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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2006

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Gas War - Fight Back - Read This PLEASE

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News Surfer - 20 Apr 2006 02:02 GMT
We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
time we as the consumer send a clear message to the oil barons that we're
not going to take it any more! the price of crude oil has reached an
all-time high! let's all put an end to it now. who's with me? i'm not buying
gas until the price drops by at least 15 cents a liter. i'll ride my bike
and do whatever it takes. make your voice heard.

BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
Doug&Michelle - 20 Apr 2006 02:19 GMT
Gas stations wont loose a dime neither will the oil companies cause after
those 2 days of boycotting you will need that much more fuel most people
cannot ride to work or school.or evenb ttake the bus with the crappy bus
service here it wont them at all
This may be the wrong thinking but its my thoughts
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
> stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
BigBird - 20 Apr 2006 02:24 GMT
no but here is an idea that will work

just support the little gas stations and not the major brand names
Kent - 20 Apr 2006 03:43 GMT
> no but here is an idea that will work
>
> just support the little gas stations and not the major brand names

You realize that most of the stations are now franchises, owned by the operators,
not the oil companies? most of them are lucky to keep more than 1 or 2 cents a
liter. Even the "independents" still buy their gas from the same trucks, there's
no "independent oil company" filling their tanks every night. No matter who you
buy from, and who you avoid, the same money is going to end up going to the same
companies at the well-head.

The only reasonable answer is to use less. Yes the bus system is imperfect, but
the reason it sucks is because nobody uses it. We used to have excellent bus
service 20-40 years ago, but now everyone figures they are entitled to drive
because the whole world wants to live like they are middle-class. Less than
$400.00 a year gets you a pass you can use whenever you want. Less than almost any
plates cost. Even adding in another hundred a month for a few cab rides, or gas
for a friend to take you shopping, and it's still going to be less than the cost
of regular maintenance, gas and replacing a 10 year old vehicle every few years
for a couple of thousand.

We are all so wrapped up in how we have the right to drive everywhere and how the
government ought to stick it to the oil companies and make them lower their
prices, that we fail to look at whether there is any cost benefit to driving. Yes,
some people need to drive. That's going to be a fact of life for some time to
come, but most of us don't need to drive at all.

Once you factor in how much of your tax money goes into supporting repairs and
construction of new roads, (on top of the outrageous cost of cars, licensing and
insurance, and before you even get to the gas pump.) cars are one of the least
efficient things modern man has ever produced. I cringe at billions of tons of oil
used each year to make or repair mile after mile of ashphalt, including nice wide
paved shoulders and double lanes so nobody has to go a fuel efficient speed. Aside
form your ownership/insurance/maintenance/fuel costs, less traffic = less wear and
tear on roads, fewer repairs, fewer accidents resulting in health care costs,
fewer pollution related costs like lung problems.

Until people are prepared to accept that fossil fuel was always a fleeting, and
flawed, experiment, there won't be any progress in dealing with the real issues.
That likely won't happen until it becomes a crisis. No one had gasoline 150 yeas
ago, and no one will 50 years from now. I know most people are sick and tired of
the whole "sustainability" debate, but until the voters demand that governments
get their heads out of their a$$es about the simple mathematics of the impending
need for  alternatives to fossil fuels, we aren't going to have any real progress
toward a plan for the second half of this century. 40 years might seem like a long
time now, but wait until we get there and all the gas is gone unless you can shell
out $100.00 a liter.

We are likely in the last year when more new reserves will be found than the
annual global increase in how much oil gets consumed, if not, it will be 2007.
Either way, the available pool of oil is going to get smaller, not bigger.
Southeast Asia is increasing consumption at a phenomenal rate. Anyone who thinks
gas prices are too high today is going to be either psychopathic or suicidal in a
couple of years.

Kent
robrjt - 20 Apr 2006 15:03 GMT
Billshit.  Profits per gallon are the better part of  $1.  It used to
be a few cents per gallon.
The corp greed in endemic in all monopolies.  Healthcare and oil,  the
the system just redistributes capital from the workers pockets to the
execs of the monopolies.
the only good thing about the CEOs of Healthsouth and Exxon is they
will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they
each get...
W - 20 Apr 2006 15:31 GMT
Well two observations,

First, oil company profits have gone up in the hundreds of percent, we
are being gouged.

