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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2007Need New PCM?
I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. Last night I was driving it and it was fine. After parking the car, the car wouldn't start again. Had it towed to the shop, and this morning the shop tells me that the PCM has gone out on the car, and they need to replace the PCM. $1,000. They said they were able to start the car after trying it for 5 minutes with the key; but then it died when they went around the block. They said there's no power coming out of the PCM, and they checked everything else (starter, fuel line, etc.). My question is: is there anything else that might be causing the PCM to act this way? It just seems strange that the car only has 50,000 miles on it, and the PCM just "died." Does anyone have any ideas about what might be going on besides just that "the PCM is dead"? Thanks for any assistance! Neil > I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. Last > night I was driving it and it was fine. After parking the car, the car [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Neil Well Neil, That independent shop is trying to take your money. Assuming it is a PCM problem and this Vehicle has under 80k miles..... we know it isn't 8 years old yet. That part is covered under the 8/80 Federal Emissions Law. The independent shop knows this and should have instructed you to take it to the dealer. If the shop is just guessing at it and it is not a bad PCM the dealer will charge you a diagnostic fee to tell you what is wrong with your vehicle. Just curious, were they able to communicate with the PCM thru there scan tool? If so what were the codes.... Always get the fault codes documented on the RO Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech Thanks. I didn't know that about the Federal Emissions Law. They said that they're not getting any signals at all from the PCM, that it's totally dead. Also, interestingly enough, I found out that this morning, when they looked at the car, they were able to start it after about 5 minutes of trying. The guy then drove it around the block and it died a few minutes later. So I talked with another mechanic, and he said it sounds like the ignition switch, and that a bad ignition switch would cause it to die after it was started. But the mechanic at the first place was incensed when I suggested that, saying he tested the ignition switch, and that there's power coming from the ignition switch to the relays, but it's not getting to the PCM, and there's absolutely nothing coming out of the PCM. So I had it towed to the second place ($70 for the tow and another $85 for another estimate). This second place also says that he's seen that problem with Dodges before, where it looks like the PCM is dead, and then the customer had it replaced at the dealer, but then it died again two weeks later. >> I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. > Last [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech > Thanks. I didn't know that about the Federal Emissions Law. > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Glenn Beasley > > Chrysler Tech Why not take your vehicle to the dealer and heave them diagnosis it???? You had 2 independent shops look at this vehicle and you still have no idea what is wrong with it. Assuming it is the PCM Which I highly doubt. you could have saved so much money and headaches going from shop to shop. An ignition switch is just a guess too. Glenn Actually, the second shop just got it today, and he's not going to be able to look at it until Monday. He also doesn't think it's the PCM, and thinks it's the ignition switch. So I'm hoping he's able to correctly diagnose it. If not, then I guess it's to the dealer, as you state. Here's a bit of humor -- sad humor -- for you. I took the car to the first shop, and they quoted me $89 to diagnose. But when I go to pick up my car, he says $96. I figured it's tax, or whatever, so I pay it. Then I go home, look at my receipt, and see that it's a $7 "shop fee." So I call him up and ask him about this "shop fee." He says it's a fee that's automatically tacked on to cover their shop expenses ("soap, paper towels, etc." he says). He says, "Any shop you go to is going to add on a 'shop fee.'" So I say, "OK, apart from the fact that you guys didn't do anything except diagnose my car, you gave me a flat price of $89 for the diagnosis. If it's $96, then just say $96. Don't say $89 and then charge me $96." He says, "I understand. I understand." (He was the assistant manager at the shop, so, apparently, he was saying that it wasn't his call.) Anyway, I got the number for their corporate office, and am going to call on Tuesday and complain about this. I don't care about the $7, but I hate being lied to. Anyway, I'll probably never go to that shop again. >> Thanks. I didn't know that about the Federal Emissions Law. >> [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > switch is just a guess too. > Glenn > Actually, the second shop just got it today, and he's not going to be able > to look at it until Monday. He also doesn't think it's the PCM, and thinks [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > > switch is just a guess too. > > Glenn All shops do this, Technically it should only be charged to you if you used such items. The dealer I work at does not tack that charge on for diagnostic test only. Glenn Really? I'd never heard of it before. But, even so, his argument that it's tacked on to everything (even diagnostic tests), regardless, is faulty. They don't tack it onto oil changes -- and I'm sure they use a lot more soap and paper towels doing that than diagnostic testing. Anyway, just seems a little unscrupulous to not say, "You'll