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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2007

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Chrysler - did Cerberus blow it?

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George Orwell - 16 May 2007 18:20 GMT
Wall Street Journal - May 26, 2007

..From the standpoint of financial outcomes, there are two kinds of
auto makers: momentum companies and hit-driven companies. A momentum
auto maker enjoys strong consumer confidence, produces sound but
usually unflashy vehicles, and is very good at the blocking-and-
tackling aspects of the business, both technical and managerial. Toyota
and Honda are momentum auto makers; so are BMW and PSA, Volvo and
Subaru too, on a smaller scale. GM used to be one and so was Nissan,
but both committed a cascade of managerial and product gaffes that
erased their momentum and dropped them into auto-maker purgatory...

Chrysler has been the epitome of a hit-driven company for more than 50
years. At its ultimate perigee in the late 1970s, buffeted by an
extensive new-product losing streak and the unusual expenses of meeting
new fuel economy and safety standards, it was headed for bankruptcy. A
modest federal loan guarantee and some artificial respiration from the
UAW gave newly arrived CEO Lee Iacocca time for some inspired
improvisational first aid -- and ultimately the introduction of a real
home run product, the first front-wheel-drive, garageable, car-based
minivan.

Then the new product pipeline dried up, the numbers headed south and
Chrysler seemed perigee-bound again. Somehow Mr. Iacocca's team not
only managed a reprise of its earlier rabbit-from-the-hat trick but did
it with a trifecta of hit products: the muscular Ram pick-up, the
civilized Jeep Grand Cherokee SUV and the so-called "cab-forward" sleek
Dodge Intrepid midsize sedan. Chrysler became suddenly the most
profitable auto maker on the planet. Unfortunately the gush of profits
began to flow only after the Chrysler board, mistakenly convinced that
Mr. Iacocca had lost his fastball, handed him the proverbial gold watch
and replaced him with Robert Eaton, freshly imported from General
Motors.

Mr. Eaton encountered a paradox: Buyers were flooding the dealerships
for the spiffy new vehicles developed under Mr. Iacocca's leadership,
yet by any objective evaluation -- fit and finish, product durability
and reliability, or plant productivity -- Chrysler was a basket case.
He assumed that fixing these problems was of higher priority than new
hits. This was a big mistake but Mr. Eaton turned out to be the
luckiest man in Motown. At the 1998 Detroit Motor Show, Daimler-Benz
chairman Jurgen Schrempp button-holed him, apparently out of the blue,
to propose the great transnational auto maker that would be created by
exchanging Daimler shares for Chrysler shares.

Herr Schrempp's penance for undertaking the least diligent due
diligence in recent corporate history was spending $36 billion on an
acquisition which almost instantly plummeted deeply into the red. It
was making better quality vehicles more efficiently, thanks to Bob
Eaton's efforts, but hardly anyone wanted them. The magic had vanished
and despite heroic efforts by Dieter Zetsche, parachuted in from
Stuttgart in 2000 to turn things around, it has not returned.

Even mini-hits like the Chrysler 300 http://snipurl.com/Chrysler_300 -
the big gangsta-car with the narrow windows and powerful hemi engine,
is proving to have no legs in the market. Worst of all, Chrysler's most
recent new offerings have been panned by Consumer Reports, the great
auto market influencer, as both mechanically and cosmetically deficient.

Mr. Zetsche, rewarded in January 2006 with the top job at then
DaimlerChrysler, had already cleaned things up at Chrysler the way a
financially oriented new owner like Cerberus might do it. Perhaps Mr.
Feinberg and his colleagues can push even further, persuading the union
to accept give-ups, but it will have to overcome a natural suspicion at
Solidarity House, UAW headquarters, of financial hotshots with a Park
Avenue business address. To the UAW, Cerberus has deep pockets, a
situation much different from 1979-80, when Chrysler was a stand-alone
entity and could not survive without union help.

Cerberus may find some imaginative way of slashing Chrysler's inflated
dealer body, along with the market ineffectiveness and internal cost
burden it imposes on the company. But this is likely to be both
expensive and time-consuming. GM says it paid out $2 billion to close
down its Oldsmobile network. That may have been its out-of- pocket
cost, but if staff time for negotiating dealer payoffs were factored in
the real cost was undoubtedly much higher. And Chrysler dealers are
legitimately wary, no matter who owns the company. Late last year they
had considerable numbers of unordered and unwanted vehicles thrust down
their throats to get them off Chrysler's own books.

Yet cutting costs doesn't make an auto maker successful or profitable.
Chrysler demonstrated in its two recoveries under Mr. Iacocca that
costs can be high and quality modest, but attractive products can make
these into virtual non-issues.

There's the rub: What even Dieter Zetsche could not accomplish was the
mysterious feat of generating hit products. And hitmakers are hard to
find. Cerberus has brought aboard a well-known auto industry ronin,
Wolfgang Bernhard, as an advisor, but Mr. Bernhard, Chrysler COO from
2000 to 2004, was on the bridge with Mr. Zetsche not when the company
was generating hits, but rather when it wasn't.

