Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2006
Gas War - Fight Back - Read This PLEASE
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News Surfer - 20 Apr 2006 02:02 GMT We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's time we as the consumer send a clear message to the oil barons that we're not going to take it any more! the price of crude oil has reached an all-time high! let's all put an end to it now. who's with me? i'm not buying gas until the price drops by at least 15 cents a liter. i'll ride my bike and do whatever it takes. make your voice heard.
BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
Doug&Michelle - 20 Apr 2006 02:19 GMT Gas stations wont loose a dime neither will the oil companies cause after those 2 days of boycotting you will need that much more fuel most people cannot ride to work or school.or evenb ttake the bus with the crappy bus service here it wont them at all This may be the wrong thinking but its my thoughts
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas > stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. BigBird - 20 Apr 2006 02:24 GMT no but here is an idea that will work
just support the little gas stations and not the major brand names
Kent - 20 Apr 2006 03:43 GMT > no but here is an idea that will work > > just support the little gas stations and not the major brand names You realize that most of the stations are now franchises, owned by the operators, not the oil companies? most of them are lucky to keep more than 1 or 2 cents a liter. Even the "independents" still buy their gas from the same trucks, there's no "independent oil company" filling their tanks every night. No matter who you buy from, and who you avoid, the same money is going to end up going to the same companies at the well-head.
The only reasonable answer is to use less. Yes the bus system is imperfect, but the reason it sucks is because nobody uses it. We used to have excellent bus service 20-40 years ago, but now everyone figures they are entitled to drive because the whole world wants to live like they are middle-class. Less than $400.00 a year gets you a pass you can use whenever you want. Less than almost any plates cost. Even adding in another hundred a month for a few cab rides, or gas for a friend to take you shopping, and it's still going to be less than the cost of regular maintenance, gas and replacing a 10 year old vehicle every few years for a couple of thousand.
We are all so wrapped up in how we have the right to drive everywhere and how the government ought to stick it to the oil companies and make them lower their prices, that we fail to look at whether there is any cost benefit to driving. Yes, some people need to drive. That's going to be a fact of life for some time to come, but most of us don't need to drive at all.
Once you factor in how much of your tax money goes into supporting repairs and construction of new roads, (on top of the outrageous cost of cars, licensing and insurance, and before you even get to the gas pump.) cars are one of the least efficient things modern man has ever produced. I cringe at billions of tons of oil used each year to make or repair mile after mile of ashphalt, including nice wide paved shoulders and double lanes so nobody has to go a fuel efficient speed. Aside form your ownership/insurance/maintenance/fuel costs, less traffic = less wear and tear on roads, fewer repairs, fewer accidents resulting in health care costs, fewer pollution related costs like lung problems.
Until people are prepared to accept that fossil fuel was always a fleeting, and flawed, experiment, there won't be any progress in dealing with the real issues. That likely won't happen until it becomes a crisis. No one had gasoline 150 yeas ago, and no one will 50 years from now. I know most people are sick and tired of the whole "sustainability" debate, but until the voters demand that governments get their heads out of their a$$es about the simple mathematics of the impending need for alternatives to fossil fuels, we aren't going to have any real progress toward a plan for the second half of this century. 40 years might seem like a long time now, but wait until we get there and all the gas is gone unless you can shell out $100.00 a liter.
We are likely in the last year when more new reserves will be found than the annual global increase in how much oil gets consumed, if not, it will be 2007. Either way, the available pool of oil is going to get smaller, not bigger. Southeast Asia is increasing consumption at a phenomenal rate. Anyone who thinks gas prices are too high today is going to be either psychopathic or suicidal in a couple of years.
Kent
robrjt - 20 Apr 2006 15:03 GMT Billshit. Profits per gallon are the better part of $1. It used to be a few cents per gallon. The corp greed in endemic in all monopolies. Healthcare and oil, the the system just redistributes capital from the workers pockets to the execs of the monopolies. the only good thing about the CEOs of Healthsouth and Exxon is they will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they each get...
W - 20 Apr 2006 15:31 GMT Well two observations,
First, oil company profits have gone up in the hundreds of percent, we are being gouged.
