lead. This is similar to people who swear and beat their steering wheel and go Wah..hhhaaahh..why me Lord.. I want my mummeee..sob sniff.. when the car won't start. If this keeps up we may as well all go back to living in trees and swinging on vines for transport, beating our chests and screaming when something goes wrong..swing.. snap..thud..thump thump thump EEeeeeeaaAAaarrhhhaaaRRrhhhaAA.. cough cough wheeze. Oh lookie, I found a banana. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >> >>Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try > >> >>again. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Fonzie. I have never had to beat any starter motor to diagnose an > electrical problem. So you are just a 'parts changer' then? Keep throwing new parts at it and 'something' 'hopefully' has to fix it before you go bankrupt eh? A quick tap with a hammer on a starter can diagnose a stuck or worn out brush and/or a bad solenoid according to what 'clicks' or what symptoms change if any. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > > >> >>Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try > > >> >>again. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > brush and/or a bad solenoid according to what 'clicks' or what symptoms > change if any. Damn right, it's a valuable diagnostic tool. >>>>>>On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:07:57 +0800, "Clockmeister" > > <no-one@nowhere.com> > >>>>>>wrote: What about us poor deaf buggers?????? SignatureTake Care (with the hammer) Feral >> > >> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:07:57 +0800, "Clockmeister" ><no-one@nowhere.com> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Keep throwing new parts at it and 'something' 'hopefully' has to fix it >> before you go bankrupt eh? Nope, I have a the correct tools, meters etc, therfore I have never had to resort to violence ;-) Also hitting it is not a way to 'fix' it. I fix a starter to a servicable condition with whatever parts it needs after non-percussive diagnosis. >> A quick tap with a hammer on a starter can diagnose a stuck or worn out >> brush and/or a bad solenoid according to what 'clicks' or what symptoms >> change if any. > >Damn right, it's a valuable diagnostic tool. Good grief, when it comes to electrical diagnosis, a hammer is not necessary. That's all I was on about :-) Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >> > >> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:07:57 +0800, "Clockmeister" > ><no-one@nowhere.com> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > had to resort to violence ;-) Also hitting it is not a way to 'fix' > it. Never suggested it was, it's a valuable *diagnostic* tool though. I fix a starter to a servicable condition with whatever parts it > needs after non-percussive diagnosis. Shame if it's an electro-mechanical fault that can't be diagnosed with a multimeter. > >> A quick tap with a hammer on a starter can diagnose a stuck or worn out > >> brush and/or a bad solenoid according to what 'clicks' or what symptoms [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Good grief, when it comes to electrical diagnosis, a hammer is not > necessary. That's all I was on about :-) Shame that you don't use all available tools to your advantage especially when it come to diagnosis because all top tradespeople do. >> >> > On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:35:39 +0800, "Clockmeister" ><no-one@nowhere.com> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Shame that you don't use all available tools to your advantage especially >when it come to diagnosis because all top tradespeople do. Many a time I have saved someone a lot of bucks by finding the real problem where a mechanic has condemned the starter motor. It would be quite easy to disturb a wiring problem or loose connection whilst flogging away with a hammer. I find most mechanics are quite thick when it comes to electrics. Not saying you are of course Clocky, but you know what I mean -- It's the starter motor Lady -- turned out to be the start wire to the solenoid rubbed through and grounded intermittently. Got plenty more examples. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >> >> > On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:35:39 +0800, "Clockmeister" > ><no-one@nowhere.com> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > quite easy to disturb a wiring problem or loose connection whilst > flogging away with a hammer. That's why I listed those in the things to check before mentioning the hammer. Ofcourse you check everything else first. I find most mechanics are quite thick > when it comes to electrics. Sparky's are quite thick when it comes to mechanical things, apparantly ;-) Not saying you are of course Clocky, but > you know what I mean -- It's the starter motor Lady -- turned out to > be the start wire to the solenoid rubbed through and grounded > intermittently. Got plenty more examples. Like I said, I advised him to check everything else first, but failing that a tap with a hammer can diagnose an electro-mechanical fault quickly and easily. >Like I said, I advised him to check everything else first, but failing that >a tap with a hammer can diagnose an electro-mechanical fault quickly and >easily. That may be fine for people without the correct gear, but IIRC he did say he had a multimeter, whether he knows how to measure voltage drops is unlikely. You did mention a hammer being a professional diagnostic tool but failed to mention it being a last resort IIRC.. lots of IIRCs in this :-) The last guy I helped was having no luck belting his mothers cars starter with a hammer. He was a plumber. I told him to behave and stop hitting it while I went for the meter. Measured the battery under load and it was flat. Just started with the trusty Lada and it wasn't charging which turned out to be a failed alternator. Now if people start with the hammer they could belt the starter all day but it is very unlikely that it will give in and tell them 'it ain't me, it's the alternators fault'. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >Like I said, I advised him to check everything else first, but failing that > >a tap with a hammer can diagnose an electro-mechanical fault quickly and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > tool but failed to mention it being a last resort IIRC.. lots of IIRCs > in this :-) Allow me to quote myself... "Make sure the park/neutral switch is working properly by wiggling the selector whilst holding the they to crank to see if there is a response. If that isn't the problem, it sounds like the starter motor may be U/S but check the fuses and fuseable links, relays (there may be one for the starter that you can swap temporarily with the horn one or similar) and check that the wires to the starter motor are secure, especially the small one. If there is a relay, you can check for a crank signal input/output pretty easily with a testlight to confirm that the ignition crank position is producing an output to the starter via the relay. Also, have you checked your oil lately and can you turn the motor by hand/spanner? Failing that, give the starter motor a solid tap with a hammer and try again. Regards, Clockmeister." > The last guy I helped was having no luck belting his mothers cars > starter with a hammer. He was a plumber. I told him to behave and stop [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > very unlikely that it will give in and tell them 'it ain't me, it's > the alternators fault'. I think we all understand that, but that doesn't take away the fact that is is a valuable diagnostic tool. >Allow me to quote myself... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Clockmeister." Well that's sounds fair enough, but I've never had to resort to the hammer. It's a bit Neanderthal :-) hmmm maybe Neanderthals only had clubs, best check that one out. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >Allow me to quote myself... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Clockmeister." Well that's sounds fair enough, but I've never had to resort to the hammer. It's a bit Neanderthal :-) hmmm maybe Neanderthals only had clubs, best check that one out. ******Neandertal not Neanderthal, it doesn't have a h IIRC Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > >Allow me to quote myself... > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > ******Neandertal not Neanderthal, it doesn't have a h IIRC Yeah, it does have an h :-) Washing the engine shouldn't do anything to the car. At most you will get the plug wires wet and have some misfiring. It is possible they blasted a wire loose. The most likely culprit is the cam angle sensor. If that signal doesn't make it, the car will not start. I will store a code, but you can't see it because it wont start. Check that connection first. SignatureTodd Honea > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jason > I have a 1994 Mithsubishi KS Verada/Diamante v6 SOHC. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have checked all the connections and plugs. All the electricals and > battery seem to be running OK, appears to be no spark or engine turnover. Possibly a crack in the distributor cap? letting in moisture? I remember years ago working on a buddy's car in the (cooling) evening. We had the distributor cap off, and finished up at dusk. The engine just would not fire. My friend looked at me with a sad expression that said "you broke my car". On a hunch, I dried the inside of the distributor cap with paper towels, and it fired right up. Dunno if modern electronic ignitions are as much affected, but I think so. Distributor still handles high voltage. SignatureJuhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc. >> I have a 1994 Mithsubishi KS Verada/Diamante v6 SOHC. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >towels, and it fired right up. Dunno if modern electronic ignitions are as >much affected, but I think so. Distributor still handles high voltage. Oh well at least you didn't keep cranking until the battery went flat like most people do. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html When you say "turnover" do you mean it won't crank or do mean it won't start? > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Jason >When you say "turnover" do you mean it won't crank or do mean it won't >start? I guess he means the engine fails to rotate at enough revolutions with the assistance of the starting motor to initiate the internal combustion process. On the other hand, if it was a 4WD then he would probably mean, roll over in the long grass and play dead. I've seen both Magna and a big 4WD do this so I can understand your confusion. Al I don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html I mean it won't crank. I can hear all the realys click etc when the ignition is turned on but then I get nothing. I am guessing it is the starter motor, as there is no spark or engine movement. Although a couple of times early on it has had a very small movement. Thanks for all your help so far. I will let you know how it goes. >I mean it won't crank. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >movement. >Thanks for all your help so far. I will let you know how it goes. Ahhh, finally enough information for me to pipe in... Okay, if you hear the starter relay click, and if the battery voltage does not drop below 11 VDC, my guess is that you have a bad starter solenoid. This is the electromagnetic "plunger" that drives the starter drive gear into the engine's flywheel. Most times you can replace this item seperately from the starter, but since it's mounted on the starter and you have to remove the starter motor in order to access the solenoid, I usually replace the starter motor as a matter of routine. Raymond Sirois SysOp: The Lost Chord BBS 607-733-5745 telnet://thelostchord.dns2go.com:6000 If the starter solenoid clicks then its not the solenoid but the starter thats bad. Mark >>I mean it won't crank. >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 607-733-5745 > telnet://thelostchord.dns2go.com:6000 >If the starter solenoid clicks then its not the solenoid but the starter >thats bad. >Mark Read the post, Mark. He says he hears the RELAYS click. Says nothing at all about the solenoid. Basic electricity. The starter RELAY controls high current connection from the battery to the starter motor by way of a low current circuit between the battery and the key switch by way of a device known as a relay. The SOLENOID is an electo-mechanical device that operates on the principle of an electromagnet, activating a linkage (either radial or coaxial) that enables the starter gear to engage the flywheel. Don't feel bad. The inexperienced and uneducated often confuse the starter relay with the starter solenoid. You're in "good" company. >>>I mean it won't crank. >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> 607-733-5745 >> telnet://thelostchord.dns2go.com:6000 Raymond Sirois SysOp: The Lost Chord BBS 607-733-5745 telnet://thelostchord.dns2go.com:6000 OK so here is the answer. It is the Starter Motor - totally screwed ! My "slow" oil leak was leaking into the starter motor which was nice and full of gunk and oil. New starter motor required and I guess I will have to address the oil leak as well. Thanks for all your help. Jason I mean it won't crank. I can hear all the realys click etc when the ignition is turned on but then I get nothing. (And I have checked all the relays and fuses) I am guessing it is the starter motor, as there is no spark or engine movement. Although a couple of times early on it has had a very small movement. Thanks for all your help so far. I will let you know how it goes. |
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