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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / February 2006

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"In the Tank" Fuel Pump Problems

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geezer57@_noemail_.com - 28 Jan 2006 05:21 GMT
This is a 86 Olds Cutlass Ciera with the 4cyl engine with fuel
injection.  About 2 years ago I replaced the fuel pump "In the tank"
type. About a week later the damn thing died again.  I got it at Napa,
and it was warranteed, but I had to do all the labor a second time and
was not thrilled.  I was told by a mechanic that the Napa in tank fuel
pumps are notorious for failure, and said they had at least 3 of them
fail within one week or less of installing them.  He said they stopped
using the Napa pumps after that.  

So here I am two years later and once again have a dead fuel pump in
that same car.  (Or should I say WEAK pump, because it does put out a
little gas with the line disconnected, but comes out in a dribble).  
Either way, I'm tired ot these fuel pumps.  I will buy another brand
if I have to, but I'd like to completely do away with that in the tank
pump, and replace it with a standard fender mounted electric fuel
pump.  Is this possible?  Or what I should say is WILL IT WORK?

If it can be done, mounting the pump and connecting the lines and
wires it is pretty basic. What I'm not sure about, is what to do
inside the tank.  Obviously the pump inside the tank has to be removed
and somehow the line needs to go to the bottom of the tank, Or, is
there a way to modify that old pump so it just serves as a gas pickup?

Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
Has anyone done it?
cselby@mts.net - 28 Jan 2006 08:43 GMT
The pump runs at about 15 lbs for a 4 cyl. throttle body injector and
at about 40 lbs for ported injectors.   These are typically called
'high' pressure pumps that are mounted inside the tank.   I've heard
several reasons for tank mounting - they run hot and the fuel cools
them, they are great pressure pumps but do badly as suction pumps like
the remote ones, are put in the tank because it costs less, run noisy
outside the tank.   The fender mounted ones run between 3 - 7 lbs for
carburated engines.  You problem may be getting a 'high' pressure
external pump.

Pete
Mike Romain - 28 Jan 2006 14:37 GMT
You should check with the companies that make the external pumps.  They
have the correct pressure one for your vehicle or one with a pressure
regulator you can set right.

I am not 100% sure, but I believe the old pump can just be left in place
as gas will pass through it under suction ok.  The makers of the pumps
will know.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> This is a 86 Olds Cutlass Ciera with the 4cyl engine with fuel
> injection.  About 2 years ago I replaced the fuel pump "In the tank"
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
> Has anyone done it?
geezer57@_noemail_.com - 29 Jan 2006 05:37 GMT
Thanks Mike and everyone that replied.

Do you have any idea what companies would carry something like this?
I am not going to break down again because of those crappy in-tank
pumps.  The last time I nearly froze to death.  I live in the country,
way back in the boonies.  It was 20 below zero and I had to walk home
about 3 miles.  If it were not for a cattle barn I might have not made
it. (cows keep a barn kind of warm).  

I have always driven the old carbureted big V8 engines, and you can
always limp them home.  Not these fuel injected things.  In fact I
phoned a mechanic today.  He lives out of state.  He told me horror
stories about these in tank pumps.  He said they just suddenly die and
you're done driving. (I know that for fact). He told me that my other
option would be to do what he did.  He got a spare gas tank off a
junked car, with the fuel pump in it. Ran a wire from the fuel pump
back there with a switch.  Then he kept enough gas hoses in the trunk
so he could run them to the engine and swap them with the lines that
go to the injectors.  He said there are 2 hoses, one is a return. Then
he kept a siphon hose in the car.  If he broke down, he siphoned the
gas into the spare tank, connected the 2 hoses, flipped the switch and
was ready to drive home.  That makes sense.  The only thing I forgot
to ask is where he ran the hoses so they didn't drag down the road.
I'll have to ask him.

But I do know that I dont trust these pumps after my second breakdown
in 2 years, and while I could easily change the old carburetor fuel
pumps almost anywhere, you cant do these like that, and the Olds dont
have a panel in the floor like some of the foreign cars.  (although I
have considered making one).

Thanks Again

------------------

>You should check with the companies that make the external pumps.  They
>have the correct pressure one for your vehicle or one with a pressure
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>> Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
>> Has anyone done it?
Mike Romain - 29 Jan 2006 15:49 GMT
Well, a quick search at Google shows 1,190,000 hits for external pumps.
I would just read up on a few that indicate they replace the in tank
ones.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=external+fuel+pumps&meta=

Folks with older Jeeps are putting FI systems and new pumps in all the
time.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> Thanks Mike and everyone that replied.
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> >> Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
> >> Has anyone done it?
geezer57@_noemail_.com - 30 Jan 2006 06:26 GMT
While I do appreciate all help in this matter and do not mean to be
sarcastic, 1190000 hits would probably take me 20 years or more, and
that dont take into account all those useless sites that link from one
link to the next indefinately and never get to the point.

I spent a good 7 hours over the weekend using google and other search
engines to try to find something.  I used all the minus symbols on
google to eliminate all the blogs and ebay ads, and more.
I found NOTHING.

Lots of electric (low pressure) fuel pumps for carbureted engines,
quite a few in the tank types, a gazillion mechanical pumps, and even
with the filters, lots of useless chit chat discussion groups and
blogs that say nothing.

Google has its limitations, and this is one time I find it useless.
If I specify (using quotes) exact words, I get nothing.  Otherwise I
get a flood of trash.  It would be easier to find a needle in a
haystack in this case.

Geezer

>Well, a quick search at Google shows 1,190,000 hits for external pumps.
>I would just read up on a few that indicate they replace the in tank
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>> >> Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
>> >> Has anyone done it?
Mike Romain - 02 Feb 2006 22:08 GMT
Ok I was bored and curious so I took a couple minutes and browsed the
links.

I found that you cannot use the old pump as a pickup if it is a positive
displacement pump.  It could restrict the flow and is best got rid of.

I found that there are speed shops that sell a drop tube pickup
replacement for the pump that fit the opening with a return line but
they are pricey.  There also is an issue with the tank not having a
cornering well so if you run the tank low and take a highway exit, you
might run the pump dry and stall.

If it was mine, I think I would put a gas tank in it from a wrecker that
was designed for the carb engine.  This will have the proper pickup and
internal tank design.  Most have a return line like the electric one, or
you could easily put a fitting in for the return line.  You could even
go with a new tank and pickup.

The return line is the part that normally controls the pressure from the
pump so is needed.

I then would just put a pump and inline filter on the frame rail and
hook it up to the stock lines with the pump power from the tank pump's
power.  The gas gauge hookup could be the same and 'might' even be
halfway accurate.  It can be adjusted with resistors sometimes if needed
or just gotten used to.

If you still have the box from the last pump, it will tell the flow rate
on it or you could just go to the store and ask to look at the stock one
to get the numbers off it, then you just get an inline one that pumps at
least the same.

Just some thoughts....

Mike

> While I do appreciate all help in this matter and do not mean to be
> sarcastic, 1190000 hits would probably take me 20 years or more, and
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
> >> >> Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
> >> >> Has anyone done it?
David Dowell - 01 Feb 2006 01:35 GMT
Go down to Autozone and ask for a pump to fit a1985 Mercury Marquis 302 V8
fuel injected engine.  Besure and ask for the external pump.  Take a look at
it.  It is designed to fuel a TBI system and should work fine for your Olds.

> Thanks Mike and everyone that replied.
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>>> Does anyone have any info or tips about this?
>>> Has anyone done it?
 
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