A tractor-trailer unit will use over $500 per day or more, compared to the small amounts commuters use. Yes they all add up, there is no doubt about it, but the world is not going to stop over fuel prices though, this has been proven several times over, look at Europe, for example.
You want to send a message? STOP BUYING AND DRIVING BIG VEHICLES!! Vehicles that get <25mpg and cost $50k are a problem. Buy small, drive less, cut your costs. THIS sends a message because not only are the oil companies not making as much money because the customer is using less, but also the car companies make less on guzzler sales.
THe question I have is why does a gallon of fuel increase in price, but never a quart of oil?!
W
> Billshit. Profits per gallon are the better part of $1. It used to > be a few cents per gallon. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they > each get... jcr - 21 Apr 2006 00:38 GMT > On 4/20/2006 10:03 AM ... robrjt wrote: > Billshit. Profits per gallon are the better part of $1. It used to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they > each get... If you have a 401(k) plan, sit back and enjoy the profits. The "they" you speak of is, well *us*, the stock holders or mutual fund we hold that own the oil and oil services stocks.
someone@someplace.com - 21 Apr 2006 07:30 GMT >Billshit. Profits per gallon are the better part of $1. It used to >be a few cents per gallon. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >will not live long enough to spend the 1.6 BILLION and 400 MILLION they >each get... Yeah and just think of the trillians that the Bush family is getting. They are the biggest oil tycoons in the world, And guess what.... this was all planned.... As long as that son of a bitch stays in power, our lives and out country will continue to fall apart.
jcr - 21 Apr 2006 23:16 GMT > On 4/21/2006 2:30 AM ... someone@someplace.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > As long as that son of a bitch stays in power, our lives and out > country will continue to fall apart. Bush's income taxes were made public last week, he didn't make that much. Guess again.
Kent - 21 Apr 2006 12:50 GMT > Billshit. Profits per gallon are the better part of $1. It used to > be a few cents per gallon. Over the last four years I've watched a close friend's life's savings whittled away on living expenses as he and partner try to make a go of a marginal gas station. It is the only gas station in a 20 block radius, at the centre of a large suburban area, but they didn't realize how little the stations themselves make from gas, and they are on the corner beside a very large pharmacy/confectionery that gets all the pop/chips money. Last year they switched from being part of a chain to being independent, which reduced the chain costs, but slightly increased the amount they pay for the gas.
The large profits you speak of are going to the oil companies, not to the person operating the service station. Exxon doesn't give a f*** where you buy your gas. They are going to get their money.
Kent
jcr - 21 Apr 2006 23:18 GMT > On 4/21/2006 7:50 AM ... Kent wrote: > > Billshit. Profits per gallon are the better part of $1. It used to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Kent I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon. At $75 a barrel, much of the $$$ are going to Saudi Arabia.
Kent - 22 Apr 2006 00:24 GMT > I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your > 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon. At $75 a barrel, much > of the $$$ are going to Saudi Arabia. I wish.
1) I'm Canadian so it would be my RRSP, not a 401k
2) I have very little American content in my RRSP (which was limited to 20% foreign holdings until recently), and what I do have is medical or tech, not mutuals or resource based.
Kent
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:28 GMT >> I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your >> 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon. At $75 a barrel, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 20% foreign holdings until recently), and what I do have is medical or > tech, not mutuals or resource based. My Canadian mutual funds (in RRSP) have done bangers over the past few months mainly due to high oil prices.
Still, I would rather see oil consumption go down than my RRSP's go up on oil. We're wasting oil, not using it responsibly.
Alan
jcr - 24 Apr 2006 02:42 GMT > On 4/23/2006 4:28 PM ... Alan Browne wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Alan Consumption will eventually go down some at these prices.
Alan Browne - 29 Apr 2006 22:09 GMT >>>> I bet if you check the holdings of some of the mutual funds in your >>>> 401(k) account you'll find that *you* own Exxon. At $75 a barrel, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Consumption will eventually go down some at these prices. But the fundamental problem will remain. Oil is not only getting harder to find and harder to extract, it remains a finite, non-renewable resource. And it pollutes. There is every good reason to be collectively smart about oil, but we are collectively stupid.
