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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2007

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Prius - eco-friendly, my a.s

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R.Hemmu - 07 Jun 2007 01:00 GMT
The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007

[A Prius] advertisement asked: "What if all cars were like the Prius?
With its hybrid synergy drive technology, it emits up to one ton less
CO2 per year." On-screen text stated: "1 ton of CO2 less than an
equivalent family vehicle with a diesel engine. Average calculated on
20,000km a year. Toyota Prius: CO2 emissions: 104 grams per kilometer".

The ASA [Advertising Standards authority] agreed the Prius emitted
"significantly less" CO2 than some other cars with greater engine
capacity, but added that "we did not consider their evidence
demonstrated that it emitted one ton less than equivalent vehicles with
diesel engines or that it took into account the average annual distance
driven by private cars in the UK".

Toyota said it had qualified the claim by saying the Prius's CO2
emissions were "up to" one ton less a year. The firm also provided the
ASA with data comparing the Prius with other cars registered in 2005...

The average CO2 output for a UK car is 170-200 grams per kilometer, but
hybrids can achieve 105 grams per kilometer.
==========
That's "green"? The eco-bullshit being sprayed by Toyota and airhead
celebrities like Cameron Diaz and Harrison Ford is becoming
intolerable. Look, if you don't drive AT ALL, then you're a hell of lot
greener than Prius owners.
gad - 07 Jun 2007 01:37 GMT
> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> intolerable. Look, if you don't drive AT ALL, then you're a hell of lot
> greener than Prius owners.

CO2 is one thing.  One other reason to drive a fuel efficient car, hybrid or
not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the nuts
in the Middle East.
Jeff - 07 Jun 2007 01:42 GMT
>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the nuts
> in the Middle East.

The biggest supplier of fuel to the US is Canada. Talk about nuts.

Jeff
gad - 07 Jun 2007 02:08 GMT
>>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Jeff

Lol!
80 Knight - 07 Jun 2007 04:56 GMT
>>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> The biggest supplier of fuel to the US is Canada. Talk about nuts.

And yet you still get gas cheaper then we Canadian's do. Oh, and go f.ck 
yourself too, a.shole.
C. E. White - 07 Jun 2007 12:34 GMT
>> CO2 is one thing.  One other reason to drive a fuel efficient car,
>> hybrid or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of
>> money to the nuts in the Middle East.
>
> The biggest supplier of fuel to the US is Canada. Talk about nuts.

If the US imported less, even from Canada, the price would decrease,
and the nuts in the middle east and Venezuela would get less money.

Ed
Mike Hunter - 07 Jun 2007 02:31 GMT
If all of a sudden ALL vehicles in the country attained twice the mileage,
the market would increase the price of fuel.  Economics 101

The fact is, we use more gas today than we did before CAFE and more than
when it cost $2 a gallon, or even $1 a gallon.   ;)

mike

>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the
> nuts in the Middle East.
Jeff Strickland - 07 Jun 2007 02:44 GMT
As a group we might use more, but as individuals it would be difficult to
demonstrate that we use more.

I admit that I might use more than I did, but most of us are more likely to
be using far less. So, our individual consumption (demand) has gone down,
there are more of "us" making demands.

In a true Supply and Demand market place, the suppliers would make more
under these conditions. They appear to have gone to pains to maintain the
same production levels, or less, and therefore CREATE a short supply in the
face of decreased individual demand.

> If all of a sudden ALL vehicles in the country attained twice the mileage,
> the market would increase the price of fuel.  Economics 101
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>> or not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the
>> nuts in the Middle East.
F.H. - 07 Jun 2007 03:22 GMT
>> The Guardian (London) - June 6, 2007
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> not, and drive less if possible, is to reduce the flow of money to the nuts
> in the Middle East.

Most of the Saudi money winds up back here in banks just in case there's
a little revolution and the royal family gets the boot.
GO Mavs - 07 Jun 2007 03:27 GMT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=4601
52&in_page_id=1770


Toyota's iconic Prius, the hybrid electric and petrol engine car, is not as
green as the company claims, according to a damning independent assessment.

Advertising watchdogs say Toyota has been unable to back-up claims that
drivers could save up to one ton of CO2 per year compared to an equivalent
diesel car.

As a result, the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has banned the car
giant from making the claim in future advertising.

The Prius has become the icon of the green motoring revolution, attracting
celebrity customers from Cameron Diaz and Jane Fonda to Leonardo diCaprio
and Harrison Ford.

And it was recently voted Britain's best-loved car, largely because it is
perceived to be kinder to the environment.

However, the ASA has decided that the car is clearly not as green as Toyota
has been suggesting in its advertising.

A voice-over in a TV ad boasted: "What if all cars were like the Prius, with
its hybrid synergy drive technology, it emits up to one ton less CO2 per
year."

This was backed up by on-screen text, which stated: "1 ton of CO2 less than
an equivalent family vehicle with a diesel engine. Average calculated on
20,000km a year. Toyota Prius: CO2 emissions: 104g/km."