Cerberus, too, is taking on serious downside risk. Chrysler's physical
assets are essentially worthless because no one else will want them,
and its marketplace equity is modest at best. The Dodge and Chrysler
brands have only slight cachet although Jeep remains relatively iconic.
How long it will remain iconic is questionable. The company has been
endeavoring to exploit the brand, flooding its product line with
dubious and slow-selling new variants.

Unloading 80% of Chrysler is almost certainly a good deal for Daimler.
Smart and resourceful as the Cerberus principals may be, this time they
could be significantly over their heads.
Art - 16 May 2007 23:34 GMT
Interesting article but the history does not seem exactly accurate.  Indeed
the new cars introduced in 93/94 had fit and finish problems, but they were
great looking and I see tons of them still around so owners certainly got
their money's worth.  Just saw someone driving a 94 LHS identical to the one
I sold in 99.  Too bad Chrysler didn't improve them and keep the basic
looks.  But in 98/99 they introduced much higher quality cars.
Unfortunately except for the 300M, they were all pretty ugly.  However
before the merger they were showing some great looking follow-up models.
Too bad Mercedes killed them and put Chyrsler products years behind
schedule.
Ted Mittelstaedt - 17 May 2007 09:30 GMT
> Interesting article but the history does not seem exactly accurate.  Indeed
> the new cars introduced in 93/94 had fit and finish problems, but they were
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Too bad Mercedes killed them and put Chyrsler products years behind
> schedule.

Exactly.  It's pretty clear to me what Chrysler has to do - they have to
take square aim at the Mercedes market.  Dieter Zetsche knew this well,
but he also knew his stockholders wouldn't tolerate their precious Mercedes
brand being attacked by Chrysler vehicles.

Give Chrysler 2-3 years and some intelligent designers who aren't trying to
make political compromises to keep stockholders happy, and they will
pull out of it.

Ted
SnoMan - 21 May 2007 18:13 GMT
>Give Chrysler 2-3 years and some intelligent designers who aren't trying to
>make political compromises to keep stockholders happy, and they will
>pull out of it.

Its going to take a lot more than that. The only way Chysler is going
to be able to buy time and stay in bussiness to try to tuen around is
through some serious cost cutting starting with labor. If they do not,
it will not be too long before they are on the auction/chopping block
because Cerberus has neither the money or desire to bankroll them in
current state of operations. Whether Chrysler survives now is more up
to the workforce than the owner because without  a big reduction in
operating cost there will be no time or money for R&D for new model to
sell.  
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
who - 22 May 2007 17:42 GMT
> Its going to take a lot more than that. The only way Chysler is going
> to be able to buy time and stay in bussiness to try to tuen around is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> operating cost there will be no time or money for R&D for new model to
> sell.  
Based on what Cerberus did with their involvement with the Air Canada
recovery, they will tighten up everything and will try higher prices for
a slightly premium product.  Less volume higher prices.
This could mean the dumping of some vehicle lines, just as A/C gave up
some less profitable routes.
http://www.cerberuscapital.com/profiles/ace_aviation.html
SnoMan - 23 May 2007 02:41 GMT
>> Its going to take a lot more than that. The only way Chysler is going
>> to be able to buy time and stay in bussiness to try to tuen around is
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>some less profitable routes.
>http://www.cerberuscapital.com/profiles/ace_aviation.html

It is going to take more than that, Daimler spent 500 million to sell
Chyrsler after all the money was spent (most of it went back to
Chysler Financail) and you do you spend a extra 500 milion to sell a
company unless it stands to cost you a lot more to keep it. Chysler
has major labor cost problems and either they reduce them a lot with
major consesions or they go out of bussiness because there will be no
3rd option here.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
who - 23 May 2007 05:52 GMT
> It is going to take more than that, Daimler spent 500 million to sell
> Chyrsler after all the money was spent (most of it went back to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> major consesions or they go out of bussiness because there will be no
> 3rd option here.

DC could afford to pay to dump Chrysler, they sucked cash out of
Chrysler after the take over.
That Chrysler cash got DC profitable again.

DC will still own part of Chrysler so I expect they will still benefit
from Chryslers higher parts volume and lower costs.
Also I expect Chrysler will still benefit from what they get from
Mercedes.
So both sides should be happy; at least for a while.
SnoMan - 23 May 2007 21:33 GMT
>DC could afford to pay to dump Chrysler, they sucked cash out of
>Chrysler after the take over.
>That Chrysler cash got DC profitable again.

They lost their arse with that purchase and made nothing off of it.
Bought it for 35 billion and sold it for a bit over 7 billion. Chysler
has got not cash to carry them through unless they get major
concessions and many industry analists agree too.

>DC will still own part of Chrysler so I expect they will still benefit
>from Chryslers higher parts volume and lower costs.
>Also I expect Chrysler will still benefit from what they get from
>Mercedes.
>So both sides should be happy; at least for a while.

Only one side is happy here and it is not Chysler. I will be really
surprized if they are still around in a few years. Not that I want
them to fail but the deck is stacked against them right now.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Lloyd - 24 May 2007 20:28 GMT
> In article <hm6753t47bosr58v9b2aa6k4mfmlakf...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> DC could afford to pay to dump Chrysler, they sucked cash out of
> Chrysler after the take over.

That is patently false.  Chrysler _had_ no cash.