A lawyer in a large SUV driving to his downtown office is wasting a couple gallons a day, every day of the year. Since the 80's the US proportion of cars to light trucks (minivans, pickups, SUV's) has goen from 70-30 to 51-49. And the number of vehicles has increased 30% overall. Many of the "light trucks" are not included in CAFE and are much less efficient than cars. Increase weight 5% = increase consumption 10% (rule of thumb).
Imagine a poor family that has a car that they need to earn their living. They face rising gas prices and it forces them to eat less (or less nutritiously), clothe less well, get less health coverage, less education...
Every dollar wasted on gas is a dollar that is not being spent where that poor family probably earns its money. Say the poor family breadwinner works in a restaurant as an assistant cook. Less people will eat out, the restaurant has to pay rising delivery charges (or spend more on pickups), eventually he's let go. This is a simplistic illustration of the economic reality of rising gasprices. There is NO need for all this waste and it begets econominc inefficiency.
Cheers (!) Alan.
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BigBird - 20 Apr 2006 22:35 GMT while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers is still the only viable way to boycott the major name gas stations
by buying your fuel from the independant stations you send a major message to the big boys that we dont have to play by their rules
fuel is actually only part of how a gas station makes its revenue by shopping at the other stations you will most likely be doing your impulse buying there too you know stuff like that car wash or pack of gum or smokes or that quart of milk that you almost always seem to pick up while your in there
you cant tell me that if a major name retailer found out from all their gas stations in say the city of saskatoon
that they never had one person in any of their stores all week to buy even one liter of fuel or a soda pop that they wouldnt be cutting the price of fuel or offering some other incentive to get you back into their stations as soon as possible
but thats just my two cents
come to think of it maybe opions should be worth more than two cents now that is takes so many cents to pay for a liter of fuel lol
W - 20 Apr 2006 22:48 GMT THeproblem with the boycott is that the average motorist isn't going to make a dent in the oil companies, let alone in Saskatchewan. OUr volume of sales don't affect the bottom dollar at Shell, Petro-Canada, etc.
By not spending your impulse dollars at the stores, you hurt the store manager/owner more than the oil company.
Airlines, tractor trailers, and other large commercial businesses use alot more than the average consumer. THese companies do not care about playing the boycott game, as they can't afford to do it. Product needs to move, regardless of the price of fuel.
DO you think Yanke or other large trucking companies can start worrying about their large feets fueling locations?? No. At more than $500.00 per day in fuel, per truck (long haul), these trucks spend the money.
Bottom line is big business needs to make the move, and not the small time consumer like us, we don't make a dent in the profits, and big business is to busy to play games.
Talk to your politicians, as the majority of the price on a liter of fuel in a Canadian gas station is tax.
> while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in > any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > come to think of it maybe opions should be worth more than two cents > now that is takes so many cents to pay for a liter of fuel lol W - 20 Apr 2006 22:50 GMT Oh, by the way, who do you think supplies the independant stations?????? THe same big name oil companies do....
> while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in > any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > come to think of it maybe opions should be worth more than two cents > now that is takes so many cents to pay for a liter of fuel lol Kent - 21 Apr 2006 12:55 GMT > while i do realize that all the fuel comes from the same refinery in > any given area the idea of supporting the little independant retailers > is still the only viable way to boycott the major name gas stations You are doing absolutely nothing to the major names by boycotting their stations. The derive the vast majority of their sales from fleet sales that are on contracts negotiated months if not years in advance. Trucking companies, cities, military, constructions companies etc.
Any "successful" boycott is going to do nothing but help the chains consolidate to fewer stores, which they've been working on for the last 15 years anyway.
Kent
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:23 GMT > no but here is an idea that will work > > just support the little gas stations and not the major brand names Reduce consumption. It is the _only_ way to reduce prices and pollution and save non-renewable energy.
darthpup - 24 Apr 2006 19:15 GMT Prognosis is fairly apparent. Global demand for petroleum is increasing. Global demand for all resources in increasing. Labor costs are now and will continue to be very competitive. Result: Cost and availability will become more competitive.
darthpup - 29 Apr 2006 22:01 GMT Here comes methane hydrate and ethanol.
