Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2007
Prius - eco-friendly, my a.s
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R.Hemmu - 07 Jun 2007 01:00 GMT The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
[A Prius] advertisement asked: "What if all cars were like the Prius? With its hybrid synergy drive technology, it emits up to one ton less CO2 per year." On-screen text stated: "1 ton of CO2 less than an equivalent family vehicle with a diesel engine. Average calculated on 20,000km a year. Toyota Prius: CO2 emissions: 104 grams per kilometer".
The ASA [Advertising Standards authority] agreed the Prius emitted "significantly less" CO2 than some other cars with greater engine capacity, but added that "we did not consider their evidence demonstrated that it emitted one ton less than equivalent vehicles with diesel engines or that it took into account the average annual distance driven by private cars in the UK".
Toyota said it had qualified the claim by saying the Prius's CO2 emissions were "up to" one ton less a year. The firm also provided the ASA with data comparing the Prius with other cars registered in 2005...
The average CO2 output for a UK car is 170-200 grams per kilometer, but hybrids can achieve 105 grams per kilometer. ========== That's "green"? The eco-bullshit being sprayed by Toyota and airhead celebrities like Cameron Diaz and Harrison Ford is becoming intolerable. Look, if you don't drive AT ALL, then you're a hell of lot greener than Prius owners.
gad - 07 Jun 2007 01:37 GMT > The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007 > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > intolerable. Look, if you don't drive AT ALL, then you're a hell of lot > greener than Prius owners. CO2 is one thing. One other reason to drive a fuel efficient car, hybrid or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the nuts in the Middle East.
Jeff - 07 Jun 2007 01:42 GMT >> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007 >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the nuts > in the Middle East. The biggest supplier of fuel to the US is Canada. Talk about nuts.
Jeff
gad - 07 Jun 2007 02:08 GMT >>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007 >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Jeff Lol!
80 Knight - 07 Jun 2007 04:56 GMT >>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007 >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > The biggest supplier of fuel to the US is Canada. Talk about nuts. And yet you still get gas cheaper then we Canadian's do. Oh, and go f.ck yourself too, a.shole.
C. E. White - 07 Jun 2007 12:34 GMT >> CO2 is one thing. One other reason to drive a fuel efficient car, >> hybrid or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of >> money to the nuts in the Middle East. > > The biggest supplier of fuel to the US is Canada. Talk about nuts. If the US imported less, even from Canada, the price would decrease, and the nuts in the middle east and Venezuela would get less money.
Ed
Mike Hunter - 07 Jun 2007 02:31 GMT If all of a sudden ALL vehicles in the country attained twice the mileage, the market would increase the price of fuel. Economics 101
The fact is, we use more gas today than we did before CAFE and more than when it cost $2 a gallon, or even $1 a gallon. ;)
mike
>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007 >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the > nuts in the Middle East. Jeff Strickland - 07 Jun 2007 02:44 GMT As a group we might use more, but as individuals it would be difficult to demonstrate that we use more.
I admit that I might use more than I did, but most of us are more likely to be using far less. So, our individual consumption (demand) has gone down, there are more of "us" making demands.
In a true Supply and Demand market place, the suppliers would make more under these conditions. They appear to have gone to pains to maintain the same production levels, or less, and therefore CREATE a short supply in the face of decreased individual demand.
> If all of a sudden ALL vehicles in the country attained twice the mileage, > the market would increase the price of fuel. Economics 101 [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the >> nuts in the Middle East. F.H. - 07 Jun 2007 03:22 GMT >> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007 >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the nuts > in the Middle East. Most of the Saudi money winds up back here in banks just in case there's a little revolution and the royal family gets the boot.
GO Mavs - 07 Jun 2007 03:27 GMT http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=4601 52&in_page_id=1770
Toyota's iconic Prius, the hybrid electric and petrol engine car, is not as green as the company claims, according to a damning independent assessment.
Advertising watchdogs say Toyota has been unable to back-up claims that drivers could save up to one ton of CO2 per year compared to an equivalent diesel car.
As a result, the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has banned the car giant from making the claim in future advertising.