> That Chrysler cash got DC profitable again.

BS.  DC was profitable before the merger and except for 1 year, it's
been Chrysler dragging down the profits ever since.

> DC will still own part of Chrysler so I expect they will still benefit
> from Chryslers higher parts volume and lower costs.

Yep, those low cost Compass and Caliber interiors.

> Also I expect Chrysler will still benefit from what they get from
> Mercedes.
> So both sides should be happy; at least for a while.
Abby.Normal - 24 May 2007 21:09 GMT
Mercedes are for rag heads and Europeans.  they are ugly, expensive, and
ride like logging wagons.  wayyyy over priced and expensive to get worked
on.  nothing good to say about them.  send them all back to Europe or that
toile in the desert - the Middle East.  And while you are at it - have them
each tow a BMW - another POS made by a country that cares less about
pollution than any other.  besides france of course.  there is a real
winner.

"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by delusional, illogical
liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
turd by the clean end."

>> In article <hm6753t47bosr58v9b2aa6k4mfmlakf...@4ax.com>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> Mercedes.
>> So both sides should be happy; at least for a while.
DeserTBoB - 25 May 2007 03:50 GMT
>Mercedes are for rag heads and Europeans.  they are ugly, expensive, and
>ride like logging wagons.  wayyyy over priced and expensive to get worked
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
>turd by the clean end." <snip>

Thanks for that.  Always good to have a moron expose himself to
everyone on Usenet once in awhile.
Lloyd - 25 May 2007 20:44 GMT
> Mercedes are for rag heads and Europeans.

Gee, a bigot heard from.

> they are ugly, expensive, and
> ride like logging wagons.

And a dumb one at that.

>wayyyy over priced and expensive to get worked
> on.  nothing good to say about them.

Wouldn't expect you to know anything.

>send them all back to Europe or that
> toile in the desert - the Middle East.  And while you are at it - have them
> each tow a BMW - another POS made by a country that cares less about
> pollution than any other.  besides france of course.  there is a real
> winner.

So, burn any crosses lately?

> "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by delusional, illogical
> liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
> which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
> turd by the clean end."
Dori A Schmetterling - 25 May 2007 21:46 GMT
There speaks a real connoisseur...

BTW, for us Europeans, what's a "rag head"?

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
> Mercedes are for rag heads and Europeans.  they are ugly, expensive, and
> ride like logging wagons.  wayyyy over priced and expensive to get worked
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pollution than any other.  besides france of course.  there is a real
> winner.
[...]
Dave Milne - 26 May 2007 05:01 GMT
Have you *ever* been in a Mercedes ?? Overpriced and expensive perhaps, but
you can't fault the ride. Certainly not if you come from the US which has a
history of deriving its ride quality from the marine industry and has been
slow to give up cart springs. Wait, that would be logging waggon springs.

Dave Milne, Scotland.

> Mercedes are for rag heads and Europeans.  they are ugly, expensive, and
> ride like logging wagons.  wayyyy over priced and expensive to get worked
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> >> Mercedes.
> >> So both sides should be happy; at least for a while.
who - 27 May 2007 02:00 GMT
> Have you *ever* been in a Mercedes ?? Overpriced and expensive perhaps, but
> you can't fault the ride. Certainly not if you come from the US which has a
> history of deriving its ride quality from the marine industry and has been
> slow to give up cart springs. Wait, that would be logging waggon springs.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland.
You are very out of date when is comes to NA cars.
I rent a UK (sold, none made there anymore) car every year or so, thus I
know what I'm talking about.
Dave Milne - 28 May 2007 10:19 GMT
If you read my post carefully, you will note I said "was slow to give up"
not "hasn't given up".
Although you rent a UK car every year or so, I bet you don't drive nearly as
many of them as I do...

Dave Milne, Scotland

> > Have you *ever* been in a Mercedes ?? Overpriced and expensive perhaps, but
> > you can't fault the ride. Certainly not if you come from the US which has a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I rent a UK (sold, none made there anymore) car every year or so, thus I
> know what I'm talking about.
Lloyd - 22 May 2007 19:07 GMT
> > Interesting article but the history does not seem exactly accurate.
> Indeed
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Exactly.  It's pretty clear to me what Chrysler has to do - they have to
> take square aim at the Mercedes market.

Because everybody who's tried this has been so successful, right?  GM
with Cadillac, Ford with Volvo, Nissan with Infiniti...

Good think you're not being paid for advice.

>Dieter Zetsche knew this well,
> but he also knew his stockholders wouldn't tolerate their precious Mercedes
> brand being attacked by Chrysler vehicles.

Oh BS.  Chrysler has never competed in the Mercedes market, and nobody
in the market for a Mercedes or BMW would even consider Chrysler.

> Give Chrysler 2-3 years and some intelligent designers who aren't trying to
> make political compromises to keep stockholders happy, and they will
> pull out of it.
>
> Ted
who - 23 May 2007 05:29 GMT
> Oh BS.  Chrysler has never competed in the Mercedes market, and nobody
> in the market for a Mercedes or BMW would even consider Chrysler.

Generally you're correct, but I've heard a number of hemi buyers say
they changed from Mercedes to Chrysler because that drive train was
almost half the price of the Mercedes.