Guenter Scholz - 30 Apr 2006 03:43 GMT >Here comes methane hydrate and ethanol. Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with a diesel in a 911 is there? Lots of torque for sure. didn't VW, I mean Audi, show that it can be done recently?
cheers, guenter
Kent - 30 Apr 2006 08:01 GMT > Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with > a diesel in a 911 is there? Lots of torque for sure. didn't VW, I mean > Audi, show that it can be done recently? Um...Diesel is still an oil derivative. Yes it's cheaper than gas, but it isn't going to last any longer than the other forms. And as soon as more people use it, the price will rise.
Kent
darthpup - 30 Apr 2006 12:55 GMT Must drive a truck with four rear tires and five liter engine. I have kuhoni problem and self esteem requirement. After all I am just another Homo sapiens. What can I do? Man only does what he has to do. He does not act from intelligent decision. More of a moral guerilla.
Alan Browne - 01 May 2006 01:57 GMT >> Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with >> a diesel in a 911 is there? Lots of torque for sure. didn't VW, I mean [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it isn't going to last any longer than the other forms. And as soon as > more people use it, the price will rise. You can (by some strange method) make (very clean burning)diesel with natural gas. But that seems strange to me. nat gas is clean to begin with and not plentiful enough...
Cheers, Alan
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W - 01 May 2006 13:22 GMT Diesel vehicles don't always have to run on diesel. There have been many of these cars easily converted to run on vegetable oil, or other RENEWABLE oil sources.
The bottom line is conservation to save money and resources.
Like I said in a previous post, Im likely going to buy a SMART car after this winter...56mpg in the city, and certainly good enough for city driving.
It is also my personal opinion that the sooner we run out of oil the better. This will allow faster production of non-oil burning vehicles, and a focus on more renewable sources, such as wind, sun, and geo-thermal devices to heat and power our homes, as well as a new focus on alternative fueled vehicles.
I do know one thing....Ill die before we run out of oil, and Im just young.
>> Diesel, I believe, is more likely..... In principle, nothing wrong with >> a diesel in a 911 is there? Lots of torque for sure. didn't VW, I mean [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Kent Kent - 02 May 2006 01:07 GMT > I do know one thing....Ill die before we run out of oil, and Im just young. Odd. I'm not young and I expect to be alive when we reach the point where there will only be enough petroleum left for critical uses and the ultra-rich.
Kent
watermelon - 20 Apr 2006 04:05 GMT post somewhere else you f.ck up, HOW f.cking DUMB ARE YOU, SELL OR BUY
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas > stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. vahooka - 20 Apr 2006 04:49 GMT about time they do it, stops you from driving a truck to pick up coke from 2 block down 7-11, ride your bike ;)
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas > stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. darthpup - 20 Apr 2006 13:54 GMT The gasoline sold in each individual station is not related directly to the brand posted. A majority of stations buy their gasoline supply from the closer and least expensive supply source. Here in Virginia Beach almost all of our gasoline comes from the BP refinery in Yorktown, VA. The illusion that shifting your purchase point will pressure the corporation is not correct. If you want to get at them then buy half as much gasoline each time. That way it drives their inventory up and the price down.
B. Peg - 21 Apr 2006 04:05 GMT > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. Yeah. Right. China and India will take all that we don't buy.
Fwiw: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060420/480/la11304202125
Also, my local min-market dealer was talking to someone in his store about needing to order a bunch of number "4"s for his gas signs on the street since he didn't have enough on hand. He was told, "They were on backorder as they are having a run on them."
Maybe $4 a gallon gas (regular grade) isn't far off.
B~
americanpossi@yahoo.ca - 22 Apr 2006 03:12 GMT I think thats a good idea, not that everyone will particapate. But does it really matter if some Knobs like watermellon don't like what you think of gas prices. I too don't like the gas prices, but just two people not buying gas wont do sh.t. So my idea is too get all of ur freinds too do that while watermellon sits there paying ludacriss amounts of money for gas.