The Prius has become the icon of the green motoring revolution, attracting celebrity customers from Cameron Diaz and Jane Fonda to Leonardo diCaprio and Harrison Ford.
And it was recently voted Britain's best-loved car, largely because it is perceived to be kinder to the environment.
However, the ASA has decided that the car is clearly not as green as Toyota has been suggesting in its advertising.
A voice-over in a TV ad boasted: "What if all cars were like the Prius, with its hybrid synergy drive technology, it emits up to one ton less CO2 per year."
This was backed up by on-screen text, which stated: "1 ton of CO2 less than an equivalent family vehicle with a diesel engine. Average calculated on 20,000km a year. Toyota Prius: CO2 emissions: 104g/km."
More....
a.. Sales of 'ecocars' have doubled as motorists shun gas guzzling models The ASA called in independent analysts who confirmed the Prius does emit less carbon than other similar cars.
However, it has concluded that Toyota has effectively manipulated the figures to exaggerate the CO2 saving.
The ASA said the claims made by the car giant looked more impressive because it had failed to compare the Prius with an equivalent vehicle.
The petrol engine in the Prius is relatively small at 1.5 litres. However, the company's claims of reduced carbon output were based on a comparison with the bigger engine on a 1.8 litre diesel car.
In fact, the CO2 saving was not as much as one ton when compared to cars with 1.5 litre engines. While fewer than half of new cars with a 1.8 litre engine emitted an extra one ton of CO2 per year.
Toyota also based its claims on drivers travelling 20,000 kilometres - 12,500 miles a year - which is the average for the USA.
The figure for the UK is a lower 13,440km - 8,350 miles - which means the total amount of carbon saved per year by British drivers of the Prius is likely to be less than claimed in the commercial.
Toyota defended its claims, arguing that while its car has a 1.5 litre engine, the power output is equivalent to more powerful cars. Consequently, the company insisted it was fair to compare its emissions with vehicles with a 1.8 litre engine.
The company also argued that the use of 20,000km - 12,500 miles - was "a reasonable average annual distance travelled by a car". None of this satisfied the ASA, which states in a judgement: "We did not consider their evidence demonstrated that it emitted one ton less than equivalent vehicles with diesel engines or that it took into account the average annual distance driven by private cars in the UK."
Consequently, it has banned the commercial because it was misleading and breached rules covering the use of environmental claims and comparisons.
This is not the first time that Toyota has been found to have exaggerated the green credentials of its vehicles.
Its luxury brand, Lexus, was recently censured by the ASA over bogus claims that motorists could drive its hybrid 4x4 with "low emissions, zero guilt."
The car, a favourite of Tory leader David Cameron and Sir Paul McCartney, may rely partially on electric engines, however it still emits more carbon than many other vehicles.
The ASA's decision on the Prius will dent its reputation, however it seems unlikely to make a meaningful impact on sales.
The UK's annual sales of hybrid "ecocars" has risen 111 per cent in the past year to 6,568.
Toyota has delivered 3,698 Prius saloons to customers so far this year but could have sold a lot more if the factory in Japan had been able to produce them.
Showrooms have reported exceptional demand for the car, which is priced from £17,780, especially in London, where there is a two-month waiting list.
Its popularity is helped by the fact it is exempt from the £8-a-day congestion charge.
Company spokesman, Scott Brownlee, said: "Demand is outstripping supply. Many parts of the world are seeing the same thing because supplies are restricted.
"Global Prius sales are up 70 per cent. The factory can't make them quick enough and we can't get as many as we could sell in the UK."
George Orwell - 07 Jun 2007 06:10 GMT In article <92K9i.503$6h.178@trnddc06> "GO Mavs"
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7007362797
GO Mavs - 07 Jun 2007 07:29 GMT > In article <92K9i.503$6h.178@trnddc06> > "GO Mavs" > > http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7007362797 Isnt that the truth... Talk about a team that went from 80 to 0 in 2 seconds.