However most Mercedes buyers don't buy for performance, just image.
We have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in
the city and seldom are seen on the highway.
Billzz - 23 May 2007 06:02 GMT
>> Oh BS.  Chrysler has never competed in the Mercedes market, and nobody
>> in the market for a Mercedes or BMW would even consider Chrysler.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> We have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in
> the city and seldom are seen on the highway.

Well, we lived in Germany for five years and Mercedes, in Germany, are not
de-tuned as they are for America.  Over 100mph is not unusual on the
Autobahn, although it may be slower today.  I am sure that there are many
Mercedes owners, in America,  who do not know how to drive a Mercedes.  But
I never drove a Mercedes in Germany, I drove an E-Type Jaguar, so what do I
know.
who - 23 May 2007 08:27 GMT
> Well, we lived in Germany for five years and Mercedes, in Germany, are not
> de-tuned as they are for America.  Over 100mph is not unusual on the
> Autobahn, although it may be slower today.  I am sure that there are many
> Mercedes owners, in America,  who do not know how to drive a Mercedes.  But
> I never drove a Mercedes in Germany, I drove an E-Type Jaguar, so what do I
> know.
Not de-tuned here, but hopefully tuned for our driving speeds else the
mileage at our much lower speeds is poor.
Germany needs to put some limits on the Autobahn speeds. which are very
bad for  the environment and unfortunately sometimes bad for those in
the very fast moving cars.

I shake my head and chuckle when I see someone here driving a car
designed for twice our speeds, just tooling along here.
What a waste of money and a misapplication of technology.

It's not how to drive a Mercedes, it's just that the rich who buy them
here  are gentle mature drivers who seldom even go on the highway and
never in snow; thankfully.
Dori A Schmetterling - 23 May 2007 23:29 GMT
Now that IS poppycock.

1.  Germany does not NEED to put in general speed limits.  The environmental
impact is not as great as some people like to think.  Anyway, huge chunks of
the German motorway network are already limited (to 130 km/h or less) and
much of the time in certain sections traffic is too heavy to go much above
the speed limit.

Furthermore, stretches of motorway have a guide max of 130 km/h.  Whilst
that is not a legal limit, it could have insurance payout implications when
having an accident above that.

2.  Mercedes is not only for the rich.  It is for everyone.  Even omitting
the A and B Classes, in Germany the C is a top-selling car and has been for
years, as is the BMW 3.  (around number 5 or better).

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
[...]
> Not de-tuned here, but hopefully tuned for our driving speeds else the
> mileage at our much lower speeds is poor.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> here  are gentle mature drivers who seldom even go on the highway and
> never in snow; thankfully.
Dori A Schmetterling - 23 May 2007 23:22 GMT
And on average S-Class Mercs put in very high annual mileages because senior
execs use them.

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
[...]
> Well, we lived in Germany for five years and Mercedes, in Germany, are not
> de-tuned as they are for America.  Over 100mph is not unusual on the
> Autobahn, although it may be slower today.  I am sure that there are many
> Mercedes owners, in America,  who do not know how to drive a Mercedes.
> But I never drove a Mercedes in Germany, I drove an E-Type Jaguar, so what
> do I know.
Matt Macchiarolo - 24 May 2007 00:41 GMT
>> However most Mercedes buyers don't buy for performance, just image.
>> We have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> But I never drove a Mercedes in Germany, I drove an E-Type Jaguar, so what
> do I know.
100+ mph is still the norm on rural autobahn for the larger cars, the
ubiquitous econoboxes kept around 120kph, and speed limits in the cities. I
was there last month, rented a BMW 3-series *diesel,* what a great car that
was. Had it up to 228KPH (about 140mph) at one time but usually I kept it
around 160-170KPH (100mph) and still returned about 26mpg. The only cars
passing me were the big Audis and Mercedes.

No diesel smell, no clattering, very smooth. When will these diesels be
available in the US?
Dori A Schmetterling - 28 May 2007 20:13 GMT
Is the low-sulfur diesel available all over the US yet?

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
[...]

> No diesel smell, no clattering, very smooth. When will these diesels be
> available in the US?
Matt Macchiarolo - 28 May 2007 22:16 GMT
15ppm "Ultra-Low Sulfur" diesel was mandated in January 2007. I assume it
was mandated all over the country, that's what we have in Michigan.

> Is the low-sulfur diesel available all over the US yet?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> No diesel smell, no clattering, very smooth. When will these diesels be
>> available in the US?
Ted Mittelstaedt - 30 May 2007 09:15 GMT
> 15ppm "Ultra-Low Sulfur" diesel was mandated in January 2007. I assume it
> was mandated all over the country, that's what we have in Michigan.

We have it in OR also.  What the ironic thing is, is that this mandate is
one of the reasons fuel prices went up - it's more costly to refine heavy
crude to get rid of the sulfur - yet the diesel prices here are lower than
gasoline.

Ted
miles - 30 May 2007 14:05 GMT
> We have it in OR also.  What the ironic thing is, is that this mandate is
> one of the reasons fuel prices went up - it's more costly to refine heavy
> crude to get rid of the sulfur - yet the diesel prices here are lower than
> gasoline.