Kent - 22 Apr 2006 06:47 GMT OK, I'm not normally one to criticize spelling--we all tend to think faster than we type, but 8 errors in once paragraph? _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the handle of the person you're talking about. (How tough is it to spell watermelon?).
If you "dont" know how to spell participate or ludicrous, you should probably use smaller words--or a spell check [although that wouldn't help with the fact that sometimes "too" only needs one "o". Are you actually old enough to need gas?
Kent and WTF is possi? Is that supposed to be americanposse, or maybe americanpussi?
> I think thats a good idea, not that everyone will particapate. But does > it really matter if some Knobs like watermellon don't like what you > think of gas prices. I too don't like the gas prices, but just two > people not buying gas wont do sh.t. So my idea is too get all of ur > freinds too do that while watermellon sits there paying ludacriss > amounts of money for gas. americanpossi@yahoo.ca - 24 Apr 2006 22:42 GMT > OK, I'm not normally one to criticize spelling--we all tend to think faster than > we type, but 8 errors in once paragraph? _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > freinds too do that while watermellon sits there paying ludacriss > > amounts of money for gas. Lol do you really have that bad of a life to sit on your computer all day and correct spelling mistakes?, Well i was typeing fast. So if you don't like the way i spell you can suck my dick sh.t head.
Kent - 25 Apr 2006 00:15 GMT > Lol do you really have that bad of a life to sit on your computer all > day and correct spelling mistakes?, Well i was typeing fast. So if you > don't like the way i spell you can suck my dick sh.t head. Sadly, I didn't start counting until after I started having trouble figuring out what you were trying to say.
Tempting as your dick might be, I try to stay away from sex with people I suspect are still in grade school.
Kent
Scott R. - 24 Apr 2006 23:12 GMT " _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the handle of the person you're talking about. (How tough is it to spell watermelon?)."
You misspelled misspelling you moron. No one needs someone to correct them Kent. See, even you did it (hopefully) by mistake.
Besides, handles are usually the toughest to spell because they often aren't made up of real words or usual names.
Kent - 25 Apr 2006 00:24 GMT > " _NOT_ counting (twice) miss spelling the handle of the person you're > talking about. (How tough is it to spell watermelon?)." > > You misspelled misspelling you moron. No one needs someone to correct > them Kent. See, even you did it (hopefully) by mistake. which is why I said: "I'm not normally one to criticize spelling--we all tend to think faster than we type" and also why I said that's _not_ including the handle.
> Besides, handles are usually the toughest to spell because they often > aren't made up of real words or usual names. "usually the hardest" doesn't cut cut in this case. Watermelon isn't particularly tough. It wasn't a typo because he repeated the mistake, he genuinely doesn't know how to spell watermelon and couldn't be bothered to spend 3 seconds to check it in the message he was replying to.
I don't expect anyone to be perfect. Not even myself. It's at least a couple of years since I last drew attention to any such thing, but I don't think people should attempt to communicate in public if they can't construct a paragraph that most people can read. Spelling aside, once the lack of punctuation left me wondering about "does it really matter if some Knobs like watermellon" I felt like his message had wasted my time.
Kent
Joe Blow - 23 Apr 2006 07:00 GMT News Surfer is suffering from a common misconception that the high price of oil/gasoline is purely a supply/demand issue. In reality, the short-term price changes are mainly due to speculators pushing the price up in *anticipation* of a real demand issue. The main reason crude/gasoline is at this level is because of fear of a disruption due to a possible conflict with Iran. The refineries and production were in a lot worse shape when Katrina hit and the prices didn't get to this level.
So, in conclusion, if you really want your gas to be cheaper why don't you hedge your cost a little by going Long a few futures contracts of oil or gasoline =P
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas > stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:22 GMT > News Surfer is suffering from a common misconception that the high price > of oil/gasoline is purely a supply/demand issue. In reality, the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you hedge your cost a little by going Long a few futures contracts of > oil or gasoline =P Or better yet, plan for a long term reduction in your own gasoline usage. If everyone reduces use, demand goes down and so do stresses on the system that cause speculators to push up futures contracts.
