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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / April 2005Are American Roads a Jungle?
see results at... http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=122628 Are American Roads a Jungle? "I have managed to survive more than 12 months driving here, and I thought I would share some tips with you, in case you ever develop masochistic tendencies and evince a desire to drive here. These tips will help you blend in." Surviving in the jungle for 12 month ain't easy feat. It takes a lot of knowledge of the laws...of the jungle. Number one is, size matters, like the big fish eats the little fish... But don't take it from me... Choice of Vehicle -Choose the largest vehicle you can. Because petrol is so cheap here, no matter how large your vehicle is, it still won't cost much to run. A very large vehicle gives you several advantages. -A large vehicle will allow you to see the traffic. If everyone is driving normal size cars, everyone can see ahead to watch for stopping or danger, and everyone can see if it's safe to turn left or right. However, no-one drives normal size cars here. Everyone is driving large vehicles. If you drive a normal size car, the sort found in the rest of the world, you will be unable to see anything other than the tops of the wheels of the other vehicles. This is clearly dangerous. Your only recourse is to drive a huge vehicle yourself. The bigger the better, because then you can peer over the tops of the other vehicles and be alert for danger. -The larger the vehicle you are driving, the more you can intimidate the fools who choose to drive anything smaller. You will often need to force other vehicles out of your way, especially those fools who misunderstand the speed limits. And any fool who hesitates. If you have a vehicle the same size as the one you want to intimidate, you are going to make no impression on the other driver. Remember, they aren't usually watching the road, so they won't notice your vehicle unless you are really, really HUGE. If your vehicle is 6 times their size, then they will notice you and they will hear you. You can happily ignore them. They will stop or veer away from you because they know they will be crushed by your juggernaut if they don't. -When you choose your large vehicle, it will be unfinished. You will need to modify the vehicle to suit your personality and abilities. Generally speaking, you should enlarge your vehicle. Make it an extra 3 feet higher by adding massive shock absorbers and hydraulics. Make it bigger again by adding oversized tyres. Make it wider by adding wide tyres or huge side mirrors. You should aim to make the vehicle appear bigger and bulkier. The bigger you are, the better you can be seen. The bigger you are, the more vehicles you can intimidate. On The Road -Do not use your indicators to change lanes. It is a sign of weakness, a warning that you not confident or skilled enough to simply move into the next lane. Indicators are usually used by drivers who are not travelling with the pack and are unable to simply move into a gap. If you use your indicators, you will be seen as a dangerous driver and other drivers will PUNISH you. They will punish you by immediately moving up to block your passage. -Do not use your indicators when turning corners. It is unnecessary as no-one needs to know if you are turning or not. -Because of the nature of the roads, you will often enter a highway in the right-most lane, and need to turn left almost immediately afterwards. You will need to cross four or five lanes almost immediately. This is relatively easy and should be done without the use of indicators. If you use your indicators, other drivers will close up and prevent your passage. Most drivers will be travelling in packs and travelling at speed. You can trust them to maintain their formations. Simply swing across into the desired lane. They will trust you too and they will not slow down or swerve. They will simply ignore you. This is correct behaviour and traffic will flow smoothly. -When you first obtain a drivers license in your state of choice, you have to sit for a small examination to show that you know the rules of the road. You will be given a small booklet with the rules in it and expected to memorise it. Two things to remember. The book contains rules and numbers that you have to remember just long enough to pass the exam and get your license. It can then be forgotten. This is a small exercise in short-term memory abilities. And anyway, the rules are optional. They are for ideal conditions, like when a traffic policeman is watching you carefully. They are not meant to be used in the real world. For example, the book says you should not cross unbroken white lines. In reality, you should not cross unbroken white lines unless you want to. Sharing The Road -You might sometimes notice that there are things on the road that are smaller than smaller vehicles. I refer to motorcycles, bicycles, pedestrians and animals. These are small and can generally be ignored. more... http://www.hgriggs.com/driving.html http://committed.to/justiceforpeace Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving? > see results at... > http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=122628 [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > http://committed.to/justiceforpeace > Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving? If you've driven I-95 in Florida then you know the jungle. The problem is SUVs, kids racing among cars, supersonic motorcyclists and every other suicidal driver out there. And of course, this other issue... There's something particularly bad about American roads: LACK OF LANE DISCIPLINE. Nobody enforces that here. This makes our roads nothing short of CHAOTIC and DEADLY. And then if you choose to do the right thing and drive a small car, you will understand how you feel when those 5 ton vehicles whistle past you on all sides... 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep right except to pass. In addition you will save a considerable number of lives. This will also take care of much of the problem driving having to do with talking on phones applying makeup etc. The reason being that the majority of times I see it as a problem the driver is in the LEFT lane weaving. If we institute keep right except to pass we can safely blow by these idiots when we think it is safe to do so rather than having them hang out next to us. As for those of you concerned about being stuck in the right lane going too slowly. I can assure you that if the faster drivers are allowed to get by, without being roadblocked in the passing lane, you will not have a buildup of cars that will take 5 minutes to go by in close proximity to each other. In addition whenever I have seen the situation described in the previous paragraph, the right lane is basically doing the speed limit. Your real complaint is that the speed limits are too low and you want to hang out in the left lane at a higher speed but don't want to be courteous and pullover to allow others to pass.' http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/di...w/.ef08fa1/4340 >>Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving? > > If you've driven I-95 in Florida then you know the jungle. I did, just yesterday, from Jacksonville to Daytona (then took 4 over to Orlando) > The problem > is SUVs, kids racing among cars, supersonic motorcyclists and every > other suicidal driver out there. And of course, this other issue... Didn't see any of this. Hell, I was on the only motorcycle I saw on the road in that 140 miles and I was following an SUV with 3 adults and 2 kids (my wife, her bother and his wife and their 2 kids). We moved along at a leisurely 80-85 MPH. > There's something particularly bad about American roads: LACK OF LANE > DISCIPLINE. Nobody enforces that here. This makes our roads nothing > short of CHAOTIC and DEADLY. And then if you choose to do the right > thing and drive a small car, you will understand how you feel when > those 5 ton vehicles whistle past you on all sides... Lack of lane discipline? Does this refer to stay in the right lane except to pass, or to people drifting between lanes? I didn't see either problem yesterday, everyone was moving at relatively close speeds, so the left lane was moving just a few MPH faster then the right, no one drifting between lanes. > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > have a buildup of cars that will take 5 minutes to go by in close > proximity to each other. Then you've never lived in an area where 90% of the traffic is at or over the speed limit while the other 10% is under the speed limit with this enforced. > In addition whenever I have seen the situation described in the > previous paragraph, the right lane is basically doing the speed limit. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/di...w/.ef08fa1/4340 I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.  SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane > because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at the > 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane. The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Impotence...Nature's way of saying "No hard feelings. >> I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane >> because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at >> the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane. > > The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph > and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80. Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > >> I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane > >> because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when they're driving along minding their own business. >> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >> and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. > >So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when >they're driving along minding their own business. If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane, then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business, as well. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: > If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane, > then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business, > as well. Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote. It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Read your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few interesting things. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can search the California vehicle Code as long as you want, and you will NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth. Law abiding drivers have every right to mind their own business in the lane closest to the center divider while cruising at the speed limit. That's what the lane is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it your personal race track where you're allowed to pass everybody on the road and expect them to get out of your way. Don't flash your lights at other motorists, expecting them to just get out of your way. Light flashing on the freeways is illegal and may lead to incidents of road rage. There is only ONE situation where you can legally flash your lights or toot your horn when you come up behind a slower moving vehicle in California. That's when you're on a two-lane road and you have a quarter of a mile clear space to pass a slow moving vehicle. That slower driver is supposed to move as far to the right as possible, but he doesn't have to drive on the shoulder for you. If you can't pass in that situation, don't even try it. Finally, the signs that say "Slower Traffic Keep Right" do not refer to motorists driving in the lane closest to the center divider if they are driving at the speed limit. The "Slower Traffic Keep Right" signs mean that busses and trucks and underpowered vehicles that can't reach the speed limit have to move over to the right. Unfortunately, brain dead dipshits like Scott here may be trying to pass everybody who won't move out of the left lanes. This moron may be driving 100 mph in what he thinks is "the slow lane". If it's the "slow lane", why the f.ck is Scott driving 100 mph in it? It's because he's retarded... spectraltars...@aol.com wrote: > Scott en Aztlán wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > where you're allowed to pass everybody on the road and expect them to > get out of your way. And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on top of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a lesser threat to others by itself. I think kids can come up with a better system than that. But lawyers and bureaucrats can't. :( > spectraltars...@aol.com wrote: > > That's what the lane is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it > > your personal race track where you're allowed to pass everybody > > on the road and expect them to get out of your way. > And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic > roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think kids can come up with a better system than that. > But lawyers and bureaucrats can't. :( Yeah, I know. You want a "rational" use of America's highways, based upon the myth of the lane-disciplined German autobahn... We have a lot of children walking around in adult bodies here in California. Having had very little discipline in their upbringing, they believe in moral relativity: whatever they want to do must be OK, because they want to do it, and they see "everybody else" doing "it", so why *shouldn't* they do what "everybody else" is doing? Traffic court judges hear that defense all the time, and the judges convict the offenders routinely. But an offender can get away with his bad behavior for years, just by taking traffic school once every 18 months and his license to drive won't be suspended or revoked... California has its own peculiar set of laws regulating how drivers shall operate their motor vehicles upon California highways. Allowing drivers to pass on the right or the left on the freeways is one of the major differnces between California and New York or Missouri, for example, or Germany's famous autobahns, where everybody must keep right except while passing... New Yorkers used to flashing their lights at cars they are overtaking even do it in city traffic in Manhattan, if you can imagine some aggressive moron driving down a city street signed for 35 mph, but he's doing 60 mph because he sees a gap between him and the car a quarter of a mile ahead, so the idiot starts flashing his lights as if to say, "Get out of my way, I'm coming through!" So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York license plates when he finally passes me---in a different lane, I'm NOT going to move over for him just because he's being an a.shole about his *imaginary* "rights"... And that autobahn rule works fairly well in Germany, as long as traffic is light. But most drivers in America have never seen the narrow lanes of the almost empty autobahn, or Italy's empty autostrada, or England or France's wide open highways between major cities... First time I ever saw the autobahn, I thought to myself, "That is a really *small* freeway, it's no wider than the old Pasadena freeway from Pasadena to Los Angeles that was built in the 1940's or 1950's... Many drivers will get onto a nearly empty freeway in the early morning hours just before dawn and drive ten or fifteen miles an hour over the speed limit and think, "Well, *that's* what the freeways were designed for, so I can drive 80 miles an hour and get where I'm going really quick!" On a recently completed stretch of freeway between Pasadena and San Bernardino, commuters *ass-umed* that it was somehow "OK" to drive 100 miles per hour because the new road was almost empty. The California Highway Patrol stopped hundreds of them and helped the traffic courts empty those morons' wallets... The fine for driving over 100 mph may be as high as $1000 or six months in county jail, last time I checked into it... The highway engineers in California predicted the present day extreme high traffic density on the freeways when they designed them to *move cars to their destinations*, not to feed the egos of speed demon drivers... So California has six-lane freeways headed from the suburbs to the skyscrapers downtown where many people work in offices and have to be at work by 8 AM or 9 AM Monday through Friday, and these office workers all want to drive by themselves in their own car, and they make a parking lot out of the freeway at the same time every day, going to work and coming home, and like little kids, they blame everybody else while they sit there motionless in traffic... No amount of autobahn-style "lane discipline" is going to make the commute any faster, only car pooling and use of public transportation is going to do that. (Or ride in the car pool lanes on a motorcycle, while being tailgated by morons in cars who think that the car pool lane is their own private race track, and that they should be able to drive 80 or 90 mph and that the cars ahead should pull over to the right when they flash their lights. Cheezus, what stupidity!) The price of fuel is so high in European countries, automobiles are so expensive that only the very rich can afford to drive, so they believe they should be able to drive as fast as they please, having paid a lot of money for their vehicle... And the railroad system still works, so if a citizen of a European country wants to go somewhere, he can take a train and relax and read a magazine. Most Europeans would be unwilling to get up at 4:00 AM and commute an hour each way to go to work, though. If they can't get a job in their own town, they won't work. But that rich German Porsche or Mercedes Benz driver heading for the office in the morning gets on the autobahn and he wants to drive as fast as he pleases, so he comes up behind somebody in a slower car and if the driver ahead is still in the process of passing and getting over to the right, the overtaking driver will turn his left turn signal on to let the driver ahead know he's there and wants to pass. And the Germans recently made flashing one's high beams at cars ahead illegal. At some point the traffic gets so heavy that there is always a line of cars trying to leap frog their way past a line of slower trucks and busses... And, somebody in a big fast car will be wanting to drive 90 or 100 mph, and they are also supposed to move over into the line of slow moving and merge with the slow traffic. So this means the driver has to make sudden movements of the steering wheel at high speeds, instead of just holding the steering wheel in one position and gruising at 90 mph in the left hand lane... I saw a video tape of a Mercedes Benz that crashed while the driver was just trying to obey the "pass left/drive right" rule. The car started fish tailing, crashed, turned over... Then there are the rich sportscar drivers in Italy, where there are different speed limits based upon the size of the engine in the car. Little Fiat Pandas were limited to 55 mph last time I was over there, but cars with bigger engines could go faster... An American tourist told me that he rented a Fiat in Italy and was driving in the left hand lane, obeying the speed limit, and a Ferrari came up behind him and started flashing his lights. When he didn't move over, the Ferrari driver started bumping his car with his front bumper! spectraltars...@aol.com wrote: > > spectraltars...@aol.com wrote: > > > That's what the lane is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > because they want to do it, and they see "everybody else" doing "it", > so why *shouldn't* they do what "everybody else" is doing? I see a big mass of vehicles zigzaging around each other, the big ones posing a greater threat on the little ones. In other words: It's a VERY SCARY PLACE TO BE IN. Whether the Autobahn is good or not, or Mercedes' drivers are a.sholes or not, American highways--and byways--remain a jungle. Lane discipline is the very simple step that can make our highways faster and safer. Enforcing speed limits while ignoring lane discipline is very stupid--but a profittable industry. ;) 'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out by showing a camera crew ride along in a 520 hp RUF Porsche Carerra Turbo that got up to 212 mph. The other vehicles, which were all going way faster than on an American Interstate, looked like they were standing still in comparison. Here are some facts I noted: The police strictly enforce rules designed to make people pay attention when they drive, the most important of which is lane discipline. No matter what speed you are going, you must keep right except to pass, no exceptions. Before and during your pass you are expected to watch for faster cars which may be approaching. You must pass with urgency, and at no time may you linger in the left lane, even for a second. There are absolutely no speed limits on more than half of the Autobahn (thousands of miles). Most traffic travels around 110 mph. Sometimes traffic flows at 130 or 140. Occasionally, faster cars come through. This is not dangerous because of the aforementioned lane discipline. The system works! The rate of fatalities on the German Autobahn is 0.74 per 100 million miles traveled, compared to 0.86 for the American Interstate system. Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.' http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef08fa1/4252 > Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer > to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.' speed limits aren't about safety. they're about revenue. otherwise the sop procedure for ALL federal standards would be followed (survey the stretch of road and post the limit at the 85% of what the drivers are running at). instead they under post the limits to make ticketing easier. with radar and lidar guns, traffic court time is easier and doesn't require an intelligent case to be presented by the city's attorney or for the officer to present a moderately complex testimony. Sit in traffic court and listen to the city lawyer talk to the city cop and they repeat the same questions over each time. It's rote and doesn't require conscious thought after a while. Taking someone to trial for failure to yield, obstructing the flow of traffic, or careless (inattentive) driving (cell phone, kids, makeup, reading, etc while driving) take more effort. They let the safety issues slide because it takes longer in court for each of those cases. An extra 10 minutes per case for safety issues means 3 fewer speeding cased pumped through the system for the cash flow. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org WANTED: Meaningful overnight relationship. > > Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer > > to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.' > > speed limits aren't about safety. they're about revenue. otherwise the > sop procedure for ALL federal standards would be followed (survey the > stretch of road and post the limit at the 85% of what the drivers are > running at). instead they under post the limits to make ticketing > easier. with radar and lidar guns, traffic court time is easier and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org > WANTED: Meaningful overnight relationship. You have explained quite well how the MACHINE works. Of course, you provide the oil for it to run smoothly. The same principle can be applied to the prison industrial complex or war machine or health industry. They are self-perpetuating machines and turn out big bucks. ;) >>>Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > industry. They are self-perpetuating machines and turn out big bucks. > ;) "You" in the general sense; not "me" specifically. I go to traffic court for entertainment purposes. The number of people who testify against themselves is amazing. Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for work! [admitting guilt with his statement] Judge: [Bangs gavel] $200 please! SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org So you don't know how fast you were going. I guess that means I can write anything I want on the ticket, huh? >Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for >work! [admitting guilt with his statement] >Judge: [Bangs gavel] $200 please! Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you're charged with doing 80, you can't be found guilty of that charge by admitting to doing 70. You might be able to plea bargain before (or even, in some cases, during) the hearing, but you can't be conviced of a charge until you've been found guilty *of that charged offence*. Doing 70 is not the same as doing 80. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you've been found guilty *of that charged offence*. > Doing 70 is not the same as doing 80. the issue before the judge was "were you speeding". 61 in a 60 is speeding. [bangs gavel] the only difference is how big the fine will be. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Ever stop to think, and forget to start again? >the issue before the judge was "were you speeding". 61 in a 60 is >speeding. [bangs gavel] the only difference is how big the fine will be. Fiction >>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >the issue before the judge was "were you speeding". 61 in a 60 is >speeding. [bangs gavel] the only difference is how big the fine will be. That's not how I read, "Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead?" That does not translate into, "were you speeding". I would suggest that you gain a small understanding of how our legal system works. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I would suggest that you gain a small understanding of how our legal >system works. The law he violated was "speeding." The amount doesn't matter, except as evidence of the officer's veracity, judgment, and the severity. The officer could just say, "at least 1 mph over" and nothing would change. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >officer could just say, "at least 1 mph over" and nothing would >change. I was responding to a hypothetical situation, and I properly quoted it. Here is is again, since you didn't seem to have read it the first time: "Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead?" Now, read that. Then read what I wrote again. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" snip ... learn how to post or get off Usenet. >The law he violated was "speeding." The amount doesn't matter, except >as evidence of the officer's veracity, judgment, and the severity. The >officer could just say, "at least 1 mph over" and nothing would >change. Sorry but you are being an idiot again. Any idiot cop that would say this at my trial would be going home the loser you both are. "Your honor it is obvious the officer was not paying attention enough to come up with a valid estimate of my speed, and as such I move to have all charges dismissed, and the officer taken out back and beaten." >>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I would suggest that you gain a small understanding of how our legal > system works. tickets may be written up differently in different jurisdictions. many are shows with the violation "speeding" and a comment area for the officer to add detail. on those, the issue before the judge was "were you speeding". SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." --Bertrand de Jouvenel >>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >officer to add detail. on those, the issue before the judge was "were >you speeding". I've never seen a ticket hat helkd a complaint of "speeding". They always referrence the statute violated, and a count, which must describe how the statute was violated. Thus, "speeding" is not a valid complaint on a ticket. As well, you don't appear to have read what I responded to. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >As well, you don't appear to have read what I responded to. I dug out an old ticket I got a few years ago, and sure enough, it says "22349 V.C. Speeding". There are no other comments. In California, "speeding" is covered under the Basic Speed Law, section 22350, and several other sections as well: "22348. (a) Notwithstanding subdivision (b) of Section 22351, ( )1 a person shall not drive a vehicle upon a highway with a speed limit established pursuant to Section 22349 or 22356 at a speed greater than that speed limit. 22349. (a) Except as provided in Section 22356, no person may drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than 65 miles per hour. (b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person may drive a vehicle upon a two-lane, undivided highway at a speed greater than 55 miles per hour unless that highway, or portion thereof, has been posted for a higher speed by the Department of Transportation or appropriate local agency upon the basis of an engineering and traffic survey. 22350. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property. 22351. (a) The speed of any vehicle upon a highway not in excess of the limits specified in Section 22352 or established as authorized in this code is lawful unless clearly proved to be in violation of the basic speed law. (b) The speed of any vehicle upon a highway in excess of the prima facie speed limits in Section 22352 or established as authorized in this code is prima facie unlawful unless the defendant establishes by competent evidence that the speed in excess of said limits did not constitute a violation of the basic speed law at the time, place and under the conditions then existing. " It's an old wives tale that if the cop made minor errors on the citation, you could get it thrown out. Judges now look at the infraction and if they're convinced you did it, (hell, just if they believe the cop,) there can be tons of errors on the cite. I've seen it happen in court. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>>>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> >>As well, you don't appear to have read what I responded to. Here's what I responded to: "Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead?" R4ad it for yourself. >I dug out an old ticket I got a few years ago, and sure enough, it >says "22349 V.C. Speeding". There are no other comments. I've never seen such a citation. The relevant law may well be as quoted, but I've never seen such a citation. >In California, "speeding" is covered under the Basic Speed Law, >section 22350, and several other sections as well: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >believe the cop,) there can be tons of errors on the cite. I've seen >it happen in court. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>>>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > The relevant law may well be as quoted, but I've never seen such a > citation. What we've been trying to tell you is, just because YOU'VE not seen it doesn't make it untrue. Geeze. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Of the four wars in my lifetime none came about because the U.S. was too strong." - Ronald Reagan >> I've never seen such a citation. >> The relevant law may well be as quoted, but I've never seen such a >> citation. > >What we've been trying to tell you is, just because YOU'VE not seen it >doesn't make it untrue. Many years ago, when I lived in CA, I got two speeding tickets from the CHP while on my Wing. Both listed the speed, because the speed would determine the fine. They changed this? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>> I've never seen such a citation. >>> The relevant law may well be as quoted, but I've never seen such a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Both listed the speed, because the speed would determine the fine. >They changed this? The estimated speed is listed as well as the location, direction, date, time, etc, but the offense was "speeding," not "doing 65 in a 55." SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>>I've never seen such a citation. >>>The relevant law may well be as quoted, but I've never seen such a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Both listed the speed, because the speed would determine the fine. > They changed this? Not in all places. Many times the case in court becomes an admission of guilt with just the amount of fine in question. (I wasn't going 80. I was going 78.) That was my point about the judge determining guilt (speeding) by admissions and confessions and adjusting the fine according to the shade of gray that day. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org CM Rule #1 = Violate IBA Rule #5 >>>>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > believe the cop,) there can be tons of errors on the cite. I've seen > it happen in court. don't confuse him with reality. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org CM Rule #1 = Violate IBA Rule #5 >>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I would suggest that you gain a small understanding of how our legal > system works. It doesn't really work the way you think it does in traffic court. Usual legal rules and procedures don't apply. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>> Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>> Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > nate Excellent and observable point. On more than one occasion I have pointed out that and still lost. I learned not to testify because it leaves me open for cross examination ("well, you're honor, it happened this way..."). Instead I question the cop and establish some background that may or may not be disputed. I have watched it happen repeatedly to others too. Traffic court isn't real court anyway. You typically have an appointed judge that used to be a prosecuting attorney, who is far from impartial. If the prosecution fails to make a case then the judge sits up and starts asking the questions for him/her as if the judge were the prosecution. One time I actually had the prosecution agree to drop the charges before the case came up. When we were all called forward, the prosecution announced that the city was choosing not to move forward and requested a dismissal for (xyz). The judge set up and spent 15 minutes quizzing me as if he was the prosecution instead of being the impartial ruling body that, not having a case before him any more (due to both pros and def being in agreement for dismissal), had no choice but to drop that gavel and dismiss. I have had invalid tickets (incorrect vehicle description, improper first name, location where ticket took place) that were still upheld for no other reason than the DL number was right and they wanted the cash; even after moving to dismiss on the grounds that none of the pertinent info was valid (which even the cop admitted to). So take your law degree and your corn holing LEO bedmates and shove 'em up your a.s. You're all so incestuous and corrupt that Jury Nullification is the only thing standing between your "system" and a revolution. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org WANTED: Meaningful overnight relationship. >>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >nate Actually, I'm right. If you'd actually attend traffic court, you'd see that. The citation lists a specific count of an infraction. The LEO must convince the hearing officer (usually a judge) that the count is accurate. Saying, "Seventy, eighty, it's close enough" won't get it. Certainly, "speeding" won't even begin to cut it. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>>>>Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >>>>>>Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Saying, "Seventy, eighty, it's close enough" won't get it. > Certainly, "speeding" won't even begin to cut it. I have been to traffic court locally, twice. both times I got to sit through several hours of various traffic cases and about the only way anyone got off was if the officer didn't show - and even then you still had to come back for a second appearance. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Where I live in Calfornia I estimate that a full THIRD of motorists on the road are illegal aliens who 1. never took a driving lesson in their lives; 2. don't speak or read English (apart from "I need welfare and food stamps for my kids" -- they're entitled to both for any children they may have, and they typically have four or more); 3. frequently drive under the influence of booze/drugs; 4. WILL flee if in an accident -- even one in which another person is injured or dies. This scenario, in fact, is now quite common all over the USA. So you decide if "American roads are a jungle" or not. "So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) [Can you say "Neoconservative"? - WakeUp] the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.... "Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government . . . Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests. [Can you say FOX News? - WakeUp] "The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. " . . . nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest." -- President George Washington Farewell Address September 26, 1796 <WakeUp2005@adelphia.net> wrote in message Ah, another racist inbred, mouth breathing, belching felcher...go suck on mengele's a.s in hell scum bag. > Where I live in Calfornia I estimate that a full THIRD of motorists > on the road are illegal aliens who 1. never took a driving lesson in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So you decide if "American roads are a jungle" or not. They are, and not only the roads. But you must be aware how much camouflage there's in it, and that the real problem may be the big fish... The Effect of Immigration The large scale employer looking at greater profitability or the way to cut costs has several options open, the easiest and laziest being to cut wages. If the workers are well-organised they can resist this so there are two options open to the major capitalist. Either take the factories to where the cheap labour is or take the cheap labour to where the factories are. The first option entails great pollution, as a rule -- not that they ever care about that -- and in some cases they have to go into areas of political instability. It is cheaper to move the cheap labour. Having thus encouraged immigration, wearing the financial hat as it were, the capitalist in the capacity of a right-wing politician, dons the political hat and denounces immigration. This has the advantage of setting worker against worker, fuelled by religious and/or racial antipathies which can persist for generations, and have the added bonus of inducing the worker to support the right wing electorally. It does the capitalist no harm to have a work force hated by those who surround them, or in fear of deportation if they step out of line. Nor does it harm the capitalist, in a political context, to have issues such as immigration replace the basic issue of the wage and monetary system. http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/meltzer/sp001500.html *** There's no excuse however for giving them an easy "license to kill" or to have lax enforcement of the law. Everything is part of this problem we call "the jungle"... snip of a whole bunch of ignorance... Let me see, you bitch about circumstances created by a democrat president who allowed the illegal immigrant population to balloon to more then 10 times what it was when he took office, and then proceed to misquote a president and suggest that he was talking about conservatives and Fox News. Exactly what drugs are you taking? >and then proceed >to misquote a president and suggest that he was talking about >conservatives and Fox News. Listen, schmuck, get your head out of your a.s, willya? Yup -- GW was referring in his timeless Farewell Address to precisely the kinds of traitors who own and run FOX "News". Are you such a clueless putz you think he meant his words only to be understood in reference to his own time?LOL "So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) [Can you say "Neoconservative"? - WakeUp] the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.... "Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government . . . Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests. [Can you say FOX News? - WakeUp] "The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. " . . . nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest." -- President George Washington Farewell Address September 26, 1796 > >Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? > >Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for > >work! [admitting guilt with his statement] > >Judge: [Bangs gavel] $200 please! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you've been found guilty *of that charged offence*. > Doing 70 is not the same as doing 80. My case is different but it goes to show how the GRINDING MACHINE works: The parking officer gave me a parking ticket (with no good reason other some stupid sign in fron of my house) and had lifted the car to tow it. I complained about being excessive punishment, etc, and she agreed to dismiss the ticket if I paid the truck 40 bucks on the spot. 20 days later I get a notifice with late fees added. I complain to the Parking Authority that I never saw the ticket but they tell me to go to court. I see the lady officer twice in the meantime and she assures me that she would acknowledge what happened in court. At court day she tells me in my face that she never offered to dismiss the ticket, and the judge tells me to pay everything with late fees and all. What a shock! I've been preyed upon. Then some good samaritan who saw me in rage told me to appeal. Wow, what a good idea! Wait, it's twice as much to appeal! Forget it. I go to the head of the Parking Authority and they dismiss the whole thing. Lucky me! >> >Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? >> >Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >works: The parking officer gave me a parking ticket (with no good >reason other some stupid sign in fron of my house) Did the stupid sign say "No Parking" or some variation thereof? >and had lifted the >car to tow it. I complained about being excessive punishment, etc, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >twice as much to appeal! Forget it. I go to the head of the Parking >Authority and they dismiss the whole thing. Lucky me! SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> >Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? > >> >Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Did the stupid sign say "No Parking" or some variation thereof? > >and had lifted the It did. What I'm saying that it was UNNECESSARY (no real need for it), IT CARRIED UNUSUAL PENALTY (simultaneous ticketing and towing) and that THE LADY LIED. This is a building with limited parking whose fact they use to squeeze the people out of their last penny. 100 bucks for such a slight violation amounts to TERRORIZING THE PEOPLE FOR PROFIT. >> >> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:44:24 GMT, Bownse <bownse@swbell.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >the people out of their last penny. 100 bucks for such a slight >violation amounts to TERRORIZING THE PEOPLE FOR PROFIT. OHMYGOD! Did you seek counseling for the terror? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >This is a building with limited parking whose fact they use to squeeze > >the people out of their last penny. 100 bucks for such a slight > >violation amounts to TERRORIZING THE PEOPLE FOR PROFIT. > > OHMYGOD! > Did you seek counseling for the terror? No, I sought a loan. ;) I believe there's many kinds of terror on the people, some over politics, some over profit. When I wake up to the fact of my car being ticketed AND towed over an slight oversight, in front of my building, for no good reason other than profit, I feel an economic war is being waged on the poor. Certainly my neighbors and I feel terrorized by it. >> >This is a building with limited parking whose fact they use to >squeeze [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >for no good reason other than profit, I feel an economic war is being >waged on the poor. Certainly my neighbors and I feel terrorized by it. You volunteered. There was a sign, you ignored it, and got caught. You paid the price for your actions. This isn't terrorism, it's consequences for your actions. Of course, you're entitled to your opinions, but this one doesn't match reality. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >I believe there's many kinds of terror on the people, some over > >politics, some over profit. When I wake up to the fact of my car being [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Of course, you're entitled to your opinions, but this one doesn't > match reality. This ain't about fairness other placing than placing a sign to catch unsuspecting people. And the enforcing by the officer and tow truck man acting together no more than a raid. In my dictionary "anything that terrorizes is terrorism"... (so are the intimidating driving habits of some out there, particularly when using the overwhelming size of their vehicle). >> >I believe there's many kinds of terror on the people, some over >> >politics, some over profit. When I wake up to the fact of my car [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >unsuspecting people. And the enforcing by the officer and tow truck man >acting together no more than a raid. It's a SIGN! You can READ it. "Unsuspecting" people? What are you talking about? This was a NO PARKING sign. It's not a "parking trap", it's a marked no parking space. The cop and tow truck man acted as a "raid"? You mean by doing their jobs after someone *VOLUNTEERS* for it? >In my dictionary "anything that terrorizes is terrorism"... (so are the >intimidating driving habits of some out there, particularly when using >the overwhelming size of their vehicle). Which has what to do with a parking violation? "Your dictionary"? Is this one that we can buy at a book store, or is it just made-up defifntions to excuse your behaviour? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >In my dictionary "anything that terrorizes is terrorism"... (so are the > >intimidating driving habits of some out there, particularly when using [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Your dictionary"? Is this one that we can buy at a book store, or is > it just made-up defifntions to excuse your behaviour? My dictionary is to be made from the little people's perspective, not the lion's. So the definitions are quite different. But I'm not quite alone in the use of the broad definition of terrorism. For example... "parking fine= terrorism" http://www.eltnews.com/community/?board=legal;action=display;num=1109925918 Well, I'm willing to bring it one notch down and declare them PREDATORS instead of TERRORISTS. >> >In my dictionary "anything that terrorizes is terrorism"... (so are >the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >My dictionary is to be made from the little people's perspective, not >the lion's. So the definitions are quite different. Once you admit that your words don't mean what they mean, you've admitted that what you write is meaningless. >But I'm not quite alone in the use of the broad definition of >terrorism. For example... > >"parking fine= terrorism" > >http://www.eltnews.com/community/?board=legal;action=display;num=1109925918 Another person who doesn't mean what he writes. So? >Well, I'm willing to bring it one notch down and declare them PREDATORS >instead of TERRORISTS. And yet, you volunteered for the predation. What does that make you? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >My dictionary is to be made from the little people's perspective, not > >the lion's. So the definitions are quite different. > > Once you admit that your words don't mean what they mean, you've > admitted that what you write is meaningless. How so? There are many dictionaries in this world. For example, one man's "terrorist" may be another's "hero." That happens too with the word "freedom fighter," which is used to indicate the guy is on our side, no matter what he does. And all this confusion comes because WE ALL LIVE UNDER DOUBLE STANDARDS, hiding the fact we live under the Law of the Jungle. From the roads to international politics. When a poor man is fined over 100 bucks for no other reason that he was easy prey, we may assume he's been victim of that Law too. He could have been warned; he could have been given the ticket first and then be towed later. But when we witness the parking officer and tow truck man acting swiftly to get your car--even though I was screaming at them from the window--you witness the same predatory skills of the lion coming down fast on the gazelle. There's little room for the gazelles and other little animals of this world. "The world belongs to the mighty beasts," thought the dinosaurs before they disappeared... > >Well, I'm willing to bring it one notch down and declare them PREDATORS > >instead of TERRORISTS. > > And yet, you volunteered for the predation. What does that make you? Only as prey. I hardly call that predation. ;) > When a poor man is fined over 100 bucks for no other reason that he was ...too stupid to read the "no parking" sign and park elsewhere. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Suffering from the occasional blinding flash of mediocrity. > > When a poor man is fined over 100 bucks for no other reason that he was > > ...too stupid to read the "no parking" sign and park elsewhere. Excessive punishment. The laws are made for the lion to eat the little animals. Only law is Law of the Jungle. HOW THE LAW WORKS... FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LION One day the King of the Jungle, tired of being called a "Tyrant," gathered the most cunning animals in the kingdom, chief among them the Foxes... He said to them: "It's mighty unjust that I am not recognized for what I am. You know full well that the best of my SCRAPS, after you, go to the Little Animals... Well, I want you to write LAWS, so from now on it'll be them, and not me, who would rule over this God chosen kingdom..." After a few months of hard deliberations (and a few "private parties" and "business trips") the Foxes (now turned politicians) returned with a long, long book of laws written in a language so hard to understand to the Little Animals that they thought it was old Greek. After translation, it started like this: "The animals with a mane will be treated like kings; the animals with paws and teeth will be above the Laws; and the animals who will represent the interests of the Little Animals, us, will be granted a raise in benefits and status... Of course, ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION will be considered ILLEGAL, and will result in the Lion eating the Little Animal..." >>>When a poor man is fined over 100 bucks for no other reason that he > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > HOW THE LAW WORKS... FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LION [snip of whine fest] Boo f.cking hoo. No one held a gun to their head and made them park there. They chose to do what they did. It was clearly marked. Ain't no place I've ever lived that didn't reserve the right to tow and stow a vehicle for violating clearly marked NO PARKING zones. Grow and and grow a pair of balls ya f.cking baby. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Every a.s is different. Some are evil, some are famous, some are pierced by ceramic unicorns." - Katherine Becker > > Excessive punishment. The laws are made for the lion to eat the little > > animals. Only law is Law of the Jungle. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > there. They chose to do what they did. It was clearly marked. Ain't no > place I've ever lived that didn't reserve the right to tow and stow a > vehicle for violating clearly marked NO PARKING zones. > > Grow and and grow a pair of balls ya f.cking baby. The lion eats you because he's HUNGRY not because he's FAIR. It happens every day on the road. People get away with the WORST OFFENCES (lack of lane dicipline, talking on the phone) but you get eaten for going 10mph over the limit. Case in point... " I'd Rather Get Mugged Than Get A Traffic Ticket". "Insurance companies love to see us get tickets because they can raise our rates." Personal Letter From: Mel Leiding Anaheim, CA Dear Friends and Fellow Victims, The reason I got started in my campaign against unfair traffic tickets is because I have always felt like a victim whenever I have received a ticket no matter how well deserved. This feeling usually comes right after I get the notice that the extra 8 MPH over the limit will cost me $350.00. At that point I begin to feel like I've been robbed at the point of a radar gun by a masked (sunglasses) bandit in a black and white car or motorcycle who was hiding behind a huge garbage dumpster. They always say they are writing these tickets in the interests of my safety. This may have been true at some point in the past before tickets became big business. Now I believe most are written to raise revenue, not for safety. If they were really interested in safety they would not hide behind walls and bushes but would be stationed out in the open where they can be seen and thus be a true deterrent to unsafe driving. The problem is that if they did this they would not make any money. Hiding behind buildings and bushes doesn't cause anyone to drive slower or safer. It only causes bad relationships between the driving public and the police. You'll have to excuse me for being a little negative and cynical right now. Normally I can appreciate an officer's job but I just got two tickets within two weeks of each other. The last one really ticked me off because the cop had such a rude and condescending attitude. It reminded me of the worst ticket I ever got for speeding ( 59 MPH in a 50 MPH zone) early one Sunday morning on my way to the mountains. It was a wide four lane road by an industrial park with no one around except the cop hiding in the bushes. That ticket eventually got dismissed. I once wrote an article titled " I'd Rather Get Mugged Than Get A Traffic Ticket". Basically I said that getting mugged was faster, cheaper and has no long term repercussions such as increased insurance premiums or loss of my license. If I get mugged, the guy is only going to get $20.00 or $30.00 sometimes less and its over in about 30 seconds. If I get a ticket, it will cost $150.00 to $500.00 or more. If I didn't have car insurance that ticket for no insurance will be about $1,350.00. The mugger would love a score like that. Unfortunately the traffic ticket fine is just the beginning. If you don't fight each ticket you get points against your license which could lead to the loss of your driving privileges which could eventually lead to the loss of your job and your ability to support yourself or your family. The next thing you might face if you don't fight each ticket is an insurance rate increase or something worse like cancellation by the company you've been paying faithfully year after year after year. Insurance companies love to see us get tickets because they can raise our rates. Naturally they want the speed limits lower so we will get more tickets which means higher rates and more money for them. Did you know that insurance companies spend 26 million dollars a year checking peoples driving records? Believe me they are not checking to see if you have no tickets so they can give you a good driver discount. They are checking to see if you have any traffic tickets so they can increase your rates accordingly. One last thing - in a mugging the mugger might get arrested but never the muggee. Sit in on any traffic court and you will hear the judge issuing arrest warrants for things like failure to appear, contempt or whatever else is on the agenda that day. I swear to you, I was in traffic court this morning and someone failed to appear in court. The judge threw the file to the clerk and said "issue an arrest warrant with $10,000.00 bail". If not taken care of properly, traffic tickets can escalate into something much more serious than a fine and traffic school. http://www.beattraffictickets.com/ Remember my strategy: DO _NOT_ FEED THE LION! ;) >> Boo f.cking hoo. No one held a gun to their head and made them park >> there. They chose to do what they did. It was clearly marked. Ain't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >lane dicipline, talking on the phone) but you get eaten for going 10mph >over the limit. Case in point... You VOLUNTEERED for the victimization. Is this because you LIKE being a victim? Is that it? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >The lion eats you because he's HUNGRY not because he's FAIR. It happens > >every day on the road. People get away with the WORST OFFENCES (lack of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You VOLUNTEERED for the victimization. > Is this because you LIKE being a victim? Is that it? Yeah, I L-O-V-E being a victim. Now two more parking tickets pending, one today. The first one in front of my house, two feet BEHIND the stop line. They say so many feet within the stop sign is not allowed. No sign, nothing. I'll go and discuss it again, since there's only a few spaces available for so many cars. I won't waste my time in court though. Today, parked in a minor two lane street where buses turn left. I parked since there was no sign, but see the logic of it. Still I argue with the officer, "WHY NOT PUT A SIGN?" I fear another ambush by the lion though... :( >Yeah, I L-O-V-E being a victim. Now two more parking tickets pending, >one today. > >The first one in front of my house, two feet BEHIND the stop line. They >say so many feet within the stop sign is not allowed. No sign, nothing. Like it's even possible to put up a sign for EVERY SINGLE LAW on the books. You as a driver are responsible for knowing the law. Lack of a sign is no excuse. If you doubt me, go park next to a fire hydrant, then try to tell the cop not to ticket you because there is no sign. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >> The first one in front of my house, two feet BEHIND the stop line. They >> say so many feet within the stop sign is not allowed. No sign, nothing. > Like it's even possible to put up a sign for EVERY SINGLE LAW on the > books. For laws that aren't the same throughout the state, they can and must. > You as a driver are responsible for knowing the law. Lack of a sign is > no excuse. The existence of the MUTCD is an admission by the government that that principle is morally bankrupt. > If you doubt me, go park next to a fire hydrant, then try > to tell the cop not to ticket you because there is no sign. That law is the same statewide and so needs no sign. (Though I have installed a sign by the hydrant in front of my house anyway, because it's an unusually shaped hydrant & not obvious to some people.) >> >The lion eats you because he's HUNGRY not because he's FAIR. It >happens [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >was no sign, but see the logic of it. Still I argue with the officer, >"WHY NOT PUT A SIGN?" I fear another ambush by the lion though... :( Do you not understand that, as a driver, *YOU* are supposed to learn the rules? If you want to play tye game, you must learn the rules, or you will continuously be a victim, just like now. You'd think you'd learn after a while that you just don't know the rules. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > Do you not understand that, as a driver, *YOU* are supposed to learn > the rules? > If you want to play tye game, you must learn the rules, or you will > continuously be a victim, just like now. > You'd think you'd learn after a while that you just don't know the > rules. The combo ticket/towing incident happened at a "loading zone" where there was no loading whatsoever, and not even a building or house there, just green grass. I see that the rules, regulations and laws are meant for the lion to eat the little animal in a legal way. We got to keep him fat, right? 'Traffic ticket fines are the cash cow of the court system. No other class of "crime" is as profitable for state and local governments as is that of traffic tickets. Traffic courts cannot be fair and unbiased when their finanacial welfare depends on traffic fines.' But he's a master of deceit and camouflage... "Many speed limits are deliberately set well below the prevailing speed of safely-driven vehicles. Doing so does not slow traffic but it does make a greater number of motorists eligible for a speeding ticket they don't deserve." http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/secrets.html >> Do you not understand that, as a driver, *YOU* are supposed to learn >> the rules? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >there was no loading whatsoever, and not even a building or house >there, just green grass. It seems you forgot to mention the No Parking sign that you earlier said was there. >I see that the rules, regulations and laws are meant for the lion to >eat the little animal in a legal way. We got to keep him fat, right? No, they are meant to bring a little order to the world. It seems that *you* are one of those for whom the signs are mostly meant, since you can't make order even when it's spelled out for you. >'Traffic ticket fines are the cash cow of the court system. No other >class of "crime" is as profitable for state and local governments as is >that of traffic tickets. Traffic courts cannot be fair and unbiased >when their finanacial welfare depends on traffic fines.' That's a very nice quote. Now try to imagine how parking would go without parking rules. Remember, you can't park right *with* signs. >But he's a master of deceit and camouflage... > >"Many speed limits are deliberately set well below the prevailing speed >of safely-driven vehicles. Doing so does not slow traffic but it does >make a greater number of motorists eligible for a speeding ticket they >don't deserve." Yet, those who are ticketed are volunteering for the tickets. If you want to play the game, learn the rules. Simply saying the rules are wrong does not mean they won't bite you. This seems to be somethig you don't (or won't) learn. Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate you from your money. Why do you volunteer to be seperated from your money? >http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/secrets.html SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> Do you not understand that, as a driver, *YOU* are supposed to learn > >> the rules? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It seems you forgot to mention the No Parking sign that you earlier > said was there. You've never seen a sign that says, "NO PARKING, LOADING ZONE"? > >I see that the rules, regulations and laws are meant for the lion to > >eat the little animal in a legal way. We got to keep him fat, right? > > No, they are meant to bring a little order to the world. It seems that > *you* are one of those for whom the signs are mostly meant, since you > can't make order even when it's spelled out for you. Order into the jungle...funny. You can do whatever you want out there: zigzag at supersonic speeds at will; talk on the phone, holding people back; drive recklessly a monster SUV, intimidating others... You know, everything goes, like in the jungle. > >'Traffic ticket fines are the cash cow of the court system. No other > >class of "crime" is as profitable for state and local governments as is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Now try to imagine how parking would go without parking rules. > Remember, you can't park right *with* signs. I know, but it ain't preventive; it's just punitive--and very profittable. ;) > >But he's a master of deceit and camouflage... > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are wrong does not mean they won't bite you. > This seems to be somethig you don't (or won't) learn. The game... I'm learning to play the 'cat and mouse game,' and trying to figure out how to put the bell on the cat. > Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate you from > your money. > Why do you volunteer to be seperated from your money? It ain't because I want to feed the beast. I just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It happens to the gazelles all the time. ;) >> It seems you forgot to mention the No Parking sign that you earlier >> said was there. > >You've never seen a sign that says, "NO PARKING, LOADING ZONE"? Yes, I have. And I'm smart enough to not park there. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >> No, they are meant to bring a little order to the world. It seems >that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >back; drive recklessly a monster SUV, intimidating others... You know, >everything goes, like in the jungle. Me? Are you a seer, now? If you keep reaching that far, you're going to fall over. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >> That's a very nice quote. >> Now try to imagine how parking would go without parking rules. >> Remember, you can't park right *with* signs. > >I know, but it ain't preventive; it's just punitive--and very >profittable. ;) In *your* case, it's certainly doesn't prevent it. However, in *your* case, you're volunteering to be profotable to the city, so what's your beef? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> That's a very nice quote. > >> Now try to imagine how parking would go without parking rules. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > However, in *your* case, you're volunteering to be profotable to the > city, so what's your beef? Didn't quite volunteer. He's a good predator, and I'm not fast enough. Moreover he writes the laws, so he always is going to catch you. Even parking meters are of doubtful legality, but then again who's to challenge him? Why Parking Meters Should be Outlawed A Bit of History In the spring of 2001 the History Channel, in their "History Lost and Found" series, did a short piece on where the first parking meter ever invented is currently at. It mentioned, in passing, that the first parking ticket issued was challenged in court as illegal. The premise was that you cannot charge people to park their cars on a public space on a street. By definition pubic means that no one owns it and thus a city cannot charge a person for using something that everyone owns. The city defense team knew that they would lose the case if they argued using that defense. They, instead, defended and won by using the defense strategy that a parking meter and any resulting ticket was to pay for the enforcement of the parking! Think about that, you put money into a meter to provide a salary to the person to give you a ticket if you park too long in a public place - not the rental of a space! Thus, parking meters serve no valid reason other than to give money to the city to pay for a person to walk around giving tickets for people parking their car too long on a public street. Parking meters serve NO other useful purpose. Did I say I was kidding with "extorsion"? I take it back... Income Cities love meters - they are a "captive" income source. The city, unless you know someone or are a "public figure", the city will tow your car if you have too many tickets. A tow in Portland will cost a person at least $250.00 to get their car back. Thus they are using EXTORSION and FEAR to ensure you meter when you park and if you fail to do that if you do not pay a parking ticket they will tow your vehicle. This is the same things that individuals and gangs members are put in jail for demanding payment a city can do "legally" under the aegis of having the city government pass a rule stating that they can do it. Democracy in action. Note: Most people alive have NEVER had a chance to vote to install meters. How many governments have given their voters a chance to eliminate parking meters? What Can be Done? Any Government's 1st rule is to ensure that no other government takes over. Their 2nd rule is to never stop taking money from a powerless group. People paying meters are a powerless group since we pay as individuals. There is no organized union, no business association that can hire people full time to lobby and go before city governments and protest parking meters. It is all done by staff people, budget people, "social engineers" on staff (usually set by the mayor and by whom they hire onto their staff) and lots of other background people who will get the money from others for their pet projects funded by the General Fund. When it comes up for a vote the majority of the people in the government have a vested interest to get it passed since it will fund THEIR pet projects or social agendas. I have never heard of a town where citizens got a vote before a city government to remove parking meters. (snip) Measure $ The only way I can ever see, in Oregon at least, of getting rid of parking meters is if people ever sponsored a petition to outlaw parking meters in all of Oregon. This is one universal matter that would be supported by every common citizen and opposed by every city with parking meters in it. I would expect it to pass at the 85% level. The only other petition that I see as worthwhile is if a petition stated that all money earned from city parking meters (and garages) had to be directed back for road improvements and to build no cost parking structures ONLY. I am sure that too would pass at the 85% level. http://www.taphilo.com/tom/parkingmeters.shtml >> In *your* case, it's certainly doesn't prevent it. >> However, in *your* case, you're volunteering to be profotable to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >parking meters are of doubtful legality, but then again who's to >challenge him? You knew the sign was there, and you made a decision to park there anyway. That's volunteering >Why Parking Meters Should be Outlawed <SNIP drivel> SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > Why Parking Meters Should be Outlawed > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > defense strategy that a parking meter and any resulting ticket was to > pay for the enforcement of the parking! I guess toll roads owned by the state are illegal as well, then. > Note: Most people alive have NEVER had a chance to vote to install > meters. How many governments have given their voters a chance to > eliminate parking meters? Voters do get to elect their city officials, who set and oversee parking rates (among other things). If it's an important enough issue, get the voters to support an anti-parking-meter candidate. > The only way I can ever see, in Oregon at least, of getting rid of > parking meters is if people ever sponsored a petition to outlaw parking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I would expect it to pass at the 85% level. Do you have the right of referendum in OR? Start a petition drive. > > Note: Most people alive have NEVER had a chance to vote to install > > meters. How many governments have given their voters a chance to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > parking rates (among other things). If it's an important enough issue, > get the voters to support an anti-parking-meter candidate. It ain't about 'voters,' it's about 'big bucks.' And guess where the big bucks are, in keeping the meters and parking tickets or in dropping them? Actually, where you think the high salaries of our public officials come from? Is That a Politician in Your Pocket? Washington on $2 Million a Day By Micah L. Sifry and Nancy Watzman Every day corporations and other wealthy special interests pump another $2 million into the coffers of our elected officials in Washington and their party committees. For their money they get an estimated $160 billion a year in tax breaks, subsidies, and other sweet deals. That's $160 billion lifted from taxpayers' pockets-or about $1500 per taxpayer per year! http://www.publicampaign.org/politicianinyourpocket/index.htm > > The only way I can ever see, in Oregon at least, of getting rid of > > parking meters is if people ever sponsored a petition to outlaw [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Do you have the right of referendum in OR? Start a petition drive. Perhaps the lawyers are busy writing yet another profit-making law, but we can start a petition drive, right here, right now... http://www.petitiononline.com/top_petitions.html >> > Note: Most people alive have NEVER had a chance to vote to install >> > meters. How many governments have given their voters a chance to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >them? Actually, where you think the high salaries of our public >officials come from? From people like you, obviously. People who volunteer to pay fines. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > Didn't quite volunteer. He's a good predator, and I'm not fast enough. > Moreover he writes the laws, so he always is going to catch you. Even > parking meters are of doubtful legality, but then again who's to > challenge him? Fer the luv of crap, why is it so hard for you to figure out that your predicament is entirely your fault? You ignore and/or "forget" about the sign, tuff turds, brother. It's not the big bad gummint out to get you; it's we the people saying obey the rules we all have decided to live by to maintain some kind of peaceful coexistence. In most places I've seen with tow-away zones, you are topwed for illegal parking because you are impeding traffic. In other words, some streets use their parking lanes for peak-hour traffic movement. If you remain parked there in the morning rush hor, *you will be towed* and quite righteously, unless you think you have the right to stay put even though it ties up rush hour. > Why Parking Meters Should be Outlawed This is nonsense... > It mentioned, in passing, that the first > parking ticket issued was challenged in court as illegal. The premise > was that you cannot charge people to park their cars on a public space > on a street. By definition pubic means that no one owns it and thus a > city cannot charge a person for using something that everyone owns. This is false. I don't know where you get your screwed-up ideas, but "public property" does *not* mean that no one owns it. It means the "public" owns it and we administer its rules and regulations through our elected representatives. Following your faulty argument, you could park your car in the middle of the freeway and leave it there because it's public property, or leave it in the middle of the flower beds in a city park. No. You can't. A city can charge for use of public property; they do it every day when athletic leagues rent ballfields to reserve them in public parks, or your family rents a pavilion; when you buy a ticket for a ball game at a city-owned stadium; when you pay to park in a municipal off-street lot; and yes, when you have to put quarters in a meter. The principle behind metered parking is to create turnover in availability of a limited resource so that we might all have a chance to find parking in a high-demand parking area. Why do you think meters are placed in busy commercial districts but not on residential streets? If it were primarily about the revenue, you'd have a meter in front of everyone's house. If there were no parking meters in a downtown area, you would have a handful of early motorists parking all day in one spot and no turnover for the folks coming in at 10, noon, 2 or 4. > The > city defense team knew that they would lose the case if they argued [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > giving tickets for people parking their car too long on a public > street. Parking meters serve NO other useful purpose. Wrong. See above. Meters are used to provide turnover of a limited resource. > Income > Cities love meters - they are a "captive" income source. The city, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > EXTORSION and FEAR to ensure you meter when you park and if you fail to > do that if you do not pay a parking ticket they will tow your vehicle. No. They're enbforcing the law. Do you assume they're kidding when they issue the ticket? If you don't pay your ticket and you accummulate a certain number of them, then you *ought* to have your car towed and held until you pay. It's not a *suggestion* that you pay a fine. What makes you think you're so special that you can park illegally, not pay fines and then protest when we, the people, come and demand it? > This is the same things that individuals and gangs members are put in > jail for demanding payment a city can do "legally" under the aegis of > having the city government pass a rule stating that they can do it. No, it's a parking fine. > What Can be Done? One suggestion: Park legally, and when you don't, whether by ignorance, obstinance or forgetfullness, suck it up and pay the friggin' fine. > People paying meters are a powerless group since we pay as individuals. > There is no organized union, no business association that can hire [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > where citizens got a vote before a city government to remove parking > meters. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This above is truly some of the most paranoid ramblings I've ever read. People pay meters because in high-demand on-street parking areas, we the people have decided we need turnover in available spaces. We pay to measure out the time and to make sure we leave when the time is up so that someone else, thank you, can have the opportunity to come down and do their business. In many commercial areas, business associations *want* to get parking meters because they need them for their customers. This just happened here in Denver in the Cherry Creek North upscale shopping area. > > Didn't quite volunteer. He's a good predator, and I'm not fast > enough. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you; it's we the people saying obey the rules we all have decided to > live by to maintain some kind of peaceful coexistence. Peaceful coexistence? Why not try that principle in our wild highways? What about some simple rules of civilized behavior like NOT TALKING ON THE PHONE, or LANE DISCIPLINE, or USE OF SIGNAL LIGHTS? The coexistence doesn't look too peaceful to me. Actually it's more based on THE BIG FISH EATS THE LITTLE FISH than on any cooperative or civilized enterprise... :( > In most places I've seen with tow-away zones, you are topwed for > illegal parking because you are impeding traffic. In other words, some > streets use their parking lanes for peak-hour traffic movement. If you > remain parked there in the morning rush hor, *you will be towed* and > quite righteously, unless you think you have the right to stay put even > though it ties up rush hour. Not in this case. No traffic, no loading, no use, just a sign whose only purpose is to get your money. > The principle behind metered parking is to create turnover in > availability of a limited resource so that we might all have a chance > to find parking in a high-demand parking area. Why do you think meters > are placed in busy commercial districts but not on residential streets? > If it were primarily about the revenue, you'd have a meter in front of > everyone's house. You have them in residential in many areas like around the corner where I live. > > What Can be Done? > > One suggestion: Park legally, and when you don't, whether by ignorance, > obstinance or forgetfullness, suck it up and pay the friggin' fine. 100+ bucks is enough to bring disaster to a working family, who already pays high rent. I wonder on the other hand, how much the parking officials make. I'm sure they are pretty fat. > Not in this case. No traffic, no loading, no use, just a sign whose > only purpose is... prevent people from parking in that one location. when people choose to ignore it, then they are begging the city... > to get your money. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I know programmers who get stuck in the shower because there's no exit routine in "lather, rinse, repeat." - Steve Bream > > Not in this case. No traffic, no loading, no use, just a sign whose > > only purpose is... > > prevent people from parking in that one location. when people choose to > ignore it, then they are begging the city... That's good old fashioned PREDATION, whether here or in London. Actually they do it in London too... An insight into the pressures on Council Parking Attendants -In my many discussions with them, I have come to understand that Council Parking Attendants are caught in a sandwich between, on the one hand, revenue-driven pressure from the Council to issue tickets and, on the other hand, angry members of the public who believe parking enforcement should be fair and carried out in accordance with common sense. Many Parking Attendants I have spoken to actually agree wholeheartedly with the latter point of view but feel that they are powerless to do anything about it. -As I understand, the problem starts right at the top. The Council views parking enforcement as a good source of revenue (forget anything they tell you about keeping traffic flowing etc. - that may be a side effect of ruthless enforcement but it's certainly not the primary motivation). To collect this revenue, they contract their on-street parking services enforcement out to a private company (NCP in the case of Westminster, Apcoa in the case of Kensington and Chelsea). I have not (yet) seen the actual contracts involved but I would not be surprised to learn that there are financial rewards for the contractors based on the number of tickets issued etc. After all, the contractors are private companies in it for the money, while the Councils want to collect as much revenue as possible, so such an arrangement would be mutually beneficial. -This pressure to generate revenue filters down onto the street. In Kensington and Chelsea, supervisors push PAs to issue a minimum of 12 tickets in a shift. In Westminster the situation is far worse, with PAs pushed to issue 15-20 tickets per shift; there are also financial rewards for exceeding targets. Failure to meet a target results in a "discussion" with a supervisor and possible disciplinary action. -Parking attendants are not encouraged to use their discretion and are closely monitored to ensure they issue the maximum number of tickets possible. Besides having to make a note in their logbooks as to where they are every three minutes, supervisors (who themselves have probably been given operating targets to achieve) patrol the streets; if they see illegally parked vehicles that have not been issued with Penalty Charge Notices, this could result in disciplinary action against PAs who were in the area at the time. -Before their shifts, PAs are briefly by their supervisors on the top targets of the day (e.g. scaffolders' vehicles) and are also told which company vehicles they should and should not target. Bizarrely, for example, in Kensington and Chelsea, BT vans are prime targets, whereas NTL vans are not to be ticketed. I've heard this from at least three different K&C parking attendants. I'd be very interested to learn how such an arrangement comes about - I bet it's not anywhere in the Road Traffic Act 1991 but I bet it involves a lot of money!!! Interestingly, compliance officers in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea parking service claim to know nothing about this, blindly insisting "We deal with all parking contraventions in the same manner, regardless of vehicle operator." Well, perhaps they would like to, but they clearly don't. -It is not surprising then that these pressures result in PAs occasionally issuing illegal tickets, and in misleading uninformed members of the public about their rights in order to achieve their targets. http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wjk/parking.html >> > Not in this case. No traffic, no loading, no use, just a sign whose >> > only purpose is... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >That's good old fashioned PREDATION, whether here or in London. >Actually they do it in London too... That's not predation. It's people volunteering to pay fines. All you need to do to avoid the fines is not park there. You failed to do that, thus, you volunteered. In terms you like, you were the weakest member of the pack. And whinging won't help at all. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>Not in this case. No traffic, no loading, no use, just a sign whose >>>only purpose is... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's good old fashioned... stupidity with a healthy dose of victim mindset. for someone to choose to park in a no parking zone and then spends countless hours whining about it is worse than stupid. have you called jerry springer? SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I hate to advocate drugs or liquor, violence, insanity to anyone, but in my case it's worked." – Dr. Hunter S. Thompson > > That's good old fashioned... > > stupidity with a healthy dose of victim mindset. for someone to choose > to park in a no parking zone and then spends countless hours whining > about it is worse than stupid. have you called jerry springer? So is Jesus... So what? He chose to mess with Rome, and naturally was crucified. Why still be crying over it? We victims have our place under the sun, so the stupid sheep see the evil among us. Can't you still see it? >> > That's good old fashioned... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >We victims have our place under the sun, so the stupid sheep see the >evil among us. Can't you still see it? No, I honestly don't You act as though the big bad city government randomly chose you to be a martyr for some cause you can't quite define. I see a rather stupid person who got caught, and doesn't like it, so he manufactures a (vast rightwing?) conspiracy to explain it, when the truth is, he parked in a marked towaway zone, and got towed. What else is new? It happens to such people all the time, and they don't like it. But they continue to do it. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>That's good old fashioned... >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > We victims have our place under the sun, so the stupid sheep see the > evil among us. Can't you still see it? So now you're Jesus' equal? You've been talking with John Lennon in your dreams again. Haven't you? SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "As usual, no warranty, including fitness for a particular purpose or usefulness of information, express or implied. This product not tested on animals, college students are cheaper and nobody cares what you do to them, professional driver, closed course, optional equipment shown, serving suggestion, do not apply to broken skin, if condition persists, consult a physician, not for internal use only, tax, tag, license fee extra, prices slightly higher in ak, hi, and pr, void where prohibited, must be 18 to enter, must be present to win, don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where it's been, call your mother, she worries, do not taunt happy fun ball, do not look into laser with remaining eye, don't thank me, I'm here to help." - Steve Bream > > We victims have our place under the sun, so the stupid sheep see the > > evil among us. Can't you still see it? > > > So now you're Jesus' equal? You've been talking with John Lennon in your > dreams again. Haven't you? I'm just applying the moral of the story. The lion is eating the sheep, but they are quite indifferent, almost happy. What do we need? We need a victim, a shepherd so it becomes obvious they have a predator and do something about it. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one... Imagine Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one. >I'm just applying the moral of the story. The lion is eating the sheep, >but they are quite indifferent, almost happy. What do we need? We need >a victim, a shepherd so it becomes obvious they have a predator and do >something about it. You're really reaching there, Don... SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: > >I'm just applying the moral of the story. The lion is eating the sheep, > >but they are quite indifferent, almost happy. What do we need? We need > >a victim, a shepherd so it becomes obvious they have a predator and do > >something about it. > > You're really reaching there, Don... "It's high time the true cause of all this death and destruction was recognized and dealt with!" And you don't think the lion KNOWS about it but simply gives a sh.t? He turns a blind eye toward carnage but goes after minor but profitable violations because he's but a HUNGRY LION. Actually he may be promoting the sloth and mayhem because such things bring BIG BUCKS. Those INCOMPETENT DRIVERS should be off the road, but then they wouldn't be burning gas and buying insurance. Fast, smart drivers though are punished for being smart, and, again, because it's very profitable. This jungle aint' even about being fittest, but about being fatter. :( >> > We victims have our place under the sun, so the stupid sheep see >the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >something about it. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only >one... You're the sheep, and you seem quite happy to have been selected as prey. You certainly volunteered for the position. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > > > Didn't quite volunteer. He's a good predator, and I'm not fast > > enough. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > What about some simple rules of civilized behavior like NOT TALKING ON > THE PHONE, or LANE DISCIPLINE, or USE OF SIGNAL LIGHTS? Totally irrelevant, particularly when it is your admitted lawbreaking that is creating the lack of peaceful coexistence in the first place. Obey the signs, live peacefully. It's easy. > The coexistence doesn't look too peaceful to me. Actually it's more > based on THE BIG FISH EATS THE LITTLE FISH than on any cooperative or > civilized enterprise... :( No, it doesn't look peaceful to you becaue you somehow got hold of the idea that *you* are privileged and don't need to obey the traffic laws. It tales a lot of gall to park purposely in front of a "no parking, tow away zone" sign, then complain like some victim when your ticketed and towed. The problem is of your creation. No big fish, little fish; just an example of some schnook who thinks the rules don't apply to him. > > In most places I've seen with tow-away zones, you are towed for > > illegal parking because you are impeding traffic. In other words, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Not in this case. No traffic, no loading, no use, just a sign whose > only purpose is to get your money. Nope. You're contradicting yourself. You already said it was "No parking, loading zone" and apparently it's a tow away zone too. The only purpose is to keep that space available, when posted, for loading purposes, likely for some commercial enterprises nearby. If clueless clucks would simply obey the law that we all authorized, then there'd be no revenue at all. So you're wrong again. How could it be only about revenue if there is no revenue but for your own lawless behavior? > > The principle behind metered parking is to create turnover in > > availability of a limited resource so that we might all have a chance [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You have them in residential in many areas like around the corner where > I live. Doubtful. Where is this of which you speak? > > > What Can be Done? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pays high rent. I wonder on the other hand, how much the parking > officials make. I'm sure they are pretty fat. Not really. They don't actually get a cut of the take. And if you can't afford the fine, don't do the crime. It's really that easy. You're self-selecting yourself for this punishment, you know. >> Yet, those who are ticketed are volunteering for the tickets. >> If you want to play the game, learn the rules. Simply saying the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The game... I'm learning to play the 'cat and mouse game,' and trying >to figure out how to put the bell on the cat. It's not a cat and mouse game. It's a test of intelligence. If you volunteer to give money away, it proves you're failing. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> Yet, those who are ticketed are volunteering for the tickets. > >> If you want to play the game, learn the rules. Simply saying the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It's not a cat and mouse game. It's a test of intelligence. > If you volunteer to give money away, it proves you're failing. The cat catches the mouse, not because he's smarter, but because he's bigger. Just in case anyone here doesn't know the source of this sticker... Cheap Patriotism: $1 Yep, the latest fad in patriotism is a bumper sticker for your gas-guzzling SUV. It says: "Support Our Troops." Nothing unusual about that in a land where hypocrisy is official policy, but there's a detail in the making of the sticker: "Made in China"... >> >> Yet, those who are ticketed are volunteering for the tickets. >> >> If you want to play the game, learn the rules. Simply saying the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >The cat catches the mouse, not because he's smarter, but because he's >bigger. The cat and mouse are not thinking beings. it is assumed that you are a thinking being. Yet, yu can't seem to understand that if you volunteer for an action, you might get it. It has nothing to do with predators and prey, unless you *volunteer* to be prey. Which you did. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >> Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate you from >> your money. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >wrong place at the wrong time. It happens to the gazelles all the time. >;) Well, I would hope that you're smarter than a gazelle. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate you from > >> your money. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Well, I would hope that you're smarter than a gazelle. The lion says, "meat!" and gets you one way or another. He even uses low blows, deceat, camouflage, intimidation, extorsion...just kidding. ;) >> >> Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate you >from [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >low blows, deceat, camouflage, intimidation, extorsion...just kidding. >;) Since you insist on putting this on an animal level, let's look at it that way. The predators go after the easiest prey. The sick, the wounded, the young, any that in some way are easier. You have made yourself the easy prey. Some of us have figured out how to not be prey, but so far, you've not been able to understand that if you don't volunteer to be prey, the predator will look for easier pickings. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> >> Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate you > >from [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > been able to understand that if you don't volunteer to be prey, the > predator will look for easier pickings. Sure, but you forget that we humans sometimes commit "human error," which is then used by the predator to eat us. I didn't chose to park there. I forgot; it happens all the time to humans. There was NO intention on my part to break the law. Having come from out of town and having overslept, I woke up to the harsh reality of the jungle. And I emphasize "harsh" because the punishment was EXCESSIVE, implicating the tow truck for no good reason, other than the sign posted by the lion. I say this is an ACT OF PREDATION. Nothing to do with JUSTICE, just a HUNGRY LION out for easy prey. I happened to be the unlucky one. >>>>>>Let's say that you're right; the rules are there to seperate > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > do with JUSTICE, just a HUNGRY LION out for easy prey. I happened to be > the unlucky one. You parked there. It was a choice. That you forgot it was a posted no parking zone is a cop out because the sign was there to remind you. You just admitted that you're a dumb sh.t. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Relax, the handcuffs are tight because they're new. They'll stretch out after you wear them awhile. > You parked there. It was a choice. That you forgot it was a posted no > parking zone is a cop out because the sign was there to remind you. You > just admitted that you're a dumb sh.t. > -- Another thing is our no parking signs are too small and generic to see. It's like they try to catch you with fine print. STUPID SIGN http://schools.scusd.edu/sutter/images/No-Parking-Sign.gif SMART SIGNS http://www.reidsguides.com/t_au/t_au_road_signs.html >>You parked there. It was a choice. That you forgot it was a posted no > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Another thing is our no parking signs are too small and generic to see. > It's like they try to catch you with fine print. No. They catch the stupid who choose not to see and yet complain about their chosen blindness. > STUPID SIGN > http://schools.scusd.edu/sutter/images/No-Parking-Sign.gif > > SMART SIGNS > http://www.reidsguides.com/t_au/t_au_road_signs.html SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Dyslexics untie. >> You parked there. It was a choice. That you forgot it was a posted no > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >STUPID SIGN >http://schools.scusd.edu/sutter/images/No-Parking-Sign.gif "City of Sacramento" is fine print. If "NO PARKING" is too fine for you, see an optometrist. And don't drive until you do. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>You parked there. It was a choice. That you forgot it was a posted no > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > SMART SIGNS > http://www.reidsguides.com/t_au/t_au_road_signs.html Yup, you just admitted again what a stupid f.cking idiot you are. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > I see that the rules, regulations and laws are meant for the lion to > eat the little animal in a legal way. We got to keep him fat, right? So if you see it, and ignore what you see and still park in a no parking zone, that makes you a real dumb sh.t. Doesn't it? SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore looking like an idiot. - Steven Wright >> I see that the rules, regulations and laws are meant for the lion to >> eat the little animal in a legal way. We got to keep him fat, right? > >So if you see it, and ignore what you see and still park in a no parking >zone, that makes you a real dumb sh.t. Doesn't it? Absolutely. Mr. Quijote played right into the lion's hands - er, jaws. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: > >> I see that the rules, regulations and laws are meant for the lion to > >> eat the little animal in a legal way. We got to keep him fat, right? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Absolutely. Mr. Quijote played right into the lion's hands - er, jaws. Well, you know full well this is a HUNGRY LION, who chooses to prey on smart fast animals, not on stupid sloths. ;) >Scott en Aztlán wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Well, you know full well this is a HUNGRY LION, who chooses to prey on >smart fast animals, not on stupid sloths. ;) Absolutely wrong. Lions (like all predators) pick the easiest prey. The sick, the lame, the stupid. You're in that list, somewhere. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >Well, you know full well this is a HUNGRY LION, who chooses to prey on > >smart fast animals, not on stupid sloths. ;) > > Absolutely wrong. Lions (like all predators) pick the easiest prey. > The sick, the lame, the stupid. > You're in that list, somewhere. All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. Perhaps I'm the only one who to raise the alarm though. I say, "predator!!!" > > >Well, you know full well this is a HUNGRY LION, who chooses to prey > on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. Perhaps I'm > the only one who to raise the alarm though. I say, "predator!!!" The only alarm you're raising is that it's incredibly stupid to park next to a sign that says "No Parking, Tow Away Zone," and even sillier to complain about having to pay the penalty. This is no predator at all, just people enforcing righteous traffic laws. Pay your fine and stop parking where you're not allowed, is all it takes. >> >Well, you know full well this is a HUNGRY LION, who chooses to prey >on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. Perhaps I'm >the only one who to raise the alarm though. I say, "predator!!!" Of course, when you lower it to the animal level, there are predators. By accepting your role as the weakest prey animal, you volunteer to be picked as prey. Not all animals do as you do; many (probably most) manage not to be prey. What sets the prey apart from all the others? In this case, the fact that you volunteered. Thaks for pointing that out, but I already knew it. It appears that you, on the other hand, haven't figured it out yet. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. Perhaps I'm > >the only one who to raise the alarm though. I say, "predator!!!" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thaks for pointing that out, but I already knew it. It appears that > you, on the other hand, haven't figured it out yet. This ain't regular predator. This is AMBUSH PREDATOR. And I didn't quite volunteer, but if my playing the role of prey helps save the sheep, it's well worth it. So did Jesus. > This ain't regular predator. This is AMBUSH PREDATOR. And I didn't > quite volunteer, but if my playing the role of prey helps save the > sheep, it's well worth it. So did Jesus. How is it an ambush when you're given a sign that tells you what's gonna happen if you park there? To use your jungle theme, if a gazelle wants to take a nap in front of a few lions, I'm not going to have sympathy when they eat that dumb gazelle. And if it's a conspiracy to prey on the dumb who block traffic, and park ILLEGALLY (you were breaking, at the very least, a civic code) I'm glad it works this way. I've had a neighbor towed for blocking my car in at 4 am, I had somewhere to go at 4 am, he was parked illeaglly, and I had no idea who's car it was. Sure, he was pissed at me, but he broke the law and made me wait 30 minutes before I could leave my driveway that I paid for. Tough sh.t for him. Dave > > This ain't regular predator. This is AMBUSH PREDATOR. And I didn't > > quite volunteer, but if my playing the role of prey helps save the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > made me wait 30 minutes before I could leave my driveway that I paid > for. Tough sh.t for him. Nice pro-lion speech but it wasn't my case at all. My building has limited parking space and parking in front is the only solution. However they banned parking in the whole block just for the hell of if, or better, for the profit of it. > > > This ain't regular predator. This is AMBUSH PREDATOR. And I didn't > > > quite volunteer, but if my playing the role of prey helps save the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > However they banned parking in the whole block just for the hell of if, > or better, for the profit of it. What street is this, so that we might inquire as to the real reason? Parking in front isn't a solution at all if it's prohibited, and if you park there in spite of it, your ticket is your fault. >>>This ain't regular predator. This is AMBUSH PREDATOR. And I didn't >>>quite volunteer, but if my playing the role of prey helps save the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > However they banned parking in the whole block just for the hell of if, > or better, for the profit of it. Sounds like you need to either sell your car, or move. Racking up tickets is only going to perpetuate the problem. Moving to somewhere where parking is easier will also move your taxes to a more motorist-friendly community. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >My building has >limited parking space and parking in front is the only solution. WRONG. You can rent a parking space. You can sell your car. You can find a new place to live that has sufficient parking. I guess you just like being eaten by the lions. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: > >My building has > >limited parking space and parking in front is the only solution. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I guess you just like being eaten by the lions. "some Christians desired the crown of martyrdom so greatly that they openly proclaimed their faith." Nothing new. When you got a lion you do what you gotta do. How you think you are going to stop the sloth? Maybe they'll stop you. >Scott en Aztlán wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Nothing new. When you got a lion you do what you gotta do. You look at parking as being a part of your religious freedom??? >How you think you are going to stop the sloth? Maybe they'll stop you. I keep from getting parking tickets by not parking where I would get one by parking there. It works for me. I'm pretty sure it would work for you, too. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" So you're a self-centered lazy prick who can't walk any distance to your house since you're too cheap to pay for parking? You just needed that spot in front, and couldn't park a few blocks away? This is called painting yourself into a corner, and expecting someone else to clean up your mess. You f.cked up, quite obviously. You chose that somehow your laziness is more important than following laws that are put in place to make sure roads work as planned. You can keep bitching and whining all you want, but any reasonable person is going to be glad your dumb a.s had to pay some fines. Since you decide to ignore parking regulations to feed your laziness, I hope They tow your car every time you do so. Dave > So you're a self-centered lazy prick who can't walk any distance to > your house since you're too cheap to pay for parking? You just needed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Dave Last time they towed my car they got to keep it. The car was stolen and later recovered, badly vandalized. Worst, I was supposed to pay for towing and storage. So the lion got himself a car for free. At least the Christians were quickly dealt with by the lions. This lion bites you every day... > Nice pro-lion speech but it wasn't my case at all. My building has > limited parking space and parking in front is the only solution. > However they banned parking in the whole block just for the hell of if, > or better, for the profit of it. So it sounds like, while you'd like to have parking along the front as a solution, it's not for any thinking driver. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, cigar in one hand, favorite beverage in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming WOO HOO - What a Ride!" --- Anonymous >> >All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. Perhaps >I'm [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >quite volunteer, but if my playing the role of prey helps save the >sheep, it's well worth it. So did Jesus. But you did volunteer. You yourself said so, when you said there was a no parking sign there. How does your volunteering money to the government help me? By lowering my taxes. Thank you very much. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> >All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. Perhaps > >I'm [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > How does your volunteering money to the government help me? > By lowering my taxes. Thank you very much. * First they came for the righfully parked, and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Homosexuals, and I did not speak out because I was not a Homosexual. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me. - Pastor Niemoeller, victim of the Nazis *This paragraph was added to reflect the historical reality. http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/history_germany.htm > > But you did volunteer. You yourself said so, when you said there was > a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > *This paragraph was added to reflect the historical reality. Ooops. You were not "rightfully parked." You acknowledged knowingly parking in front of a "No Parking Tow Away Zone" sign. How you rationalize thinking of yourself as a victim or sheep is beyond me. You're a lawbreaker and you made it worse for traffic with your purposeful inconsideration. Pay your fine and learn a lesson about civility. k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: > > *This paragraph was added to reflect the historical reality. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > purposeful inconsideration. Pay your fine and learn a lesson about > civility. Wait a minute, I'm not the sheep, just the black sheep. HOW THE BLACK SHEEP WERE EXPELLED One day the Lion, who had been thinking how to best eat the sheep, decided to dress as a sheep... This way the sheep trusted the new "sheep" more and more every day, some confessing to him, others voting for him, and most allowing to be trimmed by him... Meanwhile, the Black Sheep--who was able to see through camouflage--thought this way: "If he got big paws and teeth, roars, and takes the lion's share, lion he is..." And that's the reason why from then on the Black Sheep weren't allowed to mingle anymore with the simple and common sheep... *** I'm sorry guys, I know you are loyal to the lion. ;) > k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: > > > *This paragraph was added to reflect the historical reality. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm sorry guys, I know you are loyal to the lion. ;) Not really; we believe in orderly traffic flow as a way to ensure adequate mobility, and when you choose to violate it, you are not a sheep being eaten by a lion. You are merely a scofflaw ignoramus who deserves to be fined for the betterment of us all. Just because your apartment house doesn't have enough parking and you won't rent a spot within a walking distance is not the fault of the drivers who are obstructed by your knowlingly illegal parking. > > k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: > > > > *This paragraph was added to reflect the historical reality. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > within a walking distance is not the fault of the drivers who are > obstructed by your knowlingly illegal parking. It's not that you are "loyal" to the lion, it's you have "blind faith" in him. So much so, that I keep repeating the circumstances and you are still blind it. To begin with, I didn't CHOOSE, I forgot. You know the difference. Second, I wasn't obstruction anything. This ain't even commercial area. Just working class residential area. And lastly, I denounce the HUNGRY NATURE of the lion, in charging so much for so little. Over 100 bucks, with no warning, nothing, is good old fashion predation, not different from the savannah. The Law of the Jungle at play. War on the poor little animals. THE JUNGLE. >>>k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > from the savannah. The Law of the Jungle at play. War on the poor > little animals. THE JUNGLE. You can't forget when the sign is right there... unless you can't read and you forgot someone told you what the sign said. You chose to ignore the sign. You're an idiot. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Hang up and drive!! > > > k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: > > > > > *This paragraph was added to reflect the historical reality. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > in him. So much so, that I keep repeating the circumstances and you are > still blind it. Repeating your silly claims does not make them any less wrong. > To begin with, I didn't CHOOSE, I forgot. Same thing. Plus, you are not credible on this point. If I understood, it is outside your home. To claim you "forgot" that your lawbreaking behavior was prohibited right outside simply isn't believable. you chose to take the chance and you lost. You inconvenienced thousands of motorists. Pay up. There is no "lion." It is all of us, collectively, saying "this is how we want our mobility system to work." You were a clog in the system that needed to be flushed until you understand you must adhere to accepted practice for the sake of all our ability to get around. You are the predator, thinking you alone don't have to adhere to traffic regulations and making it hazardous for the rest of us. > > To begin with, I didn't CHOOSE, I forgot. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You are the predator, thinking you alone don't have to adhere to > traffic regulations and making it hazardous for the rest of us. You smoked the stuff. Regrettably, you inhaled it. There's no thousands of motorists, not dozens, not one I bother. It's simply about keeping the LION FAT. Of course you deny it, but it's only natural that those at the top of the food chain don't see anything. They better not! You guys are a BUNCH OF PREDATORS. Probably the crowd running around with the flag (made in China) that goes "support our troops." But you give a damn about no one 'cause PREDATORS ONLY CARE ABOUT THEIR MIGHTY APPETITE, not soldiers, not democracy, not the fellow human being. No wonder you want to keep the JUNGLE going. > > > To begin with, I didn't CHOOSE, I forgot. > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > There's no thousands of motorists, not dozens, not one I bother. Sez you. I bet all the cars that had to maneuver around your knowingly illegally parked vehicle thought *you* were the predator. Tell us where this is and we can judge for ourselves. > It's > simply about keeping the LION FAT. Of course you deny it, but it's only > natural that those at the top of the food chain don't see anything. Wrong. It's about traffic flow. You have no right to ignore the needs of the rest of us and park wherever you want. It is good that you got a ticket and fine and your vehicle was towed. Perhaps you will learn to read and obey signs. k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: > > There's no thousands of motorists, not dozens, not one I bother. > > Sez you. I bet all the cars that had to maneuver around your knowingly > illegally parked vehicle thought *you* were the predator. Tell us where > this is and we can judge for ourselves. It's a road with no traffic, trust me. But I sent a copy of this debate to the Parking Authority so they can challenge me. I think they are too ARROGANT for that besides being WRONG. > > It's > > simply about keeping the LION FAT. Of course you deny it, but it's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ticket and fine and your vehicle was towed. Perhaps you will learn to > read and obey signs. Traffic flow? Try LANE DISCIPLINE wich the main obstacle to flow. I'd say they make a TRICKLE out of traffic flow. :( > k_fl...@lycos.com wrote: > > > There's no thousands of motorists, not dozens, not one I bother. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It's a road with no traffic, trust me. No. Tell us what road it is so that we can judge for ourselves. You merit no trust. > > > It's > > > simply about keeping the LION FAT. Of course you deny it, but it's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Traffic flow? Try LANE DISCIPLINE wich the main obstacle to flow. I'd > say they make a TRICKLE out of traffic flow. :( The fact that there are also some other thigns that disrupt traffic is no excuse for your knowlingly illegal acts of obstructive parking. The Wogster wrote: > > I didn't know it was that bad. And there's people that still deny the > > whole thing. You got no way to resettle Canada in any other place? > > We actually don't mind the location, if only Pennsylvania and Ohio > pollution could be kept in Pennsylvania and Ohio...... Which we can't. The wind blows it away. Maybe we have to work on limiting the pollution in the first place. And not only in those states but in all of them. We have to give people OPTIONS, even the option to pollute or not to pollute and still get around by bicycle or public transportation. I'm, for one, forced to drive, where I could easily be using my bicycles. The main street nearby where I live is off limits to bikes. You never see them there, if someone still doesn't believe me. So we all are chipping in to the poisoning of the Inuit children. Some because they drive a gas-guzzling SUV and just don't care; others because we got no options (but still can drive a small car); and the people who are in power, who can change everything, but got different "prioriotie$"... > > Oh here it goes off all the time. It's probably good for the > > Insurance/Lawyer/Medical/Towing/Rental Car/Police Industry. > > The insurance industry hates anything that costs it money, your > insurance company would love to ding you for 2 large a year, and not > have to pay out anything..... The cop would rather be sitting outside > Tim's scarfing down donuts then watching the EMS crew spoon some guy off > the pavement. The doctor would rather not need to treat all those > injuries directly caused by too much speed, not enough skills. Think > about it, a collsion between two velomobiles going 10MPH is a lot less > serious then two autos going 100km/h. The Towing guy, really would > rather be dealing with some chick with a flat tire, then trying to > pickup the pieces of a car collision. Rental cars, aren't always part > of it, they have to give the insurance companies such bug discounts, > that they would rather be renting a van to the bike rider who needs to > move a piece of furniture...... The insurance industry is an industry that passes accident costs on to the customers, and they always keep the SAME chunk. They would never lose. I pay around $100 a month just for basic coverage mandated by law (property damage, personal injury protection and liability). That's kind of too much for the poor, particularly when we got no other alternatives. HOW MUCH DO YOU PAY IN CANADA FOR SIMILAR COVERAGE? If it was hurting them THEY WOULD PREVENT ACCIDENTS before they happened. It's not that difficult: ZIGZAGING, for one, should qualify for enforcement. And then when the accident happened, they would try to keep medical bills down, which, by the way, are inflated. And so with the money that feeds other involved parties. I know that many of the people involved would rather be some other place, but so do the soldiers in Iraq and "contractors," but the war has a bottom line. The jungle is about big bucks. > The only ones who gain, the Lawyers, but they are ALWATS the ones who > gain..... They could change everything but why bother? The foxes are the most clever animals of the jungle. Some say they are behind the lion. > > And then you mandate they replace all the bumper stickers with "God > > Bless Me. For I give a damn." > > Naw how about this, change that bumpersticker to my other car is a > Cannondale..... Or "I care about the Inuits because I got a Cannondale" and then... "Sorry my Cannondale is home because it isn't safe out there" :( > Not really; we believe in orderly traffic flow as a way to ensure > adequate mobility, and when you choose to violate it, you are not a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > within a walking distance is not the fault of the drivers who are > obstructed by your knowlingly illegal parking. But it is the fault of the local officials who wrongly failed to allow room for the parking that everybody needs. I'm sorry for the drivers that get blocked (if any), but they should be blaming those same officials. > > Not really; we believe in orderly traffic flow as a way to ensure > > adequate mobility, and when you choose to violate it, you are not a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > drivers that get blocked (if any), but they should be blaming those > same officials. To them WE DO NOT EXIST, period. And now they tightened the nut to extend the hours. And it's not even a commercial area! There's no blocked drivers, just limited parking. They use this fact to make you fall and brake the law somehow. Good, old fashioned PREDATION. But there's hope...the World Revolution. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!! (great!) "The World Revolution is an idea for a new, global activist social movement for progressive social change. It aims to resolve in a definitive and comprehensive manner the major social problems of our world and our era. Major issue areas of the World Revolution include: peace, human rights, the environment, and world poverty." http://www.worldrevolution.org/ Our own revolution too subscribes to NONVIOLENCE, and embraces the same goals, but it's different from all others. 'BANANA REVOLUTION' I called it, since I believe that LOVE AND LAUGHTER are the best vehicles for change... http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote40 Tom Keats wrote: > In article <1112889830.035532.246000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, > "donquijote1954" <nolionnoproblem@hotmail.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > decent paved shoulder: 3 feet of asphalt. With that, I can ride > anywhere with complete confidence. I don't need 5 or 6 feet nor fancy > lines or markings. It doesn't have to be a separate project, just > include it the next time the road is worked on." Why not, I don't have a 'fixation' on bike lanes. I just want cyclists (as well as motorcyclists and small cars) to have a fair share of the road. So far the lion's share of the road is kept by SUVs, in a size war where the small got no place. To aggravate the problem, their reckless driving goes totally unchecked. They can zigzag around others, talk on the phone or watch a movie, and get away with it. Sorry, I don't feel compfortable with them a few inches away from me--even in car! And if you add to that the fact they feel "superior" to you and act as such, you get a very nasty situation a I call the "JUNGLE," which I, for the time being best avoid. If paved shoulders cuts it, so be it. If taking the lane altogether, all the time, so be it. If it takes a REVOLUTION, welcome! I ain't surprised at all that prey and predator think differently. Actually they always do. WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE. Massacre in Rio Getting Little Attention Fri Apr 8, 3:54 AM ET World - AP Latin America By MICHAEL ASTOR, Associated Press Writer NOVA IGUACU, Brazil - Violence is a part of life in this slum on the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro. Shootings are common and death squads of former and off-duty police officers, funded by local businessmen, are known to knock off undesirables. But even by the brutal standards of Nova Iguacu, last week's massacre of 30 people apparently by a band of rogue policemen was shocking, starting with the severed head thrown over the gate of a police station. (...) Just miles away, in Rio's wealthier suburbs, residents seemed largely unconcerned about the tragedy, reflecting the deep divide between the rich and poor. Few affluent residents ever set foot in the mostly black community of Baixada, where the murder rate is about 50 percent higher than the state average. Residents endure three-hour bus and train rides to work at low-paying jobs on Rio's upscale south side. (...) Among the victims was 19-year-old Jonas Lima da Silva, who had popped out to get some cigarettes and never came home. Standing over his grave, Silva's grief-stricken mother seemed to say that poverty was to blame. "If this was a middle-class kid, I wouldn't be here," wailed his mother, Rosa Maria da Silva. "If this were the governor's son, they would have already caught the killers." >> Not really; we believe in orderly traffic flow as a way to ensure >> adequate mobility, and when you choose to violate it, you are not a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > drivers that get blocked (if any), but they should be blaming those > same officials. Nope. The people to blame are the ones who chose to move into the area and now whine because the world doesn't revolve around their conveniences. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Never be afraid to try something new. Remember; amateurs built the Ark - Professionals built the Titanic." -Anonymous > >> Not really; we believe in orderly traffic flow as a way to ensure > >> adequate mobility, and when you choose to violate it, you are not a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Nope. The people to blame are the ones who chose to move into the area > and now whine because the world doesn't revolve around their conveniences. Well, yes, I moved into the jungle, and it was truly wild before, and cars used to get broken into all the time, and people being robbed at gunpoint, but being next to the lions you only had to walk a block to lion town, and enjoy the rosy life. It's just the average rat hole place near downtown, with all its prostitutes, crack dealers and other rats, left behind by the lions moving to the sprawl, but being reclaimed now, though I doubt they'll ever tame it again. The last blow by the lion of extending the parking meter hours was truly a low blow, since nobody would have learned the changes until it was too late. I was lucky a neighbor who got a ticket told me, so I guess she's stupid by your standards, and the lion a hero... That's life in the jungle, guys. You don't have to go to Iraq to enjoy it. ;) The rats have somewhat cleared the area, but now moved to the park around the corner. >>>>Not really; we believe in orderly traffic flow as a way to ensure >>>>adequate mobility, and when you choose to violate it, you are not [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > was too late. I was lucky a neighbor who got a ticket told me, so I > guess she's stupid by your standards, and the lion a hero... If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to read a NO PARKING sign, then yep. You two sound made for each other. You class envy is showing. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Yeah, we have a quota. Two more tickets and my wife gets a toaster oven. > If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to read > a NO PARKING sign, then yep. You two sound made for each other. > > You class envy is showing. C'mon, give me a break, you read the fine print in a parking meter where you park every day? Are you OBSESSIVE? >>If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > C'mon, give me a break, you read the fine print in a parking meter > where you park every day? Are you OBSESSIVE? What fine print? If you can't read what was on the sign, then you need glasses or shouldn't be driving. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > >>If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What fine print? If you can't read what was on the sign, then you need > glasses or shouldn't be driving. Never read the parking hours in a parking meter? They are small, real small. I need reading glasses. Have you tried it at night? Then you also need a flashlight. I fear the fine print is yet another hunting strategy by the hungry lion. >>>>If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I fear the fine print is yet another hunting strategy by the hungry > lion. Get the f.ck off the roads, you do NOT belong on them. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > I fear the fine print is yet another hunting strategy by the hungry > > lion. > > Get the f.ck off the roads, you do NOT belong on them. I know I don't, but I just try to survive there. The ROADS belong to the STUPID and INCOMPETENT. Particularly when driving a big piece of junk. Look at the LICENSE TO KILL people are liberally issued... (I love the part about MADD, which is the big cover-up for the real issues.) Florida Attacks Passing-Lane Killers by Paul R. Hollrah: Contributor to LHI Bills have now been introduced in both houses of the Florida legislature to finally do something about the most deadly killers on American highways - and I'm not referring to drunk drivers. Drunk drivers account for but a small fraction of the highway deaths that are caused by drivers who are simply too incompetent to be on the road. Yes, drunk drivers are a menace and they need to be taken off the road, but they're not the biggest killers on our highways. For example, if we were to select a hundred or a thousand drivers, at random, on any highway or city street in America, at any time of the day or night and give them a truly comprehensive driving test, the number of dangerously incompetent drivers in our sample would likely outnumber the alcohol-impaired drivers by a factor of ten, or more. The ladies of Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) have performed a valuable service in highlighting the danger caused by drunk drivers. However, if we were to follow the leaders of MADD, surreptitiously, as they drive to and from their offices and record every dangerous driving maneuver they perform, I dare say we'd find many of them to be far more dangerous than the drunk drivers they so assiduously pursue. What's worse, every driver who might drink to excess before getting behind the wheel will do so only on rare occasions, perhaps only once or twice in a lifetime, but the seriously incompetent drivers are a danger every time they get behind the wheel. more... http://www.lincolnheritage.org/articles/address/2004toNow/government/florida_att acks_passing_lane.html >>>I fear the fine print is yet another hunting strategy by the hungry >>>lion. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > http://www.lincolnheritage.org/articles/address/2004toNow/government/florida_att acks_passing_lane.html Drunks Against Madd Mothers...DAMM... http://www.lincolnheritage.org/articles/address/2004toNow/government/florida_att acks_passing_lane.html > Drunks Against Madd Mothers...DAMM... Nice people like us never drink and drive, but even if I did I'd never drive as bad as SLOW BUT DANGEROUS drivers. I think I can also have one arm tied up... I propose MASD (Mad About Stupid Drivers), and MADMV (Mad About DMVs) and so on. ;) > > >>If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I fear the fine print is yet another hunting strategy by the hungry > lion. Nearly all street parking I've seen in America has the hours posted on large signs at the beginning, end and sometimes the middle of *every* block. No need to look at the meters themselves, except for price. >>If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > C'mon, give me a break, you read the fine print in a parking meter > where you park every day? Are you OBSESSIVE? No. I'm literate. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Everywhere is within walking distance ... if you have the time." - Stephen Wright >> If, by "my definition", you mean someone who can't (or refuses) to >read [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >C'mon, give me a break, you read the fine print in a parking meter >where you park every day? Are you OBSESSIVE? You continue to say the rules aren't known, so the "predator" picks his prey. You arer wrong; the rules are there, you just don't want to be bothered to learn them. You say reading the rules is obsessive. Then you complain that you are the prey. And you attempt to lump all of us there with you as prey. Except those of us who know the rules, of course. We are the predators. Except we don't fine you, so we can't be the prey. What we are, are those who understand that people like you will continue to volunteer to be the prey. We don't need to run faster than the bear, just faster than you. And you make they very, very easy. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >> >C'mon, give me a break, you read the fine print in a parking meter > >where you park every day? Are you OBSESSIVE? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > We don't need to run faster than the bear, just faster than you. And > you make they very, very easy. The lion ain't alone. All those who recieve his scraps defend him and refuse to see what's goin on in the jungle. And it's many, many things going on in the jungle. I can't read an stupid fine print in a place I park every day. It would be equally stupid, unless you behave like in the jungle where you are on the lookout for camouflaged and treacherous predators. Maybe I should. >>> >C'mon, give me a break, you read the fine print in a parking meter >> >where you park every day? Are you OBSESSIVE? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >on the lookout for camouflaged and treacherous predators. Maybe I >should. You admit that you can't be bothered to learn the rules. Yet you continue to play the game. That you continue to lose is to be expected. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >> >> >All little animals are, and it ain't only traffic tickets. >Perhaps [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >* First they came for the righfully parked, >and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) I have a driveway. What has the rest got to do with this? It's a story about the Third Reich. You aren't seriously trying to equate your stupidity with the victims of the Third Reich, are you? You volunteered. >Then they came for the Jews, >and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/history_germany.htm SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >* First they came for the righfully parked, > >and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > equate your stupidity with the victims of the Third Reich, are you? > You volunteered. You didn't get in trouble with the Third Reich if you supported it. It's mostly when you oppose the lion or are indifferent to it that you get in trouble. That's where I stand. >> >* First they came for the righfully parked, >> >and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >It's mostly when you oppose the lion or are indifferent to it that you >get in trouble. That's where I stand. By golly, you really *are* trying to compare your ticket with being a victim of the Third Reich! SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> >* First they came for the righfully parked, > >> >and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > By golly, you really *are* trying to compare your ticket with being a > victim of the Third Reich! The guys who did the ticketing and towing are the same as the Nazis. The only difference this time is that they pick on the poor. They don't kill them if they can squeeze them though. They are not loyal to any ideology other than MONEY, and because of it we have WAR, FAMINE AND ENVIRONMENTAL DEVASTATION. You be the judge if they are any better. Nearby my house is lion territory (where the Rich and Famous live) and they are free of harassment. FREE PARKING ON THE STREET, even though they have parking garages. They could be Jew or Gentile, black or white, Hispanic or Chinese, but they all got money, BIG MONEY. It's the new elite at the top of the FOOD CHAIN that decides LIFE AND DEATH. WELCOME TO THE GLOBAL JUNGLE. Now, as we speak, I learn that the hours in the parking meters around the corner have been extended from 6pm to 2am and Sundays. The little animals of the jungle run out of living space... "That you are among the many losers instead of the few winners in the global economy. If you worked harder, became more ruthless and competitive, you too could join the ruling class (...) If they can be convinced that the law of the jungle is the right and proper law to govern human activity, they will fight among themselves instead of against the economic jungle's powerful predators." http://www.islandhosting.com/~contempo/library/mai/worldorder.html >>>>>* First they came for the righfully parked, >>>>>and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > ideology other than MONEY, and because of it we have WAR, FAMINE AND > ENVIRONMENTAL DEVASTATION. You be the judge if they are any better. So they killed you for ignoring the no parking sign? And, just like the old man in the Monty Python movie, "you're getting better." SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org I am Dyslexic of Borg. Resistors are fertile. Prepare to have your a.s laminated. >> >> >* First they came for the righfully parked, >> >> >and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >ideology other than MONEY, and because of it we have WAR, FAMINE AND >ENVIRONMENTAL DEVASTATION. You be the judge if they are any better. But the fact remains, you volunteered. That negates the above. >Nearby my house is lion territory (where the Rich and Famous live) and >they are free of harassment. FREE PARKING ON THE STREET, even though >they have parking garages. They could be Jew or Gentile, black or >white, Hispanic or Chinese, but they all got money, BIG MONEY. It's the >new elite at the top of the FOOD CHAIN that decides LIFE AND DEATH. >WELCOME TO THE GLOBAL JUNGLE. Is there something keeping you from becoming rich? Other than volunteering to be a victim? >Now, as we speak, I learn that the hours in the parking meters around >the corner have been extended from 6pm to 2am and Sundays. The little >animals of the jungle run out of living space... And yet, you learned. This is a clue for you to not violate the law, and park in the hours for which you can be fined and/or towed. Will you be smart enough to remember? We'll see. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > And yet, you learned. This is a clue for you to not violate the law, > and park in the hours for which you can be fined and/or towed. > Will you be smart enough to remember? > We'll see. So you think I should become rich and abandon my idea of THE REVOLUTION? It's just that it's so tempting... Philip Davidson wrote: > > Pope, Queen, venerable institutions to keep the masses busy. The real > > action is going on behind the curtains... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Popes Hollywood Queens Kings > Saints gods dictators. We better replace it with something. "Bread and Circus" is still by far the best crowd-getter (provided you don't throw human beings in the arena). They try to replace it with these boring shows (a funeral, even a Hollywood movie) but nothing would compare to the real thing. Well, even better because it can be a PARTY WITH JUICY FRUITS, AND HOT BRAZILIAN MULATAS. ;) We have some of that in... THE BANANA REVOLUTION I guess you can call us an "Epicurean Revolution"... "Pleasure and happiness here and now" Epicurus of Samos, the Greek "philosopher of the garden" who lived 341-270 BC, was an ancient sage who left us an enduring message of optimism. His teachings conveyed a fundamental conviction that individuals can live in serene happiness, fortified by the continual experience of easily obtainable pleasures. All we really need to satisfy ourselves, he informs us, are the sustenance of nutritious food, the comfort of a secure living environment, the comradery of good friends, and the assuring wisdom that the nature of the larger universe is benign. But although Epicurus' hedonistic ideal is easily achieved, it's not quite as readily believed. Many of us are disposed to believe that a pleasurable life necessarily entails the winning of riches, fame, and power, only to come away feeling anxious that we still don't have enough--the goal slides forever forward, like the proverbial carrot hanging on a string. Meanwhile, religions proclaim that a pleasurable life on earth is not even desirable, but that we must strive instead for a blissful afterlife, which may be earned after a lifetime of toil and strife. Here the carrot is so far deployed into the future, that one cannot live long enough to seize it--nor can we really tell that anyone else has ever succeeded in doing so. Epicurus, by contrast, challenges us to examine the nature of the universe scientifically, to analyze the root causes of grief and anxiety, and to put pleasure and happiness in their place--here and now. *** And, if you need any Biblical validation, there's this interpretation, "In the Middle Ages, the banana was thought to be the forbidden fruit of paradise by both Moslems and Christians." So the 'tree of knowledge,' which produced the 'forbidden fruit,' was more likely than not that of sexual knowledge, which gave us the 'original sin.' "The biblical text is known : yielding to temptation, the primordial couple tasted of the fruit of a prohibited tree, that of Knowledge... [and] humans become aware of their sexual condition. The price was heavy to pay : they lost their immortality. '6 the woman saw that it was good to eat, the fruit of this tree! how good it was to behold ! it seized one with the desire to act with sagacity!... she thus took a fruit and ate of it ; she also gave some to her husband close by and he ate... 7 So their eyes were opened and they became aware of their nudity : they bent leaves of the fig tree to be make loincloths...'" http://perso.wanadoo.fr/martine.morenon/modesty5.htm So we may argue that we are making Satan the Lion pay his due by giving him the banana. A carnivorous lion is no longer acceptable. No wonder the Bible pictures the lion in paradise as a peaceful vegetarian. http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote40 >> And yet, you learned. This is a clue for you to not violate the law, >> and park in the hours for which you can be fined and/or towed. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >So you think I should become rich and abandon my idea of THE >REVOLUTION? What revolution? What you propose is anarchy. >It's just that it's so tempting... Anarchy? Or learning to not be a volunteer victim? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >So you think I should become rich and abandon my idea of THE > >REVOLUTION? > > What revolution? > What you propose is anarchy. Not so. I propose OPTIONS. Some things are better without blood-sucking bureaucrats (the Parking Officers may disagree), but some things are better kept centralized. An example of this is THE ROADS. Our roads require a UNIFIED EFFORT to bring some order into it: LANE DISCIPLINE (with no speed on the passing lane, where safe), ENFORCEMENT OF INCOMPETENT DRIVERS, RECKLESS DRIVERS, SIGNAL LIGHTS, SPECIAL LICENSE FOR LARGE SUVs, and, of course, NO PHONES. Some of these steps could be deemed LIBERTARIAN (speed), or SOCIALIST (license for SUVs), or COMMUNIST (sharing the roads), but it may as well be considered COMMON SENSE. Well, perhaps we can keep the bureaucrats at the Parking Authority happy and bring them to put some ORDER to our JUNGLE ROADS. And these are the kinds of OPTIONS I talked about. ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY can bring some REAL CHOICES so the lions and the sheep are finally separated. But perhaps we can visit each other once in a while, right? ;) Roger Coppock wrote: > All solutions to global warming require organization, not anarchy. Or local solutions. The coop is a better enterprise than any corrupt UN organism... I say, ACT LOCALLY, THINK GLOBALLY. The Greening of the Kibbutz Environmentalists hope to restore the kibbutz movement to its former place on the leading edge of social innovation by Jan Martin Bang Imagine a string of villages, settled over the last twenty five years by young people from all over the world, inspired by the ideals of building a new society. A cooperative society, not using money, trusting each other, each village having unique characteristics, owning all things in common, bringing up their children in a new educational system, practicing democracy at a grass roots, village level. In short, building a new type of culture. Doesn't that sound inspiring? Can such a thing exist? Is this just a dream? A utopia, no place? (...) It is clear that many of the features of kibbutz society are not seen in an environmental focus. Sharing resources such as cars, washing, and eating makes for much less impact upon our natural ecology. Just the reduction in the amount of food packaging achieved by bulk buying is quite significant. Kibbutz certainly has not solved all the ecological problems of our society, but it is a long step forward from the consumer oriented nuclear family situation prevalent in most western societies. (...) On the way home on the early morning flight I reflected on what I had experienced over the last few days. I had been privileged to visit a group of communities who were looking to the future with an earnest wish to create a culture and a lifestyle that would be sustainable and kind to the natural ecology in which they found themselves. This desire to give something worthwhile to the future was so in keeping with traditional kibbutz ideology that here indeed lay the future of our movement. We were founded upon a desire to build something for future generations, and much of this has been dissipated in the fast paced modern life we find ourselves in, compounded of intrusive western dreams of consumerism and competition. The task of the Green Kibbutz Group became quite clear to me, to find this concern in every kibbutz in the country, and nurture it, helping it along to make the kibbutz movement once again a leading social experiment. Where modern consumerism and capitalism armed with the latest technology are creating a wasteland unfit for human habitation, we have a task to create a new society, one which will use the technology available to us, in a spirit of cooperation, to create communities which will be sustainable and live lightly on the land. http://www.ru.org/artkibb.html >> >So you think I should become rich and abandon my idea of THE >> >REVOLUTION? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Not so. I propose OPTIONS. You had options, and you chose the option of parking in a towaway zone. You still have options. That you don't like some of them doesn't alter the facts. The rest of your garbage is <SNIPPED> SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >Not so. I propose OPTIONS. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the facts. > The rest of your garbage is <SNIPPED> No, people got NO OPTIONS but to drive. And it better be a big, fat SUV to survive in our JUNGLE ROADS. Of course, those who can afford an Stupid Unnecessary Vehicle can also afford a driveway, so that puts them at the top of the food chain all around. Options means having PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION and BICYCLES. I got three beautiful bikes getting rust because it's not safe out there, no bike lanes and no order. To begin with we need some ORDER into our roads, since it ain't safe even for compacts cars. Then we need some appropriate space for the bicycles, whether a bike lane or not. In a non-jungle setting though you may say ALL VEHICLES ARE EQUAL, and thus there are two solutions: SEPARATE LANES FOR BIKES or BICYCLES TAKE THE LANE. Either one is fair, but riding in the gutter is not. If you take the lane though it amounts to converting the right lane into a wide bike lane, what's the diff? But then our fellow drivers will think they'll have so much less space for themselves. Until they realize that more riders means fewers drivers, and that they too can have OPTIONS, to drive or ride... So the COMMON GOOD works for the individual good. This theory won this man a Noble Economics Prize... John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) stated that "Adam Smith was wrong"! "The best result comes from doing the best for one's self and for the group"! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_dixit.html Of course, all this talk without THE REVOLUTION is only cheap talk, for the Darwinian Jungle is very profitable--for the predators... > Options means having PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION and BICYCLES. I got three > beautiful bikes getting rust because it's not safe out there, no bike > lanes and no order. Start working with your local planning agencies to have safe & effective bike paths become part of the transportation part of your city's general plan. It'd take as much time as posting online just whining and doing nothing constructive. San Diego, CA has implemented millions of dollars of funding to create bike paths on their own ROW next to freeways and major arterials, has well marked and separated bike paths on most roads, and has bike paths that shortcut through parks that have no through vehicular traffic. Again, don't blame others for things you won't do. > To begin with we need some ORDER into our roads, since it ain't safe > even for compacts cars. Then we need some appropriate space for the And maybe that's part of the reason for the parking restrictions you have such a problem with - overnight there's not enough traffic to require the extra space for bicyclists to share the road, so they create it by eliminating parking early in the morning. > bicycles, whether a bike lane or not. In a non-jungle setting though > you may say ALL VEHICLES ARE EQUAL, and thus there are two solutions: > SEPARATE LANES FOR BIKES or BICYCLES TAKE THE LANE. Either one is fair, The real fair option is that bicycles stay right, and avoid being in the way of passing traffic when possible. If a bicyclist does not have any other opportunity the drivers I see will yield while the bicyclist handles the obsticle. > COMMON GOOD works for the individual good. The common good does work, whe people will park appropriately and follow the rules of the road, not just the ones you make up as you go along. The reason I have been, as you put it, pro-lion, is that the lions act the way they do for the benefit of everyone, not just the people who live in an apartment that doesn't provide it's residents enough parking opportunities. The predators are people who refuse to abide by the rules of the road, creating an unsafe situation for other drivers and bicyclists. You've already proven you'd rather be a martyr than admit you made a mistake that cause an inconvenience for motorists, a traffic officer, and a tow truck driver. Think of how many fewer traffic officers would have to be hired next time you choose to park illegally. Dave > > Options means having PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION and BICYCLES. I got three > > beautiful bikes getting rust because it's not safe out there, no bike [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > well marked and separated bike paths on most roads, and has bike paths > that shortcut through parks that have no through vehicular traffic. Me propose bike lanes? The hardcore cyclists at bicycle groups want to HANG ME 'cause according to them they are NOT the solution, and I keep saying WE NEED BIKE LANES!!! Go figure! Here's the latest thread going on now... http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/browse_frm/thread/b5be1f9d 7002e566/2de53d1d25199d8b?q=author:donquijote1954&rnum=4#2de53d1d25199d8b > Again, don't blame others for things you won't do. Someone is responsible for the mess. They get paid big bucks to get roads flowing and parking available, but they do neither one. I only see a predator on the hunt. > > To begin with we need some ORDER into our roads, since it ain't safe > > even for compacts cars. Then we need some appropriate space for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > require the extra space for bicyclists to share the road, so they > create it by eliminating parking early in the morning. This is a no traffic street. Not cars, not bicycles. Just a few bums go by. Only rea$on they give tickets is... well, you know. ;) > > bicycles, whether a bike lane or not. In a non-jungle setting though > > you may say ALL VEHICLES ARE EQUAL, and thus there are two solutions: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > any other opportunity the drivers I see will yield while the bicyclist > handles the obsticle. Hard to believe a driver will be aware of an obstacle the bicycle may have (unless is something like a refrigerator) but then again chances are he will give a damn. > > COMMON GOOD works for the individual good. > > The common good does work, whe people will park appropriately and > follow the rules of the road, not just the ones you make up as you go > along. Not having DUI drivers is the COMMON GOOD, but so is enforcing LANE DISCIPLINE, SIGNAL LIGHT USAGE, and BANNING PHONE USAGE and so on. But the last ones are NOT enforced resulting in CARNAGE AND MAYHEM (not to mention INSURANCE RATES going up). > The reason I have been, as you put it, pro-lion, is that the lions act > the way they do for the benefit of everyone, not just the people who > live in an apartment that doesn't provide it's residents enough parking > opportunities. A good lion would practice PREVENTION, not hunting without mercy unsuspecting poor little animals. > The predators are people who refuse to abide by the rules of the road, > creating an unsafe situation for other drivers and bicyclists. You've > already proven you'd rather be a martyr than admit you made a mistake > that cause an inconvenience for motorists, a traffic officer, and a tow > truck driver. I only was the victim of a predator who chose to TICKET AND TOW ME for an offense that was NOT WARRANTED. "Parking in a loading zone" where's there's NO LOADING whatsover can only qualify for predation, particularly in a zone where the people can hardly afford the rent. > Think of how many fewer traffic officers would have to be hired next > time you choose to park illegally. Sure, they can keep an army of bloodsucking Parking Officers so long as they keep having stupid laws. Now they extended the meters to the wee hours so we can't even sleep in peace. Lions hunt at night too, don't they? ;) (brought from Pravda) My position is still the same. Why bog down in symptoms when the causes are left rampant. Rampant as a lion. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howdy Bader Very good point about war and productivity. One of the functions of war is to destroy the surplus that otherwise may result in the betterment of the people. These must be kept in need at all cost, so they can serve nice and good. But, in regard the symptoms, I may argue that they are what most bother people in every day life, and people can see the lion better this way. Forget about poverty in Congo, people want to know why they only got one choice to get around (the car), why they have to endure Darwinian roads ($$$), and who's behind it (the lion). I think we can best visualize the jungle this way: THE JUNGLE IS A TRAFFIC JAM WITH NO WHERE TO GO. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!! > (brought from Pravda) You consider Pravda a good source of info? Your ravings now have a much clearer context. You're not only stupid, you're imbecilic. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Your ridiculous little opinion has been noted. > > (brought from Pravda) > > You consider Pravda a good source of info? Your ravings now have a much > clearer context. You're not only stupid, you're imbecilic. I make my own news there, less fictitious than the American media. Two years and still going... http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=17067 >> >Not so. I propose OPTIONS. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Stupid Unnecessary Vehicle can also afford a driveway, so that puts >them at the top of the food chain all around. Hogwash, and you know it. You have options, you're just bitter that you made poor choices. Why aren't you able to afford a driveway? Well, it's pretty obvious, really: you're too stupid to learn the rules of parking (like READ THE NO PARKING SIGNS!), so you're more than obviously too stupid to get a job that will allow you to have a driveway. You want more options? Live close to work, sio you don't need to drive. Get a job where there's decent mass transit; people do thios all the time. You've got options, you just don't want to be bothered to use them. >Options means having PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION and BICYCLES. I got three >beautiful bikes getting rust because it's not safe out there, no bike >lanes and no order. See above. Complaints about your poor choices will garner few tears. >To begin with we need some ORDER into our roads, since it ain't safe >even for compacts cars. Then we need some appropriate space for the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >COMMON GOOD works for the individual good. Oh, boo hoo! Cry me a river! You poor little victim, you. Too stupid to do what millions do every day, that's you. >This theory won this man a Noble Economics Prize... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >the Darwinian Jungle is very profitable--for the predators... Yes it is, becasue so many volunteert o be prey. Over, and over, and over, and.... SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > Hogwash, and you know it. > You have options, you're just bitter that you made poor choices. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > all the time. > You've got options, you just don't want to be bothered to use them. I'm sorry to inform you that that's not the way it is in the jungle. Most people don't own driveways. That's higher up in the food chain, maybe middle class. However, since you probably live in the suburb (that big waste of space), it's surprising that you are a lost regarding the "options." We are prisoners of the car, particularly in the suburb. The MONOPOLISTIC LION wants it that way. "The truth is that most people are prisoners of their cars." "The automobile industry, however, was not content simply to reap the benefits of government-subsidized road construction. It was determined to wipe out railway competition by whatever means necessary." 