A tractor-trailer unit will use over $500 per day or more, compared to
the small amounts commuters use.  Yes they all add up, there is no doubt
about it, but the world is not going to stop over fuel prices though,
this has been proven several times over, look at Europe, for example.

You want to send a message?  STOP BUYING AND DRIVING BIG VEHICLES!!
Vehicles that get <25mpg and cost $50k are a problem.  Buy small, drive
less, cut your costs.  THIS sends a message because not only are the oil
companies not making as much money because the customer is using less,
but also the car companies make less on guzzler sales.

THe question I have is why does a gallon of fuel increase in price, but
never a quart of oil?!

W

> Billshit.  Profits per gallon are the better part of  $1.  It used to
> be a few cents per gallon.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they
> each get...
jcr - 21 Apr 2006 00:38 GMT
> On  4/20/2006 10:03 AM ...  robrjt  wrote:
> Billshit.  Profits per gallon are the better part of  $1.  It used to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they
> each get...

If you have a 401(k) plan, sit back and enjoy the profits.  The "they"
you speak of is, well *us*, the stock holders or mutual fund we hold
that own the oil and oil services stocks.
someone@someplace.com - 21 Apr 2006 07:30 GMT
>Billshit.  Profits per gallon are the better part of  $1.  It used to
>be a few cents per gallon.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they
>each get...

Yeah and just think of the trillians that the Bush family is getting.
They are the biggest oil tycoons in the world,  And guess what....
this was all planned....
As long as that son of a bitch stays in power, our lives and out
country will continue to fall apart.
jcr - 21 Apr 2006 23:16 GMT
> On  4/21/2006 2:30 AM ...  someone@someplace.com  wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> As long as that son of a bitch stays in power, our lives and out
> country will continue to fall apart.

Bush's income taxes were made public last week, he didn't make that
much.  Guess again.
Kent - 21 Apr 2006 12:50 GMT
> Billshit.  Profits per gallon are the better part of  $1.  It used to
> be a few cents per gallon.

Over the last four years I've watched a close friend's life's savings whittled
away on living expenses as he and partner try to make a go of a marginal gas
station. It is the only gas station in a 20 block radius, at the centre of a large
suburban area, but they didn't realize how little the stations themselves make
from gas, and they are on the corner beside a very large pharmacy/confectionery
that gets all the pop/chips money. Last year they switched from being part of a
chain to being independent, which reduced the chain costs, but slightly increased
the amount they pay for the gas.

The large profits you speak of are going to the oil companies, not to the person
operating the service station. Exxon doesn't give a f*** where you buy your gas.
They are going to get their money.

Kent
jcr - 21 Apr 2006 23:18 GMT
> On  4/21/2006 7:50 AM ...  Kent  wrote:
>  > Billshit.  Profits per gallon are the better part of  $1.  It used to
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Kent

I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your
401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon.  At $75 a barrel, much
of the $$$ are going to Saudi Arabia.
Kent - 22 Apr 2006 00:24 GMT
> I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your
> 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon.  At $75 a barrel, much
> of the $$$ are going to Saudi Arabia.

I wish.

1) I'm Canadian so it would be my RRSP, not a 401k

2) I have very little American content in my RRSP (which was limited to 20%
foreign holdings until recently), and what I do have is medical or tech, not
mutuals or resource based.

Kent
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:28 GMT
>> I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your
>> 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon.  At $75 a barrel,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 20% foreign holdings until recently), and what I do have is medical or
> tech, not mutuals or resource based.

My Canadian mutual funds (in RRSP) have done bangers over the past few
months mainly due to high oil prices.

Still, I would rather see oil consumption go down than my RRSP's go up
on oil.  We're wasting oil, not using it responsibly.

Alan
jcr - 24 Apr 2006 02:42 GMT
> On  4/23/2006 4:28 PM ...  Alan Browne  wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Alan

Consumption will eventually go down some at these prices.
Alan Browne - 29 Apr 2006 22:09 GMT
>>>> I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your
>>>> 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon.  At $75 a barrel,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Consumption will eventually go down some at these prices.

But the fundamental problem will remain.  Oil is not only getting harder
to find and harder to extract, it remains a finite, non-renewable
resource.  And it pollutes.  There is every good reason to be
collectively smart about oil, but we are collectively stupid.