C. E. White - 07 Jun 2007 16:05 GMT I find the Prius a fascinating exercise in engineering and marketing. Whether it is truly environmentally friendly or not over it's entire life cycle may be debated. What can't be debated is that it has achieved a level of appeal that is driving other manufacturers to compete.
I see things this way:
The Prius achieves very high mileage numbers in the EPA tests. It has a very aerodynamic shape. It has a very complicated drivetrain. Just how long will the batteries last? Despite good "numbers" for interior space, the car is actually pretty cramped - particularly the head room Rear vision is horrible.
So what conventional car is the best comparison to the Prius? I'd suggest the Honda Fit is the best non-hybrid comparison:
Interior Room Consumer Reports Prius: Seating Front-seat comfort - very good Front shoulder room, in.55.0 Front leg room, in.40.5 Front head room, in.4.0 Rear-seat comfort - very good Rear shoulder room, in.52.5 Rear fore-aft room, in.30.0 Rear head room, in.2.0 Trunk - Average Luggage Capacity 3+1 Fit: Seating Front-seat comfort - very good Front shoulder room, in.52.5 Front leg room, in.40.0 Front head room, in.5.5 Rear-seat comfort - very good Rear shoulder room, in.49.5 Rear fore-aft room, in.26.0 Rear head room, in.3.5 Trunk - Fair Luggage Capacity 2+2 EPA Index Prius: Passenger Volume 96 ft3 (HB) Luggage Volume 16 ft3 (HB) Fit: Passenger Volume 90 ft3 (HB) Luggage Volume 21 ft3 (HB) Fuel economy: EPA (new rating system) Prius - 48 city / 45 highway / 46 Combined Fit (manual)- 28 city / 34 highway / 31 Combined Fit (automatic)- 27 city / 35 highway / 30 Combined EPA Consumer Ratings Prius - 34 Min / 62 Max / 45.9 Average (based on 47 vehicles) Fit (manual)- 28 Min / 39 Max / 34.8 Average (based on 23 vehicles) Fit (automatic)- 21 Min / 43 Max / 31.7 Average (based on 17 vehicles) Consumer Reports Prius - 44 overall / 35 city / 50 highway / 48 trip Fit (manual) - 34 overall / 26 city / 39 highway / 40 trip Fit (automatic) - 32 overall / 22 city / 43 highway / 38 trip Acceleration Consumer Reports Prius - 0 to 30 - 3.7 / 0 to 60 - 10.5 / 1/4 Mile -18.1 @ 78 / 45 to 65 - 6.4 Fit (manual) - 0 to 30 - 3.2 / 0 to 60 - 9.9 / 1/4 Mile -17.4 @ 80 / 45 to 65 - 6.5 Fit (automatic) - 0 to 30 - 4.2 / 0 to 60 - 12.4 / 1/4 Mile -19.0 @ 75 / 45 to 65 - 8.4 Consumer Ratings: Cars.com: Prius 4.3 out of 5 (20 total - only 16 would recommend the car) Corolla - 4.7 out of 5 (7 total - all 7 would recommend the car) Fit - 4.9 out of 5 (18 total - all 18 would recommend the car) Consumers Reports: Prius - Excellent Fit - Excellent Edmunds.com Consumer: Prius - 9.3 Corolla - 9.0 Fit - 9.3 Cost MSRP Prius - $22,175 (Base) / $23,070 (Touring) Fit - $13,850 (Base) / $15,170 (Sport) Reliability and Quality Consumer Reports Prius - Much Better Than Average Fit - Much Better Than Average JD Power Consumer Ratings Initial Quality Prius: Overall Manufacturing Quality - 5 out of 5 Mechanical Manufacturing Quality - 4.5 out of 5 Body & Interior Manufacturing Quality - 5 out of 5 Feature & Accessory Manufacturing Quality 4.5 out of 5 Overall Design Quality - 3 out of 5 Mechanical Design Quality - 5 out of 5 Body & Interior Design Quality - 3.5 out of 5 Feature & Accessory Design Quality - 2.5 out of 5 Overall Appeal - 3 out of 5 Performance - 4 out of 5 Comfort - 2 out of 5 Feature and Instrument Panel - 3 out of 5 Style - 2 out of 5 Fit: Not Rated Yet Crash Test Results NHTSA Prius: Front Impact Driver - 4 Stars Front Impact Passenger - 4 Stars Side Impact Front - 5 Stars Side Impact Rear - 4 Stars Rollover Rating - 4 Stars Fit: Front Impact Driver - 5 Stars Front Impact Passenger - 5 Stars Side Impact Front - 5 Stars Side Impact Rear - 3 Stars Rollover Rating - 4 Stars
The net is:
Fit is much cheaper and has better safety ratings. Prius get much better fuel economy - even in the "real world," 8 to 10 mpg (depending on Fit transmission choice) Both appear to be well assembled and reliable but the Fit appears to have an edge here Consumer opinions appear to very slightly favor the Fit. In looking through the Edmunds ratings for the Prius, most owners were very happy, but there were also some very unhappy owners. The Prius got more 10's, but it also got enough bad rating to result in the average Edmunds Consumer Rating to be the same as the Fit. Apparently if you love the car, you really love it. I also thought it was interesting that only 16 of 20 Cars.com reviewers would recommend the car - that is pretty low, about the same as for the Chevy Aveo or Ford Focus and far behind the Fit, Corolla, or Ford Fusion.
In my opinion, the Prius is selling well based on the appearance of "greenness" and the advertised fuel economy. It doesn't hurt that Toyota is heavily promoting the car and offering significant incentives. However, if your real goal is to save money, the Prius is probably a bad choice. You can buy a Fit for at least $7.5k less. Even if you average 12 mpg better with the Prius, it will take you over 300,000 miles to save enough on gas to make up the cost difference, and that is not considering battery pack replacement, or any extra maintenance related to the hybrid drivetrain.
In my opinion - the Prius is the environmentalist/liberal equivalent of a sports car. Not really practical, but it gives you the right to brag. The reality is that at least when it comes to saving money (and probably the planet as well), it is a fraud - but an interesting and clever one.
I think I understand why Toyota is pushing them so heavily right now - they are worried that the market will become sated or that other technologies might prove to be more popular. If they can get enough hybrid vehicles out in the world quickly enough, they can drag the rest of the industry along in "follow the leader mode" and possibly forestall competition from other technologies. A devious but brilliant strategy.
Ed
Jeff DeWitt - 10 Jun 2007 17:19 GMT OK you raised some interesting points and I'm NOT a Prius fan or any kind of ecoweenie (I drive a Cherokee and a Studebaker Champ) but there are a couple of other things to consider.
The Prius IS a bigger car inside, that extra 6 cubic feet of interior room is quite a bit of room. Also, and perhaps more importantly isn't the Prius a higher level car than the Fit? I suspect the Fit's level of NVH is significantly higher than the Prius, and the Prius would probably be a much more comfortable and relaxing drive on a long trip.
Jeff DeWitt
> I find the Prius a fascinating exercise in engineering and marketing. > Whether it is truly environmentally friendly or not over it's entire [quoted text clipped - 170 lines] > > Ed C. E. White - 12 Jun 2007 13:39 GMT > OK you raised some interesting points and I'm NOT a Prius fan or any > kind of ecoweenie (I drive a Cherokee and a Studebaker Champ) but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jeff DeWitt I am not so sure the 6 extra cubic feet of room is meaningful. The Prius is wider, but not enough wider to make it a true 5 passenger car (although it is rated as one), so the extra width (and the volume it generates) is not particulalrly valuable. If you are moderately tall (like me), the lack of headroom in a Prius is a major negative.
CR rated the Prius slightly better for both ride quality and noise than the Fit. They rated seat comfort the same. I suppose if you were buying the car as a long trip vehicle, then the Prius would be better, except, if your primary use is long trips, is the Prius the car you would buy? - Particualrly if you consider the lack of luggage room in a Prius. I don't think of either car as primarily a long trip vehicle.
Regards,
Ed White
>> I find the Prius a fascinating exercise in engineering and >> marketing. Whether it is truly environmentally friendly or not over [quoted text clipped - 175 lines] >> >> Ed
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