'The old ways of traffic engineering - build it bigger, wider, faster - aren't going to disappear overnight. But one look at West Palm Beach suggests an evolution is under way. When the city of 82,000 went ahead with its plan to convert several wide thoroughfares into narrow two-way streets, traffic slowed so much that people felt it was safe to walk there. The increase in pedestrian traffic attracted new shops and apartment buildings. Property values along Clematis Street, one of the town's main drags, have more than doubled since it was reconfigured. "In West Palm, people were just fed up with the way things were, and sometimes, that's what it takes," says Lockwood, the town's former transportation manager. "What we really need is a complete paradigm shift in traffic engineering and city planning to break away from the conventional ideas that have got us in this mess. There's still this notion that we should build big roads everywhere because the car represents personal freedom. Well, that's bullshit. The truth is that most people are prisoners of their cars."' http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html?pg=1&topic=traf... *** (The following extract explains how this problem with public transportation came about. Source: book "Fast Food Nation," by Eric Schlosser.) The automobile offered drivers a feeling of independence and control. Daily travel was freed from the hassles of rail schedules, the needs of other passengers, and the location of trolley stops. More importantly, driving seemed to cost much less than using public transport --an illusion created by the fact that the price of a new car did not include the price of building new roads. Lobbyists from the oil, tire, and automobile industries, among others, had persuaded state and federal agencies to assume that fundamental expense. Had the big auto companies been required to pay for the roads --in the same way that trolley companies had to lay and maintain track-- the landscape of the American West would look quite different today. The automobile industry, however, was not content simply to reap the benefits of government-subsidized road construction. It was determined to wipe out railway competition by whatever means necessary. In the late 1920s, General Motors secretly began to purchase trolley systems throughout the United States, using a number of front corporations. Trolley systems in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Montgomery, Alabama, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and El Paso, Texas, in Baltimore, Chicago, New York City, and Los Angeles --more than one hundred trolley systems in all-- were purchased by GM and then completly dismantled, their tracks ripped up, their overhead wires torn down. The trolley companies were turned into bus lines, and the new buses were manufactured by GM. General Motors eventually persuaded other companies that benefited from road building to help pay for the costly takeover of America's trolleys. In 1947, GM and a number of its allies in the scheme were indicted on federal antitrust charges. Two years later, the workings of the conspiracy, and its underlying intentions, were exposed during a trial in Chicago. GM, Mack Truck, Firestone, and Standard Oil of California were all found guilty on one of the two counts by the federal jury. The investigative journalist Jonathan Kwitny later argued that the case was "a fine example of what can happen when important matters of public policy are abandoned by government to the self-interests of corporations." Judge William J. Campbell was not so outraged. As punishment, the ordered GM and the other companies to pay a fine of $5,000 each. The executives who had secretly plotted and carried out the destruction of America's light rail network were fined $1 each. And the postwar reign of the automobile proceeded without much further challenge. >>Hogwash, and you know it. >>You have options, you're just bitter that you made poor choices. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Most people don't own driveways. That's higher up in the food chain, > maybe middle class. Higher up the food chain? If you can afford a vehicle, then you're plenty high enough to make other choices. My Mom was a single parent with 2 boys and, even while working in a clerical position, was able to afford a basic house with a driveway. Once again your choice to be a victim blinds you to your options. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org IBA #288, CM #1, LPR #50, DOD #2021, EOB > > I'm sorry to inform you that that's not the way it is in the jungle. > > Most people don't own driveways. That's higher up in the food chain, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > afford a basic house with a driveway. Once again your choice to be a > victim blinds you to your options. And Bill Clinton's father was a drunk and he made to president. So anyone can make it to president, right? :( You can have a driveway only in the suburb, and sprawl is THE problem in America, causing even more need for a car. So you are not part of the solution but part of the problem. Again, the SOLUTION IS TO HAVE OPTIONS. The Wogster wrote: > > Well, bike roads are separate bike paths, aren't they? We got one not > > far, but the problem comes at intersections where you have to run for > > your life. > > Yes and no, the term bike path, tends to mean either a dirt path, or a > dirt path that has been paved over. A bike road would be engineered as > a road suitable for bike, trike and possible velomobile traffic, and > would like contain 2 lanes, a curb and raised pedestrian walkway, so > that you don't have pedestrians wandering into oncoming bike traffic. > As for intersections, there are several possible solutions, including > traffic lights, 4way stops, pedestrian crosswalks where you get off and > walk the bike, and over/under passes. Well, Wogster, that would be nice (particularly with the over/underpass), but to hope that the lion who's involved in his favourite extravagant projects (space exploration, war, etc) will ever give it any priority, is rather wishful thinking. Remember, only THE REVOLUTION can. ;) But BIKE LANES are really cheap compared to BIKE ROADS (and are better than bike paths) so there's the hope. :( (snip) > > Well, you can hope for the next budget and redouble your efforts to > > ticket people. More revenues will "eventually" lead to smarter > > alternatives, right? > > Ticket for what though, I think the only thing they ever ticket are > people who park in the wrong spot and speeders. My wife used to be an > actress (commercials mostly), and the rule for locating a casting agent > is to put it where there is no parking for 10 miles in any direction, > and call you for an audition 20 minutes before you have to be there, so > that you need to drive. Yeah one summer she got a lot of parking > tickets. As for speeders, usually it's because the speed limit was set > for political rather then engineering or safety reasons. This is why > you can get a 40km/h speed limit for a 4 lane road, with no schools > around, because there are a bunch of 15,000 sqft homes on it. Where as > two blocks over is all apartments and has two schools and a speed limit > of 60km/h..... Nobody cares if a couple of poor kids gets run over.... Ticket for profit. No other good reason. Actually most speeding tickets can also be considered for profit since speed in itself is not the only problem out there, not even the main problem. Lane discipline, for one, is a bigger problem, and it's not being enforced. The major enforcement out there is SIZE. Yeah, SIZE MATTERS, and SUVs command respect, not only over bicycles but over any other vehicle out there, save big trucks... > >>The problem with traffic planning, is that you need to look at the > >>overall picture, and not just how to put out the latest fire. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well a morning rush hour that starts at 5am and runs into the afternoon > rush hour with the whole thing ending at 11PM should be considered a > fire, should it not? Right, it's a simmering fire. > I saw, one time a film that was shot in Hamburg, Germany, probably > around 1970. The transit plan included heavy rail. light raid, buses > and even, for certain areas cars. If you were in a car area, you could > drive to the station, and park, for free, then take the bus or train > into the city centre. If you wanted to drive, and you were in a transit > area, there was NO parking, anywhere. > > When I worked downtown I always took the subway.... As you say, THE BEST OPTION...IS TO HAVE OPTIONS. But, of course, only with THE REVOLUTION. ;) HOW FREE ARE WE? "This is quite an appropriate post for me to read! Friday I was not feeling free at all. I spent much of the day driving to pay the car tabs on two vehicles so we don't get a ticket, stopping to check on the car insurence, driving up to pay the property taxes, going downtown to pay hubby's parking ticket so he doesn't wind up in jail, filing and paying our sales tax report, and checking on the income tax. My entire day, not to mention my bank account, seemed to have been hijacked by the government. And I'm still not done. I'm not feeling free at all, I'm feeling like I haven't done anything wrong, yet I have to jump thru a million hoops, ironically with the goal of keeping the government out of our lives." My goodness, are you feeding a HUNGRY LION, or is he eating you? :( THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always taking the LION'S SHARE, and seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all, demanded JUSTICE... The Lion, yawning and stretching, said, "You would have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the Monkey, who was very clever, devised a plan: He would go to the costume store, and look like a lion... When the HUNGRY LION saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for him, and fearing COMPETITION, killed him on the spot --before the indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time... Mike Latondresse wrote: > > BC is having it's share of probs with them, too: > > http://www.bccc.bc.ca/rumblestrips.html > > cheers, > > Tom > Interesting info. In Ontario they just had a machine that gouged a > 1" or so deep trench for about 2.5 feet of the 3 foot shoulder > starting at the white line leaving you with the option of either > riding the white line or riding the 6" or so of extreme outside > paving....the white line was the answer. Well, you know how the SCRAPS are distributed all the way down (similar to a pyramid upside down) until it gets to the bottom--if we are lucky. ;) HOW THE LAW WORKS... FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LION One day the King of the Jungle, tired of being called a "Tyrant," gathered the most cunning animals in the kingdom, chief among them the Foxes... He said to them: "It's mighty unjust that I am not recognized for what I am. You know full well that the best of my SCRAPS, after you, go to the Little Animals... Well, I want you to write LAWS, so from now on it'll be them, and not me, who would rule over this God chosen kingdom..." After a few months of hard deliberations (and a few "private parties" and "business trips") the Foxes (now turned politicians) returned with a long, long book of laws written in a language so hard to understand to the Little Animals that they thought it was old Greek. After translation, it started like this: "The animals with a mane will be treated like kings; the animals with paws and teeth will be above the Laws; and the animals who will represent the interests of the Little Animals, us, will be granted a raise in benefits and status... Of course, ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION will be considered ILLEGAL, and will result in the Lion eating the Little Animal..." If you don't start carrying on a discussion instead of quoting someone else's pablum, I'll have to consider you too trollish to bother with further. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have any film. > If you don't start carrying on a discussion instead of quoting someone > else's pablum, I'll have to consider you too trollish to bother with > further. The story is my own. The laws are made by the lion and foxes, and then, of course, fits their appetite. They ain't passing laws that are fair. A case in point is when the Congress recently rejected a minimum salary, but kept or raised their own, which is so many times that amount. The big fish eats the little fish. Minimum wage hike is overdue It seems that a majority of our congressmen feeding at the trough in Washington are so insulated by the rich and powerful, whom they serve, that they are indifferent to the needs of others. The legislators have no problem giving large tax cuts to the corporations. They have no problem giving large tax cuts that primarily benefit the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans. They have no problem voting themselves salary increases. However, they are quick to block even a modest increase in the minimum wage. They are indifferent to the fact that more than 20 percent of the children in America live in poverty, and that figure is growing. The people working at the minimum wage are also trying to raise, educate, and provide medical care for their children. The minimum wage is not a form of welfare. With no increase in five years, an increase now is well deserved. It is also an incentive for work. It is paradoxical that those who want people off welfare are also the ones who obstruct even a modest increase in the minimum wage. The premise that an increase in the minimum wage would cause a significant increase in the cost in goods and services is "flawed science." The biggest problem it would cause is some less-than-happy large political contributors. The unwillingness to increase the minimum wage says a lot about who we are and what we are as a nation. JACK D. COLBOTH Homerdale Avenue > Minimum wage hike is overdue a bunch of stuff from: > JACK D. COLBOTH > Homerdale Avenue Which is exactly the stuff I said was a waste of everyone's time. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Impotence...Nature's way of saying "No hard feelings. > > Minimum wage hike is overdue > a bunch of stuff from: > > JACK D. COLBOTH > > Homerdale Avenue > > Which is exactly the stuff I said was a waste of everyone's time. Well, support evidence, that's it. Don't read it! > If you don't start carrying on a discussion instead of quoting someone > else's pablum, I'll have to consider you too trollish to bother with > further. Actually, just quit cross-posting this crap into reeky. SignatureOdinn "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > If you don't start carrying on a discussion instead of quoting someone > > else's pablum, I'll have to consider you too trollish to bother with > > further. > > Actually, just quit cross-posting this crap into reeky. Funny I'm talking bringing some order into American DARWINIAN roads. But what the heck, only the small like MOTORCYCLES got most to lose. >>>If you don't start carrying on a discussion instead of quoting > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Funny I'm talking bringing some order into American DARWINIAN roads. > But what the heck, only the small like MOTORCYCLES got most to lose. People who refuse to read and follow the rules (laws) have the most to lose. Those of us who follow the rules don't have anything to lose. SignatureOdinn "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > Funny I'm talking bringing some order into American DARWINIAN roads. > > But what the heck, only the small like MOTORCYCLES got most to lose. > > People who refuse to read and follow the rules (laws) have the most to > lose. Those of us who follow the rules don't have anything to lose. Sure??? U.S. Rep runs stop sign and kills motorcyclist. It's always amusing, if sad, when law-makers break the law. U.S. Rep Bill Janklow (R-SD) recently ran a stop sign and killed a motorcyclist. A one-time, honest mistake? Hardly. Troopers allege that Janklow was speeding to the tune of 71mph. And this isn't the first time. In the early 80's law enforcement threatened to take away his license because he had so many speeding tickets, and he was cited 12 times for speeding between 1990 and 1994. News reports in South Dakota say he's been involved in seven previous accidents in the past 10 years, one of them resulting in minor injuries. So why is Janklow still allowed to be on the road? Here's one reason: In the early 80's he'd been warned that he could lose his license for speeding, but then as governor he signed a law exempting speeding violations from the point system used in South Dakota to track bad drivers. And with no penalty other than a small fine, there's nothing to keep Janklow -- or other drivers -- from speeding. As Janklow himself said: "Bill Janklow speeds when he drives -- shouldn't, but he does. When he gets the ticket he pays it, but if someone told me I was going to jail for two days for speeding, my driving habits would change. Of course, if all this wasn't damning enough, the fact that Janklow refuses to resign his congressional seat tells us everything we need to know about how much responsibility he takes for his bad driving. >From Pravda "You want real solutions to real problems (everyday ones). Fighting for bikelanes is the way to see the Lion?" Bader, having the OPTION to get around by bicycle FREE FROM RISK is NO SMALL WAY to beat the lion. Here we got a HUNGRY LION who loves you TO BURN OIL, and you chose to ride a CLEAN, THRIFTY BICYCLE. Of course you wouldn't choose a bicycle to go 50miles, but you would when you go 5miles, and MOST trips fall within that distance. Even better though is to have the efficient car (or shared ownership) and the bicycle used together with other ALTERNATIVE TRANSPORTATION like public transportation, including light train and fast trains. One such organization that sees the connection between HUNGRY LION and OIL is... 'Bike for Peace is here to help you withdraw your dollars from oil companies which profit from "oil wars" and create environmental and social catastrophes world-wide.' http://bikeforpeace.org The Wogster wrote: > > If I haven't read the end of your post first, I'd have thought you were > > on the side of the predators, but no, I don't know where you stand. > > It's called playing devils advocate.... Where I stand is that I believe > that we can use modern technology to decrease pollution as much as we > can use technology to increase pollution. I'm glad you are not the Devil itself, who drives an SUV, since Jesus drives a Chevy Aveo. ;) The solution is both HI TECH AND LOW TECH. Bicycles would be lo tech and sun batteries hi tech. But the problem isn't the technology in itself but the politics of it. That's why NOTHING IS HAPPENING while the good ideas are sitting out there. One such place with plenty of them is... 'Natural Capitalism' book The Economist (Nov. 13, 1999): "Much of what the authors argue for is sensible, and certainly desirable. But what makes this book worth reading is the fact that the authors have taken as first principles for their Utopia the harsh truths of Darwinian capitalism: individuals and companies act in their self interest, and markets guide that impulse through prices." http://www.natcap.org/ > > Anyway, you are right, Dubya is NOT the first warmongering leader, just > > the latest. The tradition of WAGING WAR AND PURSUING EXTRAVAGANT > > PROJECTS probably started in a GRAND SCALE with the pharaohs. The > > pyramids look cute in the desert, but they sure were a big waste, and > > hardly a nice job for the slaves who built them. Well, at least they > > didn't live as long as present day Proles. And so the tradition > > continued with so many LIONS along history--Romans, the Church, > > Communism--until we get to 2005... > > Look at his latest project, all that oil in Iraq, that means Americans > can drive their big massive SUV's even longer.... Personally I don't > see why a single person, who only travels by themselves on city streets > needs anything like a Cadillac Escalade, sure it only pollutes as much > as a '67 Pontiac, but then we haven't gotten any further ahead, either, > and there are twice as many of them on the road. Well, at least they are grateful by showing the flag. Bicycles, on the other hand, should carry a PEACE SIGN. > The US government could have fixed the problem, by adding larger and > larger numbers of vehicles to CAFE. If the 15MPG of a Escalade counted > against the 30MPG of a Chevy Aveo, GM would be in big trouble. But they get away through the light truck loophole. A big hole we got there. > > The year 2004 is set to finish as the fourth-warmest since > > record-keeping began in 1861, fitting a pattern that has placed nine of > > the past 10 years among the warmest on record, the WMO said in its > > annual global climate report. > > If just mans pollution, no other forces were at work, was the cause of > the warming trend, then each successive year would be warmer then the > previous. The issue is, that there are other sources of pollution, such > as volcanos, forest fires started by lightening strikes, etc. These > also contribute to the problem, doesn't mean we should pollute > willy-nilly, just that there are other forces at work. In weather you got to talk about averages and if you get so many more hot years in a decade then there may be something. It's not like it gets hotter every year. > The problem with pollution is that it's economical, even if it's not > efficient. Good capitalism can be profitable too, as Natural Capitalism shows, but capitalism is so blind AND it must make a profit year to year, ignoring long term consequences. That's why it earns the term DARWINIAN. > > Right, revolutionaries in American support the war in Iraq and never > > ask questions. By the way, most real revolutionaries concerned about > > America ARE Americans. One example is BikeforPeace.org and Economic > > Justice. They simply want a better America. > > Write your local politician, and ask why he/she/it isn't supporting > Kyoto and other polution lowering processes. It ain't jobs, those are > all moving to China and India anyway..... It ain't that they don't know, just that they do like the ostrich. :( > > Much of urban travel is already "bike-sized": 40 percent of all trips > > in the United States (and 50 percent in Britain) are 2 miles or > > shorter. More than 25 percent of all trips are under a mile in the > > United States. "Cycling could eliminate some of these short, > > air-polluting trips," Gardner said, citing estimates that 90 percent > > of emissions in a 7-mile trip are generated in the first mile before > > the engine warms up. > > Think about it this way, a bicycle takes a lane around 1m wide, a car > takes a lane 3.5m wide, so a road with 6 lanes each way. full of idling > engines could be replaced with 20 bike lanes, A bike has a turning > circle of under 1m and takes a parking space that is .5m wide and 2m > long. A car takes a parking space 2m wide and 3m long, so a parking lot > for 1000 cars could hold over 6000 bikes. Imagine the mall with 20000 > car spaces. Not that we need to eliminate the car completely, if your > picking up a weeks groceries, then you can always do what my mom does, > she's over 80 and just had a knee replacement done, she takes a cab. > > However if your just picking up a couple of things, then yeah bikes > would make a lot of sense. I totally agree with it. But what a pity THE REVOLUTION ain't for America anymore. Now it's for Mexico... Jalapeno and senorita lovers, VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!! >The solution is both HI TECH AND LOW TECH. Bicycles would be lo tech >and sun batteries hi tech. But the problem isn't the technology in >itself but the politics of it. That's why NOTHING IS HAPPENING while >the good ideas are sitting out there. That you believe this is not surprising, since you are otherwise too lazy to actually look around yourself. There are any number of alternate energy sources being investigated and developed. All you need to do is look around, and read (something you have expressed an inability to do). SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >The solution is both HI TECH AND LOW TECH. Bicycles would be lo tech > >and sun batteries hi tech. But the problem isn't the technology in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and developed. All you need to do is look around, and read (something > you have expressed an inability to do). Sorry, I trust my eyes. I see no bicycles, I see SUVs. And as I far as I know there isn't much to investigate about bicycles. "Whither capitalism, now that the communist dragon is slain?" The COMMUNIST DRAGON may have been slain, but the CAPITALIST DINOSAUR refuses to evolve. Only a miracle or a REVOLUTION can do the trick... Natural Capitalism I have just started reading this book, and just finished reading "Ecology of Commerce". No I don't think it is a watershed text. Business is just too set in its ways and won't change, and the US Government is also set in its old ways and won't make laws to change things. I do believe the ideas in this book and in "Ecology of Commerce" are great ideas, but most people I know don't know of these books or the ideas in them and are in love with "business as usual", that is the dot com craze, biotech, etc. They haven't a clue as to the problems with "business as usual". With the recent reports of drastic climate change this winter (spring temperatures in the Midwest and New England all winter, dying coastal forests in Florida), I think its too late. Sorry for my pessimistic view but I think the train is moving in the wrong direction and there is just too much momentum, and I don't see things changing. I do want to re-iterate that I do much appreciate Paul Hawken's, Amory & Hunter Lovin's efforts in trying to show the US and the world a new way and don't mean to discount them. They did what they could and should get credit for that. They also have great ideas. It is just that the "powers that be" are not ready to listen. >> >The solution is both HI TECH AND LOW TECH. Bicycles would be lo tech >> >and sun batteries hi tech. But the problem isn't the technology in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Sorry, I trust my eyes. I see no bicycles, I see SUVs. And as I far as >I know there isn't much to investigate about bicycles. You see no bicycles? Sorry, I simply do not believe this. I notice that you also ignore that there is much research and development of alternative energy sources. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> >The solution is both HI TECH AND LOW TECH. Bicycles would be lo tech > >> >and sun batteries hi tech. But the problem isn't the technology in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I notice that you also ignore that there is much research and > development of alternative energy sources. Well believe it, only 1% of all commuting is done by bike vs. something like 30% in Holland. But ain't about R&D, it's about having the rigth price to make these technologies viable. Peter wrote: > > For example, transportation based businesses often need extra licences, > > you might need a vendors permit, and a school bus drivers licence, you > > might need to repaint your SUV that wonderful diarhea yellow, that > > school buses are painted, and you may need extra safety inspections. > > You may need to install extra safety equipment. In other words, you > > might need to drive a "short" bus to get away with it. In other words > > the state can make it a big pain in the don-key. > > State regulations can make lots of things a big pain (as I check over my > 1040), but it's silly to think that creating a new regulation will only > have the intended consequences and won't also cause people to look for > ways to evade them. > > In the case sited originally by donquixote above, the government enacted > the CAFE standards but created separate classes for 'passenger vehicles' > and 'light trucks'. One predictable result was that car makers switched > many of their previous sales of passenger vehicles to the light truck > category by creating SUVs and minivans. It's naive to think that there > wouldn't be a similar shift to evade your proposed $8/gallon price > differential between commercial and personal vehicles. I'd also note > that there are lots of vehicles operated by businesses today that are > driven with regular licenses, no special paint jobs or safety features, > etc. Enacting a raft of regulations to make it "a big pain" for > individuals to use the commercial vehicle loophole would also create a > substantial burden for many current businesses. I'd go for it the simple way: Tax gas (to at least the European levels) to go to pay for ALTERNATIVE TRANSPORTATION. Then THE REVOLUTION would start. ;) You can still require a SPECIAL LICENSE FOR LIGHT TRUCKS (SUV's) and lift all restrictions on imported efficient vehicles which would open the gates to vehicles like Fiat, Renault, Opel, etc. > > >> >The solution is both HI TECH AND LOW TECH. Bicycles would be lo > tech [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > But ain't about R&D, it's about having the rigth price to make these > technologies viable. The R&D has to be done first. Otherwise, you don't have a technology to price right or play politics with. For instance, 10 years ago, when I was in grad school at the University of Idaho, they were doing research on gas-electric hybrid cars. They had such a car that they worked on and entered in races for such vehicles. Now, you see gas-electric hybrids on the streets and the car companies can't make them fast enough. Without that UI car 10 years ago (and others like it), there would be no Prius now. --Andy -------------------------------------------------- Andrew G. Tompkins Software Engineer Beaverton, OR http://home.comcast.net/~andytom/Highways -------------------------------------------------- > The R&D has to be done first. Otherwise, you don't have a technology to price right > or play politics with. For instance, 10 years ago, when I was in grad school at the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > enough. Without that UI car 10 years ago (and others like it), there would be no > Prius now. Well, both. But they say there's no bad alternatives, but having no incentive to use them. The bicycle though is fully developed (unless the new bikes without chains are a real breakthrough) and yet they are not used. So it must be a matter of de-incentivizing the car and of making the bicycle safe. In other words, of having the POLITICAL WILL to do it. > > The R&D has to be done first. Otherwise, you don't have a technology > to price right [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Well, both. But they say there's no bad alternatives, but having no > incentive to use them. ?? Try better sentence structure. > The bicycle though is fully developed (unless > the new bikes without chains are a real breakthrough) and yet they are > not used. Its not the bicycle itself that needs work. Its the bicycle infrastructure that needs further buildout and the bicycle/vehicle/pedestrian interface that needs further R&D. --Andy -------------------------------------------------- Andrew G. Tompkins Software Engineer Beaverton, OR http://home.comcast.net/~andytom/Highways -------------------------------------------------- > > Well, both. But they say there's no bad alternatives, but having no > > incentive to use them. > > ?? Try better sentence structure. I'll try an example. Take this, "heating water with rooftop installations is successful but at best marginally cost-effective where energy is cheap." So are solar rooftop installations a solution? If petroleum is expensive, it can be, but if it is cheap (the case of America) then it won't. Likewise with EVs. If petroleum is so cheap they won't become cost-effective, and thus they won't be more than an oddity--or good PR for Toyota, who otherwise sells plenty more gas-guzzling SUVs. Any moral? GAS IS TOO CHEAP!!! > > The bicycle though is fully developed (unless > > the new bikes without chains are a real breakthrough) and yet they are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > needs further buildout and the bicycle/vehicle/pedestrian interface that needs > further R&D. That's exactly what I say, only that we need to start now. But the folks at bicycle forums reject any other solution than people overcoming their "irrational fears" and facing our Darwinian roads. Just like that, you are your family riding among the predators. :( Would you agree with BIKE LANES? The Wogster wrote: > > Out of the new cars the Focus and the Mini tempt me. An Aveo, maybe. > All my new car choices are small, I got the Intrepid because a tree ate > my car (wind broke a tree branch and it landed on my not quite 2 year > old Kia Sephia), and my father-in-law after a series of heart attacks > was told to surrender his licence, so I took over his car..... Let's > see there is the Chevy Aveo, Kia Rio, Smart, and the VW Jetta TDI. The > Aveo isn't the best on the ratings though, but at 46MPG (Imperial > Gallons) the Jetta TDI certainly is pretty good. I coincide with all these choices, but don't know the Smart. I love SMALL WITH STICK SHIFT. In Europe though you get so many more choices, and their small cars are really sharp. Regretabbly they are not imported here over stupid regulations, which are meant simply to keep 'em out. Thy lion is MONOPOLISTIC. :( > As I said before the bike is the most efficient short haul, small load > vehicle, for a trip like going to the video store for the latest Bond > flick, you don't need a 9000lb truck! Just a touring bike with a pannier. > >>you should be able to get about 200-250 bikes in one rail car. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Foldable would be nice, most of the foldables I have seen though are > towards the higher end of the weight scale, and tend to have the same > kind of handlebars that you see on "old lady" bikes... The one in the link looks real sharp. I'd love to see it. As for the time > period, I think that it could happen fairly fast, the problem is that > fuel prices have been kept artificially low due to market size in North > America along with relatively low taxation. However what's interesting > is that the US market is a drop in the bucket compared to Asia, where > consumption is rising at startling rates. > > As China grows (economically), the amount of oil needed to run all those > factories, and move around all those people around, grows too, but > pumping capacity really hasn't changed. So demand is steadily > increasing but product availability is stagnent, and when that happens > the price goes up, way up. The oil companies are using the price > fluctuations to bump the spread. > > Here is what happens, the price of a barrel of oil (42 US Gallons) goes > up 42 cents, so the price of gas goes up a penny a gallon, well that > makes sense. The price of a barrel goes down 42 cents, the price of gas > stays the same, well we need to wait for the more expensive fuel to get > through the system. That's funny, you didn't wait a month for the > cheaper stuff to get through the system before raising the price. > Except that the price is up one day, down the next, up the next, so at > each increase you raise the price a lot, and ignore many of the > decreases, increasing the profit level. The gas station, on the other > hand, sets his price at cost plus, say 10 cents a gallon. So if he pays > $1.10 then your paying $1.20, if he pays $1.25 your paying $1.35. I > expect by 2010 the average US price will be somewhere north of $3.00 > Gallon.... An SUV that costs $50 for a fill today will be somewhere > above a C note in 5 years time. I'm not that optimist. If we don't have the INFRASTRUCTURE FOR BICYCLES, people won't come out. They are afraid, you know. Even in a small car you should be afraid. So another thing we need is TRAFFIC LAW ENFORCEMENT. We need LANE DISCIPLINE; we need to BAN THE PHONES; we need SPECIAL LICENSE FOR SUVs... And who will change the dinosaur that refuses to evolve if not THE REVOLUTION? Well, the asteroid but that's another issue... ;) > > This other goal though would be accomplished by 2150, if things go > > well... ;) > > I expect to see some of these by 2015, a lot by 2050, not that, that > would do me a lot of good, if I am still around in 2050, I will be 91!!!! No. We don't have an smart dinosaur; we got a gluttonous beast. We need POLITICAL WILL to see things happening. We need a president who's courageous enough to say the taboo word: SAVE!!! I'm planning on living 150 years to see these changes happening. I hope civilization is still around by then. ;) >I love SMALL WITH STICK SHIFT. Yeah, that's what SHE said... ;) SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: > >I love SMALL WITH STICK SHIFT. > > Yeah, that's what SHE said... ;) And you didn't give it to her? The Wogster wrote: > donquijote1954 wrote: > > > We don't even use here in America the world "efficiency" that much, and > > such comparisons are never taken into consideration. Perhaps they are > > considered but in reverse, separating the "haves" from the "haves not." > I guess it's the biggest difference between Americans and Canadians, > Americans either spend money for show or look for the cheapest. > Canadians don't mind spending money, as long as you get your moneys > worth out of the product. It's interesting when you see the guy, you > know owns the $10 million mansion, and he drives a 10 year old Chevy > Cavalier, because he doesn't really care..... So you don't haver the SUV fad up there? I guess here no decent lion goes around without one. > There are also safety issues, it's like the armoured car companies, you > can throw $5,000,000,000,000 in cash in a standard rental cube van, and > drive through the roughest part of town, and nobody will bother you, > because they think it's a van full of somebodies junk. Driving a big > limo or a Rolls screams kidnap me, I'm rich. Maybe too many of them down here to stand out. And then they all look the same behind the tinted window of the SUV. The thieves/kidnappers will never know if someone is there or not!!!! ;) > >>Traffic law enforcement should be a given, even though they seem to > >>only care about speed limits, lane discipline has NEVER been enforcord, > >>and probably never will be, phones are getting banned...... > > > At least something is being accomplished there. Here phones are still a > > favorite passtime while driving. > > I once saw, on a highway a older woman, yapping on a cell phone and > applying makeup while attempting to drive at 125km/h. Where's a cop > when you need one.... Here's common place. You said they are trying to ban it, or did ban it up there, right? That would still leave you with a jungle, but not the deep jungle, where no rules apply and size matters. > > I see our roads still chaotic while the other stuff is still happening. > > But I wonder why people fear anarchism if we already have it in our > > roads? > > Anarchy, in many places always did exist on the roads, here in Ontario > we have a highway monitoring system called compass, which will usually > tell you something like traffic is moving very slowly (that means it > hasn't actually moved, since last Tuesday), slowly (it moved a couple of > millimeters yesterday). Compass uses in road detectors and traffic > cameras, so they could add some interesting new messages, like this one > "Would plate #M3M1Y7 please move into the right hand lane". This would > be the guy going 45km/h in a 100km/h zone. > > W I can imagine the sign: "The old lady with the phone, would you please pull out of the road until you finish your stupid conversation?" > > > Well, both. But they say there's no bad alternatives, but having > no [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > expensive, it can be, but if it is cheap (the case of America) then it > won't. There are people out there that make money off of their solar panels by selling excess power that they don't use to the power company. > Likewise with EVs. If petroleum is so cheap they won't become > cost-effective, and thus they won't be more than an oddity--or good PR > for Toyota, who otherwise sells plenty more gas-guzzling SUVs. I would suggest that you look at what is going on out there now. People are selling their used hybrids for more than they bought them new. The demand is out there while the supply is not. On the other hand, one of the local car dealers here is selling new Explorers for $20000 (I bought mine 7 years ago for $35000). The demand for these is simply no longer there. > Any moral? GAS IS TOO CHEAP!!! This won't last long. With the steep increase in fuel usage in developing countries (China, India, Russia, etc.), the demand for fuel will quickly outstrip the capability to supply. Once that point is reached, prices will go up quickly. > > > The bicycle though is fully developed (unless > > > the new bikes without chains are a real breakthrough) and yet they [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Would you agree with BIKE LANES? Yes, and the Portland area is one of the metro areas that is investing in them, either as separated bike paths along freeways/expressways, or as diamond-marked bike lanes. Anytime construction occurs on a street, bike lanes are usually added. --Andy -------------------------------------------------- Andrew G. Tompkins Software Engineer Beaverton, OR http://home.comcast.net/~andytom/Highways -------------------------------------------------- > > Likewise with EVs. If petroleum is so cheap they won't become > > cost-effective, and thus they won't be more than an oddity--or good PR [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > new Explorers for $20000 (I bought mine 7 years ago for $35000). The demand for > these is simply no longer there. Something must be wrong with capitalism if not with moral responsibility when "supply and demand" doesn't work. They should be working overtime on providing them (unless they were meant for PR), and the government should be subsidizing them, not SUVs. Or simply they can TAX SUVs to go toward EVs. Ain't simple? But do they dare challenge the dinosaur? > > Any moral? GAS IS TOO CHEAP!!! > > This won't last long. With the steep increase in fuel usage in developing countries > (China, India, Russia, etc.), the demand for fuel will quickly outstrip the > capability to supply. Once that point is reached, prices will go up quickly. Before that happens there will be an invasion of Venezuela and Alaska drilled inch by inch. > > Would you agree with BIKE LANES? > > Yes, and the Portland area is one of the metro areas that is investing in them, > either as separated bike paths along freeways/expressways, or as diamond-marked bike > lanes. Anytime construction occurs on a street, bike lanes are usually added. I'd propose retrofitting all major streets in America with bike lanes, so people can have CHOICES. As a human being, I'm really pissed off that I don't have roads that welcome my bicycles. Only a jungle, and the jungle must end. Allow me to recycle this which is about THE REVOLUTION to end the jungle... john wrote: > I agree with Doreen Miller that things here are getting worse in terms > of political liberties. That we're at the stage of Orwell's "1984" > yet, I doubt. I agree that all kinds of people had better work like > hell to keep the "1984" scenario from unfolding. Remember, "1984" is political satire, not a realistic projection of the future. It's a warning about some tendencies we are already living... 'In many ways, Bush has become the physical manifestation of Big Brother, the omnipotent, all-knowing symbol of leadership in Oceania. In "1984", Big Brother is both feared and loved by the people. His power goes untested. Similarly, the Bush administration has sculpted an infallible image of integrity for itself, and the American people have responded with a show of faith and support. In fact, it has become accepted, if not fashionable, to show American pride with stickers, T-shirts and flags. A frenzy of nationalism has infected our country; and consequently we have put trust in the government to do all that is necessary to defend and vindicate the United States. As a result, American freedoms are being cleverly attacked by new legislation, which is taking advantage of the vulnerability of its citizens. In "1984", signs reading "Big Brother is watching you" constantly remind the people of Oceania that their every move is being monitored and judged. The Bush administration has enacted programs such as TIPS (Terrorism Information and Prevention System), which allows the government to recruit citizen-spies within the United States to supplement law enforcement. In addition, the USA Patriot Act now allows law enforcement and intelligence agencies to expand surveillance to monitor phone conversations, Internet usage and business transactions. All the while, it eliminates the checks and balances system which allows courts to oversee the legality and integrity of the affairs.' [url]http://orwell.ru/a_life/USA/e/e_oprt.htm[/url] > As a democratic socialist and an opponent of the American police state, > I guess I would like to see some kind of economic "revolution" if it's > done right, and if it's carried off peacefully, and if it doesn't lead > to some new form of tyranny. > > Those are three big "Ifs," however. I'd responds to those "ifs" with: The REVOLUTION will be peaceful or not at all. Another "Civil War" scenario is as unthinkable as a WW3 as a "solution" to the problem that we got, namely war and environmental devastation, not to name poverty, crime, etc. As for tyranny, I don't think there's much of a chance if you choose Orwell as your inspiration. He warned us against the pigs taking over the revolution, as well as against Big Brother. Further safety can be had by drawing from anarchism... "Anarchism has been written off time and again by politically-minded people as a quaint historical anachronism, irrelevant as the century turns. But the politicians themselves are living out the final sentence of George Orwell's Animal Farm, where the poor creatures out in the yard peered through the windows of the farmhouse, looking from pig to man and from man to pig, but found it impossible to say which was which. In real life this leads to apathy and resignation as well as to the rise of demagogues and dictators. But if people had faith in their capacity to make decisions, it could be changed by an upsurge of popular self-organisation and inventiveness. Probably every generation has to learn this." [url]http://www.circlealpha.com/library/anarchism_future.html[/url] > But any attempt to create "REVOLUTION" through armed struggle and > street fighting, I think, will only make political repression in this > country worse. Mussolini's fascism first emerged in Italy because > middle-class Italians were afraid of a Bolshevik-style revolution on > the part of the Italian Communist Party. Hitler won the support of big > German industrialists in the late 1920s because they were deathly > afraid of domestic Communists and the Soviet Union. Historically, > fascism becomes strong, and capitalists become willing to support it, > when capitalist societies feel threatened by leftwing revolution. > > So I don't think your sunny optimism about life after the "REVOLUTION" > is justified. It will only be justified if those of us working for > fundamental change can keep millions of middle-class Americans from > being so frightened of us that they're willing to support really ugly, > ugly authoritarians. True. They must be assured that IF THEY DON'T CHANGE THEY ARE DOOMED. And that we represent a reasonable solution. Forget about something really radical. If America were to adopt the politics of Canada, it would be saved, at least it would be spared from war and it would have universal healthcare at a lower price tag, and that amounts to a revolution. If, however, more is to be expected, then they could put in practice something more ambitious like what I propose, which is not anarchist, but which provides many working models. ([url]http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1[/url]) > And I think you're not going to sell your sunny optimism about > "REVOLUTION" to millions of politically moderate Americans in the > middle class and the high end of the working class who don't want to > lose their houses, their 401(k) plans and their lives in any kind of > revolutionary upheaval. Their priviledges may need some readjustment, but their future will look brighter. Who you think have a better future, American elites or Scandinavian elites? Scandinavian elites have learned to share and they live in societies with fewer conflicts, and have learned to share in international efforts for peace. It pays off. > I think drastic economic changes are going to have to be made, pretty > soon, to keep millions of Americans from sinking into poverty and > economic despair. The current situation with corporate "downsizing" > and "outsourcing" of good jobs to China and other low-wage countries > just does not bode well for American working people. I know. But, it's first the poor that are affected, until it reaches the Middle Classes themselves, and then it becomes an issue. We are playing by the Law of the Jungle, and by the same law we are threatened militarily and economically. That's why America, too, has a big stake in ending the jungle. > But to have a chance of succeeding, proponents of a post-capitalist > society are going to have to sell their vision to the vast majority of > the American people, including large numbers of people in the armed > forces and the intelligence community and state and local police forces > that most anarchists are now treating as the bad guys. The anarchists are wrong in that. At the FTAA in Miami, I felt more hostility from some of them than from the autorities. (Though who doubts they were undercover.) The police, the security services, and the armed forces, all have a bit stake in defending the country, BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE. They have families; they want to see healthcare for all, not only for those who join the Army; they want the resources being invested here, not in some far away land. But we are not selling a post-capilist society, but ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY (EconomicDemocracy.org), where you can practice democracy politically and economically. > Maybe the rapid development of a sub-economy of coops and worker-owned > enterprises within the existing economic structure is the only way to > proceed under those circumstances. But in order to prevent a massive > turn towards sweatshop labor as the US economy gets less and less > competitive internationally, I think progressive and leftist people > also are going to need to capture the capitalist State, and use that > State to maintain minimal labor and environmental standards. Perhaps it can be captured somewhere else, see how it works, and then be brought by democratic means to America. For example it may happen first in Haiti or Colombia or Mexico and then spread around. That's the way the American Revolution inspired the French and Haitian revolutions. > All the while persuading the vast majority of the people, including > many who now call themselves "conservatives," that the new order > really will protect their interests and their liberty. They will be better off if they can live free from fear. The jungle is a very scary place... An Alternative Inaugural Presidential Address "From this day forward, our country renews a rock solid commitment to the world rule of law. Just as no individual is above the law within countries, no nation can be above the law among countries. We believe that if we disregard the law of nations we're left with the Law of the Jungle, where the only constraint on violence is the power and ruthlessness of those who would employ it. Rest assured, in that world, we won't be the only ones to employ it." (more...