A lawyer in a large SUV driving to his downtown office is wasting a
couple gallons a day, every day of the year.  Since the 80's the US
proportion of cars to light trucks (minivans, pickups, SUV's) has goen
from 70-30 to 51-49.  And the number of vehicles has increased 30%
overall.  Many of the "light trucks" are not included in CAFE and are
much less efficient than cars.  Increase weight 5% = increase
consumption 10% (rule of thumb).

Imagine a poor family that has a car that they need to earn their
living.  They face rising gas prices and it forces them to eat less (or
less nutritiously), clothe less well, get less health coverage, less
education...

Every dollar wasted on gas is a dollar that is not being spent where
that poor family probably earns its money.  Say the poor family
breadwinner works in a restaurant as an assistant cook.  Less people
will eat out, the restaurant has to pay rising delivery charges (or
spend more on pickups), eventually he's let go.  This is a simplistic
illustration of the economic reality of rising gasprices.  There is NO
need for all this waste and it begets econominc inefficiency.

Cheers (!)
Alan.

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BigBird - 20 Apr 2006 22:35 GMT
while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in
any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers
is still the only viable way to boycott the major name gas stations

by buying your fuel from the independant stations you send a major
message to the big boys that we dont have to play by their rules

fuel is actually only part of how a gas station makes its revenue by
shopping at the other stations you will most likely be doing your
impulse buying there too you know stuff like that car wash or pack of
gum or smokes or that quart of milk that you almost always seem to pick
up while your in there

you cant tell me that if a major name retailer  found out from all
their gas stations in say the city of saskatoon

that they never had one person in any of their stores all week to buy
even one liter of fuel or a soda pop that they wouldnt be cutting the
price of fuel or offering some other incentive to get you back into
their stations as soon as possible

but thats just my two cents

come to think of it maybe opions should be worth more than two cents
now that is takes so many cents to pay for a liter of fuel lol
W - 20 Apr 2006 22:48 GMT
THeproblem with the boycott is that the average motorist isn't going to
make a dent in the oil companies, let alone in Saskatchewan.  OUr volume
of sales don't affect the bottom dollar at Shell, Petro-Canada, etc.

By not spending your impulse dollars at the stores, you hurt the store
manager/owner more than the oil company.

Airlines, tractor trailers, and other large commercial businesses use
alot more than the average consumer.  THese companies do not care about
playing the boycott game, as they can't afford to do it.  Product needs
to move, regardless of the price of fuel.

DO you think Yanke or other large trucking companies can start worrying
about their large feets fueling locations?? No.  At more than $500.00
per day in fuel, per truck (long haul), these trucks spend the money.

Bottom line is big business needs to make the move, and not the small
time consumer like us, we don't make a dent in the profits, and big
business is to busy to play games.

Talk to your politicians, as the majority of the price on a liter of
fuel in a Canadian gas station is tax.

> while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in
> any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> come to think of it maybe opions should be worth more than two cents
> now that is takes so many cents to pay for a liter of fuel lol
W - 20 Apr 2006 22:50 GMT
Oh, by the way, who do you think supplies the independant stations??????
 THe same big name oil companies do....

> while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in
> any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> come to think of it maybe opions should be worth more than two cents
> now that is takes so many cents to pay for a liter of fuel lol
Kent - 21 Apr 2006 12:55 GMT
> while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in
> any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers
> is still the only viable way to boycott the major name gas stations

You are doing absolutely nothing to the major names by boycotting their stations.
The derive the vast majority of their sales from fleet sales that are on contracts
negotiated months if not years in advance. Trucking companies, cities, military,
constructions companies etc.

Any "successful" boycott is going to do nothing but help the chains consolidate to
fewer stores, which they've been working on for the last 15 years anyway.

Kent
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:23 GMT
> no but here is an idea that will work
>
> just support the little gas stations and not the major brand names

Reduce consumption.  It is the _only_ way to reduce prices and pollution
and save non-renewable energy.
darthpup - 24 Apr 2006 19:15 GMT
Prognosis is fairly apparent.  Global demand for petroleum is
increasing.
Global demand for all resources in increasing.  Labor costs are now and
will continue to be very competitive.  Result:  Cost and availability
will become more competitive.
darthpup - 29 Apr 2006 22:01 GMT
Here comes methane hydrate and ethanol.
Guenter Scholz - 30 Apr 2006 03:43 GMT
>Here comes methane hydrate and ethanol.

 Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with
a diesel in a 911 is there?  Lots of torque for sure.  didn't VW, I mean
Audi, show that it can be done recently?

cheers, guenter
Kent - 30 Apr 2006 08:01 GMT
>   Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with
> a diesel in a 911 is there?  Lots of torque for sure.  didn't VW, I mean
> Audi, show that it can be done recently?

Um...Diesel is still an oil derivative. Yes it's cheaper than gas, but it isn't
going to last any longer than the other forms. And as soon as more people use it,
the price will rise.

Kent
darthpup - 30 Apr 2006 12:55 GMT
Must drive a truck with four rear tires and five liter engine.  I have
kuhoni problem and self esteem requirement.  After all I am just
another Homo sapiens.  What can I do?
Man only does what he has to do.  He does not act from intelligent
decision.
More of a moral guerilla.
Alan Browne - 01 May 2006 01:57 GMT
>>   Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with
>> a diesel in a 911 is there?  Lots of torque for sure.  didn't VW, I mean
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it isn't going to last any longer than the other forms. And as soon as
> more people use it, the price will rise.

You can (by some strange method) make (very clean burning)diesel with
natural gas.  But that seems strange to me.  nat gas is clean to begin
with and not plentiful enough...

Cheers,
Alan

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W - 01 May 2006 13:22 GMT
Diesel vehicles don't always have to run on diesel.  There have been
many of these cars easily converted to run on vegetable oil, or other
RENEWABLE oil sources.

The bottom line is conservation to save money and resources.

Like I said in a previous post, Im likely going to buy a SMART car after
this winter...56mpg in the city, and certainly good enough for city driving.

It is also my personal opinion that the sooner we run out of oil the
better.  This will allow faster production of non-oil burning vehicles,
and a focus on more renewable sources, such as wind, sun, and
geo-thermal devices to heat and power our homes, as well as a new focus
on alternative fueled vehicles.

I do know one thing....Ill die before we run out of oil, and Im just young.

>>   Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with
>> a diesel in a 911 is there?  Lots of torque for sure.  didn't VW, I mean
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Kent
Kent - 02 May 2006 01:07 GMT
> I do know one thing....Ill die before we run out of oil, and Im just young.

Odd. I'm not young and I expect to be alive when we reach the point where there
will only be enough petroleum left for critical uses and the ultra-rich.

Kent
watermelon - 20 Apr 2006 04:05 GMT
post somewhere else you f.ck up,  HOW f.cking DUMB ARE YOU, SELL OR BUY
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
> stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
vahooka - 20 Apr 2006 04:49 GMT
about time they do it, stops you from driving a truck to pick up coke
from 2 block down 7-11, ride your bike ;)
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
> stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
darthpup - 20 Apr 2006 13:54 GMT
The gasoline sold in each individual station is not related directly to
the brand posted.  A majority of stations buy their gasoline supply
from the closer and least expensive supply source.  Here in Virginia
Beach almost all of our gasoline comes from the BP refinery in
Yorktown, VA.  The illusion that shifting your purchase point will
pressure the corporation is not correct.
If you want to get at them then buy half as much gasoline each time.
That way it drives their inventory up and the price down.
B. Peg - 21 Apr 2006 04:05 GMT
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.

Yeah.  Right.  China and India will take all that we don't buy.

Fwiw: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060420/480/la11304202125

Also, my local min-market dealer was talking to someone in his store about
needing to order a bunch of number "4"s for his gas signs on the street
since he didn't have enough on hand.  He was told, "They were on backorder
as they are having a run on them."

Maybe $4 a gallon gas (regular grade) isn't far off.

B~
americanpossi@yahoo.ca - 22 Apr 2006 03:12 GMT
I think thats a good idea, not that everyone will particapate. But does
it really matter if some Knobs like watermellon don't like what you
think of gas prices. I too don't like the gas prices, but just two
people not buying gas wont do sh.t. So my idea is too get all of ur
freinds too do that while watermellon sits there paying ludacriss
amounts of money for gas.
Kent - 22 Apr 2006 06:47 GMT
OK, I'm not normally one to criticize spelling--we all tend to think faster than
we type, but 8 errors in once paragraph? _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the
handle of the person you're talking about. (How tough is it to spell watermelon?).