I don't know what the knew mandate actually costs but in general diesel
is far cheaper to refine than gasoline.
Matt Macchiarolo - 31 May 2007 02:35 GMT
Typically diesel prices go down in the summer because they are tied to home
heating oil.

>> We have it in OR also.  What the ironic thing is, is that this mandate is
>> one of the reasons fuel prices went up - it's more costly to refine heavy
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I don't know what the knew mandate actually costs but in general diesel is
> far cheaper to refine than gasoline.
Dori A Schmetterling - 31 May 2007 20:06 GMT
Yes.

BTW diesel is only very cheap to refine when it's a marginal product, as it
was in the old days.

Now that diesel demand is greater (in Europe, at least) than the proportion
in which it is produced in the cracking process it has become expensive.

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
> Typically diesel prices go down in the summer because they are tied to
> home heating oil.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> I don't know what the knew mandate actually costs but in general diesel
>> is far cheaper to refine than gasoline.
Steve - 31 May 2007 21:27 GMT
> Yes.
>
> BTW diesel is only very cheap to refine when it's a marginal product, as it
> was in the old days.

Exactly. Refineries can no longer get rid of unwanted sulfur by leaving
it in diesel....
Lloyd - 31 May 2007 19:59 GMT
> > We have it in OR also.  What the ironic thing is, is that this mandate is
> > one of the reasons fuel prices went up - it's more costly to refine heavy
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I don't know what the knew mandate actually costs but in general diesel
> is far cheaper to refine than gasoline.

Diesel here in Georgia was more expensive than premium unleaded a year
ago, about the same a month ago, and 20 cents a gal cheaper now.  The
interesting thing is, diesel has stayed the same, around $2.80 a
gallon, while gas has gone up.
SnoMan - 23 May 2007 21:36 GMT
>Generally you're correct, but I've heard a number of hemi buyers say
>they changed from Mercedes to Chrysler because that drive train was
>almost half the price of the Mercedes.

To compare a Chysler hemi to the quality of a Mercedes motor and drive
train is very wishful thinking. The Hemi is well below it in
refinement.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Joe - 24 May 2007 04:45 GMT
> However most Mercedes buyers don't buy for performance, just image.
> We have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in
> the city and seldom are seen on the highway.

Well, you can sure say Mercedes owners don't buy for styling.  Mercedes
hasn't used any.  If styling was important, Mercedes would have gone out of
business 40 years ago.
Dan C - 24 May 2007 04:56 GMT
>> However most Mercedes buyers don't buy for performance, just image. We
>> have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in the
>> city and seldom are seen on the highway.

> Well, you can sure say Mercedes owners don't buy for styling.  Mercedes
> hasn't used any.  If styling was important, Mercedes would have gone out
> of business 40 years ago.

I'd have to disagree with that.  Most Mercedes (other than the "SUV's")
look great.  You don't think an SL500 looks sharp?  Even the little 230
Kompressor looks pretty hot.

Signature

"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".

who - 25 May 2007 07:38 GMT
> > However most Mercedes buyers don't buy for performance, just image.
> > We have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hasn't used any.  If styling was important, Mercedes would have gone out of
> business 40 years ago.

Yes in the past Mercedes cars were a bit ugly, but you obviously haven't
looked at the recent Mercedes E series of cars.
IMO they are lovely looking.
Mercedes passed on the ugly looks to the Chrysler 300.
Lloyd - 25 May 2007 20:42 GMT
> > In article <1179857266.830109.152...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> hasn't used any.  If styling was important, Mercedes would have gone out of
> business 40 years ago.

Geez, what an objective statement.  You might inform yourself that
many people consider a number of MB models gorgeous -- especially the
S, CL, SL, and CLS.  OTOH, the Compass, Caliber, Charger... need I go
on?
Dori A Schmetterling - 28 May 2007 20:15 GMT
On the whole Mercs have been and are classy and timeless.

That's why a 20-yr-old Merc can still pass muster today.

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> > In article <1179857266.830109.152...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> S, CL, SL, and CLS.  OTOH, the Compass, Caliber, Charger... need I go
> on?
Joe - 29 May 2007 02:25 GMT
> On the whole Mercs have been and are classy and timeless.
>
> That's why a 20-yr-old Merc can still pass muster today.
>
> DAS

Timeless is a nice way to put it.  They certainly aren't out of style.  20
year old Mercs don't have any character lines on them anywhere, or any kind
of styling features.  They weren't really styled at all, just basically a
block of soap.

I admit new ones are quite a bit more styled. I was just saying they didn't
actually use styling for a long time, say 1960 to 2000.  I'm not saying I
didn't like the styling - I'm saying there wasn't any.  If you don't put
lines on something, it's just flat.
Dori A Schmetterling - 31 May 2007 20:07 GMT
There is no such thing as "no styling".  Something may be bland in the eyes
of the beholder, but that is a different matter.

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> On the whole Mercs have been and are classy and timeless.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> saying I didn't like the styling - I'm saying there wasn't any.  If you
> don't put lines on something, it's just flat.
Steve - 31 May 2007 21:28 GMT
> There is no such thing as "no styling".