Fundamentally demand drives prices regardless of "accelerators" such as speculators and hedgers. Lower the demand, lower the speculation and hedging.
See my other post.
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 19:09 GMT The only way to "fight back" is to deliberately and conscientiously reduce fuel consumption over the long term.
It means that your next car should be more fuel efficient (and certainly not a gas hog SUV/light truck if you don't _really_ need one); or even a hybrid, esp. for high city use.
It means planning your trips so you get more done per litre of fuel.
It means properly inflated tires and aligned wheels.
It means regular maintenance done on time, such as oil changes, air filter changes, ignition system checks, etc.
It means reducing your cruising speed.
It means accelerating briskly, but not aggressively.
It means cornering less aggressively.
It means anticipating traffic patterns and adjusting to avoid excessive braking and accelerating.
It means no tailgating in traffic.
It means coasting to a stop at red lights.
It means turning off the engine when not needed.
It means reducing the use of air conditioning.
It means avoiding the addition of accessories to the vehicle.
It means keeping the car clean and unloaded with "trunk junk"
It means carpooling, taking the bus, train, subway or riding a bike more often.
It means telecomuting a few days a month if your job allows it.
Excessive gas consumption is the new social taboo.
Cheers, Alan
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas > stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose.
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yoshi - 23 Apr 2006 20:36 GMT I agree, no doubt countries such as China and India are consuming more oil too.
The real solution is to be less dependent on oil and steps should be taken by everyone as well as governments, corps and other types of businesses to reduce consumption. Take a look at some of our European neighbours such as Sweden and Iceland. They all know that oil isn't going to be around forever, so they have taken steps to eventually be free of oil dependence. Even Courier Companies such as UPS are converting their fleet with Hybrid Engines. North America is still a younger country, but it doesn't mean we should use more and more. Start focusing. The higher gas prices eventually mean moving to better technologies that use less oil or none at all.
> The only way to "fight back" is to deliberately and conscientiously reduce > fuel consumption over the long term. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2006 21:26 GMT If you go into this paper: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/771014-MFNz6j/native/771014.pdf
You will find a graph showing a huge migration to light-trucks/minivans/SUV's over the past 20+ years.
This is what is driving up prices: stress on supply. These vehicles use much more fuel than basic cars. Both by design and by MPG laws by class of vehicle.
So, you want prices down? Use less gas. Get back to cars and away from the higher consumption vehicles.
Alan.
davemcc@shaw.ca - 24 Apr 2006 04:30 GMT I can't say that I *like* high gas prices any better than anyone else, but we really DO have to start thinking a bit differently. We've been on this cheap energy kick for far, far too long.
Crude oil is a valuable chemical compound useful and essential in making many products. It's a shame to see so much of it being burned up (ie: wasted?). High prices encourage conservation and alternative energy strategies. Low prices encourage waste. Even now, people still are using overly large vehicles, drive like maniacs and drive everywhere. That's what comes from having gas cheaper than coke or bottled water.
People in many other countries (ie: the UK, etc) have had to adjust to gas prices far, far higher than what we have had here. Even 2 years ago, gas in Scotland was around $2/litre, adjusted for the exchange rate at that time.
Basically, I have to say that for most people, we should quit our whining, drive less, drive better and smarter, drive smaller cars and develop longer memories. I remember the gas-price crunch of the mid-1970's. People actually started moving to smaller cars after that, and US car manufacturers started making some smaller cars then too, although they started losing market share to the Japanese auto industry around that time. But we all forgot about that and vehicles started getting bigger and more wasteful. What's the biggest shame is that in the 30 years since then, we could have made some real strides to reducing our consumption of oil, but we were lazy, and forgetful, and self-indulgent. So look where that's landed us.
Make some real llife-style changes and quit expecting energy to be cheap forever. This is probably just the beginning.
Dave
W - 25 Apr 2006 14:50 GMT This is very true, but keep in mind that in Europe, everything is MUCH closer together, so transportation of goods/people is a little easier to swollow at those fuel prices.
With all of Europe being onle 3,837,081 square miles, its easier to move goods there compared to the 9,449,460 square miles in North America. Perhaps we need to "regionilize" more, and transport less.