If you "dont" know how to spell participate or ludicrous, you should probably use
smaller words--or a spell check [although that wouldn't help with the fact that
sometimes "too" only needs one "o". Are you actually old enough to need gas?

Kent
and WTF is possi? Is that supposed to be americanposse, or maybe americanpussi?

> I think thats a good idea, not that everyone will particapate. But does
> it really matter if some Knobs like watermellon don't like what you
> think of gas prices. I too don't like the gas prices, but just two
> people not buying gas wont do sh.t. So my idea is too get all of ur
> freinds too do that while watermellon sits there paying ludacriss
> amounts of money for gas.
americanpossi@yahoo.ca - 24 Apr 2006 22:42 GMT
> OK, I'm not normally one to criticize spelling--we all tend to think faster than
> we type, but 8 errors in once paragraph? _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > freinds too do that while watermellon sits there paying ludacriss
> > amounts of money for gas.

Lol do you really have that bad of a life to sit on your computer all
day and correct spelling mistakes?, Well i was typeing fast. So if you
don't like the way i spell you can suck my dick sh.t head.
Kent - 25 Apr 2006 00:15 GMT
> Lol do you really have that bad of a life to sit on your computer all
> day and correct spelling mistakes?, Well i was typeing fast. So if you
> don't like the way i spell you can suck my dick sh.t head.

Sadly, I didn't start counting until after I started having trouble figuring out
what you were trying to say.

Tempting as your dick might be, I try to stay away from sex with people I suspect
are still in grade school.

Kent
Scott R. - 24 Apr 2006 23:12 GMT
" _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the handle of the person you're
talking about. (How tough is it to spell watermelon?)."

You misspelled misspelling you moron.  No one needs someone to correct
them Kent.  See, even you did it (hopefully) by mistake.

Besides, handles are usually the toughest to spell because they often
aren't made up of real words or usual names.
Kent - 25 Apr 2006 00:24 GMT
> " _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the handle of the person you're
> talking about. (How tough is it to spell watermelon?)."
>
> You misspelled misspelling you moron.  No one needs someone to correct
> them Kent.  See, even you did it (hopefully) by mistake.

which is why I said:
"I'm not normally one to criticize spelling--we all tend to think faster than we
type" and also why I said that's _not_ including the handle.

> Besides, handles are usually the toughest to spell because they often
> aren't made up of real words or usual names.

"usually the hardest" doesn't cut cut in this case. Watermelon isn't particularly
tough. It wasn't a typo because he repeated the mistake, he genuinely doesn't know
how to spell watermelon and couldn't be bothered to spend 3 seconds to check it in
the message he was replying to.

I don't expect anyone to be perfect. Not even myself. It's at least a couple of
years since I last drew attention to any such thing, but I don't think people
should attempt to communicate in public if they can't construct a paragraph that
most people can read. Spelling aside, once the lack of punctuation left me
wondering about "does it really matter if some Knobs like watermellon" I felt like
his message had wasted my time.

Kent
Joe Blow - 23 Apr 2006 07:00 GMT
News Surfer is suffering from a common misconception that the high price
of oil/gasoline is purely a supply/demand issue. In reality, the
short-term price changes are mainly due to speculators pushing the price
up in *anticipation* of a real demand issue. The main reason
crude/gasoline is at this level is because of fear of a disruption due
to a possible conflict with Iran. The refineries and production were in
a lot worse shape when Katrina hit and the prices didn't get to this level.

So, in conclusion, if you really want your gas to be cheaper why don't
you hedge your cost a little by going Long a few futures contracts of
oil or gasoline =P

> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
> stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:22 GMT
> News Surfer is suffering from a common misconception that the high price
> of oil/gasoline is purely a supply/demand issue. In reality, the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> you hedge your cost a little by going Long a few futures contracts of
> oil or gasoline =P

Or better yet, plan for a long term reduction in your own gasoline
usage.  If everyone reduces use, demand goes down and so do stresses on
the system that cause speculators to push up futures contracts.