Look at a Scion XB or Honda Element, and then say that again with a
straight face.

Oh yea, there IS such a thing as "no styling."
Will Honea - 31 May 2007 23:01 GMT
>> There is no such thing as "no styling".
>
> Look at a Scion XB or Honda Element, and then say that again with a
> straight face.
>
> Oh yea, there IS such a thing as "no styling."

No styling and butt-ugly are two entirely different things.  Styling is a
matter of taste, the other is simply inexcusable.

Signature

Will Honea

Pink Freud - 01 Jun 2007 02:25 GMT
>> There is no such thing as "no styling".
>
> Look at a Scion XB or Honda Element, and then say that again with a
> straight face.
>
> Oh yea, there IS such a thing as "no styling."

With all due respect, I must disagree...

How about plain old 'bad styling' or possibly worse, 'functional styling'?

The original Beetle was styled for the functionality of that car, and with
Third Reich artistic standards.

The Citroen 2CV the same, minus the Third Reich artistic constraints.

Many more examples up to the time of those you've mentioned; again, styled
for the function only.

And my favourite for sheer ugliness, The Aztek. Had to pass one at my
corner -- a bright yellow brick -- for many months, and frequently had to
answer the question, "What in hell is /that/ monstrosity?" It too was
styled for it's function.

People these days drive more 'vehicles' than 'cars', and the vehicles
generally have the artistic appeal of any military vehicle. And the cars
have been homogenized to aesthetically offend nobody, with the
side-effect of pleasing very few. Which is why a typical highway today
looks like a mass of military maneuvers mixed with mostly
undifferentiateable little buglets milling around like bees in a hive or
ants in a hill.

Just my $0.02 Canadian....
Joe Pfeiffer - 01 Jun 2007 06:22 GMT
> > There is no such thing as "no styling".
>
> Look at a Scion XB or Honda Element, and then say that again with a
> straight face.
>
> Oh yea, there IS such a thing as "no styling."

No, there isn't.  There's "deliberately styled to look as if it was
just an industrial produce", but trust me -- just as much money went
into the styling of a Scion XB as a Mazda RX-8.
Billzz - 01 Jun 2007 07:00 GMT
>> > There is no such thing as "no styling".
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> just an industrial produce", but trust me -- just as much money went
> into the styling of a Scion XB as a Mazda RX-8.

Piero Drago had little money but designed a car which introduced many new
design features.  It's at the opposite end of the scale as the most desired
car of all time, the 1967 Ferrari 330 P4.  Probably a lot more money went
into the "style" of cars which no one wants.

http://www.ferrariworld.com/FWorld/fw/index.jsp
Billzz - 01 Jun 2007 07:07 GMT
>>> > There is no such thing as "no styling".
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> http://www.ferrariworld.com/FWorld/fw/index.jsp

Oops.  I meant Piero Drogo.  Very interesting story...

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-dropie.html
Lloyd - 24 May 2007 20:27 GMT
> In article <1179857266.830109.152...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they changed from Mercedes to Chrysler because that drive train was
> almost half the price of the Mercedes.

So?  You can get a V8 in a Chevy Impala for less than a Cadillac, or
in a Crown Vic for less than a Jag.

> However most Mercedes buyers don't buy for performance, just image.

You knoweth not of which you speak.

> We have many Mercedes vehicles around here and they just put along in
> the city and seldom are seen on the highway.

You knoweth not of which you speak.
Dave Milne - 26 May 2007 04:58 GMT
Lloyd Parker leases a Mercedes because he is "fiscally conservative".

Right Lloyd ?

Dave Milne, Scotland

> > In article <1179857266.830109.152...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> You knoweth not of which you speak.
Some O - 17 May 2007 17:23 GMT
> Interesting article but the history does not seem exactly accurate.  Indeed
> the new cars introduced in 93/94 had fit and finish problems, but they were
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Too bad Mercedes killed them and put Chyrsler products years behind
> schedule.

Yes the LH cars were and still are great.
I've never kept a car so long as my '95 Concord and was planning to sell
it when it was 10 yrs old, but Chrysler had nothing. Fortunately my
maintenance has been minor in nature and it still performs as new,
including the great handling; still with the original shocks.
My wife loves her '91 Sebring, but I'm just a bit squashed in the front
seats and most of us know of it's 2.7L engine. >:)
The 300M was lovely and I was considering buying a few years old one,
but it has too little ground clearance for me and I'm not into leather
seats.
Now with the fast increasing gas prices my next vehicle objectives have
changed significantly. Only smaller cars now have my interest.

Yesterday as I approached my Concord from the front in a parking lot
something I saw gave me a chuckle. Right beside it was a new 300C in a
nice light grey paint job.  I had to chuckle because I never could stand
the 300C styling and seeing one beside my Concord really illustrated how
ugly I feel the 300  looks.  Yes some like it, but no one I know. What a
massive truck like grill and squashed window depth!

I could then see how the 300 body was designed. The Chrysler SUV
designers did it up to the windows, then the car designers did it from
there up. However the car designers couldn't use a normal window depth
that would give good vision and balance the vertical look, because the
roof would have been too high, approaching an SUV in height.  <:)
So we were blessed with the 300 line, which developed a love hate in
car buyers. Unfortunately for Chrysler the love 300 bunch are a bit
limited and their buying dropped off after a few years.