Im one of the pigs that has an SUV and another big rear wheel drive car...next year its going to be a Diesel unit, perhaps even a SMART car.
Regardless of the price of fuel, MY cost, and MY consumption needs to be reduced somehow. Ill save my 60$ a week in fuel and put it towards getting my house off the grid next...
>People in many other countries (ie: the UK, etc) have had to adjust to >gas prices far, far higher than what we have had here. Even 2 years >ago, gas in Scotland was around $2/litre, adjusted for the exchange >rate at that time. W - 24 Apr 2006 17:23 GMT It has less to do with the demand stress, and more to do with taking advantage of a piggish society.
You are certainly right about the sales increase of SUV's and other over consuming vehicles.
Why I say it is BS in regards to the demand stress is simply the record profits that oil companies have made in the recent past.
W
> If you go into this paper: > http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/771014-MFNz6j/native/771014.pdf [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Alan. davemcc@shaw.ca - 25 Apr 2006 12:32 GMT Well, people in that "piggish society" you mention might feel they are being taken advantage of, but I'd be interested in hearing an economist's opinion.
Personally, I feel that North America's consumption habits allow oil companies (and oil commodity traders) to bid up the price of crude oil just because the demand is so great. I mean, it IS increasing, right? Just imagine the effect on prices if everyone was able to reduce their consumption by 50%, something that is very possible if everyone could move to a vehicle that was twice as efficient as the one they now drive (and for many, many people, that would be easy to do).
Economists have a term called price inelasticity which I understand to mean that consumption for certain things won't change as price increases (as opposed to some other things where price increases have a rapid depressive effect on consumption). I'd say that for most people, price increases in gas haven't really changed their consumption habits, at least not right away or just not yet. Basically, the market can only charge what the market is willing to pay. And I don't think that a 2-day boycott will have any effect on the price, by the way. You really want to make a difference? Find a way to permanently cut your gas consumption by 50%
And then there is the rapidly increasing demand from China (and India, too, I think).
And there is also a supply concern, whether it's real right now or just a fear of future disruptions. Issues with Iran and Iraq supply as well as problems in South America, oil refineries still damaged by last fall's hurricanes, etc.
Alan Browne - 27 Apr 2006 00:28 GMT > And then there is the rapidly increasing demand from China (and India, > too, I think). Absolutely. While there may be a short term tolerance to high prices, it will not last forever and it *does* have an effect of removing cash from other businesses. (eg: people eat out less, and the restaurant is faced with higher delivery charges).
As the graph shows in http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/771014-MFNz6j/native/771014.pdf
Not only are cars being replaced by light trucks, SUV's and minivans, but of course with a growing population there are more vehicles in total as well.
Demand is up in N.A. China and India are emerging as the next gas guzzler nations. Political stress on supply is at a near historic high.
I'm not worried about prices as much as I am about pollution and the waste of a non-renewable resource.
Cheers, Alan
Alan Browne - 29 Apr 2006 20:11 GMT I found this on the web a couple years ago and like its simple common sense. The scary things are:
1. There is nowhere near a "100 year" supply of oil identified. 2. The growth rate in consumption is greater than 5% !
The Mirage of a Growing Fuel Supply
By Dr. EVAR D. NERING
SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — When I discussed the exponential function in the first-semester calculus classes that I taught, I invariably used consumption of a nonrenewable natural resource as an example. Since we are now engaged in a national debate about energy policy, it may be useful to talk about the mathematics involved in making a rational decision about resource use.
In my classes, I described the following hypothetical situation. We have a 100-year supply of a resource, say oil — that is, the oil would last 100 years if it were consumed at its current rate. But the oil is consumed at a rate that grows by 5 percent each year. How long would it last under these circumstances? This is an easy calculation; the answer is about 36 years.
Oh, but let's say we underestimated the supply, and we actually have a 1,000-year supply. At the same annual 5 percent growth rate in use, how long will this last? The answer is about 79 years.
Then let us say we make a striking discovery of more oil yet — a bonanza — and we now have a 10,000-year supply. At our same rate of growing use, how long would it last? Answer: 125 years.