[url]http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0120-21.htm[/url]) >There are people out there that make money off of their solar panels by selling >excess power that they don't use to the power company. Really, care to tell us where? How exactly do people in Illinois or New York do this? >I would suggest that you look at what is going on out there now. People are selling >their used hybrids for more than they bought them new. The demand is out there while Only to morons. >>There are people out there that make money off of their solar panels by selling >>excess power that they don't use to the power company. > >Really, care to tell us where? How exactly do people in Illinois or >New York do this? Not sure about the details in those states, but generally customers with solar panels have special electric meters that are rigged to run backwards when the power generated by the solar panels exceeds the needs of the house. >>I would suggest that you look at what is going on out there now. People are selling >>their used hybrids for more than they bought them new. The demand is out there while > >Only to morons. There are a LOT of morons. Everybody wants instant gratification; we don't want to wait for anything, especially trendy hybrid vehicles. "Don't care how, I want it now." My guess is the sellers bought hybrids, realized they weren't going to save any money, and decided to cut their losses and sell - then they found out that buyers were getting into bidding wars to buy those cars. Others - like the guy selling his Prius for $31,000 - saw the opportunity and decided to cash in. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>Really, care to tell us where? How exactly do people in Illinois or >>New York do this? > Not sure about the details in those states, but generally customers > with solar panels have special electric meters that are rigged to run > backwards when the power generated by the solar panels exceeds the > needs of the house. Many states have laws on the books that deal with this. That's how co-generation plants make their money. SmithCo originally started as a contractor that provided steam and power to Dayton Tire for their plant in OKC (one example). The steam was the primary product with the excess (production over what Dayton needed) they ran steam turbines which generate electricity. Anything over and above what the SmithCo and Dayton plants needed to operate goes out on "the grid" and the state electrical company (OG&E) has to buy it under state law. This is because for every kilowatt placed on the grid by SmithCo, that's one less kilowatt that OG&E needs to create. This delays the need to expanding their (OG&E's) production capacity. OG&E fought it because they have to buy it at the going rate instead of their cost to produce. But since the state grants them permission to run as pretty much a monopoly, this is part of the package deal (the good or reduced competition with the perceived "bad"). Those same laws would apply to individuals with the ability to produce excess capacity. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." --Bertrand de Jouvenel The Wogster wrote: > The dinosaur has severely affected the North, first we can't stop US > pollution at the border, most Southern Ontario smog days are not caused > by local conditions, although we do contribute to the mess, most of it > comes up from the US, this is why you get Smog days in tiny little > places. The second thing is the far north is known as the land of the > midnight sun, where the sun doesn't really set for a month and a half on > either side of the Summer Solstice. By the same token for a month and a > half on either side of the Winter solstice, the sun does not appear at > all. However pollution in the atmosphere now reflects sunlight, so that > it never really gets dark anymore. Most of this is caused by particulate. I didn't know it was that bad. And there's people that still deny the whole thing. You got no way to resettle Canada in any other place? > > You mean in the morning, or all day long? > > All day long..... Went shopping there a couple of times, and yeah, gotta > feel sorry for the guys in Buffalo. Someone wanna order 5,000,000 > tonnes of bananas and maple syrup for Buffalo...... Banana pancakes > with maple syrup...... Yep. That's a big hope. Senoritas here love banana with syrup, and thus they want THE REVOLUTION. Now the official name is BANANA/CALYPSO/DAIQUIRI REVOLUTION, or simply BANANA REVOLUTION or THE REVOLUTION. ;) > > Well, if it wors, you got it right. But zigzaging is deadly, and you > > see it here all the time. Well, you see ANYTHING here. > > Yeah, it is, you have grandpa going 60km/h in the left hand lane, and > Johnnu going 160km/h doing the bob and weave, it's a bomb that goes off > much less often then you would expect. Oh here it goes off all the time. It's probably good for the Insurance/Lawyer/Medical/Towing/Rental Car/Police Industry. > > I guess, or perhaps bars shouldn't have a parking lot so you don't get > > there by car in ther first place. Of course, education is the main > > thing. > > I don't know about that, but perhaps they should need to take some > responsibility, for example, you need to turn over your car keys when > you arrive, and show a green on portable breathalyser in order to get > them back when you leave. Good idea. We'll put in practice with THE REVOLUTION. > I remember years ago a legion hall, in a small village, on a Friday or > Saturday night when the older men were drinking away their pay, the > local constable would sit in the parking lot. When some guy comes out, > obviously having had too much, he would approach that car, and say, hey > Fred you don't really want to do that, do you? Of course as soon as the > car starts, out comes the breathalyser, gee Fred that's a red, shut it > down, and leave the car, now. If Fred put it in drive, then he was > charged right then and there. The local taxi driver was the richest guy > in town..... It makes sense too. PREVENTION IS THE BEST MEDICINE, not for the "Industry" though... ;) > > And this one, "hey filthy pig in the SUV, you are poisoning innocent > > kids." > > That would go over really well.... And then you mandate they replace all the bumper stickers with "God Bless Me. For I give a damn." >>>There are people out there that make money off of their solar panels by selling >>>excess power that they don't use to the power company. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >backwards when the power generated by the solar panels exceeds the >needs of the house. Yes, but it is not feasible in the majority of areas in the US. Iraq, that would be a different story. >There are a LOT of morons. Yes, mostly in the left lane. > >Not sure about the details in those states, but generally customers > >with solar panels have special electric meters that are rigged to run [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, but it is not feasible in the majority of areas in the US. Iraq, > that would be a different story. You don't need solar panels in Iraq. They will be treated to cheap electricity to keep their heads cool with air conditioning. Hollywood bang-bang movies, cheap talk shows, soap operas and sitcoms are equally important and will be absolutely free (provided they endure the torture of commercials) to keep their brains from ever wondering about issues like politics. It works in other places. > >There are a LOT of morons. > > Yes, mostly in the left lane. I agree. Though they actually may be thinking of themselves as smart, having all that space on the left to themselves, to enjoy and do as they please while all those stupid people on the right are crowded. They would wake up to reality in the Autobahn. > >There are a LOT of morons. > > Yes, mostly in the left lane. Those morons deserve harsh punishment, DTJ. I mean, not torture, but something like this... Geez, a real politician, finding real problems, in the real world... Must be in a very far place. Let me see, the UK... He found out while driving that MIDDLE LANE HOGS SUCK! And they will flash signs that go, "Hey stupid and selfish bastard, move over or I will get your bloody arse in gaol." Just kidding... Well, the flashing sign is for real, not the language... ;) 'Highways officials are considering the use of motorway message boards to instruct errant drivers not to hog the middle lane, it emerged today. The proposal was revealed in a parliamentary written answer from Roads Minister David Jamieson to Lichfield MP Michael Fabricant, who blames poor lane discipline for much of the congestion he encounters while driving between Staffordshire and Westminster. In his reply, Mr Jamieson admitted that the Department of Transport had not conducted any research into bad lane practice. However, he added: "Police motorway patrols can, where they think appropriate, pull up motorists for poor lane discipline, and indeed can prosecute where the motorist's behaviour amounts to inconsiderate driving. "Also, the Highways Agency is currently exploring the possibility of using the variable message signs on motorways (VMS) to encourage lane discipline, alongside their present use for early warning to motorists about traffic queues ahead and advice on diversion routes."' Benjamin Lewis wrote: > > The problem we often find ourselves with, is that whenever someone comes > > up with a solution, to a problem, solutions are extremely few and very > > far between, yet, on the rare occassion one does come up, everyone is > > quick to look at the problems with it, but no one is willing to offer > > other solutions. > > Wider curb lanes. Driver in extrawide double-wheeled pikckup truck exclaims: "Gee, how nice they thought of us in making wider curb lanes. I'm going to vote Republican again." Wouldn't it be a nice idea to put a line to separate prey and predator? Forget it, the freedom to prey is an inalienable right. "And who the hell are you tell Americans what to eat or what to buy? Patrick Henry said Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death! Liberty means buying whatever car I want and eating a nice 36oz Porterhouse steak with a twice baked potatoe with bacon and cheese, wild mushrooms sauted in double butter not some choice steak from Sam's Club but a steak that costs $60.00 from my butcher. A nice shrimp cocktail made with fresh shrimp and a nice Merlot from a local Virginia vineyard. I am lucky high cholesterol doesn't run in my family. I take my old pickup truck with the 429 crate engine to pick it up and put all kinds of CO2 and NOX in the air. Freedom of choice dolphin. This is why we live in the US not France, Germany or Canada or even the UK." http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa?forumID=11&threadID=12382&tstart=135 "Welcome to the Jurassic" Benjamin Lewis wrote: > donquijote wrote: > > > Benjamin Lewis wrote: > >> > >> What's with this predator/prey crap anyway? If a driver *wants* to hit > >> me, he or she can easily do so with or without a paint stripe. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > If it's an accident, then this predator/prey metaphor is inappropriate. I've never gone so far as to suggest SUVs are on the hunt for Chevy Aveos, but still the metaphor is appropriate where there's a SIZE WAR, both for STATUS (an Escalade driver is higher up in the food chain than a Jeep Liberty) and for SURVIVAL (if these two vehicles collide it ain't difficult to guess who will come out on top). Naturally a bicycle will score lowest on both counts placing at the very bottom of the food chain, either through ACCIDENT or NEGLIGENCE or UNDERTRAINING. And there's hardly any effort to crack down on these. Our roads are still ruled by the Law of the Jungle. > > I know it sounds terribly confusing to the holders of the cheap Driver's0 > > License some hold, but that's the best way to protect others, > > particularly if the are weak and small. It's their best insurance against > > the Law of the Jungle. > > So you say. I don't buy it. I'll put it this way: The driver of the SUV has his territory, I got mine. If he were stupid enough to cross the line (no more effective than a line in the sand, but still a line you shouldn't cross) and hit me, his tires would leave a mark, a trail of the crime, if you will, which would make no excuses possible ("I never saw him" etc). He crossed the line and got to pay for it. > >> No bicycle apartheid! We're all people! > > > > Well that sounds awfully good, but not until we have THE REVOLUTION to > > abandon once and for all the Law of the Jungle, we can trust the > > predator. Meanwhile it's safer to do it like that. Lions on one side, > > prey on the other. Nature knows best. If you don't believe me, visit > > Lion Country Safari in Palm Beach, Fla. > > No thanks, I already have enough people trying to restrict my freedom in > the name of "my best interest" or "my safety". The thing is, cycling on > roads isn't unsafe to begin with. Every activity carries *some* risk, but > cycling is well within the acceptable range. Not according to the 99% who NEVER ride a bicycle to work. It remains an unacceptable high risk when you are at bottom of the food chain in a lawless jungle. I was reminded of it the other day: I was hit by a car in my Geo Tracker, but he sped away and I had to chased him down for a few blocks before getting hold of him. > Bicycle apartheid only increases the misperception that bicycles and cars > can't peacefully coexist. They can (Key West is prove of that) but something got to give: Either BIKE LANES (separation) or ROAD DISCIPLINE (lane discipline, no phones, etc). If neither one is applied the status quo is maintained in favor of the big and stupid. Welcome to the Jurassic. "ATTACK OF THE SARDINES!" ;) john wrote: > If what you mean by "competition" is "market exchange, but with social > ownership structure and limits to how competitive it gets," sure, fine. > Maybe your revolution would liberate the sardines. (aren't sardines > themselves predators, though? Just very small ones? - just a > linguistic question). That's what I mean. But the limits pretty much take care of themselves by real competition rather regulation. As for the sardines, sure, they are smaller predators, just like us. But the key word is the *degree* of predation. Say, a coop of 500 members may own 25 cars to be shared when the real need arises. In the meantime, 475 gas-guzzling cars are saved. Oh, a shark wouldn't even be satisfied with a regular car; he would need an SUV to show his status at the top of the food chain. :( > Free market competition among the "sardines" with no limits and no > safety net and no social/government oversight, on the other hand, may > lead to the sardines trying to eat each other. And many of them > starving in the process. No, I haven't said that much. I say "acrobatics with a safety net." How can you prevent falls? But the coops take care of many of those needs, just not a bureaucrat. These may become those blood-sucking fish on the back of the shark. ;) > That's partly what happened in the British sweatshop industries between > about 1850 and 1900. Partly the sweatshop workers were killing > themselves trying to compete against the factories, but after awhile > they were engaged in ruinous competition against each other. No, you said the guilds were appropriately banned before hand, so they were FEARED COMPETITION to the lion. The coops can indeed compete (Mondragon style) but can have as its purpose QUALITY OF LIFE (kibbutz style), without being a burden. Coops, by definition, are self-sufficient, but can have certain "insurance" among them, to avoid going under. A Ministry of Coops (which already exists in Singapore) can oversee the whole thing. > The market system can be good, within limits, and I think the rightwing > economist Ludwig von Mises has made a pretty good case that in some > applications, the market system is almost inevitable. But if > competition is total free and unrestricted, the "free market" can > promote disaster. Sure, John Nash (the character of "A Beautiful Mind"), a Noble Economic Prize, stated that "Adam Smith was wrong"! "The best result comes from doing the best for one's self and for the group"! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_dixit.html > The medieval guild system offered one way around this problem. The > Yugoslav Communist Party in the Tito years tried another way, by mixing > state ownership of the factories with workers' control and elected > managers with market distribution of goods. The Mondragon cooperatives > may have found another solution. Many ways around it. The issue though is creating the POLITICAL WILL to make it happen. > But the rightwing libertarian idea of "let 'er rip! Compete, and devil > take the hindmost" is not a solution, but a problem. Sure, too much INDIVIDUALISM, mixed with PRIVATE OWNERSHIP and PARANOIA, can lead into disaster. But at least they are honest about it, and can be contained by the pack of sardines working together. Like this... Bite back! The little fish organized in coops can chase away the big fish... http://www.newint.org/issue368/ The Wogster wrote: > What needs to happen is the automobile fall out of fashion, as long as > car companies have multi-billion dollar advertising campaigns, it is > unlikely to happen. Take smoking for example, at one time 75% of the > population smoked (the ones that didn't were too young), a few radicals > bucked the trend when the health issues came to the forefront. Then it > fell out of fashion, now it's getting to the point, where the only place > you can still smoke is in your car..... Exactly right. By extension if you are riding a bicycle to do real things you are nothing. Perhaps a bum, some nut or a loser. If you drive a little car you are some sort of wacko environmentalist. But if you are driving a big fat SUV then you are the King of the Jungle. And that's what it is, a jungle. You are judged by THE SIZE of your vehicle. People is so brainwashed by advertising that the POLLUTING PIG is considered a DIGNIFIED LION. What's worse, driving/riding smaller vehicles or bicycles places you at the bottom of the food chain. To admire the lion because he's a "winner" is to deny yourself you are a gazelle. And THE REVOLUTION of the gazelles is coming soon... ;) The Wogster wrote: > > And that's what it is, a jungle. You are judged by THE SIZE of your > > vehicle. People is so brainwashed by advertising that the POLLUTING PIG > > is considered a DIGNIFIED LION. > > Last I checked, the Lion was a style of cat, and all cats share most > traits, watch a lion through his day, then watch the common house cat, > they are remarkable similar. Yep. Then the question arises: "Who will put the bell on the cat?" > This house has 4 examples of house cat, so I know a lot about how a cat > spends it's day. Hunting 15 minutes, grooming 12 minutes (includes time > spent, trying to con a human into rendering assistance), bathroom 3 > minutes, all other time is spent SLEEPING, The cat has turned lazyness > into an art form..... As I write this, I am sharing a small bag of > Doritos (Nacho cheese) with one of my cats..... The lion doesn't eat doritos though. The Bible says he was a vegetarian, so he should be able to eat, say, a banana. Regrettably, hungry carnivorous lions abound. :( > Something I determined YEARS ago, if a guy drives a BIG car or a BUG SUV > then he is compensating for a lack somewhere else.... Most often this > is self confidence, if your are secure in your own person, and your own > man hood, you don't really care if you do drive a P.O.S. They drive a P.O.S. but bigger. Advertising makes miracles out of gullible people. How can they feel more important and adventorous in an all-automatic, top-of-the-food-chain piece of junk? What it really makes them is a lion. > > What's worse, driving/riding smaller vehicles or bicycles places you at > > the bottom of the food chain. To admire the lion because he's a > > "winner" is to deny yourself you are a gazelle. And THE REVOLUTION of > > the gazelles is coming soon... ;) > > People need to face some facts: > > 1) The most efficient short distance, small load ground transportation > method is the bicycle. > 2) The most efficient long distance heavy load ground transportation > method is the train. Best of all, bicycle and train can be combined. Buy, you know, the lion HATES competition (particularly efficient competition). > The least efficient short distance, small load ground transportation > method is the automobile. Where the shorter the distance and the > smaller the load, the less efficient it is. You know like Bertha who > lives next door, and drives the SUV around the block for more cigarettes. Bertha is an all around loser. Is she fat? > > Well, it doesn't seem to work that good. I'd have to try one myself. > > Check it out... > > > > http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-52599 > > I think as newer materials are developed, that the technology will > improve to the point where it does take over. We have had chain drive > for over 100 years. Serious shaft drive development is more recent.... > I don't know about some of the arguments against it, like gears > wearing out, after all the shaft drive in the typical automobile runs > well over 200,000km as long as it's properly lubricated. Weight is > another issue, I think it's more about distribution then anything else. > You can only compare it, by building two identical bikes where the > only differences being directly because of the drive. As for power > differences, there are too many factors, for example on a motorcycle, is > there less power because of the shaft drive, or because there are other > differences..... > > BMW has been building shaft drive motorcycles for many years, if shaft > drive were really so bad, then they would likely have dropped it by > now...... True. But best of all, there's no excuse to wait for it, since current chained bikes are just fine. >Actually, just quit cross-posting this crap into reeky. He said, crossposting this crap into reeky. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>Actually, just quit cross-posting this crap into reeky. > > He said, crossposting this crap into reeky. This crap reeks! > >>Actually, just quit cross-posting this crap into reeky. > > > > He said, crossposting this crap into reeky. > > > This crap reeks! We all share the SAME ROADS. It really sucks!!! How about different roads for different vehicles, or at least different lanes? Well, think about it. :) >> > I'm sorry to inform you that that's not the way it is in the >jungle. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >And Bill Clinton's father was a drunk and he made to president. So >anyone can make it to president, right? :( Not those who make the wrong choices, like you. >You can have a driveway only in the suburb, and sprawl is THE problem >in America, causing even more need for a car. So you are not part of >the solution but part of the problem. Again, the SOLUTION IS TO HAVE >OPTIONS. You have options, you just refuse to see them. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >> > I'm sorry to inform you that that's not the way it is in the > >jungle. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > You have options, you just refuse to see them. OK, I see you still adhere to the Party Line, so I'll just wrap up THE REVOLUTION and bring it to Haiti or something. They are very enthusiastic about it since they love Freedom, and got nothing to lose anyway, so we can later show you how NICE IS TO HAVE OPTIONS and how the Utopia goes. Keep you posted. ;) >> >> > I'm sorry to inform you that that's not the way it is in the >> >jungle. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >anyway, so we can later show you how NICE IS TO HAVE OPTIONS and how >the Utopia goes. Keep you posted. ;) I can't wait to hear this! You're moving to Haiti? You think predation is bad HERE?? LOLOLOL! SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >OK, I see you still adhere to the Party Line, so I'll just wrap up THE > >REVOLUTION and bring it to Haiti or something. They are very [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You think predation is bad HERE?? > LOLOLOL! Not before THE REVOLUTION though... >> Hogwash, and you know it. >> You have options, you're just bitter that you made poor choices. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Most people don't own driveways. That's higher up in the food chain, >maybe middle class. Ypu continually refer to life as a jungle, and to yourself as easy prey. If you truly see things that way, why do you not learn how to be like those who don't become easy prey? And why aren't you there in the middle class? >However, since you probably live in the suburb (that big waste of >space), it's surprising that you are a lost regarding the "options." We >are prisoners of the car, particularly in the suburb. The MONOPOLISTIC >LION wants it that way. No, I live in Phoenix, and I have a driveway. I've made choices that improved my life. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>* First they came for the righfully parked, >>>and I did not speak out because I had a parking garage. ;) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's mostly when you oppose the lion or are indifferent to it that you > get in trouble. That's where I stand. So, what you're saying, is that your going to be first in line when they fire up the ovens? GREAT! Start today. You won't be missed. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Some people just don't know how to drive. I call these people "Everybody But Me". > So, what you're saying, is that your going to be first in line when they > fire up the ovens? GREAT! Start today. You won't be missed. You don't miss anyone. You ARE the predators. >>So, what you're saying, is that your going to be first in line when > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You don't miss anyone. You ARE the predators. That's me. I read signs and comprehend the meaning and outcome if I choose to ignore them. I understand that to enjoy the convenience of breaking the law, I will pay a penalty and an inconvenience. I point and laugh at stupid sh.ts that can't figure out just how stupid they are. I am a predator. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Don't like my driving? Then quit watching me. >> So, what you're saying, is that your going to be first in line when >they >> fire up the ovens? GREAT! Start today. You won't be missed. > >You don't miss anyone. You ARE the predators. I think the rule of law is probably necessary if there are criminals and idiots and other nonaltruistic people in society. If so, then the laws we make (emphasis _we_, I also voted the lawmakers into office,) apply to all. Monetary fines are a crappy way to coerce compliance to laws, but I don't know of a better way. There are some places where parking should not be allowed. (In front of a firestation driveway, for example.) I hope you agree on that point. If so, then we're only quibbling about _where_ the signs are put, and for what time period. In my town, the traffic engineers are morons. They seem to think that facilitating the safe and efficient flow of traffic is not their job. They just want to put up more stop signs, more red paint, and in general, make it more difficult to get from one place to another. But while you can argue their incompetance, you can't argue their right and obligation to do it, or your responsibility to comply. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer > One last thing - in a mugging the mugger might get arrested but never > the muggee. Tell that to Bernard Geotz. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Save your breath. You'll need it to blow up your date. >>>I believe there's many kinds of terror on the people, some over >>>politics, some over profit. When I wake up to the fact of my car [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > intimidating driving habits of some out there, particularly when using > the overwhelming size of their vehicle). someone who thinks that getting their car towed and impounded is "terrorism" has never really experienced terror. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Help save Social Security, ride with the wind in your hair. "Bownse" SNIP > someone who thinks that getting their car towed > and impounded is "terrorism" has never really > experienced terror. I'd rate being woken up at 2400 with a legitimate SCUD alert as terror. Those damn things are addressed "To whom it may concern". BTDT and between that and a few other things I've mental scar or two. Having a loaded gun pointed at you isn't terrifying (to me) but having something like that on it's way and not knowing WHERE it's going to land... SignatureNefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~ > > > > > Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead? > > > > > Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > the people out of their last penny. 100 bucks for such a slight > violation amounts to TERRORIZING THE PEOPLE FOR PROFIT. I believe the theme song from the old Barretta TV show speaks to this issue. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time..." > 'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History > Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out > by showing a camera crew ride along in a 520 hp RUF Porsche Carerra Turbo that got up to 212 mph. The other vehicles, which > were all going way faster than on an American Interstate, > looked like they were standing still in comparison. Obviously, the situation wasn't safe for the driver going twice as fast as traffic, or for the drivers in the "slower" cars. Shouldn't those drivers have been told to get the heck off the autobahn, because somebody rich and important was coming through? I remember reading an article in Road & Track several years ago. R&T is a magazine that appeals to the rich and arrogant motorist that thinks he should be able to do as he pleases because he has a lot of money to spend. And R&T tends to make people of ordinary sensibilities evolve into arrogant a.sholes too, drivers with fantasies of becoming Formula 1 world champions eat R&T up... But the article was about the latest greatest limited edition twin-turbo Porsche that would go 200 mph on the autobahn. And, R&T, in a rare lucid moment, remarked that the Porsche wasn't hard to drive at all, that it was so stable at speed, somebody's *grandmother* could drive it. R&T went on to say that the grandmother would need some experience with high speed driving in order to *stop* the car, though. She'd also need eyes like an eagle to see emerging traffic situations a mile ahead. That's how long it takes to stop from 200 mph... > Here are some facts I noted: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cars which may be approaching. You must pass with urgency, and > at no time may you linger in the left lane, even for a second. Yes, Germany has been a very authoritarian country to live in since feudal warlords built castles on the Rhine after the break up of Charlemagne's empire. Lesser nobles swore alleigance to more powerful nobles and the peasants doffed their caps and bowed and scraped to all nobility and authority... After the French revolution came the Enlightenment and ordinary people realized they could have independant thought and beliefs. But the Germans had been subservient to nobility for centuries, and even after their own revoultion in the 1840's, the German people were like tigers that had escaped from the zoo and returned to the safety of their own cage. They remained subservient to the nobility and to authority, leading very regulated lives prescribed by law. This strange deference to authority is called "orbrigkeit", and researchers have called the strange social evolution of Germany after its revolution "der deutscher sonderweg". It's Germany's "other way". They do everything a different way from everybody else. Germans also live in Switzerland, as Swiss citizens. People who have observed the German Swiss say that they all behave as though they were cops, watching their neighbors and denouncing them. It's no wonder that Germans treasure their privacy so much. With every one of their neighbors being a snitch, Germans keep their doors closed, and their window shades drawn. > There are absolutely no speed limits on more than half of > the Autobahn (thousands of miles). Most traffic travels > around 110 mph. Sometimes traffic flows at 130 or 140. > Occasionally, faster cars come through. This is not > dangerous because of the aforementioned lane discipline. There is hardly any traffic at all on the autobahn. It's nearly empty. Rich people who drive their big Mercedes Benzes will be familiar with the stretch of autobahn they drive on daily, so they will know when to slow down for the exits, unlike Americans on their highways at home, who find themselves passing the exit they wanted because they are going too fast and are in the wrong lane. And, lane discipline does exist here in America if you pay attention to what's happening. On a four lane freeway, big trucks are restricted to driving only in the righthand two lanes, at 55 MPH. Talk to any trucker, and he will refer to those lanes as "the truck lanes", and he will complain about car drivers passing them at high speed and inserting the car into a small space in front of the truck where the big rig driver can't even see it. These big rigs weigh 80,000 pounds fully loaded. The driver can't *see* the road for 100 feet directly in front of him. It takes *forever* to stop a big rig, and, if the trailer gets out from behind the tractor, the whole rig "jack knifes", it folds up like a pocket knife, and turns over... Would you really want rich, arrogant morons driving high performance cars that they're buying on *credit* passing big rig trucks and swerving in front of them and slowing down? Cheezus, why don't you just give the morons Indy cars and wave the green flag and tell them there's free beer in the next town? > The system works! The rate of fatalities on the German Autobahn > is 0.74 per 100 million miles traveled, compared to 0.86 for > the American Interstate system. The statisticians can point to the numbers, but they can't prove what has influenced the numbers, whether it's "lane discipline" or if it's just the fact that Germans drive a whole lot less on roads that aren't as crowded with traffic... But American roads have lots of motorists that don't think they are born to be cops. To the contrary, they believe that if there is no cop watching them, they should be able to do what they please... And, the Germans have historically shrugged their shoulders and done what unjust laws told them they had to do. The inherent "rightness" of the law was used as a defense by some of the accused at the Nuremberg trials. They said, "It's the law, I had to obey it, or they would have shot me." >>'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History >>Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out [quoted text clipped - 115 lines] > trials. They said, "It's the law, I had to obey it, or they would have > shot me." |---|---|---|---|---|---| 0 ^10 | | Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute <Darth Vader> The Force is strong in this one. </Darth Vader> > > 'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History > > Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > drivers have been told to get the heck off the autobahn, because > somebody rich and important was coming through? (German bashing cut out) It ain't only the Germans who do it right but even the fickle French as the Canadian professional trucker pointed out. Actually it is truckers who mostly obey the laws in North America, and I'm sure our anarchic-chaotic behavior is more than an amusing nuisance to them. Perhaps it is their worst nightmare. >Actually it is truckers who mostly obey the laws in North America, and >I'm sure our anarchic-chaotic behavior is more than an amusing nuisance >to them. Perhaps it is their worst nightmare. In my experience, Truckers are no better at obeying the laws than anyone else. Yes, they do tend to KRETP more often than other drivers, but they negate all that Good Road Karma by Sloth-passing other Truckers at a 0.001 MPH speed differential, whipping out directly in front of faster traffic that is already in the passing lane, refusing to return to the right lane after completing a pass because they see another Trucker on the horizon, and similar offenses. However, you are correct in that Truckers view 4-wheeler drivers with distrust, disdain, and contempt. They assume any 4-wheeler driver is a moron until proven otherwise. They also take the attitude that the 4-wheeler driver is "just on vacation" - not WORKING, like the Truckers are - and the Truckers believe this gives them priority for resources like passing lanes and parking spots at rest areas. This is why a Trucker would rather delay you by 10 minutes than allow himself to be delayed by 10 seconds, and why you see Truckers parked orthogonally along 4-wheeler parking spaces at rest stops late at night. So yes, American roads are a jungle, and Truckers are the 800-pound gorillas. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ > It's no wonder that > Germans treasure their privacy so much. With every one of their > neighbors being a snitch, Germans keep their doors closed, > and their window shades drawn. So it's my maternal, Penn. Deutsch, side of the family that influenced this tendency? I thought perhaps it was the paternal Cherokee influence of putting someone from low population density areas into a city with close neighbors that did it. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "The point of living is not to delay death; it is to celebrate life." - Martin Eden > So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts > flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York > license plates when he finally passes me---in a different lane, I'm NOT > going to move over for him just because he's being an a.shole about his > *imaginary* "rights"... I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their milk money taken by the grade school bully. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment's would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress." - Ronald Reagan > I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are > nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their > milk money taken by the grade school bully. When there aren't enough cops to arrest scofflaws, honest citizens must be vigilant, even if that means resisting psychos on the highway passively or actively... Milk money. That reminds me of my childhood... We didn't have milk money when I was a kid in elementary school. A lot of the kids were violent little Okie monsters that would steal anything not nailed down. So we had no milk money in our pockets. We had to give our milk money to the teacher every Monday morning and she would write out a ticket with our name on it and the lady in the cafeteria would punch our ticket when she gave us our lunch... > > I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are > > nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be vigilant, even if that means resisting psychos on the highway > passively or actively... Cool. So you're advocating that I have the right to PIT you when you fail to follow traffic law (i.e. KRETP.) Why don't you and Scott Weisass get a room and let the adults talk amongst themselves. nate >> > I know someone else like you, too. Self >> > appointed traffic cops are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > right to PIT you when you > fail to follow traffic law (i.e. KRETP.) You can TRY. Last moron that did it almost ate a guard rail...not my problem if they can't drive for sh.t. > Why don't you and Scott Weisass get a room and > let the adults talk > amongst themselves. Junior, you aren't mature enough to even be in the discussion so go home to your federally mandated nanny and suck on the government teat like a good serf. SignatureNefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~ >>>>I know someone else like you, too. Self >>>>appointed traffic cops are [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > guard rail...not my problem if they can't drive > for sh.t. I didn't say I was going to do it, I was merely pointing out that by your argument (fight lawlessness by whatever means necessary) that that would be an appropriate response to your illegal driving. But I wouldn't want to scratch my bumper, you know. My actual response is likely to be to get around your LLBing a.s at the first possible opportunity, even if I have to cut within inches of your front bumper. (hey, if I have to get too close to someone, better the a.shole than the person driving correctly in the slow lane.) And in any case I'd be willing to bet that my ability to properly PIT you is far better than your ability to cause me any inconvenience, especially since you've already proven that you have no f.cking clue how to drive correctly. >>Why don't you and Scott Weisass get a room and >>let the adults talk [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > nanny and suck on the government teat like a good > serf. Ooh, more Usenet dick waving. $20 says that you are the loser that you accuse others of being and that this big man act is just your pathetic Usenet persona to compensate for your RL shortcomings. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are >>nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > out a ticket with our name on it and the lady in the cafeteria would > punch our ticket when she gave us our lunch... I bet you got your ticket punched several different ways. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "2001: A Space Iliad" -- The Hal 9000 computer wages an insane 10-year war against the Greeks after falling victim to the Y2K bug. - Joseph Romm >> So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts >> flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their milk money >taken by the grade school bully. Right, unlike the REAL traffic cops -- who were the bullies in question. SignatureThere's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one. >So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts >flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York >license plates when he finally passes me---in a different lane, I'm NOT >going to move over for him just because he's being an a.shole about his >*imaginary* "rights"... Talk about being an a.shole over imaginary rights... Let me guess. When you're walking on a crowded sidewalk, and someone comes up behind you and says, "Excuse me, may I get by?," you say, "Screw you, I'm walking here. I don't have to get out of your way, and I won't!" SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >>So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts >>flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >"Screw you, I'm walking here. I don't have to get out of your way, and >I won't!" Naw, Tarsier doesn't say anything at all - he just turns around and quickly sucker-punches them in the stomach. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ > >So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts > >flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Screw you, I'm walking here. I don't have to get out of your way, and > I won't!" I don't think you should bother to say "screw you." Just turn around and shoot! > And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic > roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on top [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think kids can come up with a better system than that. But lawyers > and bureaucrats can't. :( "Road Rage" is bullox fabricated by out of work psychologists who wanted some TV face time. It's an excuse for people to be rude. Rudeness exists. Road rage doesn't except in the minds of the media and those who hand on their every word. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "As usual, no warranty, including fitness for a particular purpose or usefulness of information, express or implied. This product not tested on animals, college students are cheaper and nobody cares what you do to them, professional driver, closed course, optional equipment shown, serving suggestion, do not apply to broken skin, if condition persists, consult a physician, not for internal use only, tax, tag, license fee extra, prices slightly higher in ak, hi, and pr, void where prohibited, must be 18 to enter, must be present to win, don't put that in your mouth, you don't know where it's been, call your mother, she worries, do not taunt happy fun ball, do not look into laser with remaining eye, don't thank me, I'm here to help." - Steve Bream > > And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic > > roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on top [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > exists. Road rage doesn't except in the minds of the media and those who > hand on their every word. Lack of lane discipline results in road rage, and it results in accidents, and they in turn feed the monster. Of course, you can hire a lawyer who will make sure the money doesn't go wasted by keeping a large chunk of it. ;) AUTO ACCIDENTS IN FLORIDA By Anthony J. Comparetto, Esq. I will never forget this eye opening story about how the auto accident system worked. _I call it a system because it really has become "big business"_ A friend of mine, who lived in another part of the state, was injured in a car accident. He believed he had done everything correct in his case. He had hired a competent attorney, seen the right doctors to treat him and notified his insurance company correctly. He thought everything would go smoothly. Of course when he called for my opinion I had to tell him the first secret of auto accidents in Florida. http://www.helpwithlaw.com/autoaccidents.htm >>>And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic >>>roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > http://www.helpwithlaw.com/autoaccidents.htm So you make a living off of the perpetuation of the "Road Rage" myth? Got it. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Try not to let your mind wander. It's too small and fragile to be out by itself. >Scott en Aztlán wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is >the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth. Wrong. Those signs that say "SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT" are not just suggestions: "CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway." "Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits" means that even if you are going 10mph _over_ the speed limit, if surrounding traffic is going 15 over, you must move to the right. FWIW, the search took about 3 minutes to find the relevant section. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer > "CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any > vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FWIW, the search took about 3 minutes to find the relevant section. Maybe it's difficult to understand to the dim wits. It should say: "a.sholes keep right!" > "CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any > vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an > intersection or into a private road or driveway." Pay attention, now, sonny. That section is obviously talking about a *highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction. It's not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, where most morons think the leftmost lane is some sort of "passing lane" or "fast lane" and do all the highbeam flashing and psycho posturing that weirdos do on the freeway... If the highway has only one lane in each direction, the slower motorist has to move over as far to the right as possible to let law-abiding traffic go by, the slow driver can't be sightseeing or birdwatching or cruising for hookers on the side of the road, he has to keep up to a reasonable speed that other law-abiding motorists would drive at... If the *highway* in question is a 4-lane, non-access controlled highway, the overtaking driver can pass on the left or right side, when the safe opportunity presents itself, so the overtaken driver shouldn't have to do anything, unless he's afraid the drooling idiot behind him flashing his lights has a gun or some other weapon... The jerkoffs that come charging up behind law-abiding drivers and flash their lights expecting everybody to get out of their way because they are "coming through" are usually doing this illegal stuff on California *freeways*, though... And then there is a key phrase in the section. "The normal speed of traffic" doesn't refer to a daisy chain of aggressive morons bent on psyching out the cars ahead of them. "Normal speed" doesn't include any speed in excess of the maximum speed limit. If there is so much traffic every day during rush hour that the normal speed of traffic drops down to 25 mph, the section you cited also means that a motorist can't drive at 25 mph on a day when traffic *isn't* heavy, he has to drive what the rest of the drivers want to drive, unless they want to exceed the maximum speed limit. But then he still doesn't have to move over for a.sholes when there are multiple lanes of traffic in both directions... (Not withstanding that last remark about tailgating a.sholes, if you talk to a cop about what you should do when some nutcase starts tailgating you and flashing his lights, the cop will probably tell you that you *should* move over for the crazy guy and let him go by. Cops are basically lazy, they don't want to have to write reports about incidents of road rage, they don't want to have to respond to crime scenes or the scenes of accident where some innocent law abiding citizen gets killed by a speeding psycho.) If you get caught driving in a wolf pack of excessive speeders and the highway patrolman feels like pulling over the whole pack and spending an hour writing every one of the idiots a citation, he'll do that. And when those turkeys get into court and try to tell the judge that they were just "keeping up with the flow of traffic", the judge will tell them that they cannot decide, individually, or as a group, to drive faster than the maximum speed limit, or the prima facie speed limit if weather or road conditions indicate the need to drive slower than the maximum permissable speed... > "Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits" means that even > if you are going 10mph _over_ the speed limit, if > surrounding traffic is going 15 over, you must move to the right. NO, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AT ALL!. It means that if you are on a highway and you're surrounded by a dense fog bank (or whatever) and you think it's only safe to drive at X miles per hour (but that speed is slower than the maximum speed limit) and the dipshits around you think they can drive at the maximum speed limit or faster (like they do when the cops aren't watching), then you should get over and let the fools go by! And let the cops and the ambulances and the tow trucks pick up the pieces down the road... > FWIW, the search took about 3 minutes to find the relevant section. Yabbot, it took me 20 minutes to interpret it for you, and you need to study it. Maybe tattoo it on your hand so you can look at it while you're pulling your pud, you silly w.nker! > Pay attention, now, sonny. That section is obviously talking about > a *highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction. > It's not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, where > most morons think the leftmost lane is some sort of "passing lane" The left lane IS the passing lane and in many states you can be cited for being in the left lane when not passing another vehicle. >> "CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any >> vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Pay attention, now, sonny. Ah, yes. The blood pressure mounts, the veins start to swell, and the ad hominems begin. FWIW, I'm 57 years old and have been driving on California roads since 1964. I've been studying the CA CVC longer than that. But your tendency to ramble on into irrelevance, combined with your myopic arrogance means you probably _are_ old enough to be my father, in which case your driving days are about over, thank God. >That section is obviously talking about a >*highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction. It's >not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, where most morons >think the leftmost lane is some sort of "passing lane" or "fast lane" >and do all the highbeam flashing and psycho posturing that weirdos do >on the freeway... So, gramps, since you're such an expert on the CVC, can you show us anywhere it makes that distinction in respect to this section? And not just another of your absurd interpretations, ignorantly pontificated. Just in case you're having a little trouble finding your bifocals, I'll help . Here is a section that says a freeway _is_ a highway: 332. "Freeway" is a highway in respect to which the owners of abutting lands have no right or easement of access to or from their abutting lands or in respect to which such owners have only limited or restricted right or easement of access. And here is one place where the DMV says the left lane is the fast lane: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs60thru61.htm "DEALING WITH ROAD RAGE Road rage happens when one driver reacts angrily to another driver. Some suggestions for avoiding road rage situations are: * Dont drive slowly in the left (fast) lane." >If the highway has only one lane in each direction, the slower motorist >has to move over as far to the right as possible to let law-abiding [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >scenes or the scenes of accident where some innocent law abiding >citizen gets killed by a speeding psycho.) Ah, but you don't need to pay attention to cops, eh, gramps? You're smarter and know more about the law than they do, right? >If you get caught driving in a wolf pack of excessive speeders and the >highway patrolman feels like pulling over the whole pack and spending [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >NO, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AT ALL!. Since you don't believe me, why don't you ask the people whose job it is to interpret the code? Go ask a traffic judge. But you probably know more than they do, anyway. You can just tell them what the law means. heh >It means that if you are on a highway >and you're surrounded by a dense fog bank (or whatever) and you think [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >study it. Maybe tattoo it on your hand so you can look at it while >you're pulling your pud, you silly w.nker! moron psycho posturing that weirdo drooling idiot j.rkoff aggressive moron a.shole turkey fool silly w.nker Yeah. Let it all hang out. C'mon, you can use more epithets than that. Let's see some real profanity. But just remember, it says more about you than anything else. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer > Ah, yes. The blood pressure mounts, the veins start to swell, > and the ad hominems begin. FWIW, I'm 57 years old and have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > arrogance means you probably _are_ old enough to be my > father, in which case your driving days are about over, thank God. So. What you're saying is, "Are you my daddy?" Sorry, but I'm not *that* old. I've been driving safely on California roads for 45 years and have never wrecked a car, been arrested for drunk driving, had an accident where somebody was killed or injured. And I have never been stopped for driving too slow. The only problems I've ever had with driving too fast was during the 55-mph national speed limit era... I figure on driving for at least 15 more years, I will decide when to stop when I think I might be a hazard to the public... So far as studying the CVC is concerned, I would think that you would *understand* it after all these years ;-) > So, gramps, since you're such an expert on the CVC, can you show us > anywhere it makes that distinction in respect to this section? And > not just another of your absurd interpretations, ignorantly > pontificated. The sections in the CVC are like verses in the Bible. If you take them out of context, you can appear to prove anything you want... > Just in case you're having a little trouble finding your bifocals, > I'll help . Here is a section that says a freeway _is_ a highway: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > abutting lands or in respect to which such owners have > only limited or restricted right or easement of access. OK, and you can pass on the right or the left on a freeway, so you don't have to get over to the right for every nutcase that charges up on your rear bumper... > And here is one place where the DMV says the left lane is the fast > lane: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs60thru61.htm > "DEALING WITH ROAD RAGE > Road rage happens when one driver reacts angrily to another driver. > Some suggestions for avoiding road rage situations are: > * Don't drive slowly in the left (fast) lane." Obviously, the DMV is talking down to the brain dead drivers who think the left lane is the "fast lane". The DMV wants those morons to know what they are talking about, since they imagine that the left lane is some sort of race track... I was never saying that it was OK to drive slowly in the left lane on a highway or a freeway. I was saying that the a.shole who comes up behind a law-abiding driver proceeding at the legal speed limit or the prima facie speed limit is wrong, and the exception that would require the law-abiding driver to move to the right is when the a.shole drivers are ignoring the prima facie speed limit... > Ah, but you don't need to pay attention to cops, eh, gramps? You're > smarter and know more about the law than they do, right? Cops usually know quite a bit about the law, but they can't memorize all the sections. They just use the same ones over and over to make a living off the public. I haven't had a speeding ticket in my car or in my truck in 25 years. They do go after motorcycles and sportscars though, so I've gotten a few for that reason. > Since you don't believe me, why don't you ask the people whose > job it is to interpret the code? Go ask a traffic judge. But > you probably know more than they do, anyway. You can just > tell them what the law means. heh The men in black robes on the bench in traffic court are often commissioners learning the ropes of being judges so the real judges can be freed up to sit on criminal cases. And the commissioners don't always know the law that well... I had an LAPD ossifer write me a ticket for violating the speed limit when the sign in question was an advisory sign saying to slow from the 30 MPH limit to 15 mph at a corner. The ossifer's trainee had to explain to the ossifer training him that the sign was only advisory... And the ossifer made some errors on the citation, he actually overwrote the speed I was going, he wasn't sure, because he didn't *know* how fast I was going... So I took it all to a "mini-trial" where the commissioner said that he wasn't all that familar with traffic law, but he was going to convict me of speeding and let my bail stand as the fine. What an a.shole. It cost me $150 to ride a motorcycle around the same corner at 30 mph that I had ridden around for 30 years, just because I was seen riding the motorcycle instead of driving my car... >> Ah, yes. The blood pressure mounts, the veins start to swell, >> and the ad hominems begin. FWIW, I'm 57 years old and have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >So. What you're saying is, "Are you my daddy?" Sorry, but I'm not >*that* old. IOW, when you called me "Sonny," it was just another in a long line of fallacious claims. >I've been driving safely on California roads for 45 years >and have never wrecked a car, been arrested for drunk driving, had an [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >The sections in the CVC are like verses in the Bible. If you take them >out of context, you can appear to prove anything you want... Apparently not, since you can't seem to quote anything to support your vacuous assertions. But perhaps you're right. After all, those citations that cops write only list the section number of the violation, and they seem to do the trick. >> Just in case you're having a little trouble finding your bifocals, >> I'll help . Here is a section that says a freeway _is_ a highway: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >what they are talking about, since they imagine that the left lane is >some sort of race track... Yeah. The DMV is always writing stuff that isn't true. Darn them. >I was never saying that it was OK to drive slowly in the left lane on a >highway or a freeway. I was saying that the a.shole who comes up behind [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >I had ridden around for 30 years, just because I was seen riding the >motorcycle instead of driving my car... Did you a lot of good arguing with him, too, eh? Just imagine how much better this world would be if we all just bowed down to your omniscience. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >> 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any >> vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an >> intersection or into a private road or driveway." > Pay attention, now, sonny. That section is obviously talking about a > *highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction. It's > not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, In legalize, ALL public roads are highways; so you're right, this law applies to ALL public roads, not just specifically freeways. Thank you for that admission. Unfortunately, that law applies only if you're moving less than the normal (majority) speed of traffic, but see below. > If the *highway* in question is a 4-lane, non-access controlled > highway, the overtaking driver can pass on the left or right side, > when the safe opportunity presents itself, so the overtaken driver > shouldn't have to do anything, unless he's afraid the drooling idiot > behind him flashing his lights has a gun or some other weapon... Here's the disproof, also from the California Vehicle Code: 21755. The driver of a motor vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. In no event shall such movement be made by driving off the paved or main-traveled portion of the roadway. and 21753. Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass. So whenever a safe opportunity to pass you has NOT presented itself, 21755 prohibits passing on the right, thereby activating 21753 and REQUIRING YOU TO CREATE THAT OPPORTUNITY. Q.E.D. > Scott en Aztlán wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > It's because he's retarded... |---|---|---|---|---|---| 0 ^ 10 | | Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute > > Scott en Aztlán wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute I gave it a perfect 10. Unless he's one of those real sociopath we see on the road all the time. >>|---|---|---|---|---|---| >>0 ^ 10 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I gave it a perfect 10. Unless he's one of those real sociopath we see > on the road all the time. I didn't, and it's a good thing. In his subsequent post, he threw in some German bashing, some American bashing, some class bashing, some stinky bait WRT Road & Track. All in all, a much better troll. >> |---|---|---|---|---|---| >> 0 ^ 10 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I gave it a perfect 10. Unless he's one of those real sociopath we see >on the road all the time. Unfortunately, I think he's for real. There are plenty of them out there. Some of them must have access to a computer. SignatureTurby the Turbosurfer >Scott en Aztlán wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote. Leading off with an Ad Hominem? I guess I know where this is going... >It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Keep Right Except to Pass and Slower Traffic Keep Right MAKE it my business. As for the rest of your post, I won't bother to respond to it since I didn't bother to read it. It's obviously going to be more of the same mindless blather and personal insults that you led off with, so I cut my losses and moved on to the next post. Drive safe now! :) SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ > Scott en Aztlán wrote: >> If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane, >> then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business, >> as well. > Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote. > > It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. It sure is if they block him, you moron. > Read > your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few interesting > things. Including many that have no moral validity. FOAD. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed > limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is > permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > It's because he's retarded... > So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when > they're driving along minding their own business. You've misplet "not paying attention." >>>>I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when > they're driving along minding their own business. If you're driving in the left lane at slower than the speed limit with the right lane open, you deserve to have the sh.t scared out of you, not just snot. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when > > they're driving along minding their own business. > > If you're driving in the left lane at slower than the speed limit with > the right lane open, you deserve to have the sh.t scared out of you, not > just snot. Even if you drive AT the speed limit you deserve ANY road rage you receive. Though we may remember that the system puts out these a.sholes so they go out there and burn gas, tires and pay insurance. And America ain't alone in the lack of lane discipline, nor is the German Autobahn the only model... (The Private Motor Truck Council of Canada is the only national association dedicated to the private trucking community. This column presents opinions on trucking issues from the perspective of private carriers. Your comments are invited and can be addressed to trucks@pmtc.ca) WE SHOULD LISTEN TO THE VOICE OF EXPERIENCE A wide variety of problems on our highways contribute to making driving a difficult and patience-trying endeavour on most days. And for the professionals who make a living behind the wheel, those problems can even make for a hard day's work. Overcrowding of our road system, the poor condition of major highways, and plain bad manners top my list of grievances. Recently I had the opportunity to drive on some highways in France and couldn't help but notice remarkable differences in 'highway manners' when compared to those of North American drivers. One of the first things a person will notice is that on many stretches, the speed limit on French highways is 130 km/hr. The most common speed limit on similar highways in Canada is 100 km/hr, with the occasional route at 110 km/hr. It took some adjusting for me to get comfortable with the 130 km/hr limit, but not as much as one might have thought. Before long I was keeping pace with the locals, and while moving along with the traffic it was easy to observe some clear differences in driving habits when compared to North American drivers, and to witness how well the practice of sharing the road can work. One such difference is the way in which drivers observe what Canadian officials term "lane discipline". On the French highways the outside lane is used for passing, not for hanging around. While I was pushing my little rented Citroën along in an inside lane I was regularly overtaken by larger, faster cars, all of which promptly moved back to the inside lane once they were safely around me, leaving the outside lane for the next vehicle that wanted to move faster than the crowd. A couple of years ago I participated on a road safety committee organized by Ontario's then Minister of Transportation. There were a number of associations and other safety and enforcement personnel on the committee and we were charged with exploring ways in which Ontario's roads could be made safer and to make specific recommendations to the Minister. I recall some senior enforcement officers on the committee voicing their concern with the lack of lane discipline on Ontario's highways. They described it as a principal cause of aggressive driving and road rage, and urged us to raise the visibility of lane discipline as a safety issue in our recommendations. The officers felt that an educational program that would explain proper lane usage could prove to be an enormous benefit. Drivers camped out in the passing lane, or in some cases in the middle lane, routinely clog up the highways, leading to frustration on the part of other drivers and in some cases to those frustrated drivers taking risks that lead to accidents and fatalities. The officers on that committee lauded the European model of lane discipline and advocated a campaign to convert our drivers to that model. Unfortunately the recommendation was never acted on and we still deal with problem drivers who will not yield the passing lane. I confess that at the time I didn't see the problem as being quite as serious as the officials described. Sure, I had experienced being held up by someone who wouldn't move over and was impeding my trip to wherever, but it seemed more of a minor and temporary inconvenience than anything else. But now, having reviewed in my mind the comments and recommendations made by those enforcement officials, and having witnessed first hand how well lane discipline works, I'm more inclined to agree with them. This is a subject that is well worth the attention of Transportation Ministers across the Country. A rather funny look at the problem.., Road Warriors Lying with statistics to bolster your position Orange alert: American drivers are demented, speed-crazed, food-swilling, cellphone-gabbing, lane-jumping, road-raging sociopaths. Forget those Middle Eastern loonies; you face a greater threat from the guy next to you on the freeway in that Chevy Malibu. Any moment now he's likely to punch the throttle, take a bite of an unwrapped Twinkie, hit some numbers on his Nokia, toss you the bird and bunt you into the tall grass. As if you didn't think driving is dangerous enough, now we get word from the American Automobile Association and other safety groups that a poll they recently conducted affirms our fears. Seizing on the confessions of motorists, the survey indicates that more than 70% admitted they drove over the posted limits (a ludicrous figure; I'm betting it's closer to 98%); 59% noshed while driving; 37% used a cellphone; 28% scorned seat belts; 26% didn't bother with turn signals; and 14% engaged in light reading while at the wheel. Couple these amazing mea culpas with endless revelations about road rage (which includes the mini-culpa of running yellow lights) and it would seem that our highways have become scenes of driving stunts and demolition derby antics that make "2Fast and 2Furious" look like a pastoral snooze. Now comes word via hysterical headline writers and newscasters that traffic deaths last year were the highest since 1990. In 2002, 42,850 people died on our roads and byways, an increase of 634 victims over 2001. On the surface, this frightful toll ought to prompt citizens to suit up like Nascar drivers and cower in the slow lane. But let us pause to calm our palpitations. For openers, the road-death rate remains constant at 1.51 deaths per hundred million miles driven. That is a hundred million miles between each traffic death. Moreover, the toll includes jaywalkers, motorcyclists, bike riders, truckers and farm-implement drivers. Many of the victims were drunk or drug-impaired (although statistics are murky). Many were very young (16-18) or very old (75+) and no one has any idea how many were suicides. Add to that the fact that while 634 more people died in 2002, the public rolled out 48 billion more miles -- many of which took place in rain, fog, blizzards and other meteorological delights. Toss out the heavy breathing by the safety lobby and the ambulance chasers and legalized bunko artists who profited mightily in such alleged disasters as the Audi 5000 "unintended acceleration" and the Ford-Firestone rollovers (both of which involved egregious driver errors) and we have a non-issue here. To be sure, the loss of 42,000 citizens is a tragedy, but considering the masses of kinetic energy and tonnage unleashed on the highways each day by more than 200 million motor vehicles, we're dealing with a miracle that the number is so low. Yes, Americans may abuse laws of common sense at the wheel, but their ability to navigate between pillar and post without crashing ought to be lauded, not criticized. Driving or riding in a modern, well-maintained car with seat belts hooked, minus drugs and alcohol, paying attention to the driving environment and employing a modicum of courtesy, your chances of arriving safely are better than navigating your bathtub. "Can you hear me now?" Mr. Yates is editor at large of Car and Driver magazine. > amazing mea culpas with endless revelations about road rage (which > includes the mini-culpa of running yellow lights) See... fabrications! Just the one statement alone negates the entire rest of the content. How can you "run" a yellow light when their use is clearly defined in the DPS manual as "slow and prepare to stop". You can run a red light (which means stop) but proceeding through an intersection on yellow is well within the guidelines of the statutes. Once again, trumped up allegations to support the fiction known as "road rage". SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." --Bertrand de Jouvenel > > amazing mea culpas with endless revelations about road rage (which > > includes the mini-culpa of running yellow lights) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Once again, trumped up allegations to support the fiction known as "road > rage". Depends on the state you are in. In Oregon, from ORS 811.260: 811.260 Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices. This section establishes appropriate driver responses to specific traffic control devices for purposes of ORS 811.265. Authority to place traffic control devices is established under ORS 810.210. Except when acting under the direction of a police officer that contradicts this section, a driver is in violation of ORS 811.265 if the driver makes a response to traffic control devices that is not permitted under the following: ... (3) Steady circular yellow signal. A driver facing a steady circular yellow signal light is thereby warned that the related right of way is being terminated and that a red or flashing red light will be shown immediately. A driver facing the light shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, shall stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, then before entering the intersection. If a driver cannot stop in safety, the driver may drive cautiously through the intersection. ... 811.265 Failure to obey traffic control device; penalty. ... --Andy -------------------------------------------------- Andrew G. Tompkins Software Engineer Beaverton, OR http://home.comcast.net/~andytom/Highways -------------------------------------------------- >>>amazing mea culpas with endless revelations about road rage (which >>>includes the mini-culpa of running yellow lights) [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > --Andy Exactly my point. Someone came off ranting that continuing through a yellow was a sign of "road rage" when, even in your case, it's clearly authorized in certain circumstances. While, in other jurisdictions, the DPS states that it's a warning (like a yield sign) where you slow and are prepared to stop (in the event the light turns to red). I've noticed a lot of people proclaim all jurisdictions to be like theirs. Like the other thread about speeding tickets having to have the exact amount of speeding to be correct for them to hold up in court. Different jurisdictions deal with various issues different ways. Yellow lights is one. "Speeding" vs "75 in a 70" is another. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck. >>> I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane >>> because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. I don't. I expect an idiot driver to be an idiot in many other aspects of their lives, including regard for the welfare of others. I really don't want to experience a cager brake-check while right off their bumper. Instead, I try to accept that, human nature being what it is, a cager will attempt to foil any attempt to get by him and proceed with life. That's why human nature is so much fun when I'm on a motorcycle. That BDC that hangs out in the left lane, only speeding up when a passing opportunity presents itself to his right, is well-schooled when he finds that motorcycle that had been held up behind him suddenly in front of him in the blink of an eye. I believe with the right scientific instrumentation, you could actually measure the cager's member shrinkage as you disappear ahead. >>> I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane >>> because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. Tried that many times. There are people (in many states) that have appointed themselves as protectors of the white rectangle (speed limit sign). The set up these rolling road block at exactly the posted limit and proclaim, "NONE SHALL PASS", as if they were a quadriplegic Black Knight. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other." - Ronald Reagan >>>> I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to >>>> change to the right lane because some a.shole [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > SHALL PASS", as if they were a quadriplegic > Black Knight. Oh THOSE people...I pass them in such a manner that they buy new underwear. 8^) SignatureNefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~ >>>>>I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to >>>>>change to the right lane because some a.shole [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Oh THOSE people...I pass them in such a manner > that they buy new underwear. 8^) I'm sayin'! When it's possible. Sometimes it's not (at least right away). Which is a good reason to support lane splitting BTW. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime, the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." ~ Robert Heinlein OK, let's talk about the SOLUTION. I start... -A system similar to the Autobahn. Unrestricted speed in safe areas. Bring experts from there -Tougher licensing, including special status for lerner (L) -Lane discipline enforced -Bigger vehicles require special license or pay more for tickets or both -Minimum speed enforced on highways -No cell phone, makeup, coffee or newspaper ;) -Signal lights mandatory THE AUTOBAHN (very interesting) TRAFFIC REGULATIONS To safely facilitate heavy, high-speed traffic, special laws apply when driving on the Autobahn: -Vehicles with a maximum speed rating of less than 60 km/h (36 mph) are prohibited as are bicycles, mopeds, and pedestrians. -PASSING ON THE RIGHT IS PROHIBITED! Slower vehicles must move to the right to allow faster traffic to pass, and drivers should stay in the right lane except to pass. When passing, you must do so as quickly as possible. -Stopping, parking, U-turns, and reverse travel are prohibited, including on shoulders and ramps (except for emergencies, of course.) -Entering and exiting is permitted only at interchanges. -During traffic jams, motorists must leave an emergency lane between the left lane and the adjacent center or right lane for emergency vehicles. This is accomplished by traffic in the left lane moving as far to the left as possible and traffic in the adjacent lane moving as far to the right as possible. -If you have a breakdown or accident, you must move to the shoulder if possible and place a warning triangle 200 meters behind the scene. You must report the incident to the authorities using the nearest emergency phone (see below.) -It is illegal to run out of gas on the Autobahn. There are no tolls to use the Autobahn. It is one of the few free superhighway systems in Europe. There was some talk a few years ago of charging an annual fee (like Switzerland), but that hasn't materialized. Driving customs: -Motorists at the rear of a traffic jam will usually switch on their hazard blinkers to warn approaching traffic. -Although it's illegal, other drivers may flash their high beams at you or use their left turn signal to request that you move to the right to let them pass. -Even though the "drive right, pass left" rule is generally adhered to, you may find some cases where motorists will stay in the left or center lane when passing even though the vehicles they're passing are somewhat widely spaced. CONSTRUCTION & CLOSURES (very nice!) In the event that a segment of Autobahn must be closed due to an accident or other emergency, pre-posted detours are ready to guide traffic around the closure. When you exit the Autobahn, start following the * signs. Each exit has a numbered detour route that will take you to the next entrance. If that entrance is also closed, follow the next sequential detour number to reach the next entrance after that (odd numbers head in one direction, even numbers in the opposite direction.) You can also use these detours as an optional route to bypass congestion. http://home.att.net/~texhwyman/autobahn.htm Unlimited speeds are no longer the norm on the autobauhn. sadly a report from a coworker with very recent exposure says that most of it's a lot like in the US now. Left lane hogs and all. > OK, let's talk about the SOLUTION. I start... > [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > http://home.att.net/~texhwyman/autobahn.htm SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years and we're not using it anymore." > Unlimited speeds are no longer the norm on the autobauhn. sadly a report > from a coworker with very recent exposure says that most of it's a lot > like in the US now. Left lane hogs and all. I doubt it got that bad (for one they are well trained), but we can hope to hear from some recent visitor. Anyway, we can make it work good if we want. Pennsylvania passed a law a few years ago that makes it a violation to drive in the left most lane. Unless your are overtaking another vehicle, it will cost you $136 to drive in the left lane with a cop around. ;) mike hunt > Unlimited speeds are no longer the norm on the autobauhn. sadly a report > from a coworker with very recent exposure says that most of it's a lot > like in the US now. Left lane hogs and all. MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: > Pennsylvania passed a law a few years ago that makes it a > violation to drive in the left most lane. Unless your are > overtaking another vehicle, it will cost you $136 to drive in the > left lane with a cop around. ;) You should go all the way and consider secession... ;) more scary stories 'I am driving down the US 60 bypass going to work. It's a 4 lane road with very light traffic at the time. In a 55 mph zone, I am in the left lane behind a lady in a Jeep Liberty who thinks that the rain is a reason to go 40 mph in the left lane with no traffic in the right lane. OK, so I signal and change lanes to the right lane and pass her accelerating to 55 mph. As I am passing her, I hear her horn blaring and when I pass her she flashes her bright lights at me several times and keeps honking. Why do people insist on blocking traffic in the left lane? Are they just $%^&ing stupid? I'm not a fan of passing on the right, but I am less of a fan of going 40 mph down the highway behind somebody in the left lane. I just wish these drivers didn't pee me off - it's like they "win" by making me angry. Time for me to go meditate on the insignificance of traffic.' http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=3 My own scary story... I'm coming north on A1A between Key Largo and Homestead, a long one lane road with two spots with double lane for passing. The first spot, the lady takes the left lane next to another vehicle, so she blocks me "for the hell of it." Second spot, guess... yep, same sh.t. I don't think even meditation can help my rage. The hand grenade looks tempting... It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the right turn on your right turn signal, pass on the right and be on your way. When they block both lanes as you say, there is not much you can do except back off and watch your mirrors so you don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass. Getting riled up, will not help ;) mike hunt > MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: > > Pennsylvania passed a law a few years ago that makes it a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > think even meditation can help my rage. The hand grenade looks > tempting... > >> I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane > >> because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. You must have a mean face, 'cause it doesn't work for me. >>>>I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > You must have a mean face, 'cause it doesn't work for me. http://odinn-frigga.tripod.com/me.jpg Hair is a little shorter now, but that's me. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately. SignatureTim Exit 4, NH 101 Some irony doesn't hurt... "the USA is a model in how you can: talk on the cellphone, be on the internet, shave, put on makeup, change your clothes, drink beer, eat, drink, watch DVD's, listen to radios, read a navigations system, read a book, beat your kids in the back seat, go 45 mph in the passing lane, wax about how you as a driver have rights to be in any damn place one wants, cause an accident and then successfully sue the REAL victim." http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef08fa1/4252 >>Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. > > Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately. Good, then you'll be the one who gets a good game of bumper tag going. I love watching idiots gets spun off into the median. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply >>> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>> and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Good, then you'll be the one who gets a good game of bumper tag going. I > love watching idiots gets spun off into the median. The PIT maneuver, my favorite! > >>Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > >>and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Good, then you'll be the one who gets a good game of bumper tag going. > I love watching idiots gets spun off into the median. And here I thought it was only idiots who speed and cause accidents. Thanks for the proof! SignatureTim Exit 4, NH 101 >>>>Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>>>and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > And here I thought it was only idiots who speed and cause accidents. Thanks > for the proof! Ahh, was that you I punted this afternoon? Poor thing, that piece of crap Honda was such a rust bucket too. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. > > Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately. See how well that all works out? When someone reacts as you describe, I merely drive around them on the shoulder, or an exit ramp, or a turn lane, or on the median, or in an oncoming traffic lane, then merge smoothly back in front of them, then apply my own brakes, slowing almost to a stop (changing lanes as necessary to stay in front of them, of course, if they attempt to go around me) and then accelerate away at a rate that they are unable to match. And everybody is HAPPY! Tim > > > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper > > > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > necessary to stay in front of them, of course, if they attempt to go around me) > and then accelerate away at a rate that they are unable to match. If you're in such a big a.s hurry to get where you're going, why do you suddenly have time to slow down and play games in front of me? It just proves you have no good reason to get around me in the first place. SignatureTim Exit 4, NH 101 >> > > Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >> > > and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >If you're in such a big a.s hurry to get where you're going, why do you >suddenly have time to slow down and play games in front of me? When something is important, you MAKE the time. :) SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I >> ride right on their bumper [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Those are the tactics that make me slow down > almost immediately. AH! Your the a.shole that lost a mirror? Haven't seen you since you tried that sh.t in Texas...only I wasn't tailgating and yes the high beams were on. Tough sh.t douche' bag...cagers are only useful as organ donors. >>Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. > > Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately. Try that on Atlanta I285. Lane disciple is strictly enforced by the drivers. It's posted at 55mph, but cops don't touch anyone because of the snarls it would cause. Instead each lane is assigned an unwritten speed range that locals know and understand. From left to right (lane 1 through 4 irrc), you have: The Wall Lane (lane 1): 85 and up (better be going 90 or better) Lane 2: 75 to 85 Lane 3: 65 to 75 Lane 4: 55 to 65 (entry/exit to interstate) Break these rules and you WILL be taught them by your fellow drivers. We had one guy come back from a long assignment to Atlanta whining about how he was going 75 in the Wall Lane and someone came up from behind and started pushing him. DUH! He was impeding traffic by at least 15 mph. On top of that everyone tailgates. I mean REALLY tailgates. Everyone's 6 inches off the bumper of the car in front of them. Doing 90 I was passed by a lady in a while SUV one lane to me left while the other motorcyclist I was with, in that left-most lane had the lady 6" off his bumper. Quite exhilarating once you understand the rules. And NO ONE is distracted with cell phones, or kids, or DVDs, or books, or... DRIVING is job #1! SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment's would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress." - Ronald Reagan > > Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately. > > Try that on Atlanta I285. Lane disciple is strictly enforced by the > drivers. It's posted at 55mph, but cops don't touch anyone because of > the snarls it would cause. Instead each lane is assigned an unwritten > speed range that locals know and understand. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lane 3: 65 to 75 > Lane 4: 55 to 65 (entry/exit to interstate) So lane discipline can indeed be learned by American drivers. They even do right thing without enforcement. Let's call it "cooperative-anarchism" to differentiate it from "jungle-anarchism," which prevails on the rest of the roads. This beast can be tamed with some enforcement, I'm sure. >>> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>> and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > is distracted with cell phones, or kids, or DVDs, or books, or... > DRIVING is job #1! Hey now, my favorite race track, the Watermelon 500, and don't forget our own Southern Autobahn, GA 400. Last time I was on 400, I was doing 100+ in the next to right most lane (out of 4 lanes) and was being passed on both sides. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply >>>> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>>> and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > 100+ in the next to right most lane (out of 4 lanes) and was being > passed on both sides. My bruthah! I actually loved it once I acclimated. No one goofing around. Everyone paying attention. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Warning!? You want a warning? O.K., I'm warning you not to do that again or I'll give you another ticket. >>>>> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >>>>> and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > My bruthah! I actually loved it once I acclimated. No one goofing > around. Everyone paying attention. If they ever fix GA 316 (Norcross to Athens) to be limited access like GA 400 is, we'll have our second Southern Autobahn. It's already running at 80-85 between the traffic lights. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply >> Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper >> and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick. > >Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately. Fine by me - when you slow down, you open up a gap between your car and the one that you were driving next to and I can finally get around your LLB a.s. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ > > I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane > > because some a.shole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at the > > 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane. > > The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph > and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80. > -- Someone suggested using a hand granade, but I'd stay away from it, since you will not even be given a medal. Actually, the full force of the law will fall on you until they get the last penny out you. ;) > >>Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving? > > > > If you've driven I-95 in Florida then you know the jungle. > > I did, just yesterday, from Jacksonville to Daytona (then took 4 over to > Orlando) I should have said South Florida, since I barely know the north. The south (south of West Palm Beach) is very, very busy so things get worse and all these things apply. But lane discipline is a national problem, so chaos is to be expected wherever you can zigzag at will on the road, particularly where you use your mass to intimidate others. speking about the lions... Throwing Christians to the Lions "Because the Romans believed that the favor of the gods was necessary to the security of the state, the Christians were believed to be not only impious and anti-religious but unpatriotic as well. In addition, many Christians refused to serve in the army because they might have to kill other human beings and thus violate the commandments of Christ. Similarly, some Christians refused to hold government posts, engage in commerce, or loan money because they saw these activities as lending approval to a corrupt earthly system." http://www.olph.com/lions.htm Times have changed though. Now Christians engage in these activities quite routinely. They occupy high office, wage war and pursue riches. As a matter of fact, they have become undistinguishable from the Romans. And the "corrupt earthly system" is presided by a pope. Of course, now they are safe from the lions. > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep > right except to pass. Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the "Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha... SignatureIBA# 11465 http://imagesdesavions.com > > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of > > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep > > right except to pass. > > Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the > "Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha... It makes sense change the system. Fast zigzaging vehicles are far more dangerous than fast vehicles on the left lane. Besides traffic would move along faster. And much less road rage too. Common sense, no? > > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of > > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep > > right except to pass. > > Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the > "Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha... They do, of course. > > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of > > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > IBA# 11465 > http://imagesdesavions.com Oh, so you have reason to believe that the speed limit is somehow more important than KRETP? Please elaborate, because the rest of us apparently missed your "logic." nate >> > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >> > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >important than KRETP? Please elaborate, because the rest of us >apparently missed your "logic." His "troll logic" was not lost on me... SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >>inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep >>right except to pass. > > Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the > "Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha... HEY! I agree! It doesn't say, "keep right up to the speed limit and then anywheres fine with us". The sign isn't big enough! It's not the job of another driver to play traffic cop and set up rolling road blocks. Keep right means exactly what it says. There are no outside limits to it. It works for everyone (fast or slow) when kept to its most basic directive. Let the cops decide if the faster driver should be cited. In the mean time, get the hell back over into the right lane and quit impeding traffic! <g> SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface. >>>'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >>>inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > In the mean time, get the hell back over into the right lane and quit > impeding traffic! <g> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and stay right there in the left lane, just to piss off him off. If he moves to the right to pass, then I'll accelerate and stay about 2 MPH above his speed at all times until he's going 20 MPH over the limit before I slam on the brakes and send him careening away into Speeding Ticket Land. If it's night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him until he's at least 10 carlengths away. >>>>'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >>>>inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him > until he's at least 10 carlengths away. You shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel of a car. Hopefully the next car you do this to will be an unmarked cop car. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >>>>>inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > You shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel of a car. Hopefully the > next car you do this to will be an unmarked cop car. Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over the limit (without lights or a siren). > Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over the > limit (without lights or a siren). "mostly". I have had an unmarked car follow me for 15 miles once. It wasn't tailgating, but it was awfully close through all those turns and such on surface roads (how I knew it was following) to be the only other car on the road at that time of night. I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate to try and get me to speed up over the limit so they could then nail me. I didn't fall for but saw someone else right after that get trapped that way. I have also had an unmarked cop car ease up past me and ease forward and back off as if he was trying to goad me into "racing" him. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org The answer to this last question will determine whether you are drunk or not. "Was Mickey Mouse a cat or a dog?" >> Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they >> speed up to 20MPH over the limit (without [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > following) to be the only other car on the road > at that time of night. Had to be Travis county... > I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate to > try and get me to speed up over the limit so > they could then nail me. I didn't fall for but > saw someone else right after that get trapped > that way. I stop for tailgaters. Well it's the same way that David Hough suggests you do it...I pull over and stop. > I have also had an unmarked cop car ease up past > me and ease forward and back off as if he was > trying to goad me into "racing" him. I love it when they do that...because you can goad THEM into breaking the law. Not that I would but I've been told that some people would do things like that. SignatureKeith Schiffner Assistant to the Assistant Undersecretary of the Ministry of Silly Walks. "terrorist organization" is a redundancy >>>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they >>>speed up to 20MPH over the limit (without [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Had to be Travis county... Nope. Some backwater Okie town. >>I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate to >>try and get me to speed up over the limit so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > David Hough suggests you do it...I pull over and > stop. Said backwater towns are not the place to pull over and get trapped. Cop or otherwise. >>I have also had an unmarked cop car ease up past >>me and ease forward and back off as if he was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've been told that some people would do things > like that. Like they're gonna care. They *are* the cops. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I hate to advocate drugs or liquor, violence, insanity to anyone, but in my case it's worked." – Dr. Hunter S. Thompson >>>>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they >>>>speed up to 20MPH over the limit (without [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Nope. Some backwater Okie town. Oh, must be the scummy part of the state. You know anywhere east and south of Enid. ;^) >>>I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate >>>to try and get me to speed up over the limit so [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Said backwater towns are not the place to pull > over and get trapped. Cop or otherwise. Never had a problem in ANY back water town...EVER. That would include Arkansaw, Missouri, Kan... >>>I have also had an unmarked cop car ease up >>>past me and ease forward and back off as if he [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Like they're gonna care. They *are* the cops. Ah, but when they want to do anything you've GOT them. Unless they are on a call or responding to a call they have to obey the same laws you do. Yes I've heard of them getting speeding tickets for it...granted that was 20 years ago and with all this taliban crap going on the last 10 years. Well I suppose they can get away with murder now. SignatureNefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~ >>>>>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they >>>>>speed up to 20MPH over the limit (without [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Oh, must be the scummy part of the state. You know > anywhere east and south of Enid. ;^) Bingo! OKC! >>>>I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate >>>>to try and get me to speed up over the limit so [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > this taliban crap going on the last 10 years. Well > I suppose they can get away with murder now. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Jesus loves you...but everyone else thinks you are an a.s. "Bownse" SNIP >> Oh, must be the scummy part of the state. You >> know anywhere east and south of Enid. ;^) > > Bingo! OKC! AH! Enough said...as for the ticket that was iirc a county mountie ticketed by OHP. 8^) Apparently the guy was a dick and well...you know. SNIP SignatureKeith Schiffner Assistant to the Assistant Undersecretary of the Ministry of Silly Walks. "terrorist organization" is a redundancy > "Bownse" > SNIP [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > SNIP He did seem to get taller when I smiled. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no... >> Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over >> the limit (without lights or a siren). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and such on surface roads (how I knew it was following) to be the only > other car on the road at that time of night. Who cares? I'm talking about actual tailgating; i.e., following well within 1 carlength. So close that he might rearend you if you stop suddenly. > I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate to try and get me to > speed up over the limit so they could then nail me. I didn't fall for > but saw someone else right after that get trapped that way. That's why you go exactly on the speed limit instead. Never let a tailgater intimidate you into going faster than you ought to. If the dickhead honks or flashes his lights, then ignore him (or slow down even more). > I have also had an unmarked cop car ease up past me and ease forward > and back off as if he was trying to goad me into "racing" him. When they're that close, it's not hard to differentiate a cop car from a regular car (which you obviously know since you just stated that you knew it was an unmarked cop car). Just let the dude get ahead of you, then write down his plate number and stuff and ignore him. When you get home you can report his antics to the Attorney General's office. >>>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over >>>the limit (without lights or a siren). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > within 1 carlength. So close that he might rearend you if you stop > suddenly. "Within 1 car length" is tailgating? You must be some real country bumpkin. >>I have also had cop cars pull up and tailgate to try and get me to >>speed up over the limit so they could then nail me. I didn't fall for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > dickhead honks or flashes his lights, then ignore him (or slow down even > more). Spoken like a true BDC. >>I have also had an unmarked cop car ease up past me and ease forward >>and back off as if he was trying to goad me into "racing" him. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > write down his plate number and stuff and ignore him. When you get home > you can report his antics to the Attorney General's office. Doesn't matter since the whole town does it for revenue. Which you'd know if you were anything other than a loser troll. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org If you can read this then I can slam on my brakes and sue you. >>>>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over >>>>the limit (without lights or a siren). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "Within 1 car length" is tailgating? That's not what I wrote. Can't you read? > Bownse <bownse@swbell.net> wrote : > >> Who cares? I'm talking about actual tailgating; i.e., following well > >> within 1 carlength. > > "Within 1 car length" is tailgating? > That's not what I wrote. Can't you read? Yeah, Mark. Matt clearly wrote "within 1 carlength," not "within 1 car length." The least you can do is quote his misspellings correctly! >> Bownse <bownse@swbell.net> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The least you can do is quote his misspellings correctly! Another one who can't read. No wonder you can't drive, either. >>>Bownse <bownse@swbell.net> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Another one who can't read. No wonder you can't drive, either. And another case about someone who doesn't drive. Get a clue, ya BDC. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Everywhere is within walking distance ... if you have the time." - Stephen Wright >>> >> Who cares? I'm talking about actual tailgating; i.e., following >>> >> well within 1 carlength. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Another one who can't read. No wonder you can't drive, either. Bill? Is that you?? SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>Bownse <bownse@swbell.net> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The least you can do is quote his misspellings correctly! My bad. It's just hard to switch to BDC mode when it's not natural like it appears to be in his case. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. - Ronald Reagan >>>>>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over >>>>>the limit (without lights or a siren). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > That's not what I wrote. Can't you read? That is what you said. "well" as a qualifier or not. clearly you couldn't extrapolate my point that even outside of 1 car length is tailgating to most people given variables in conditions. BDC strikes again. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Warning!? You want a warning? O.K., I'm warning you not to do that again or I'll give you another ticket. >>> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >>> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over the >limit (without lights or a siren). What planet are you from? Is your mommy still f.cking her dad? >>Unmarked cop cars don't tailgate, nor do they speed up to 20MPH over the >>limit (without lights or a siren). > >What planet are you from? Is your mommy still f.cking her dad? I saw an unmarked police car tailgating just yesterday. He was in the left lane and was attempting to "convince" an oblivious LLB to return to the right lane on Swan Road. After several long moments, the LLB finally relented, and the cop sped on by. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>>>'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >>>>inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him > until he's at least 10 carlengths away. Yup, you're the type of a.shole I punt off the road. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole tailgates > me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and stay right [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him > until he's at least 10 carlengths away. See how well that all works out? When I encounter an over bearing self centered holier-than-thou a.shole like you, if I'm in my car or truck, I merely drive around you on the shoulder, or an exit ramp, or a turn lane, or on the median, or in an oncoming traffic lane, then merge smoothly back in front of you, then apply my own brakes, slowing almost to a stop (changing lanes as necessary to stay in front of you, of course, if you attempt to go around me) and then accelerate away at a rate that you are unable to match. If I'm on one of my motorcycles, I simply blast by before your pitifully slow reflexes even register the fact that I'm there, and laugh as I watch you dwindle in my rear view mirrors while you ineffectually masturbate your high beam stalk. Meanwhile, my Valentine One monitors the road ahead at all times. I've had one speeding ticket in the past twenty-five years, and that was on a day when I accidentally left the radar detector in my car while I took the truck. And everybody is HAPPY! Tim >> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > laugh as I watch you dwindle in my rear view mirrors while you > ineffectually masturbate your high beam stalk. While the high-beam is on, I'll be taking down your license plate number so I can report your offensive driving tactics later. Whoops, you lose. >>>Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >>>tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > While the high-beam is on, I'll be taking down your license plate number > so I can report your offensive driving tactics later. Whoops, you lose. Naw. His tag is flipped up so a.sholes that try and create a situation can't succeed. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "Some days I feel like I'm limping away from the scene of a terrible accident that left my youth by the side of the road in a tangled, smoking heap." - Jerry Smith > >> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole > >> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > While the high-beam is on, I'll be taking down your license plate number > so I can report your offensive driving tactics later. Whoops, you lose. It's going to be hard for you to take down the license plate when it's splattered with mud. Besides, Odinn is right behind me, and he's going to spin you off the road while you're squinting, trying to make out the numbers and letters (or are there just letters? or just numbers? and what state was that?) underneath the mud. Whoops, you lose, you f.cking control freak! >> >> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >> >> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > It's going to be hard for you to take down the license plate when it's > splattered with mud. Make sure your make, model, paint color and any special doodads are concealed, too. 'Cause I'll take the best guess I can at the plate digits and then provide a description of the vehicle in order to make the records search easier. You lose again. And you'll need to keep everything covered all the time, if you regularly drive in the same areas I do, because I'll remember you and take down the information if I see your vehicle again without the details covered up. (I hope you enjoy losing all the time.) "Matt" SNIP > And you'll need to keep everything covered all > the time, if you regularly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the details covered up. > (I hope you enjoy losing all the time.) Scum like you can't remember your own VIN what makes you think you can tell one bike from another...you are the kind of person who calls all motorcycles "harley". What a mouth breather...I'll be sure to flick your cigarette back in your window. Guys like you don't write damn thing down and usually end up in the ditch upside down. 8^) Not that I'd EVER bait a scum bag into doing that to them selves. SignatureNefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt jewelry once in a while. Dum vivimus, vivamus <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )3~ <:(3 )~ <:(3 )~ > "Matt" > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Not that I'd EVER bait a scum bag into doing that > to them selves. BINGO! Got it in 1, Keith. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer and remove the crabgrass from your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." P.J. O'Rourke > >> >> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole > >> >> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > information if I see your vehicle again without the details covered up. > (I hope you enjoy losing all the time.) Well, gee, Matt, I've been riding and driving in the metropolitan Washington D.C. area for 32 years and successfully dealing with control freak a.sholes like you every single stinking day, and haven't once lost yet. So, why don't you move here and try your luck, you f.cking low life loser? I'm on Cold Harbor Court in Herndon, and you'll see me riding a black 2004 Harley-Davidson FLTRI Road Glide or a black 1972 Triumph TR6RV Tiger, or a black 1999 Triumph Speed Triple, or a black 2001 BMW Z3 3.0i Coupe or a black (gee, are we seeing a trend here?) 1990 Chevy 454SS pickup truck. Or did you think a was supposed to be askeereded by your threats? I'll be the one behind you with my high beams on, Matt. Oh, and Matt? The Fairfax County cops who ride motorcycles take a very dim view of cagers who actively attempt to put a rider on the ground by slamming on their brakes in front of them.... even when the control freak cage driver is unsuccessful, which you WILL be. Now, Matt, what you REALLY want to be careful of is my wife, a petite blonde in a Cobalt Blue 2004 Volkswagen R32 or my son, Justin, in a 1990 red Mazda Miata or worse, his light yellow and fake wood trim 1989 Ford Crown Victoria Station Wagen with the Police Interceptor exhaust system (he lives in Fairfax) because they both drive far more aggresively than I do, and Justin decorates the fenders of his cars with little pictures of the cars of a.sholes like you that he's punted into the woods of Great Falls! Kindest regards, Your Friend in Herndon, Virginia Tim Morrow >> >> >> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >> >> >> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Well, gee, Matt, I've been riding and driving in the metropolitan > Washington D.C. area for 32 years Please stay there for another 32 years. Matt blathered: > Please stay there for another 32 years. Please keep your anonymous, controlling, freakishly stunted little a.s whereever you are anonymously posting from too, control boy. >> Well, gee, Matt, I've been riding and driving in the metropolitan >> Washington D.C. area for 32 years > >Please stay there for another 32 years. Gosh, Matt, aren't you going to take Tim up on his nice invitation? SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: >>>Well, gee, Matt, I've been riding and driving in the metropolitan >>>Washington D.C. area for 32 years >> >>Please stay there for another 32 years. > > Gosh, Matt, aren't you going to take Tim up on his nice invitation? Matt sounds askiert. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I only know because Google knows. You know that. Shut off the computer and I'm dumber than a stump." - Andrew Duthie On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:06:21 -0800, Scott en Aztlán <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote: >>> Well, gee, Matt, I've been riding and driving in the metropolitan >>> Washington D.C. area for 32 years >> >>Please stay there for another 32 years. > >Gosh, Matt, aren't you going to take Tim up on his nice invitation? Matt the pussy troll couldn't take anyone up on an invitation to get his a.s kicked as he is not a man. He is a dickless coward who sat by and watched his daddy beat his mommy for years, got his own a.s beat hundreds of times in school, and is now stuck as some underling reporting to a real man with a real job. >> >> > in my car or truck, I merely drive around you on the shoulder, >> >> > or an exit ramp, or a turn lane, or on the median, or in an [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > It's going to be hard for you to take down the license plate when >> > it's splattered with mud. You're an outstanding role model for drivers everywhere. Got any more useful driving advice to share? Matt the trooper's friend blathered on endlessly: > You're an outstanding role model for drivers everywhere. Got any more > useful driving advice to share? Sure, but I tend to share them in the classroom. I trained about 4,500 of Virginia's finest motorcyclists as an instructor in the Virginia Rider Training Program from 1991 to 2003. Probably 4,500 more good reasons for you not to consider relocating to northern Virginia. How's that high beam stalk feel these days, Matt? > Matt the trooper's friend blathered on endlessly: > >> You're an outstanding role model for drivers everywhere. Got any >> more useful driving advice to share? > > Sure, but I tend to share them in the classroom. LOL. What's lesson one, passing cars using the median? Or slowing to a near stop in the middle of a highway? If you're teaching people to drive, then it's no wonder there are so many a.sholes on the roads. >>Matt the trooper's friend blathered on endlessly: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you're teaching people to drive, then it's no wonder there are so many > a.sholes on the roads. Why would he do that? He doesn't teach people to drive. Or do you have a problem comprehending what people write? SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Relax, the handcuffs are tight because they're new. They'll stretch out after you wear them awhile. >>>>>>in my car or truck, I merely drive around you on the shoulder, >>>>>>or an exit ramp, or a turn lane, or on the median, or in an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You're an outstanding role model for drivers everywhere. Got any more > useful driving advice to share? He's not a driver. Clearly you operate from the mindset of a BDC. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org MicroSloth: Bringing you ten-year-old technology, tomorrow, maybe. >>> >> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >>> >> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >digits and then provide a description of the vehicle in order to make the >records search easier. You lose again. Don't forget, I was stuck behind you, as well, and I saw the whole thing, and I'll be phoning the cops myself to report the a.shole LLB who keeps speeding up when people attempt to pass him. >(I hope you enjoy losing all the time.) Feel free to post a report here about how that feels. ;) SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>>>>Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >>>>>tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > digits and then provide a description of the vehicle in order to make the > records search easier. You lose again. And then you woke up. It would appear red as it pulled away from you at hyper velocity; blue if passing you the other way. > And you'll need to keep everything covered all the time, if you regularly > drive in the same areas I do, because I'll remember you and take down the > information if I see your vehicle again without the details covered up. > (I hope you enjoy losing all the time.) In your dreams. Far too many cookie cutter bikes out there for cops to be able to do anything about it after the fact. Since you instigated the entire sequence of events, it'd be easy to entrap you later with witnesses. Clueless dweebs are like that. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org For every winner, there are dozens of losers. Odds are you're one of them. >>> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >>> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >While the high-beam is on, I'll be taking down your license plate number >so I can report your offensive driving tactics later. Whoops, you lose. BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!! Go ahead, report to your heart's content. You think the cops are going to believe an a.shole like you? SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ >>>> Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole >>>> tailgates me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Go ahead, report to your heart's content. You think the cops are going > to believe an a.shole like you? Sure. The last guy wound up getting prosecuted, convicted and fined $300. Not to mention a few points on the driver's license, and probably an insurance rate hike as well. > Sure. The last guy wound up getting prosecuted, convicted and fined > $300. Not to mention a few points on the driver's license, and probably > an insurance rate hike as well. What was his name, what was he driving, where & when did this happen, what court convicted him, and what police department investigated it. And, oh yeah, which Attorney General did you call? It's all part of the public record, Matt, right? And you are a law abiding citizen, you never break the law, and you help the police enforce the laws that others are breaking when the police aren't around, right, Matt? So why the anonymity? Why say "the last guy" instead of giving the miscreant's name? Everything you say can be verified, right Matt? I love anonymous little usenet pricks telling everyone else that they're wrong. Are you sure you're not a Sheriff, Matt? -- Tim Morrow, Herndon, Virginia >>>While the high-beam is on, I'll be taking down your license plate number >>>so I can report your offensive driving tactics later. Whoops, you lose. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >$300. Not to mention a few points on the driver's license, and probably >an insurance rate hike as well. Oh yes, I'm sure the cops, the prosecutor, the judge, and the insurance company all called you up afterwards and told you the outcome of the case. SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Hey Matt, Any idea how alt.culture.alaska ended being added to your post? Robert On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:01:27 -0800, Scott en Aztlán <slothkills@NOyahooSPAM.com> wrote: >>While the high-beam is on, I'll be taking down your license plate number >>so I can report your offensive driving tactics later. Whoops, you lose. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Go ahead, report to your heart's content. You think the cops are going >to believe an a.shole like you? More likely they will pull his a.s out of his car and beat the sh.t out of him. Then they will drive him to the nearest ghetto and yell nigger, then leave him behind with a sign that says "nigger hater." Then, when days later the paramedics find what is left of his body, if there is any life left at all, they will make sure some hospital does their best to make him recover so they can have do it all over again. Hopefully this cycle repeats itself time and time again. >Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole tailgates >me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and stay right [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him >until he's at least 10 carlengths away. You don't happen to drive a white Suburban, do you? SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ > > > > 'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of > > > > inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Ticket Land. If it's night time and there are no other cars nearby, > then I'll high beam him until he's at least 10 carlengths away. And yet most people have another portion of their brain. This is the one that deals with critical thinking and is finely tuned to the fact that actions have consequences. It is also the area that has recently been proved to be not fully developed until beyond the teen-age years. If you are not a teen-ager perhaps your brain was deprived of oxygen at some point in your early development. I would suggest a visit to a neurologist right away. It's possible that certain therapies could yet make you a fully functional person. In the mean-time do everyone a favor and try to avoid things like voting or reproducing. >>>>'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of >>>>inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him > until he's at least 10 carlengths away. Ah... so, when we look at "a.shole" in the encyclopedia, your picture is there? SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "I am the new superhero, 'Captain Apathy'. I have all the super-powers but I don't have any desire to use them." - Rigger > Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole tailgates > me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and stay right [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him > until he's at least 10 carlengths away. ...and one day you'll be found dead on the side of the road, and your boss will wonder why you're not at work. Do you torture small animals, as well? Where did all that hatred come from? Reassembler >Whenever I'm in the left lane (for any reason) and some a.shole tailgates >me or whatever, I will slow down to exactly the limit and stay right [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >night time and there are no other cars nearby, then I'll high beam him >until he's at least 10 carlengths away. Your daddy beat you as a kid, and your mom couldn't intervene because she was too busy sucking off her daddy, so you respond by being a child on the highway. >>Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving? > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > by these idiots when we think it is safe to do so rather than having > them hang out next to us. It's just as bad in Seattle. The keep right except to pass law is in effect, and no one pays attention to it! SignatureAndrew 00 Daytona 00 Speed Triple I would say hopefully they will pass the law that's going to be introduced. Keep right except to pass. Though I see signs that say this all the time, and people do the opposite. It's these fools who are endangering everyone else, because they're making the people behind them take risks and become aggresive trying to get around them. Though it won't make a difference. They don't enforce most other laws, at least when the sun is up, I don't know what this one is going to do. I dont' even see people follow the Live Stop law., Except truckers whose always done this, but they know the rules. > -When you choose your large vehicle, Make it > bigger again by adding oversized tyres. Ain't no *Real Man* would put "tyres" on a truck! We use *Tars*! (And they ain't "oversized"; they's *33s*!) -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that) > > -When you choose your large vehicle, Make it > > bigger again by adding oversized tyres. > > Ain't no *Real Man* would put "tyres" on a truck! We use *Tars*! Real men use tracks and they're tanks not trucks. > (And they ain't "oversized"; they's *33s*!) > -- > C.R. Krieger > (Been there; done that) "Furious George" SNIP > Real men use tracks and they're tanks not > trucks. Ah, what a ill-informed weenie. IF I were to use a tracked vehicle on the street it would be either a M548 OR a M113A3. But the 548 would get converted to the M113A3's drivetrain package. Adds a tubo and a REAL transaxle instead of a transmission differential set up. FAR faster and more controllable i.e. you can induce powerslides in a straight line on mud. "Road rage is like terrorism - it may be excessive and unjust, it may cause innocent victims, and it may be undeserved, but it is never unprovoked." I like the definition, though I'd use the word "rarely" instead of "never." I have had unprovoked rage, like others raging at me for doing the right thing, which, regrettably, they may be unaware of. My rage though is directed at the Department of Motor Vehicles and the Highway Patrol. It IS a systemic problem. They issue the "licence to kill" and they fail to enforce lane discipline. The jungle starts there, and packing a bigger gun, just makes you another victim of the game. Guess where you will land after you use it, and how much it'll cost you in lawyers? Perhaps the whole thing is about feeding the lion and foxes. Now I just drive with a Mona Lisa smile thinking: "It's a jungle out there." "Driver cut you off? It's your fault. You shouldn't have been driving so slowly. Driver refuses to let you merge? It's your fault. They have the right of way, so back off and yield. Driver tailgating you? It's your fault. Speed up, or pull over and let them pass. Driver threatens you with a gun? It's your fault. Carry a bigger gun, or a hand grenade. Driver deliberately hits your car? It's your fault. You should have got out of their way. This is not a problem that can be solved through legislation, because you can't legislate common sense. You alone are responsible for your lot in life. Stop worrying about other drivers and look to yourself for the solution. Also being more patient helps." http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=44& For real HORROR STORIES turn to this website... http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?s=2681b0d1066b0d41e2f503354791c5cf&act=SF&f=2 Cell phones have undoubtedly inspired some of the best ones... ;) Cell phone rage By Michelle Gillett STOCKBRIDGE AFTER A visit to Williamstown's art galleries and a stop at Plaine's in Pittsfield to check out the bikes a few weeks ago, I was driving down South Street in the left lane, preparing to make the turn onto Crofut Street to drop off my traveling companion. We were discussing the pros and cons of hybrid bikes versus road bikes versus mountain bikes, when she said, "Holy s***, we're going to be killed!" I glanced over to where she was pointing and saw a car crossing the right hand lane of traffic, heading straight for us. Instead of steering into the turning lane, the driver was making a wide loop that put us directly into her path and brought her within a hair's breadth of demolishing us before I threw my upper body against the horn which caused her to look up and realize she was about to kill us. Somehow, she corrected the turn, all the while laughing into the cell phone she was holding. In the prolonged seconds of this near death experience, I could see clearly what had happened: She had turned right onto South Street from a side street but had been unable to negotiate the turn that would have placed her appropriately into the right hand lane because she was driving with one hand and one quarter of her brain. The other hand was holding the cell phone and the rest of her brain was engaged in conversation. My friend and I used expletives that we didn't know we knew. We even used some hand gestures. Unlike Dick Cheney we didn't feel better. We felt outraged and shaken. The driver who nearly killed us blithely traveled on still chatting away on her cell phone. She looked animated. She was still laughing -- undoubtedly telling the tale of her almost collision with us. (continues) It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... The Ticket Lawyers "it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the the insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists insurance rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket! Again, the best defense is to retain the best legal counsel one can afford. The best counsel means an experienced firm that files as many motions as a case warrants, goes to as many hearings as necessary and fights or tries the case if necessary. This takes time, since sometimes these cases are continued several times. Aggressive and Zealous representation at an affordable rate is our goal at Ticket Law Center. We fight these cases in sixty (60) of sixty-seven (67) Florida Counties. We are definitely not the cheapest, nor are we the most expensive firm I have found handling these matters. However, in this as in all areas of law, you get what you pay for." http://www.ticketlawyer.com/speeding.htm Why give your hard earned money to the government in the from of fines for violating the MV code when you can just as easily give it to some shark lawyer like this guy so he can buy a new BMW for his 16 year old kid? Wouldn't it be better to hold your speed to the ten over the limit that most cops allow before they cite anyone? LOL mike hunt > It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > http://www.ticketlawyer.com/speeding.htm MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: > Why give your hard earned money to the government in the from of > fines for violating the MV code when you can just as easily give > it to some shark lawyer like this guy so he can buy a new BMW for > his 16 year old kid? Wouldn't it be better to hold your speed > to the ten over the limit that most cops allow before they cite > anyone? LOL Not a bad idea. I'd feel particularly envious though at the kid in the BMW passing me at 90MPH... > It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping > increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket! Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on average of every 3 years). My rates have steadily dropped every year, including the years I got the speeding tickets and the years following. More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they f.ck they are talking about. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they f.ck they > are talking about. It's a lawyer, they know what they are talking about. But may prefer to lie. In his defense though insurance rates DO go up with tickets, even if you are an exception to the rule. >>>It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > In his defense though insurance rates DO go up with tickets, even if > you are an exception to the rule. It's a lawyer, they lie about things they know nothing about, which is 99% of the sh.t they talk about. Insurance rates rarely go up with a speeding ticket, I'm not an exception to the rule. Insurance rates usually go up with claims. Having speeding tickets makes it harder to get lower rates initially, but the occassional one here and there do not increase rates. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply >Insurance rates rarely go up with a speeding ticket, I'm not an exception to the rule. Insurance rates usually go up with claims. Having speeding tickets makes it harder to get lower rates initially, but the occassional one here and there do not increase rates. In New Jersey, any moving violation means a stiff increase in premiums. >>Insurance rates rarely go up with a speeding ticket, I'm not an exception > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In New Jersey, any moving violation means a stiff increase in premiums. I'm willing to bet that isn't true. I lived in Hoboken in 1979-80, my rates didn't increase with the one and only ticket I received while living there. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply > > In New Jersey, any moving violation means a stiff increase in premiums. > > > I'm willing to bet that isn't true. I lived in Hoboken in 1979-80, my > rates didn't increase with the one and only ticket I received while > living there. Bet all you want. Me and hundreds of thousands of other drivers have been paying the penalties. >> > In New Jersey, any moving violation means a stiff increase in premiums. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Bet all you want. Me and hundreds of thousands of other drivers have been > paying the penalties. In my experience it is not the ticket (initially) that triggers a rate increase, but if you later have a claim, then they will check your history and in previously unknown tickets show up those tickets WILL increase your rate more than the claim by itself would have. There might be companies who occasionally check at re-up time and bump your rates due to tickets, but I'd be surprised if they would tell you that was the reason. >> It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they f.ck they > are talking about. I had GEICO for more than 10 years and rates were always going up in spite of no tickets or claims. That was during their expansion days when they used to only cover government workers (Government Employee Insurance COmpany). When they expanded out to the higher risk groups and started their ongoing stupid ad campaigns, they financed it on the backs of their existing customers. Add to that their providing radar and laser guns to some PDs and their refusal to pay any claim if a radar detector is noted by the LEO, I chose to move to a company that didn't spend my fees against me. Which is the same reason I won't join AARP when I become a geezer. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. - Ronald Reagan >>> It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)... >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > chose to move to a company that didn't spend my fees against me. Which > is the same reason I won't join AARP when I become a geezer. Let's see here. I believe I started with GEICO in 1979, shortly after joining the NAVY (I joined Sept 1978). I've been with them with several policies over the years (6 years this latest policy) and the ONLY time I've seen my rates increase was when I purchased a more expensive vehicle, or had multiple vehicles. A couple of years ago, I was insuring 3 cars, full coverage on 2 of them (1999 Dodge Ram 1500 and 1996 Dodge Neon), liability on one (1989 Honda Civic), and my cost was just under $2000 per year. Sold the Civic and the Neon, bought a 2004 Dodge Stratus SE, full coverage still on the truck and now on the Stratus, my rate is now $1344 per year (well, $672 per six months, since they don't do 1 year terms), and this is with a speeding ticket of 80 in a 65 just 9 months ago. Now, if the wife and I would take a defensive driving course, I'ld save another $160 per year. Hmmm, might not be a bad idea, if I could just find the time to do it. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply >Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have >NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on average [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they f.ck they >are talking about. Actually, judging solely by the posts, I'd have to say yours was the bullshit publication before I'd say his was... SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ Scott en Aztlán wrote: >>Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have >>NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on average [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Actually, judging solely by the posts, I'd have to say yours was the > bullshit publication before I'd say his was... Ah, another f.cking idiot that doesn't know his head is up his a.s. SignatureOdinn "The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do." --Walter Bagehot Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide '97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org rot13 to reply >Scott en Aztlán wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Ah, another f.cking idiot that doesn't know his head is up his a.s. Thanks for proving my point. :) SignatureSloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/ MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: > It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling > your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass. > Getting riled up, will not help ;) True, but not everyone out there is a Dali Lama. Further, the abscense of law develops into the Law of the Jungle. It would be so easy to correct bad behavior at the source, but what can you expect from an stupid--and hungry--dinosaur? > MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > correct bad behavior at the source, but what can you expect from an > stupid--and hungry--dinosaur? Nope. The absence of law develops into individual liability/responsibility. You dis someone seriously enough and eventually you're dead. Clearly you won't dis anyone that badly again and others that hear of the results, who actually consider their mortality occasionally, are less prone to that level of disishness from the outset. "An armed society is a polite society." SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org MicroSloth: Bringing you ten-year-old technology, tomorrow, maybe. > > MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > liability/responsibility. You dis someone seriously enough and > eventually you're dead. Clearly you won't dis anyone that badly again > and others that hear of the results, who actually consider their > mortality occasionally, are less prone to that level of disishness from > the outset. > > "An armed society is a polite society." The proof of the risks of Jungle Anarchism can be plainly seen in our roads. It's OK for big fat SUVs to zigzag around smaller vehicles without any concern for their safety. But it's not OK, for smaller cars to go faster if caught speeding. If you had Cooperative Anarchism though all would move faster and you would have more winners. Two groups: Slower vehicles to the right, faster vehicles to the left. Separation of prey and predator. Besides being common sense this theory won a Noble Prize. John Nash stated that "Adam Smith was wrong"! "The best result comes from doing the best for one's self and for the group"! THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always taking the LION'S SHARE, and seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all, demanded JUSTICE... The Lion, yawning and stretching, said, "You would have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the Monkey, who was very clever, devised a plan: He would go to the costume store, and look like a lion... When the HUNGRY LION saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for him, and fearing COMPETITION, killed him on the spot --before the indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time... *** I was watching the other day "A Beautiful Mind," in which John Nash proposes his game theory that in all-out competition as proposed by Adam Smith ALL LOSE. Of course, the HUNGRY LION ignores this... Here is his theory, which is consistent with our own COMPETITION WITH THE COMMON GOOD IN MIND. I'd argue further that COOPERATION AMONG THE LITTLE PEOPLE IS IN ORDER SO THEY CAN FEND OFF PREDATORS. COMMON SENSE IN THE JUNGLE... ;) The Nash Equilibrium The theory constructs a notion of "equilibrium," to which the complex chain of thinking about thinking could converge. Then the strategies of all players would be mutually consistent in the sense that each would be choosing his or her best response to the choices of the others. For such a theory to be useful, the equilibrium it posits should exist. Nash used novel mathematical techniques to prove the existence of equilibrium in a very general class of games. This paved the way for applications. Biologists have even used the notion of Nash equilibrium to formulate the idea of evolutionary stability. Here are a few examples to convey some ideas of game theory and the breadth of its scope. The Prisoner's Dilemma In Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22, allied victory in World War II is a foregone conclusion, and Yossarian does not want to be among the last ones to die. His commanding officer points out, "But suppose everyone on our side felt that way?" Yossarian replies, "Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?" Every general reader has heard of the prisoner's dilemma. The police interrogate two suspects separately, and suggest to each that he or she should fink on the other and turn state's evidence. "If the other does not fink, then you can cut a good deal for yourself by giving evidence against the other; if the other finks and you hold out, the court will treat you especially harshly. Thus no matter what the other does, it is better for you to fink than not to fink -- finking is your uniformly best or 'dominant' strategy." This is the case whether the two are actually guilty, as in some episodes of NYPD Blue, or innocent, as in the film LA Confidential. Of course, when both fink, they both fare worse than they would have if both had held out; but that outcome, though jointly desirable for them, collapses in the face of their separate temptations to fink. Yossarian's dilemma is just a multi-person version of this. His death is not going to make any significant difference to the prospects of victory, and he is personally better off alive than dead. So avoiding death is his dominant strategy. John Nash played an important role in interpreting the first experimental study of the prisoner's dilemma, which was conducted at the Rand Corporation in 1950. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_dixit.html >>>MelvinGib...@mailcity.com wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>mortality occasionally, are less prone to that level of disishness >>from the outset. "An armed society is a polite society." > The proof of the risks of Jungle Anarchism can be plainly seen in our > roads. It's OK for big fat SUVs to zigzag around smaller vehicles [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > groups: Slower vehicles to the right, faster vehicles to the left. > Separation of prey and predator. The only thing that proves is that it's NOT a jungle. Those who would defend themselves (riders) in an environment where there truly were no laws, are hindered from the fear that they would be prosecuted for direct actions while the indirect actions of the "instigators" (cagers) are ignored by those same enforcement entities. In an unhindered environment, each murder 2 attempt via an "SUV assault weapon" would be met with a justified use of deadly force for self defense (by the rider). The instant result is that ONE attempted murderer would never create that kind of situation again. The long term result would be that other careless cagers would become (more) careful because of the increased awareness that their actions had repercussions (since they too would have the potential of ending up dead instead of just the motorcyclist). The current problem is a direct result of certain mentalities KNOWING that they will never suffer any consequences for their actions. "I didn't see them", it a get out of jail free card for killers of riders. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org "The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan > The current problem is a direct result of certain mentalities KNOWING > that they will never suffer any consequences for their actions. "I > didn't see them", it a get out of jail free card for killers of riders. Good point. It ain't a true jungle. It's a jungle set up by and for the predators. Maybe it's a savannah. > Surviving in the jungle for 12 month ain't easy feat. It takes a lot of > knowledge of the laws...of the jungle. Number one is, size matters, > like the big fish eats the little fish... But don't take it from me... Actually, this is a crock. American roads are mostly incredibly boring. For a real jungle, try a third world country with a mix of cars, busses, cement mixers, oxcarts, herds of sheep, camels, elephants, bicycles, rickshaws and just about anything else you can think of, each going at whatever it's natural cruising speed happens to be. What always impressed me greatly was that the drivers seem to be able to calculate the relative speeds of each animal and vehicle on the road. The guy driving the scooter cab knows he can swerve into the opposite lane to get around the sheep, get back into the right lane before he hits the oxcart, swerve out into the opposite lane to avoid the rickshaw then slide back into his own lane with the nose of his vehicle under the tailgate of the truck ahead of him just before he gets splattered across the front of the cement mixer coming in the opposite direction. The most interesting thing of all is how in the middle of all this, a driver will swerve onto the shoulder to avoid a bird in the middle of the road pecking at roadkill. This is because the driver's religion tells him that life is sacred unless of course it's lost by accident in a collision. For the most memorable experience, go explore all of this in a three wheel scooter cab. First time we did this I recall my wife just kept screaming "Oh my God !! Oh my God" and trying to crawl under the seat and hide. Within a matter of days though she was taking this as calmly as anybody else. I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are anything worth talking about. > I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are > anything worth talking about. OK, OK, maybe it's just a boring savannah where the big and stupid prey on the small and even more stupid little animals. So long as you have an SUV here, you should be safe. > > I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are > > anything worth talking about. > > OK, OK, maybe it's just a boring savannah where the big and stupid prey > on the small and even more stupid little animals. So long as you have > an SUV here, you should be safe. This is rec.motorcycles in case you hadn't noticed. > > > I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are > > > anything worth talking about. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is rec.motorcycles in case you hadn't noticed. That's true. You have fun. And it would be even more fun--and safer--if everybody played by the rules of the road. "Current driving tests measure rudimentary knowledge of the rules of the road. At some point in a driver's life-usually very early- you must prove your ability to operate a vehicle under minimally difficult circumstances. Once licensed, many Americans are not road tested again for dozens of years. Adding cellular phones, babies, fast food, gigantic Sport Utility Vehicles, and other distractions-on top of a general increase in traffic and average speeds-only brews more gridlock and carnage." Don't give people a LICENSE TO KILL, give them OPTIONS! Be it fast trains or bicycles, the incompetentent are better off where they pose to danger to others. I like this: "Create a new traffic infraction: incompetence. The ticket has no fine, but the driver must take the new test. If they fail, they are downgraded to the new, limited-class license. They get one free retest and access to training. They must pass the new test within one year or lose their license." Regrettably, waiting for the system to change by itself is expecting the dinosaur to evolve. He has grown too big and fat though, thriving on the chaos out there. We can thus say, "It's a Jungle out there!" ;) Driving tests and real-life driving ... Politically, it is unpopular to suggest somebody who is physically impaired, who is emotionally unbalanced, or who is just plain stupid should not drive. But the fact is; bad driving causes lethal accidents and huge traffic jams every day, all across America. Bad driving wastes millions of gallons of fuel and adds tons of pollutants to our air. America's urban freeways are no place for the incompetent, and it is thousands of times less expensive and more effective to get lousy drivers off the road than it is to build ever-wider freeways and more elaborate junctions. A more difficult driving test will accomplish this. Driving tests can also reinforce common sense, patience, and respect for others... things which are increasingly rare on American roads. Current driving tests measure rudimentary knowledge of the rules of the road. At some point in a driver's life-usually very early- you must prove your ability to operate a vehicle under minimally difficult circumstances. Once licensed, many Americans are not road tested again for dozens of years. Adding cellular phones, babies, fast food, gigantic Sport Utility Vehicles, and other distractions-on top of a general increase in traffic and average speeds-only brews more gridlock and carnage. ... America must not shrink from hard decisions about where, when and who is fit to drive. We must get the incompetent, the angry, the thoughtless and the decrepit off the road. At the same time, we must provide the opportunity to learn driving skills for people who need to drive and are able to do it well, regardless of income level. Giving people options Increased transportation options for people who cannot drive must coincide with efforts to weed out lousy drivers. Forcing people out of their cars, with no way to get to work, breeds outlaws and joblessness. Some ways include: electric scooter and bicycle programs bike-trains high-speed rail By eliminating the small percentage of drivers who, for whatever reason, simply cannot cope with modern driving, we can reduce the estimated 6.6 billion gallons of gasoline wasted by Americans who were waiting in traffic in 1997, reduce the air pollution associated with that colossal waste, and reduce the amount of frustration on our roads in general. More options Not all drivers are created equal, and not all driving situations require the same amount of skill. An individual who is a nightmare driving in Miami or San Francisco might be perfectly competent driving in the small community where they live, and could be licensed to do that. Similarly, driving a 400-horsepower, 8,000 pound vehicle is much more demanding than driving a small vehicle, and should require specialized skill testing. State motor vehicle departments, with the assistance of the Highway Patrol, should have flexibility to apply a higher standard in a high-risk area. Limitations could be based on geography, population density, average speed, vehicle types etc. A test for the Los Angeles commuter might emphasize high-speed merging, traffic jams, and anger management. The privilege of driving in the wilds of Wyoming might require mastering snow and the effects of elevation. Pilot different tests in many cities. European counties with higher driving standards may be able to help. One reader asked, "how can we enforce such a plan?" Good question. A gradual transition seems best. Here are four sensible steps which could be taken over, say, five or seven years. 1. Automatically refer people cited for breaking existing traffic laws to a new, more difficult test. If they fail, they are downgraded to a new, limited-class license. They are excluded from driving in major metropolitan areas during high-use hours. They get one free retest and access to training. They must pass the new test within one year or lose their license. (This will be a great deterrent for those who are competent, but sometimes misbehave.) 2. Create a new traffic infraction: incompetence. The ticket has no fine, but the driver must take the new test. If they fail, they are downgraded to the new, limited-class license. They get one free retest and access to training. They must pass the new test within one year or lose their license. 3. Start going through the drivers rolls. Those motorists with the worst records and longest time since their last road test should be first for upgraded testing. 