Fundamentally demand drives prices regardless of "accelerators" such as
speculators and hedgers.  Lower the demand, lower the speculation and
hedging.

See my other post.
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 19:09 GMT
The only way to "fight back" is to deliberately and conscientiously
reduce fuel consumption over the long term.

It means that your next car should be more fuel efficient (and certainly
not a gas hog SUV/light truck if you don't _really_ need one); or even a
hybrid, esp. for high city use.

It means planning your trips so you get more done per litre of fuel.

It means properly inflated tires and aligned wheels.

It means regular maintenance done on time, such as oil changes, air
filter changes, ignition system checks, etc.

It means reducing your cruising speed.

It means accelerating briskly, but not aggressively.

It means cornering less aggressively.

It means anticipating traffic patterns and adjusting to avoid excessive
braking and accelerating.

It means no tailgating in traffic.

It means coasting to a stop at red lights.

It means turning off the engine when not needed.

It means reducing the use of air conditioning.

It means avoiding the addition of accessories to the vehicle.

It means keeping the car clean and unloaded with "trunk junk"

It means carpooling, taking the bus, train, subway or riding a bike more
often.

It means telecomuting a few days a month if your job allows it.

Excessive gas consumption is the new social taboo.

Cheers,
Alan

> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
> stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.

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yoshi - 23 Apr 2006 20:36 GMT
I agree, no doubt countries such as China and India are consuming more oil
too.

The real solution is to be less dependent on oil and steps should be taken
by everyone as well as governments, corps and other types of businesses to
reduce consumption.   Take a look at some of our European neighbours such as
Sweden and Iceland.  They all know that oil isn't going to be around
forever, so they have taken steps to eventually be free of oil dependence.
Even Courier Companies such as UPS are converting their fleet with Hybrid
Engines.  North America is still a younger country, but it doesn't mean we
should use more and more.  Start focusing.  The higher gas prices eventually
mean moving to better technologies that use less oil or none at all.

> The only way to "fight back" is to deliberately and conscientiously reduce
> fuel consumption over the long term.
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>>
>> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:26 GMT
If you go into this paper:
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/771014-MFNz6j/native/771014.pdf

You will find a graph showing a huge migration to
light-trucks/minivans/SUV's over the past 20+ years.

This is what is driving up prices:  stress on supply.  These vehicles
use much more fuel than basic cars.  Both by design and by MPG laws by
class of vehicle.

So, you want prices down?  Use less gas.  Get back to cars and away from
the higher consumption vehicles.

Alan.
davemcc@shaw.ca - 24 Apr 2006 04:30 GMT
I can't say that I *like* high gas prices any better than anyone else,
but we really DO have to start thinking a bit differently.  We've been
on this cheap energy kick for far, far too long.

Crude oil is a valuable chemical compound useful and essential in
making many products.  It's a shame to see so much of it being burned
up (ie: wasted?).  High prices encourage conservation and alternative
energy strategies.  Low prices encourage waste.  Even now, people still
are using overly large vehicles, drive like maniacs and drive
everywhere.  That's what comes from having gas cheaper than coke or
bottled water.

People in many other countries (ie: the UK, etc) have had to adjust to
gas prices far, far higher than what we have had here.  Even 2 years
ago, gas in Scotland was around $2/litre, adjusted for the exchange
rate at that time.

Basically, I have to say that for most people, we should quit our
whining, drive less, drive better and smarter, drive smaller cars and
develop longer memories.  I remember the gas-price crunch of the
mid-1970's.  People actually started moving to smaller cars after that,
and US car manufacturers started making some smaller cars then too,
although they started losing market share to the Japanese auto industry
around that time.  But we all forgot about that and vehicles started
getting bigger and more wasteful.  What's the biggest shame is that in
the 30 years since then, we could have made some real strides to
reducing our consumption of oil, but we were lazy, and forgetful, and
self-indulgent.  So look where that's landed us.

Make some real llife-style changes and quit expecting energy to be
cheap forever.  This is probably just the beginning.

Dave
W - 25 Apr 2006 14:50 GMT
This is very true, but keep in mind that in Europe, everything is MUCH
closer together, so transportation of goods/people is a little easier to
swollow at those fuel prices.