Estimates vary for how long currently known oil reserves will last, though they are usually considerably less than 100 years. But the point of this analysis is that it really doesn't matter what the estimates are. There is no way that a supply-side attack on America's energy problem can work.
The exponential function describes the behavior of any quantity whose rate of change is proportional to its size. Compound interest is the most commonly encountered example — it would produce exponential growth if the interest were calculated at a continuing rate. I have heard public statements that use "exponential" as though it describes a large or sudden increase. But exponential growth does not have to be large, and it is never sudden.
Rather, it is inexorable.
Calculations also show that if consumption of an energy resource is allowed to grow at a steady 5 percent annual rate, a full doubling of the available supply will not be as effective as reducing that growth rate by half — to 2.5 percent. Doubling the size of the oil reserve will add at most 14 years to the life expectancy of the resource if we continue to use it at the currently increasing rate, no matter how large it is currently. On the other hand, halving the growth of consumption will almost double the life expectancy of the supply, no matter what it is.
This mathematical reality seems to have escaped the politicians pushing to solve our energy problem by simply increasing supply. Building more power plants and drilling for more oil is exactly the wrong thing to do, because it will encourage more use. If we want to avoid dire consequences, we need to find the political will to reduce the growth in energy consumption to zero — or even begin to consume less.
I must emphasize that reducing the growth rate is not what most people are talking about now when they advocate conservation; the steps they recommend are just Band-Aids. If we increase the gas mileage of our automobiles and then drive more miles, for example, that will not reduce the growth rate.
Reducing the growth of consumption means living closer to where we work or play. It means telecommuting. It means controlling population growth. It means shifting to renewable energy sources.
It is not, perhaps, necessary to cut our use of oil, but it is essential that we cut the rate of increase at which we consume it. To do otherwise is to leave our descendants in an impoverished world.
Evar D. Nering is professor emeritus of mathematics at Arizona State University.
Nightmare - 03 Jun 2006 23:45 GMT Agree,and I don't understand this,if the price on per barrel of oil increase to $75 well ok if the price on gas increase BUT if the oil hets down to lets say $70 per barrel,gas will maybe go down just a couple of cents per liter? Where I live the price is around $1,50 per liter and it will increase to maybe $1,60 when the vacation season is here I've done much to put my need for gas down a cheap economic car it needs around 0,6 liters per 10 kilometers
But as I said on top War For Better Price On Gas Regards Nightmare
> We need to send a message to the oil companies! If everyone boycots gas > stations on the 20th and 21st of April, maybe they'll get the hint?! It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BOYCOT GAS STATIONS! think of the millions they'll lose. darthpup - 04 Jun 2006 00:24 GMT We will not run out of oil. The resource of proven reserves available from methane hydrate alone is greater than all petroleum consumed since the start of the industrial revolution. Drive less, spend less, live longer!
Nightmare - 05 Jun 2006 14:30 GMT Well,drive less nowadays even with my economic car before this I had a Volvo and it was a real thirsty piece of car so the next step is to sell the car and blow up the gas stations THEN we WILL SAVE the last drops of oil BUT are you serious? the modern society BUILDS on transportation so if everyone begins to use bicykles we will go back in time are you willing to do that? NOT ME but saving gas AND environment IS IMPORTANT Regards Nightmare
> We will not run out of oil. > The resource of proven reserves available from methane hydrate alone is > greater than all petroleum consumed since the start of the industrial > revolution. > Drive less, spend less, live longer! darthpup - 05 Jun 2006 14:43 GMT Here is a very informative site for ideas on how to actually increase mpg:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency_Retrofits
Some good, some bad, some pure BS.
Nightmare - 05 Jun 2006 15:32 GMT Informative and I know at least a couple of friends of mine that used the chipping and the increased mileage then you have tires and stuff too I wonder what I could about my car hmm I can drive 14 kilometers on 1 liter gas 95 unleaded Thanx for the link Regards Nightmare
> Here is a very informative site for ideas on how to actually increase > mpg: > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fuel_Efficiency_Retrofits > > Some good, some bad, some pure BS.
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