owe me $89 for the diagnostic" and then charge $96. At least say, "$89 plus shop fee." To me, a fixed price is a fixed price. >> Here's a bit of humor -- sad humor -- for you. I took the car to the >> first [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Glenn Just heard from the second shop. They said it's not the PCM, but the front module that supplies power to the PCM. So, assuming they're correct, I wonder if that's covered under the 8/80 law you mentioned. Thanks, Neil >> I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. > Last [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech In follow-up to what I wrote below, I just called the dealer repair shop. They said that, yes, the PCM is covered under 8/80, but the front control module (part number 04727079AC A) is not. However, he also said that catalytic converters aren't covered under 8/80, and an EPA web site I found (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/warr95fs.txt) says they are. So not sure if he's correct about the front control module. Neil > Just heard from the second shop. They said it's not the PCM, but the front > module that supplies power to the PCM. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Neil > In follow-up to what I wrote below, I just called the dealer repair shop. > They said that, yes, the PCM is covered under 8/80, but the front control [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > Neil Cat Converters 8/80 > Just heard from the second shop. They said it's not the PCM, but the front > module that supplies power to the PCM. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Glenn Beasley > > Chrysler Tech Front control Module 3/36 unless there is a Service contract Glenn Thanks, Glenn. I guess that means that I can't use the 8/80, unless the second shop is wrong. Not sure what to do. Don't really want to spend another $75 for a tow and another $85 for a diagnostic to have the dealer look at it. And if the second shop replaces the front control module and it fixes the problem, then I guess that means that that was the problem, right? Any advice? Thanks! Neil >> Just heard from the second shop. They said it's not the PCM, but the >> front [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > Glenn > Thanks, Glenn. I guess that means that I can't use the 8/80, unless the > second shop is wrong. [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > > > Glenn With the proper diagnostic test it shouldn't be seconded guessed. But if the PCM is faulty a dealer will have to perform the test to determine the problem Well, I guess I'll have the second shop replace the front control module, then. I came across an article which talked about problems 2003 and earlier Caravans were having with the front control module, and how they needed to be reflashed or replaced (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200507/ai_n14824042/pg_4). So I guess it seems logical that it could be it. Seems strange that the first place didn't say it was the front control module. They just said, "There's no power going into or coming out of the PCM. The PCM is dead and needs to be replaced." The second place said, "There's no power going into or coming out of the PCM. Therefore it's the front control module, which supplies power to the PCM." The second place's conclusion seems more logical. I don't see why the first place didn't say it was the front control module, since they both agreed there was no power going into the PCM. By the way, when I called the dealer's service center, in addition to telling me that the front control module wasn't covered under 8/80, the service rep told me that he'd never heard of a "front control module." I then called their parts department, gave them the part number (in case I had the name wrong), was told by the parts department that it was, indeed, called a "front control module," and called the service center back. When I called back, I talked to a different service rep. He also said that he had never heard of a "front control module." Strange. Neil >> Thanks, Glenn. I guess that means that I can't use the 8/80, unless the >> second shop is wrong. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > PCM is faulty a dealer will have to perform the test to determine the > problem Correction to what I wrote below. I just remembered that the first place said there's "power going to the relays, but it's not going past the relays to the PCM. The PCM is bad and needs to be replaced." The second place said there's no power going to the relays at all. > Well, I guess I'll have the second shop replace the front control module, > then. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> PCM is faulty a dealer will have to perform the test to determine the >> problem >Just heard from the second shop. They said it's not the PCM, but the front >module that supplies power to the PCM. Me too, I've never heard of a "front control module". Can you describe or give it's function? This seems rather odd. Pete Well, first, let me say that I called the parts department at the dealer, and gave them the part number that the shop gave me (04727079AC), and they confirmed that that was a "front control module." Second, an article I found describes problems with the Chrysler front control modules (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_200507/ai_n14824042/pg_4). (Based on that article, I know that the "A" in the above part number indicates that it's the earliest version of that part, and there have been subsequent letters, with the latest version having an "F" in that place.) But, as for what it is or what it does, I'm pretty much a novice, so I don't know. All I know is that it distributes power to the PCM and (I think) other components. Here's one for sale on eBay for a 2002 Caravan. It includes a picture: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-Dodge-Caravan-front-control-module_W0QQitemZ 160119260910QQcmdZViewItem . The description on that eBay listing says, "It mounts to the front of the power distribution center ("fusebox") under the hood near the battery." And that's about all I know. Neil >>Just heard from the second shop. They said it's not the PCM, but the front >>module that supplies power to the PCM. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Pete Well, just heard back from the second shop. They replaced the front control module, but it didn't solve the problem. They're now saying that they believe it's the PCM, like the first shop said. So, tomorrow, I'll have to have it towed to the dealer service center and have them do their own diagnostic. Fortunately, if it is the PCM, it's under warranty -- so thanks for letting me know about that!!!! Guess it would have been good to have taken it to the dealer after the first shop and save the towing and diagnostic fee at the second shop. Live and learn. Thanks again for your help! Neil >> I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. > Last [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech Here's an update. Car got to the dealer Friday night, but didn't hear back from them Saturday or today. So I called them just now. Guy says, "Your car's ready." I said, "What? What was wrong with it?" He says, "Main computer. It's all ready to go." I said, "Do I owe you anything?" He says, "Nope. Covered under warranty." So that was easy. So, once again I need to thank you. If you hadn't told me about the 8/80 warranty I'd be trying to scrounge together the $1,000 to get it fixed or just have my car sit unrepaired. So, thanks again! Neil >> I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. > Last [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Glenn Beasley > Chrysler Tech > I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. Last > night I was driving it and it was fine. After parking the car, the car [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Neil Always post as much information as possible. The engine size is? Glenn Sorry about that. It's a 3.3L 6 cylinder engine. >> I have a 2003 Dodge Caravan SE with a little under 50,000 miles on it. > Last [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Glenn >My question is: is there anything else that might be causing the PCM to act >this way? It just seems strange that the car only has 50,000 miles on it, >and the PCM just "died." Does anyone have any ideas about what might be >going on besides just that "the PCM is dead"? > >Thanks for any assistance! My best guess. 1 - Bad connection from battery to the ECM. The ECM is powered up at all times through a fusible link. The ingition merely tells it to go to work. 2 - Bad connection or bad Cam sensor and/or Crank sensor. I'm favoring the Crank sensor first. ECM's do go bad, but something stupid has to happen first. You got some very good advise in another post. Take it to the dealer who is most likely familiar with this problem ( It's happened before to someone else) who will diagnose it within 1/2 hr. Rememebr that most independant shops work on all (mostly) comers and have the least electrical clues. Pete Licenced auto mechanic (red seal) Licenced heavy equipment mechanic (red seal) Automotive instructor community college Yeah, I guess I should have just taken it to the dealer after the first shop. I already had it towed to the second shop, so might as well let them look at it. Plus, if it turns out to not be the PCM (ECM?), then it'll be cheaper to have them do than to have the dealer do it. But I'll definitely take it to the dealer if this guy can't figure it out on Monday/Tuesday. Per the message I just posted, the mechanic at the first shop insisted that he checked all the components, but that there's no power coming out of the PCM and can't get a reading from it. But he also said he was able to start it because "everything had cooled down enough." Don't see what that would have to do with the PCM. Neil >>My question is: is there anything else that might be causing the PCM to >>act [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Licenced heavy equipment mechanic (red seal) > Automotive instructor community college It can happen. My sebring did a similar thing would die and couldn';t start. when it was cold would start and then die when worm. so tested the car everywere and the relays would click but the car would not start. The ignition switch was fine. Ended up being the ECU. So basically you called the first shop idiots and liars, yet you don't even know the problem. You going to do that to the second shop too? Your situation is different than mine. First, I have no clicking at all. Second, my car won't start when it's cold, though it did do it that one time for the mechanic. But after sitting for over 4 hours, it wouldn't start again. As for calling them "idiots and liars," I don't recall calling them idiots. I do know that when I asked the mechanic why he was able to start it if it was the PCM, as he said, his reply was, "We got lucky. We just got lucky." That's not the most technical answer I've ever heard. As for calling them liars, that was in the context of saying that I owed them $89 for the diagnostic, but then charging me $96 when I came to pick up the car, citing a $7 shop fee. If there's a shop fee, then fine. But don't tell me that I owe you $89, and then charge me $96 when I show up. Neil > It can happen. My sebring did a similar thing would die and couldn';t > start. when it was cold would start and then die when worm. so tested the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- |
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