With all of Europe being onle 3,837,081 square miles, its easier to move
goods there compared to the 9,449,460 square miles in North America.
Perhaps we need to "regionilize" more, and transport less.

Im one of the pigs that has an SUV and another big rear wheel drive
car...next year its going to be a Diesel unit, perhaps even a SMART car.

Regardless of the price of fuel, MY cost, and MY consumption needs to be
reduced somehow.  Ill save my 60$ a week in fuel and put it towards
getting my house off the grid next...

>People in many other countries (ie: the UK, etc) have had to adjust to
>gas prices far, far higher than what we have had here.  Even 2 years
>ago, gas in Scotland was around $2/litre, adjusted for the exchange
>rate at that time.
W - 24 Apr 2006 17:23 GMT
It has less to do with the demand stress, and more to do with taking
advantage of a piggish society.

You are certainly right about the sales increase of SUV's and other over
consuming vehicles.

Why I say it is BS in regards to the demand stress is simply the record
profits that oil companies have made in the recent past.

W

> If you go into this paper:
> http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/771014-MFNz6j/native/771014.pdf
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Alan.
davemcc@shaw.ca - 25 Apr 2006 12:32 GMT
Well, people in that "piggish society" you mention might feel they are
being taken advantage of, but I'd be interested in hearing an
economist's opinion.

Personally, I feel that North America's consumption habits allow oil
companies (and oil commodity traders) to bid up the price of crude oil
just because the demand is so great.  I mean, it IS increasing, right?
Just imagine the effect on prices if everyone was able to reduce their
consumption by 50%, something that is very possible if everyone could
move to a vehicle that was twice as efficient as the one they now drive
(and for many, many people, that would be easy to do).

Economists have a term called price inelasticity which I understand to
mean that consumption for certain things won't change as price
increases (as opposed to some other things where price increases have a
rapid depressive effect on consumption).  I'd say that for most people,
price increases in gas haven't really changed their consumption habits,
at least not right away or just not yet.  Basically, the market can
only charge what the market is willing to pay.  And I don't think that
a 2-day boycott will have any effect on the price, by the way.  You
really want to make a difference?  Find a way to permanently cut your
gas consumption by 50%

And then there is the rapidly increasing demand from China (and India,
too, I think).

And there is also a supply concern, whether it's real right now or just
a fear of future disruptions.  Issues with Iran and Iraq supply as well
as problems in South America, oil refineries still damaged by last
fall's hurricanes, etc.
Alan Browne - 27 Apr 2006 00:28 GMT
> And then there is the rapidly increasing demand from China (and India,
> too, I think).

Absolutely.  While there may be a short term tolerance to high prices,
it will not last forever and it *does* have an effect of removing cash
from other businesses.  (eg: people eat out less, and the restaurant is
faced with higher delivery charges).

As the graph shows in
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/771014-MFNz6j/native/771014.pdf

Not only are cars being replaced by light trucks, SUV's and minivans,
but of course with a growing population there are more vehicles in total
as well.

Demand is up in N.A.
China and India are emerging as the next gas guzzler nations.
Political stress on supply is at a near historic high.

I'm not worried about prices as much as I am about pollution and the
waste of a non-renewable resource.

Cheers,
Alan
Alan Browne - 29 Apr 2006 20:11 GMT
I found this on the web a couple years ago and like its simple common
sense.  The scary things are:

1. There is nowhere near a "100 year" supply of oil identified.
2. The growth rate in consumption is greater than 5% !

The Mirage of a Growing Fuel Supply

By Dr. EVAR D. NERING

 SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — When I discussed the exponential function in the
first-semester calculus classes that I taught, I invariably used
consumption of a nonrenewable natural resource as an example. Since we
are now engaged in a national debate about energy policy, it may be
useful to talk about the mathematics involved in making a rational
decision about resource use.

In my classes, I described the following hypothetical situation. We have
a 100-year supply of a resource, say oil — that is, the oil would last
100 years if it were consumed at its current rate. But the oil is
consumed at a rate that grows by 5 percent each year. How long would it
last under these circumstances? This is an easy calculation; the answer
is about 36 years.

Oh, but let's say we underestimated the supply, and we actually have a
1,000-year supply. At the same annual 5 percent growth rate in use, how
long will this last? The answer is about 79 years.