Unfortunately I had to leave quickly. I wanted to stay a while to see
what (little?) body drove that monster 300.
Some O - 17 May 2007 07:23 GMT
> Wall Street Journal - May 26, 2007
An article obviously ahead of it's time!    <:)
DeserTBoB - 21 May 2007 16:54 GMT
>Unfortunately the gush of profits
>began to flow only after the Chrysler board, mistakenly convinced that
>Mr. Iacocca had lost his fastball, handed him the proverbial gold watch
>and replaced him with Robert Eaton, freshly imported from General
>Motors. <snip>

Another example of flimsly WSJ "reporting."  Eaton was brought on
board LONG before this time by Iacocca to impose a system of financial
controls on what was basically an uncontrolled enterprise wasting
money on decisions made by incompetent middle and upper management. It
was Eaton's job to seek out "finance guys" to implement the new
system, which is exactly what he did at Woodward Avenue for GM.  He
was/is NOT a "car guy;" he's a beancounter of the same ilk whose
decisions at GM tanked the company.  Iacocca lists naming Eaton as his
successor as "the biggest mistake of my life."  Iacocca DID have a car
guy, Bob Lutz, now mired at a collapsing GM.

>Mr. Eaton encountered a paradox: Buyers were flooding the dealerships
>for the spiffy new vehicles developed under Mr. Iacocca's leadership,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>hits. This was a big mistake but Mr. Eaton turned out to be the
>luckiest man in Motown.<snip>

Didn't happen that way.  Eaton took over and immediately cut off all
but "skeleton" funding for the Belvidere Design Center, opining that
Chrysler Group's product line was "good enough" to compete.  Remember,
Eaton was NOT a "car guy."  At the same time, he slashed operating
costs at the plants through attrition-driven downsizing, cut quality
engineering staff and made other obvious gaffes, and then started
looking for a buyer.  THAT's where Schrempp fit into this...he was the
proverbial sucker to Eaton's polished pitch.  Eaton took the money and
ran like hell, knowing that hoary K-car based products and a
much-troubled LH platform were ticking time bombs.

>Even mini-hits like the Chrysler 300 http://snipurl.com/Chrysler_300 -
>the big gangsta-car with the narrow windows and powerful hemi engine,
>is proving to have no legs in the market. Worst of all, Chrysler's most
>recent new offerings have been panned by Consumer Reports, the great
>auto market influencer, as both mechanically and cosmetically deficient. <snip>

That's because they're shitty vehicles.  The 300 is exactly what the
WSJ writer implies...a "gangta car," only now purchased by blacks in
ghettos, who immediately deck them out with 22" baby buggy wheels and
thumper car stereos, only to have them repossessed a few months later.
The 300 is dead.  One only has to look at the depreciation of these
toadmobiles to know.  Another zero..the "Charger", as well as the
panned Caliber, which is not selling well at all due to bad design and
quality gaffes.

>Mr. Zetsche, rewarded in January 2006 with the top job at then
>DaimlerChrysler, had already cleaned things up at Chrysler the way a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>situation much different from 1979-80, when Chrysler was a stand-alone
>entity and could not survive without union help. <snip>

The UAW will have to tell Snow to shove it.  There will be no major
"give-ups."  Those days are over, and Labor is tired of fat cat
private equities like Cerberus crying poor mouth when they sit on
billions of cash in some very right wing pockets.  When Iacocca
negotiated cuts from UAW in the '80s, he did it from a position of
poverty, and UAW's Doug Fraser knew it.  Iacocca told the bargaining
committee that he had "lots of jobs at $17, but I haven't got any at
$20."  Fraser knew Iacocca was honest and reliable, and decided to
join in Chrysler's rehabilitation.  This isn't the case now.  Right
wing fruitcakes like Snow will look at that '80s episode as a sign of
weakness and will try to pin all of Chrysler Group's troubles on
labor, just as GM and Ford have tried to do.  Ain't gonna work this
time.

>There's the rub: What even Dieter Zetsche could not accomplish was the
>mysterious feat of generating hit products. And hitmakers are hard to
>find. Cerberus has brought aboard a well-known auto industry ronin,
>Wolfgang Bernhard, as an advisor, but Mr. Bernhard, Chrysler COO from
>2000 to 2004, was on the bridge with Mr. Zetsche not when the company
>was generating hits, but rather when it wasn't. <snip>

Bernhardt (correct spelling; again, the WSJ couldn't report the
temperature correctly) is a major mistake.  He's responsible for the
ghettomobile 300 and the now-failing Caliber and "Charger" as well as
other screw-ups.  Snow got him on board mainly because Snow doesn't
know crap about the car biz, and Dr. Z probably sold Bernardt to him
to get rid of him from D-B.

>Cerberus, too, is taking on serious downside risk. Chrysler's physical
>assets are essentially worthless because no one else will want them,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>endeavoring to exploit the brand, flooding its product line with
>dubious and slow-selling new variants. <snip>

If the "Dodge Nitro" is any example, they will fail at this.  My local
(D)C dealer cannot sell "Nitros" even with $3000 spiffs.