4. Limited drivers who receive a citation in the restricted areas during restricted times are considered to be driving without a license, and are prosecuted under existing laws. Clearly, this will require money to train more driving instructors and examiners, and to modernize licensing systems. This is money well spent; it will recycle through the community many times, while making our roads safer and our air cleaner, and while reducing demand for expensive fossil fuels. Response to this web page from the Sustainable Enterprises community: ... "I couldn't agree more that the licensing requirements in the United States needs to be changed. I lived in Germany for 20 years. Even though they have some 80 Million people crammed into the area of Washington and Oregon combined, they really can drive. They drive AWARE of what is going on around them. I returned to the Pacific Northwest a little over two years ago, and have never before seen so many incompetent and incapable drivers. People, just because it is big and has all the "safety" features, does not release you from being a RESPONSIBLE driver! If you can't drive it - park it and milk it." ... "Uncle George" is over 92 and still driving... fortunately in his neighborhood, which is not around here. I guess I'd better not tell you where he lives." more below... http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/Community/drivtest.htm http://committed.to/justiceforpeace http://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace >Giving people options >Increased transportation options for people who cannot drive must >coincide with efforts to weed out lousy drivers. Forcing people out >of their cars, with no way to get to work, breeds outlaws and >joblessness. Yet another reason why light rail is coming whether Robert Cote likes it or not. :) SignatureWhen are you people going to wake up to the fact that rebates are a SCAM? Scott en Aztlán wrote: > >Giving people options > >Increased transportation options for people who cannot drive must [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yet another reason why light rail is coming whether Robert Cote likes > it or not. :) I support wherever you are, and f.ck Robert Cote whoever he is... ;) <snip> > I like this: "Create a new traffic infraction: incompetence. The > ticket has no fine, but the driver must take the new test. If they > fail, they are downgraded to the new, limited-class license. They get > one free retest and access to training. They must pass the new test > within one year or lose their license." Please don't. The first time you get cited for this, you'll come back here whining about being a victim. Signature"Wakko" Waco Glenn NTXNS TOMKAT SENS '03 FLSTSI - "BlingBling" (The rare pigs reign) CRABB'04 MAMBM'04 VERMORT14 PHS'04 "I have no interest in being the fastest guy on the road, but I'll be right behind him." > <snip> > > I like this: "Create a new traffic infraction: incompetence. The [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Please don't. The first time you get cited for this, you'll come back here > whining about being a victim. But you missed the rest of it. Tickets with no revenue purpose other than to have you tested. Needless to say, something I'd pass with flying colors since I'm a law-abiding, smart driver, and I better be smart to survive in a small car in the jungle roads. I'm certainly not the I-give-a sh.t driver out there, going 40mph or talking on the phone on the highway. But back to the subject, which is PREDATION. I'm sure you don't belong to the bottom of the food chain. If you did, you'd be crying for a parking ticket for 28 bucks. 28 bucks! Let alone towing you on top of that! I'm telling you, man, it's a jungle out there! "They circle the block like vultures looking for hard working citizens to prey on." San Francisco Parking Tickets A Regressive Tax on Working Families San Francisco Parking Tickets are Evil Although San Francisco Parking Tickets are technically "law enforcement" - in reality it has little to do with enforcing the law and everything to do with picking the pockets of drivers. San Francisco has imposed what it probably an illeagal tax on drivers. The tax is a regressive tax in that poor working families are the hardest hit. The rich can easilly afford it and often have dedicated parking. Many of the people who are hardest hit are families with children where the parents need to have a family car in order to go to work and take their children to school and other activities. San Francisco Parking Tickets are really an unfair tax on drivers. It is a regressive tax on working families who are often barely managing to stay above poverty. What often happens to familes in San Francisco is tragic and pushes people down into poverty, desparation, and homelessness. Many families are driven out of town by the parking ticket tax. Parking Tickets can not be avoided and costs people a lot of money because there is simply no place to park and people don't have what is often hours to spend circling the block - polluting the air - looking for a place to park. If anyone should be fined it should be the city for not requiring that enough parking spaces be provided. But they take something that is their fault and use it as a way to victimize people who are just barely above the poverty line. They circle the block like vultures looking for hard working citizens to prey on. You may be legally parked hoping to be back in an hour - but you get held up and because it took an extra 5 minutes - San Francisco wants $50 from you. Street cleaning days produce millions of dollars for San Francisco as a small army of ticketing people proceed the street sweepers nabbing every car who didn't get out there in time to move it. Towing your Vehicle San Francisco oppresses poor working families further by booting or towing your car if you accumulate unpaid tickets. many families who are barely able to pay the high rents and taxes just don't have the extra funds to keep up on the tickets. And when you are late - the unpaid tickets double - then tripple in cost. Then when they come steal your car off the street there are towing and storage charges that are so high that these poor people lose their cars. Their cars are sold and the money is used to line the pockets of the elite insiders who have been picking the pockets of San Francisco tax payers for years. Fighting Back Here's what I want to do. I started this site but I'm looking for other people to take it over and run with it. I'll continue to host it. The action is in the discussion board where I hope people can organize. I see several fronts to fight back. First - there's protesting. We need some good ideas on how to do this and be effective. Then there's ways to make tickets less profitable - ways to make it expensive for them to enforce. but I think there's a good shot at a legal challenge. They are using what is supposed to be "law enforcement" to collect what is probably an illegal tax. Are there any lawyers out there who want to take this on? Anyhow - I just whipped this site together so enjoy and if you want to contribute - let me know. http://www.sfparkingtickets.com/ The Parking Authority preys on the Poor Like a predator they prey on the unsuspecting little animals. It happened to me... I was parked in front of my own apartment building, which--for no good rea$on--forbids parking from 9am to 5pm, and which--for the same rea$on--is a tow-away zone. (The zone is marked "loading zone," even though there's no loading or even a building there.) The buildings next door--where the lions live--got a great garage, but we poor don't even have the street... Anyway, I overslept that morning--having come from out of town the night before--until the shouts of my landlord woke me up to the fact that my car was being ticketed and about to be lifted by the tow truck--lion and fox working together. I tried to stop them--screamed, threw things out the window to get noticed--but they ignored me and lifted my car anyway. I argued that it was excessive punishment on the poor and the lady officer offered to dismiss the ticket--which I never touched--if I paid the tow truck. $40 on the spot. Oh, will I trust the fox again! A few weeks later I got a notification in the mail telling me to pay the ticket--with the appropriate late penalty... "A mistake," I thought. So I went to the Parking Authority with my complaint, sure it would be solved on the spot, but they said I had to go to court, and I had no choice. In the meantime I bumped into the officer twice and she assured me that she remembered everything, and would declare so in court. Oh, the fox--how cunning animal... Court day came and there we were, facing each other. "Piece of cake," I thought. I explained what happened, and she only said: "I never offered anything"... I almost exploded, of course, and wanted to surrender my driver's license on the spot and refused to sign at first because I don't like being prey. I was better advised by witnesses though who told me that would land me in jail... Appealing was an option, but an option that would cost me over $100. The lion always wins. So here I am, f***ed--thrice: the ticket, the towing truck, and a penalty for a ticket I never had a chance to pay on time. But hey, that's the harsh reality of life in the JUNGLE: "Kill before they kill you!" Huh? PS: The ticket was later dismissed by the directors of the Parking Authority. WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE http://committed.to/justiceforpeace COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1 >The Parking Authority preys on the Poor > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE >http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1 Another whinge by a stupid prey animal, who admits that she did wrong, but demands special attention. Because she's poor. Why is she poor? Well, let's see. She oversleeps, and she makes bad decisions. I wonder how much that carries over to the rest of her days? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >> <snip> >> > I like this: "Create a new traffic infraction: incompetence. The [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >the I-give-a sh.t driver out there, going 40mph or talking on the phone >on the highway. Your constant whining says you're not so smart. You can't make the decision to not park in a spot that will garner a fine and a tow. You try to tell us you can't read standard sized signs that anyone else can read. You obviously aren't law abiding, becasue you whinged about being caught disobeying the law. You're in a river in Egypt. >But back to the subject, which is PREDATION. I'm sure you don't belong >to the bottom of the food chain. If you did, you'd be crying for a >parking ticket for 28 bucks. 28 bucks! Let alone towing you on top of >that! I'm telling you, man, it's a jungle out there! And obviously you *are* on the bottom of the food chain. Can you figure out why? >"They circle the block like vultures looking for hard working citizens >to prey on." No, they circle the block looking for the stupid, who can't obey parking rules. SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" > >"They circle the block like vultures looking for hard working citizens > >to prey on." > > No, they circle the block looking for the stupid, who can't obey > parking rules. If you think it's "smart" to defend the predator, I don't want to see what stupid is. Unless you are yourself a PREDATOR, which would explain everything. ;) >> >"They circle the block like vultures looking for hard working >citizens [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >what stupid is. Unless you are yourself a PREDATOR, which would explain >everything. ;) Sure, now I'm the one who got your car towed. Amazing. How did you get your license? SignatureBill Funk Change "g" to "a" >>>"They circle the block like vultures looking for hard working > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > what stupid is. Unless you are yourself a PREDATOR, which would explain > everything. ;) But some predators take out their victims so they can't whine when it's over. a 30-06 with a 4x scope has been known to work well on human sized targets. SignatureMark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups. The Wogster wrote: > > Me propose bike lanes? The hardcore cyclists at bicycle groups want to > > HANG ME 'cause according to them they are NOT the solution, and I keep > > saying WE NEED BIKE LANES!!! Go figure! > > Not bike lanes, but bike ROADS, roads that are specifically built for > bike/trike use, a bike or trike only needs a lane 1m wide, so a two lane > bike road with sidewalks (also each about 1m wide) fits into about the > same space as a conventional road lane. It also has a maximum weight > requirement under 1000PSI. Good places for such a road is within the > right-of-way of hydro lines and major highways (where bikes are commonly > not allowed). Well, bike roads are separate bike paths, aren't they? We got one not far, but the problem comes at intersections where you have to run for your life. > >>Again, don't blame others for things you won't do. > > > > Someone is responsible for the mess. They get paid big bucks to get > > roads flowing and parking available, but they do neither one. I only > > see a predator on the hunt. > > Traffic planners have 3 major problems, politics, budget and > environmental concerns. Let me explain each. > > Politics, as a traffic planner you know the best way to run the traffic > flow is along Moneybags Lane and up Bigbucks Avenue. The problem is > that the people who live on Moneybags Lane and Bigbucks Avenue are the > people who donate to the politicians favourite charity (his own pocket, > or at least his re-election fund). So the traffic is routed along > Pennyless Avenue at 1/3 the effectiveness and 4 times the cost. Very ingenious. So you only see some results where the two parallel roads meet. ;) I see only them repaving and repaving--which causes even more chaos--and nothing like ALTERNATIVES, as you say below. > Budget, you know that the best way to handle a particularily nasty > corner is to build a bridge/tunnel or a traffic circle, but neither is > in the budget, because that was all spent running the traffic up > Pennyless Avenue. So you rejig the traffic lights yet again, and hope > for the best. Well, you can hope for the next budget and redouble your efforts to ticket people. More revenues will "eventually" lead to smarter alternatives, right? > Environmental concerns, there is something wrong with paving over the > landscape... However suppose we turn that into a smaller highway, add a > railway right of way, and a bike road? The railway right of way could > be used by local transit for street cars or light rail. > > The problem with traffic planning, is that you need to look at the > overall picture, and not just how to put out the latest fire. The only thing they plan for is a broke Social Security in order to privatize it. All other concerns (transportation, environment, etc) will "somehow" take care of themselves. Well, if there's fire, they can call 9-1-1, right? > > Hard to believe a driver will be aware of an obstacle the bicycle may > > have (unless is something like a refrigerator) but then again chances > > are he will give a damn. > > Car drivers often don't see much past their own bumpers, if they did > there would be a lot fewer collisions. Well, if there was ORDER in our roads, the budget for Moneybags Lane and Bigbucks Avenue would be threatened, wouldn't it? "Excellent idea! However, I don't think we should worry about revolution in South America How about the revolution right here in the United Slaves of America?" South America is more romantic, Zapata, Pancho Villa... How about the JALAPENO REVOLUTION for a name? Can you all take chili? Can you all take senoritas? > "Excellent idea! > However, I don't think we should worry about revolution in South [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > JALAPENO REVOLUTION for a name? Can you all take chili? Can you all > take senoritas? No way dude! It would mess with my 401K! Signature"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society" - Theodore Roosevelt > > "Excellent idea! > > However, I don't think we should worry about revolution in South [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > No way dude! It would mess with my 401K! What you mean, your run is more important than THE REVOLUTION? Come to think of it, I better take THE REVOLUTION to Iraq... ;) >From Pravda quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Gari-Gari Well, such "humanism advertise" as you call it is worthwhile a try and thought. Humanism used to be part of every development into a "golden age" of any discipline. In politics we are still very far from it. It is worthwhile to set intentions towards its coming about. Why not dream of something that, finally, - at *some* point will have to come about and may that be after a next big war.... Reminding myself again of the Dalai?s citation "Compassion is the only profitable way to practice egotism". We need such realizations of wisdom in politics. Cheers to all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Gari I've used the word HUMANISM perhaps thinking it can bridge differences. What a Muslim, a Christian and an Atheist all have in common? Right, WE ARE ALL HUMANS. There's no need impose one over the other, and it is perhaps these differences that make life interesting. Communism wished for a standard human being, and so is Capitalism, with its consumerism. Why Coke has to be the drink of the Iraqis if they got their own culture, as good--and more ancient--than any other? I can't think of a better word than HUMANISM. 'Utopia is the necessity to get over and break the barriers of the established order.' (http://www.spinninglobe.net/cousteau.htm) A ROAD TO FREEDOM (UNLIKE RUSSIA'S) Why not build a new system? That offers PROSPERITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and FREEDOM; that discards the defects of both Communism and Capitalism; and that places the system at the service of the human being, and not the other way around. Why not HUMANISM? Naturally, education and health care should be the maximum priorities; they should be free -or affordable, in the case of higher education- and accessible to all. Education should emphasize the learning of English -or Esperanto, if we all ever agree on it- and literacy... in computers. Likewise, culture and sports should receive special attention (for example, adopting the affordable child-care centers; in general, we would have much to learn from the Scandinavian model). A POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY, that includes competition and cooperation, would create a healthy competition, and it would allow to satisfy the material and human needs of all. (In this way, the cooperative enterprises would be forced to become more efficient, while capitalist enterprises would be forced to become more humane; we would have much to learn from the Israeli kibbutz [non-profit cooperatives]; and from the industrial cooperatives of Mondragon, in the Basque Country [a "workers capitalism"].) We should seek full employment (for instance, by creating jobs in the construction of the transportation infrastructure; but, if unemployment persists, the work time could be reduced). Public transportation should be A1. (The city of Curitiba, in Brazil, offers us a functional model of transportation; bicycle lanes should be implemented along all major streets.) The homeless, who now occupy our better parks, should be incorporated into light but necessary duties, like picking up litter, in exchange for a decent wage; there should be no homeless. (Again, Curitiba is a model on this.) Junk food should have a warning label (just like cigarettes), particularly the one destined to children, and also be taxed to subsidize healthy alternatives. Housing should be available at popular prices. (Prefabricated multifamily units can help accomplish this; the movement of "new urbanism" can provide them with a sense of community and quality of life, say by having abundant green areas.) Public corruption should be treated as "public enemy No.1." TV and radio should be independent of Big Business and the State. (This is due to two reasons: culturally, because the ratings make bad programs become "good"... for business; and, politically, because whoever has power over the media... will be in power; however, people should be able to watch anything on video and cable; the BBC offers us and example of an independent media.) The "Free Press" should be democratized, so that, among other things, the censorship of the opinions of the public is eradicated. Politics should become cheaper to avoid its control by powerful groups (for example, offering free time on TV to the candidates; we would have much to learn from the political model of Switzerland [in particular, its political decentralization and its opportunity to "vote with your feet" between cantons]). Politicians should live in the worst area they represent. Nevertheless, we should never follow neither anything nor anyone -including myself- blindly. And, of course, everything can be improved. Something to think about: While the prohibition of drugs has been largely ineffective and costly (in money, lives, crime), regulated legalization -like that of Holland- can be a better solution to both addiction and crime. And living free from fear of crime should be treated as a basic need of society. In general, our policy should be that of "teaching them how fish," not of "giving them the fish." The final form of this system would be determined by the acceptance of the people themselves: Each and everyone of these proposals should be submitted to referendum. And, the basis of everything else: We should learn to live, not FROM, but WITH Nature. This would amount to COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE. *** A COMMENT FROM A FRIEND: The system you describe sounds awfully good. I'd say no country is on the road you suggest, but it might be a good thing for world leaders to read your article, since it could give them some goals. What a wonder it'd be, for example, if George Bush announced some actual long-term goals for the country, instead of reacting to events in a knee-jerk fashion. I'm picking on George, but much the same can be said of most any world leader I know of. -Charles NOTE: I have intentionally provided several paths to prosperity and justice. DIFFERENT CULTURES, DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS. Scandinavia ranks #1 in standard of living, but that is due to having high taxes coupled with the lowest corruption in the world, something unlikely to be matched or even be desired by many... But other systems are available: First, the decentralized Swiss system* has a much lower taxation rate and introduces a very democratic principle among competitive cantons and communes: VOTE WITH YOUR FEET; second, the successful cooperatives that exist in places like Israel, Basque Country and Denmark. Coops are the ideal in that there's no lion in them and no need for regulation. The Scandinavian system though still provides the right priority for any other model: THE WELFARE OF MOTHERS AND CHILDREN. The Wogster wrote: > > In the case sited originally by donquixote above, the government enacted > > the CAFE standards but created separate classes for 'passenger vehicles' > > and 'light trucks'. One predictable result was that car makers switched > > many of their previous sales of passenger vehicles to the light truck > > category by creating SUVs and minivans. It's naive to think that there > > wouldn't be a similar shift to evade your proposed $8/gallon price > > differential between commercial and personal vehicles. I'd also note > > that there are lots of vehicles operated by businesses today that are > > driven with regular licenses, no special paint jobs or safety features, > > etc. Enacting a raft of regulations to make it "a big pain" for > > individuals to use the commercial vehicle loophole would also create a > > substantial burden for many current businesses. > > Okay the problem too many cotton picking SUV's on the cotton picking > road, a vehicle whos primary purpose seems to be to turn copious amounts > of gasoline into copious amounts of CO2 and NOX gas.... > > Solutions, include more vehicles under CAFE, but that will hurt truck > load capacities, and hurt businesses. Okay higher gas taxes, well that > will hurt business, so exempt business, but that will result in people > creating fake businesses to evade the new gasoline tax. > > Gotta better idea? The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. -- Iris Murdoch, The Red and the Green It's funny we got a long term plan for Social Security, but not for TRANSPORTATION ALTERNATIVES. Either good fortune (of our Saudi Arabia friends never having their oil refineries sabotaged) or the will of a wacko president (Chavez deciding he ain't going to sell us anymore), decide our future. I can only hope things go wrong, and the bicycle shall prevail. Why Consider Alternatives to the Automobile? An Introduction -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- how does a person become car-free (and car-averse)? Why did I, personally, finally get rid of my last car? I think it started when I read for the severalth time running that the Union of Concerned Scientists had ranked the private auto as second only to nuclear war among imminent threats to human (and other species') survival on Earth. I decided there had to be a saner way to get around, taking up less space, using less fossil fuel energy, emitting less pollution, etc. I knew one or two car-free, bike-based people whom I admired. I figured if they could do it, I could do it. I had already made the choice to accept lower pay in order to live near a job that I enjoyed; I already used bus and/or feet and/or bike every working day to commute. The basic choice, that of valuing quality of life over strictly monetary or "efficiency" considerations, was one I had already made. At the time when I gave up my last car, I was putting less than 2000 miles a year on it, less than the mileage on my trusty bike. The transition was almost imperceptible. My life didn't change much. This was not some dramatic epiphany on the road to Damascus: just the logical conclusion of a long, slow process of disaffection from the automotive mainstream. My focus in these pages is twofold. One is to participate in the on-going effort of challenging the supremacy of the automobile, whether on our roads or in our hearts. The other is to promote and encourage the use of bicycles. In my estimation, the bicycle is the single most cost-effective, powerful tool any individual can own or use to expand his or her personal freedom. In simplicity, frugality, practicality and sheer enjoyment it rates more highly than almost any other technological triumph of humanity's recent history. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- public transit My pages mostly aren't about public transit -- except insofar as I can take my bike with me :-) I take for granted that you don't need reminding that public transit is a great idea. Buses are OK, rail is even better. We need them. But we also need to be able to just walk out the door and go somewhere on a whim, without conforming to someone else's timetable -- to dinner, to the movies, to the cafe' to meet some friends -- to grab some fresh bread for dinner, to pick up some pizza, to the nearest hill to see the moon rise... whatever. Freedom means being able to Just Go, without waiting on a bus bench or consulting the schedule first. So what I am interested in is independent, unscheduled, ad hoc mobility for individuals, but without the use of cars. The question I asked myself is: How much of the vaunted personal freedom offered by the auto can we preserve, without the environmental debauchery inflicted by the auto industry and its infrastructure? Can I get to the doctor, the dentist, the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker -- the corner store, the beach, the library, the county building -- the post office, the supermarket, the vet, and the next county, without driving? The answer has turned out to be a resounding YES. It can be done! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- electric and hybrid vehicles In these pages I won't extol the virtues of converting traditional auto/truck bodies to electric power. I have been down this road. The "last car" which I sold some 18 months ago was actually a light pickup converted to electric propulsion. I had owned and used it for about 6 years. I built it myself. It was a fun project and a source of considerable satisfaction at the time, but I would never do this again. While I recommend EV conversions to those who really can't give up the large auto habit, it's no longer convincing to me as a solution to the Car Problem. The tailpipe emissions from ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles are only part of the Car Problem. Their size, weight, and speed all contribute to the living hell that too many cars create in a dense urban area. I do include some links to EV information sites, but personally I don't consider building/driving traditional EVs to be more than a bandaid effort. To create or preserve livable cities and towns, we simply have to forget the traditional passenger auto as a primary transport method -- no matter how it's powered. Digression: I'm sorry to say that both the Sierra Club and the Union of Concerned Scientists are shamelessly promoting "hybrid electric" cars as "green" vehicles that will solve all our environmental problems. This has caused me to terminate my membership in UCS. Those who are Sierra Club members may want to re-evaluate their relationship with that organization, after considering the weakness of the claims made for hybrid EVs and endorsed by the Club. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the future of urban freedom The bicycle and the ultralight multicyle (tris and quads) are suitable for human power (Human Powered Vehicles are abbreviated as HPV), or light electric assist (EAV). This, imho, is where the future of sustainable transportation lies. Inside city limits, we need to get people where they want to go in small, light, nimble, hyper-efficient vehicles. And preferably, vehicles that are more FUN than cars! http://www.ucolick.org/~de/AltTrans/ OK, here are the plans for THE REVOLUTION, which is to fix, once and for allk, all the problems we may find on the road, as well as outside the road. Kind of long, so grab a beer or two... john wrote: > FUNNY revolution, huh. Howdy John Si, Revolucion! ;) > No offense, but unless the Revolution retains enough of a political > State to field an army of some kind, and a pretty good army at that, > it's going to be crushed very quickly. No offense, constructive criticism is ALWAYS good. In this day and age armies are passe... Small, efficient guerrillas are in. They give a heck of a headache from Colombia to Iraq. In this last case a relatively large army didn't have a chance, small armed bands do. At least they can make governing a pain in the a.s, and may wear down foreign armies until they quit. The Swiss have such a defensive scheme. They let them it, and then each able-bodied citizen got a rifle, and the knowledge for sabotage, etc. They discourage any predator from coming in, by making it VERY COSTLY. All this would take the abhorrence to a predator or the adherence to AN IDEAL or both. In order to have a better chance though you must not only be AGAINST something but FOR something. And I have thought convenient to provide the people with A POLITICAL PLATFORM. They like it and they must defend it against predators. They don't need a leader the way they need Chavez or Castro, say, which are Caudillista's Revolution. The people are the leaders!!! But I must say, that in a TRULY POPULAR CAUSE (I got children aged 9 reading this), there's not even need for violence. And there are so many weapons in the arsenal of NONVIOLENCE, from boycotts to general strike, that hopefully there would be no need for violence. In reality, VIOLENCE FEEDS THE LION, becoming its validation and its profit... > Maybe by capitalists, maybe by fascists (the fate of the anarchist > revolution in Spain, I believe), maybe by Communists (the fate of the > anarchist revolution in the Ukraine in 1919), maybe by someone else. I ain't purely anarchist though. I believe that NONBUREAUCRATIC MEANS should be preferred, but a government OWNED BY THE PEOPLE is simply necessary. I say that we can have a TAMED LION (government) alongside NON-LION INSTITUTIONS (such as coops). And these institutions are complementary via a MINISTRY OF COOPERATIVES. > Orwell himself was close to being an anarchist, I believe. And I love > his "Animal Farm." But in "Animal Farm," the Pigs really do succeed, > and the workers really do not win in the end. And I don't see that > "Animal Farm" or "1984" offers any formula for preventing this. I like Orwell. He's the model for this, both against the Mr. Jones and the pigs, as well as in the animal language. I see he provides the lessons to be learned in Animal Farm: Do Not Trust the Pigs!!! To bring the example to the real word: If you live in Venezuela, do not trust Chavez, as well as the lions that preceded him! Orwell said, "All saints are guilty until proven innocent." ;) > As an alternative to both non-functional anarchism -- anarchism that > cannot defend itself -- and dysfunctional Leninism/Stalinism -- > "socialism" that bases itself on a one-party state, and soon finds that > absolute power corrupts absolutely -- I suggest American-style > republican federalism, but with a socialist/anarchist economy rather > than a capitalist and competitive one. I like that. Instead though I'd create competition between Libertarians and Anarchists. That is, we are both ANTI-LION (anti-authoritarians), and should COEXIST since you can not ban capitalism by decree. Moreover, you'd prevent rebellion by coopting them. So who's the enemy? The enemy is the MONOPOLISTIC LION, represented both in COMMUNISM AND CONSERVATISM. The Political Compass helps visualize the issue... http://www.politicalcompass.org/ I, like you, lie on the left-lower quadrant, but some people may hover toward the right, which is OK. Otherwise we both would be vigilant of tendencies toward authoritarianism, which is declared "lion territory"... I mean, the Proles understand this in this jungle language, and even children can be educated in that belief. We can even tell our children, "If you don't behave the lion will eat you!" ;) > In the United States today, obviously there are all kinds of problems > with economic injustice and exploitation and centralized political [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and the independent judiciary, and with the various state governments > often acting in opposition to the federal government -- does preserve a > remarkable protection for political dissent and political freedom. > > Would-be dictators and autocrats do appear -- George Bush and Tom Delay > seem obvious examples today -- and yet the existence of multiple power > centers in the system ensures that they are usually brought to heel, > often by equally corrupt and autocratic rivals who simply want the same > kinds of goodies for themselves. Neither the Republicans nor the > Democrats is particularly representative of the people, and yet their > chronic competition keeps any individual pol, like Stalin, or any > individual party, like the old Communist Party of the USSR, from > getting a permanent iron grip on all > power and putting all its opponents in jail. I totally agree with you, only that Switzerland is a better model. Perhaps the biggest difference is that there their politics are better insulated from BIG MONEY. It would require, first of all, an enlightened citizenry, so the BANANA REPUBLIC we got now can be avoided. I know, for example, many old ladies who, on cue from the radio, voted Bush in over Bush's tough talk toward Castro... > There are abuses of people's political and civil rights all the time, > and the courts obviously are gamed for the benefit of the rich. Yet [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > success; such a long-despised group as gays and lesbians has a chance > to battle for legal and social acceptance, etc. I'd say we need a system where opposition is not only TOLERATED, but WELCOME. I hand out my flier and I'm still alive, but I get roared at all the time. It seems like I'm not welcome by the big fish... :) > Thanks to the US military, moreover, and thanks to a horrible panoply > of intelligence agencies that supplement its power, no foreign > conqueror is likely to take over the United States and take away > American liberties, such as they are. Instead, the main danger to > those liberties lies in the American state itself. Which is more than > the poor inhabitants of Afghanistan, Iraq, Panama, Tibet, Chechnya, > etc. can say. > > I think American radicals, confronted with the obvious political > virtues of American federalism/republicanism, are fools if we jettison > the clear POLITICAL and LIBERTARIAN virtues of this system for the > failed promise of Leninist "proletarian dictatorship" or the > chronically unfulfilled promises of anarchism. Regardless of whether > it's nonviolent anarchism, the old bomb-throwing syndicalism of the > 1890s, the Catholic anarchism of Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker > movement, or whatever. I say America doesn't need radicalism. If it only were like Canada, a pacifist nation involved in the well being of its citizens, we wouldn't have a problem. And I believe we can do even better than Canada by establishing ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY (EconomicDemocracy.org). > What we need to create a viable post-capitalist, anti-capitalist world > is not the same kind of strategy that got the Spanish anarchists and > Ukrainian anarchists killed in the 1920s and 1930s and that never [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What we need is revolutionary social democracy -- an ANTI-IDEALISTIC, > ANTI-PERFECTIONIST, corrupt, opportunistic, "populist" social democracy > that will look at society realistically and make the American Republic > and its anti-authoritarian political machinery work for the sake of the > majority of the people, and not mostly for the wealthy and the > corporations. Well, it sounds like I propose (http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1). > Such a revolutionary social democracy could be just as "constitutional" > as Justice Scalia, but with a bias towards putting the workers and > consumers in charge of the economy rather than the top 5% of the > wealthiest families. We could have a Socialist Democratic Party and a > Socialist Republican Party regularly contending in elections, neither > one of them led by saints. We could have a socialist Senate, a > socialist House of Representatives, a socialist White House and a > socialist Supreme Court, each of them jealously guarding its powers > against all the others. Funny, a right-wing president like Chiraq is to the left of Kerry, which goes to tell you what kind of ultra-right vs. super-right presidencial race we got. Kerry is also found in the Conservative quadrant of the Political Compass. :( You talk about SOCIALISM, but I believe it won't work here. Our political foxes are too corrupt for that. We should introduce good-old-fashioned COMPETITION, Economic Democracy for all. Then workers will have the choice to work for a lion and live in the jungle (trust me, it's a jungle out there), or work together in coops and share the good life. Something similar is found in the kibbutz, where people can have a great life without money! Nevertheless, pure coops (like Mondragon) where they share the profits, shoud also exist. I'll put it another way. The Statist Lion will be tamed by Competition, not by regulation, which is socialism. > We could provide the unconstructed capitalists among us with just as > much liberty, democracy and influence as the capitalists now provide to > the American left - that is, the forces of the left would own and > control all of the major industries and all of the major mass media > outlets and the court system and the police forces of the country, but > we would allow the capitalists to own and publish about six or seven > small magazines and to operate about as many storefront offices in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would infiltrate the capitalists and horribly violate their civil > rights. That's what I said before. But they would be FREER than now. To begin with, I second nowadays their proposal for LEGALIZING MARIJUANA, UNREGULATED HIGHWAY SPEEDS (but we need traffic laws for that to happen), GUNS SWISS STYLE (but not handguns), and best of all their money not being dilapidated in foreign wars. > Then ten or twenty years later, once the bad guys were effectively > crushed, we could have a national orgy of breast-beating and repentence > and bemoan the terrible thing that had been done to the right in a > moment of national panic, and the socialist ACLU and the socialist > Supreme Court could solemnly declare that nothing so destructive of > democracy must ever, ever, ever be allowed to occur in the United > States again. Which would mean that we could effectively squelch real > subversion, but still allow most ordinary people astonishing amounts of > political and intellectual freedom most of the time. The bad guys are the MONOPOLISTIC LION. The lion is OK, just not monopolistic. The Libertarian Lion, for example, can have their own cantons like in Switzerland, where, naturally their laws will prevail. And then people VOTE WITH THEIR FEET AMONG CANTONS. There may be a ratio of 10-1 anarchist-libertarian cantons, for example, but they are just as good. > In short, a revolutionary socialist democratic government, so long as > it was willing to be sufficiently hypocritical, two-faced and > inconsistent, could provide most Americans with just as much liberty as > they enjoy today. Which is the only reason that most Americans would > support us, as they are never going to support a wholesale > reconstruction of society along anarchist lines. It depends. I call anarchist lines living in a coop by free will. That's it. If it were to IMPOSED on the people, then we would be the lion. But, our slogan is "no lion no problem!" > Because ordinary Americans really do have some preferences for > decentralized government and control over their own local affairs, > however, we could also have the social democratic government subsidize > and facilitate local experiments in communal living and decentralized > decision-making and the like. Exactly, what I've talking about. > It would be like Bush's "faith based initiative," except the > beneficiaries would be different. Or it would be like pork-barrel > transportation spending and Corps of Engineers water probjects today, > except it would be "black and green" pork, libertarian social justice > pork, instead of big construction projects. When the grants for small > community-building subsidies were loaded onto a huge Christmas tree of > a corrupt spending bill in the House of Representatives, the sponsors > would call them "demonstration projects," and they would get about as > much scrutiny as most "demonstration projects" and "pilot projects" > funded by Congress receive today. The Water Well is better than the Dam. Real Solutions for Real Needs and most importantly, no WASTEFUL BUREAUCRACY. > In other words, a green and revolutionary social democratic government, > dominated by two somewhat corrupt and hypocritical green political > parties, both probably dependent on large worker-controlled > enterprises, could in fact promote many of the goals of anarchism. But > it would do so within a statist context, within a traditional American > governmental context that has been show to work, kind of. I think the forces must be bottom-up, the basic democratic unit being the coop. If it works, then is duplicated thousands of times. Democracy may be corrupt up there (and it sure will) but down here in the coop we have real and honest DIRECT DEMOCRACY. > And of course, there would be a green revolutionary Pentagon and a > green revolutionary CIA, NSA, Homeland Security Dept. etc. to ensure > that if any capitalist or fundamentalist religious foreigners tried to > crush this experiment in human liberation, the invaders would have > their butts whipped. Probably by proud NRA members, Southern good old > boys and tough ghetto youth who were proud of their fighting skills, > and proud to put them at the service of the greatest country and the > greatest government in the world. If people really believed in the system, and the system didn't have a lion, there would be hardly any need for coercion, for there would be little to fear other than THE REAL BAD GUYS. But the real bad guys know they don't have a chance so they give up, and go and live with the Libertarian cantons, where they are not considered real bad, unless they want to mess with them too. ;) > That kind of "total revolution," I think, might conceivably make sense. > It might possibly work. If idealistic anarchist youth want to go back > in history and recreate the history of Brook Farm or the Amana Colonies > or the Oneida Community or the Shakers or the Ukrainian communes, > however - well, what happened to those early experiments in anarchist > cooperation? Weren't all of them failures? And yet the kibbutz exist and the Mondragon coops are thriving, as are thousands of coops and employee-owned enterprises around the world. What we need is a MINISTRY OF COOPERATIVES, and, of course, THE REVOLUTION to make it all possible. ;) (Please break it down into topics since I really get tired by long posts. Thanks!) The Wogster wrote: > > So you don't haver the SUV fad up there? I guess here no decent lion > > goes around without one. > > We have SUVs, just there is slightly more justification for them up > here, especially if you live outside the city. Mind you I had an Uncle > with 4x4 and a cap on it, back in the 1960's sort of an early poor mans > SUV, those are still amazingly popular, and half of them have a plow > attachment for winter use. I guess because of that, the low end SUVs > are not as popular, if you wanna show that you have a lot of money > though, you see a few Escalades, usually at gas stations (strangely > enough)..... I can understand some people DO need SUVs though big, fat luxury Escalades are hardly the stuff you would need in the real jungle. Their wheel base, for one, is too long to handle rough terrain. The jungle they are meant to handle is the Darwinian roads, where they are really the King of the Jungle. > > Maybe too many of them down here to stand out. And then they all look > > the same behind the tinted window of the SUV. The thieves/kidnappers > > will never know if someone is there or not!!!! ;) > > One thing, here the tint on the windshield and front side windows must > allow the driver to be visible. This is for safety reasons. I still > don't understand why, in a gun happy nation like the USA, they allow you > to have heavy window tints, where it's easy to lower a window enough to > point a gun through..... They are hardly used for killing and maiming other than in the accidents they provoke. A piece of advice is to stay away from them. > Of course there are other differences between Canada and the USA, > sensible gun laws are one, and we have, generally, prettier women..... It must be the diet. They eat a lot of banana? We got a Banana Revolution... ;) http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote40 > >>I once saw, on a highway a older woman, yapping on a cell phone and > >>applying makeup while attempting to drive at 125km/h. Where's a cop > >>when you need one.... > > > > Here's common place. You said they are trying to ban it, or did ban it > > up there, right? That would still leave you with a jungle, but not the > > deep jungle, where no rules apply and size matters. > > There are other things, seatbelt use is well over half, so airbags > actually work, there are rules, and some of them do get followed. For > example here in Toronto, there are red-light cameras, you run a red, and > a camera takes a picture of your donkey plate, and the owner gets a > ticket. Of course if it's your car and someone else is driving, you can > always make them pay the fine. Canadians in general are more law > abiding. I find it strange, that people actually do what they do > sometimes though. No, I mean, you seem to be far ahead of your southern neighbor, but still won't do ELEMENTARY, BUT IMPORTANT things like LANE DISCIPLINE. WHY??? > Years ago, they started a program called RIDE (Reduce Impaired Driving > Everywhere), the police will block off a street, typically during > Christmas drinking season, and check EVERY driver for alcohol. No > alcohol they typically give you a coupon book, or an ice scrapper, and > send you on your way. If your over .05 and under .08 then they will > tell you to park it, and come back for your car when your sober, your > not allowed to drive for 12 hours. Of course a couple of sober family > members can pick you and your car up, and take you home. If your over > .08 then your formally charged with DUI. Ride still catches several > hundred every year, but it's a lot less then what they caught the first > year...... It sounds reasonable, but people should have appropriate alternatives to driving. They have a program here with "free taxi" at Christmas, which I don't know if it works or not. So it shows not all is bad in the jungle. > > I can imagine the sign: "The old lady with the phone, would you please > > pull out of the road until you finish your stupid conversation?" > > That would go over well.... How 'bout, "The fat man with the SUV, would you please get off the stupid thing and ride a bicycle for a change?" The Wogster wrote: > > I can understand some people DO need SUVs though big, fat luxury > > Escalades are hardly the stuff you would need in the real jungle. Their > > wheel base, for one, is too long to handle rough terrain. The jungle > > they are meant to handle is the Darwinian roads, where they are really > > the King of the Jungle. > > I can understand a 4X4 especially if you live somewhere where your on a > country road that gets plowed once in December and once in February, you > know, when the roof of your neighbours Honda disappears, but when you > live on the same street as the mayor, your MP and the Provincial Prime > Minister (opps sorry, your American, the mayor, your representative and > the governor), so it gets plowed when they are forecasting a storm, it > really isn't needed...... Now if you live somewhere like a South > American jungle, then 4 wheel drive may also be needed, but then your > more likely to buy an experienced Range rover or one of those Jungle > Toyotas you sometimes see on the Telly. I just saw on TV something that really saddened me: The Inuits of the Artic show the highest pollution in the world. How come? Well, the pollution from the South--yeah, that filthy stuff left behind by the dinosaur--evaporates and travels to the North where the cold air makes it fall. Then their children are breastfed these chemicals, spewed out by the lions parading in their SUVs and motorboats. They are asking the world to listen but nobody gives a damn, at least not those who can change things. The revolution is not something for the South, it's also for the North. > > We got a Banana Revolution... ;) > > http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote40 > > Don't know about Banana, I think it's the fresh cold air...... In the South is banana (you got to see Caribbean women) but up there must be the syrup. Yeah, maple syrup, which is very delicious over hot pancakes... ;) > Then again Buffalo is just as cold, and their women are butt ugly. You mean in the morning, or all day long? > > No, I mean, you seem to be far ahead of your southern neighbor, but > > still won't do ELEMENTARY, BUT IMPORTANT things like LANE DISCIPLINE. > > WHY??? > > Driver stupidity, and bad planning. The problem is the right lane keeps > disappearing. So the kind of driver that isn't familiar with the > highway, has to keep moving left, so they tend to park themselves in the > left most lane, which puts them as far as possible from the traffic > merges in the right most lane, which keeps disappearing. This means that > faster traffic needs to move right in order to pass, and that means you > have high speed traffic in the merge lanes. This actually works > amazingly well, considering at it's busiest point (between Keele St and > Weston Road in Toronto) it handles some 380,000 vehicles per day. There > are usually fewer then a dozen fender benders on a given day..... Well, if it wors, you got it right. But zigzaging is deadly, and you see it here all the time. Well, you see ANYTHING here. > > It sounds reasonable, but people should have appropriate alternatives > > to driving. They have a program here with "free taxi" at Christmas, > > which I don't know if it works or not. So it shows not all is bad in > > the jungle. > > Usually they do, for example here in Toronto, there is an excellent > award winning transit system, and you can always call a cab. > Realistically though, if your planning on going to someones party, throw > a sleeping bag and a pillow into the car, and if you drink too much, > just roll up in your sleeping bag until you sober up.... I guess, or perhaps bars shouldn't have a parking lot so you don't get there by car in ther first place. Of course, education is the main thing. > > How 'bout, "The fat man with the SUV, would you please get off the > > stupid thing and ride a bicycle for a change?" > > > How about this one, "yo fat guy, park the SUV and walk to the beer store!" And this one, "hey filthy pig in the SUV, you are poisoning innocent kids." |
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