 Then let us say we make a striking discovery of more oil yet — a
bonanza — and we now have a 10,000-year supply. At our same rate of
growing use, how long would it last? Answer: 125 years.

Estimates vary for how long currently known oil reserves will last,
though they are usually considerably less than 100 years. But the point
of this analysis is that it really doesn't matter what the estimates
are. There is no way that a supply-side attack on America's energy
problem can work.

 The exponential function describes the behavior of any quantity whose
rate of change is proportional to its size. Compound interest is the
most commonly encountered example — it would produce exponential growth
if the interest were calculated at a continuing rate. I have heard
public statements that use "exponential" as though it describes a large
or sudden increase. But exponential growth does not have to be large,
and it is never sudden.

Rather, it is inexorable.

Calculations also show that if consumption of an energy resource is
allowed to grow at a steady 5 percent annual rate, a full doubling of
the available supply will not be as effective as reducing that growth
rate by half — to 2.5 percent. Doubling the size of the oil reserve will
add at most 14 years to the life expectancy of the resource if we
continue to use it at the currently increasing rate, no matter how large
it is currently. On the other hand, halving the growth of consumption
will almost double the life expectancy of the supply, no matter what it is.

This mathematical reality seems to have escaped the politicians pushing
to solve our energy problem by simply increasing supply. Building more
power plants and drilling for more oil is exactly the wrong thing to do,
because it will encourage more use. If we want to avoid dire
consequences, we need to find the political will to reduce the growth in
energy consumption to zero — or even begin to consume less.

I must emphasize that reducing the growth rate is not what most people
are talking about now when they advocate conservation; the steps they
recommend are just Band-Aids. If we increase the gas mileage of our
automobiles and then drive more miles, for example, that will not reduce
the growth rate.

Reducing the growth of consumption means living closer to where we work
or play. It means telecommuting. It means controlling population growth.
It means shifting to renewable energy sources.

It is not, perhaps, necessary to cut our use of oil, but it is essential
that we cut the rate of increase at which we consume it. To do otherwise
is to leave our descendants in an impoverished world.

Evar D. Nering is professor emeritus of
mathematics at Arizona State University.
Nightmare - 03 Jun 2006 23:45 GMT
Agree,and I don't understand this,if the price on per barrel of oil increase
to $75 well ok if the price on gas increase BUT if the oil hets down to lets
say $70 per barrel,gas will maybe go down just a couple of cents per liter?
Where I live the price is around $1,50 per liter and it will increase to
maybe $1,60 when the vacation season is here
I've done much to put my need for gas down a cheap economic car it needs
around 0,6 liters per 10 kilometers

But as I said on top War For Better Price On Gas
Regards Nightmare

> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas
> stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
darthpup - 04 Jun 2006 00:24 GMT
We will not run out of oil.
The resource of proven reserves available from methane hydrate alone is
greater than all petroleum consumed since the start of the industrial
revolution.
Drive less, spend less, live longer!
Nightmare - 05 Jun 2006 14:30 GMT
Well,drive less nowadays even with my economic car before this I had a Volvo
and it was a real thirsty piece of car so the next step is to sell the car
and blow up the gas stations THEN we WILL SAVE the last drops of oil
BUT are you serious? the modern society BUILDS on transportation so if
everyone begins to use bicykles we will go back in time are you willing to
do that?
NOT ME but saving gas AND environment IS IMPORTANT
Regards
Nightmare
> We will not run out of oil.
> The resource of proven reserves available from methane hydrate alone is
> greater than all petroleum consumed since the start of the industrial
> revolution.
> Drive less, spend less, live longer!
darthpup - 05 Jun 2006 14:43 GMT
Here is a very informative site for ideas on how to actually increase
mpg:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency_Retrofits

Some good, some bad, some pure BS.
Nightmare - 05 Jun 2006 15:32 GMT
Informative and I know at least a couple of friends of mine that used the
chipping and the increased mileage then you have tires and stuff too
I wonder what I could about my car hmm I can drive 14 kilometers on 1 liter
gas 95 unleaded
Thanx for the link
Regards
Nightmare

> Here is a very informative site for ideas on how to actually increase
> mpg:
>
> http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency_Retrofits
>
> Some good, some bad, some pure BS.
 
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