>Unloading 80% of Chrysler is almost certainly a good deal for Daimler.
>Smart and resourceful as the Cerberus principals may be <snip>

ROFLMAO!!!  Snow??  Quayle?  These are Republipedo Party silver
spooned dumbasses!  Snow almost tanked CSX and Quayle...well, all
anyone has to do in research there is listen to some of his "speehes"
and read some of his Bush-like scribblings to know what's going on
there...another born-rich, dyslexic moron á la George Dubya Bush, with
no credentials at all except those bestowed upon him by other
Republipedoes and the WSJ.

The WSJ has no credibility writing about Chrysler at all.  All you
have to do is dig up all those anti-loan-guarantee articles they wrote
back in '79, '80 and '81 to see that these Wall St. shills are just
that...shills.  A perfect takeover target for a right wing whack job
like Rupert Murdoch, sure, but any business/financial sagacity?
Fahgetddaboutit.  Remember, it was the WSJ's editorial statements that
said over and over that Chrysler under Iacocca would fail and the
cadaver should have been divied up among all the banks holding
Chrysler Corporation's debt.  WSJ also was guilty of false reporting
even then, repeatedly writing that the Federal loan guarantees were a
"giveaway."  Nothing could've been further from the truth.  They
pulled the same stunt during the Conrail reorganization, and cheered
when Snow made a severely undervalued bid, championed by "Newt The
Galoot" Gingrich in the House, to get CR's assets for pennies on the
taxpayer's dollar.
Some O - 22 May 2007 08:30 GMT
>  a
> much-troubled LH platform were ticking time bombs.
Nope, eventually a fine car. My '95 still runs as new.

> The 300 is dead.  One only has to look at the depreciation of these
> toadmobiles to know.
Not quite, but they made too many.
Doesn't sell here, many new 2006s for 30% off.

> Caliber, which is not selling well at all due to bad design and
> quality gaffes.
Styling for kids.  Good functional design though.

> If the "Dodge Nitro" is any example, they will fail at this.  My local
> (D)C dealer cannot sell "Nitros" even with $3000 spiffs.
UGH!  Honda Fit competition?
Lloyd - 22 May 2007 19:19 GMT
> On Wed, 16 May 2007 19:20:07 +0200 (CEST), George Orwell
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> panned Caliber, which is not selling well at all due to bad design and
> quality gaffes.

Charger is outselling 300 so far this year:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/05/01/046193.html

> >Mr. Zetsche, rewarded in January 2006 with the top job at then
> >DaimlerChrysler, had already cleaned things up at Chrysler the way a
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> If the "Dodge Nitro" is any example, they will fail at this.  My local
> (D)C dealer cannot sell "Nitros" even with $3000 spiffs.

25,000 sales so far this year isn't peanuts.

> >Unloading 80% of Chrysler is almost certainly a good deal for Daimler.
> >Smart and resourceful as the Cerberus principals may be <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Galoot" Gingrich in the House, to get CR's assets for pennies on the
> taxpayer's dollar.
Me - 25 May 2007 04:55 GMT
> The WSJ has no credibility writing about Chrysler at all.  All you
> have to do is dig up all those anti-loan-guarantee articles they wrote
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Galoot" Gingrich in the House, to get CR's assets for pennies on the
> taxpayer's dollar.

If anyone cares to think about it, the troubles in this country grow from
Wall Street -

when corporations which had been happily moving along for years making money
and reinvesting it back into new products, research and so on - all of a
sudden had to learn to concern themselves about stock prices, how to TRY to
keep from being the victims of a hostile take over and having years of
profits burned up to light some billionire's cigar, and most importantly how
to keep the market happy and support all the Wall St. silk suited parasites
that have sucked the blood out of and destroyed so many fine American
companies, to line their own greedy pockets.

WHO CARES about how many Americans we put out of work, let's squeeze out
another Gulfstream Bizjet, Custom yacht, Million dollar one bedroom
apartment or $500k sports car for us....

If the people that originally started the NYSE could see it today, they
would most probably be first ashamed at the way it has been corrupted over
the years, and then probably burn it down...

I do hope I don;t appear too harsh  =)

Bill
Spam away - 26 May 2007 09:12 GMT
> If anyone cares to think about it, the troubles in this country grow from
> Wall Street -
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>  I do hope I don;t appear too harsh  =)
You appear stupid, since you obviously aren't aware what has been going
on.
While the Big 3 have shown token interest in reasonably sized cars the
"import" manufacturers  have been building what consumers want at very
good quality.

Nothing to do with the NYSE or the UAW, just very poor management by the
Big 3.
DeserTBoB - 28 May 2007 02:53 GMT
>> If the people that originally started the NYSE could see it today, they
>> would most probably be first ashamed at the way it has been corrupted over
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Nothing to do with the NYSE or the UAW, just very poor management by the
>Big 3. <snip>

I don't think the OP is necessarily "stupid"...he's right about greed
in US business, but you're right about Big 3 management...THEY'RE the
culprits, and have all the money in the world to deflect blame onto
the floor workers through Rockefeller-like "PR" campaigns and
sniveling to their press puppet, the WSJ...one of the least credible
news organs on the planet.
 
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