More....

 a.. Sales of 'ecocars' have doubled as motorists shun gas guzzling models
The ASA called in independent analysts who confirmed the Prius does emit
less carbon than other similar cars.

However, it has concluded that Toyota has effectively manipulated the
figures to exaggerate the CO2 saving.

The ASA said the claims made by the car giant looked more impressive because
it had failed to compare the Prius with an equivalent vehicle.

The petrol engine in the Prius is relatively small at 1.5 litres. However,
the company's claims of reduced carbon output were based on a comparison
with the bigger engine on a 1.8 litre diesel car.

In fact, the CO2 saving was not as much as one ton when compared to cars
with 1.5 litre engines. While fewer than half of new cars with a 1.8 litre
engine emitted an extra one ton of CO2 per year.

Toyota also based its claims on drivers travelling 20,000 kilometres -
12,500 miles a year - which is the average for the USA.

The figure for the UK is a lower 13,440km - 8,350 miles - which means the
total amount of carbon saved per year by British drivers of the Prius is
likely to be less than claimed in the commercial.

Toyota defended its claims, arguing that while its car has a 1.5 litre
engine, the power output is equivalent to more powerful cars. Consequently,
the company insisted it was fair to compare its emissions with vehicles with
a 1.8 litre engine.

The company also argued that the use of 20,000km - 12,500 miles - was "a
reasonable average annual distance travelled by a car". None of this
satisfied the ASA, which states in a judgement: "We did not consider their
evidence demonstrated that it emitted one ton less than equivalent vehicles
with diesel engines or that it took into account the average annual distance
driven by private cars in the UK."

Consequently, it has banned the commercial because it was misleading and
breached rules covering the use of environmental claims and comparisons.

This is not the first time that Toyota has been found to have exaggerated
the green credentials of its vehicles.

Its luxury brand, Lexus, was recently censured by the ASA over bogus claims
that motorists could drive its hybrid 4x4 with "low emissions, zero guilt."

The car, a favourite of Tory leader David Cameron and Sir Paul McCartney,
may rely partially on electric engines, however it still emits more carbon
than many other vehicles.

The ASA's decision on the Prius will dent its reputation, however it seems
unlikely to make a meaningful impact on sales.

The UK's annual sales of hybrid "ecocars" has risen 111 per cent in the past
year to 6,568.

Toyota has delivered 3,698 Prius saloons to customers so far this year but
could have sold a lot more if the factory in Japan had been able to produce
them.

Showrooms have reported exceptional demand for the car, which is priced from
£17,780, especially in London, where there is a two-month waiting list.

Its popularity is helped by the fact it is exempt from the £8-a-day
congestion charge.

Company spokesman, Scott Brownlee, said: "Demand is outstripping supply.
Many parts of the world are seeing the same thing because supplies are
restricted.

"Global Prius sales are up 70 per cent. The factory can't make them quick
enough and we can't get as many as we could sell in the UK."
George Orwell - 07 Jun 2007 06:10 GMT
In article <92K9i.503$6h.178@trnddc06>
"GO Mavs"

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7007362797
GO Mavs - 07 Jun 2007 07:29 GMT
> In article <92K9i.503$6h.178@trnddc06>
> "GO Mavs"
>
> http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7007362797

Isnt that the truth... Talk about a team that went from 80 to 0 in 2
seconds.
C. E. White - 07 Jun 2007 16:05 GMT
I find the Prius a fascinating exercise in engineering and marketing.
Whether it is truly environmentally friendly or not over it's entire
life cycle may be debated. What can't be debated is that it has
achieved a level of appeal that is driving other manufacturers to
compete.

I see things this way:

The Prius achieves very high mileage numbers in the EPA tests.
It has a very aerodynamic shape.
It has a very complicated drivetrain.
Just how long will the batteries last?
Despite good "numbers" for interior space, the car is actually pretty
cramped - particularly the head room
Rear vision is horrible.

So what conventional car is the best comparison to the Prius? I'd
suggest the Honda Fit is the best non-hybrid comparison:

Interior Room
   Consumer Reports
       Prius:
           Seating
               Front-seat comfort - very good
               Front shoulder room, in.55.0
               Front leg room, in.40.5
               Front head room, in.4.0
               Rear-seat comfort - very good
               Rear shoulder room, in.52.5
               Rear fore-aft room, in.30.0
               Rear head room, in.2.0
               Trunk - Average
               Luggage Capacity 3+1
       Fit:
           Seating
               Front-seat comfort - very good
               Front shoulder room, in.52.5
               Front leg room, in.40.0
               Front head room, in.5.5
               Rear-seat comfort - very good
               Rear shoulder room, in.49.5
               Rear fore-aft room, in.26.0
               Rear head room, in.3.5
               Trunk - Fair
               Luggage Capacity 2+2
   EPA Index
       Prius:
           Passenger Volume 96 ft3 (HB)
           Luggage Volume 16 ft3 (HB)
       Fit:
           Passenger Volume 90 ft3 (HB)
           Luggage Volume 21 ft3 (HB)
Fuel economy:
   EPA (new rating system)
       Prius - 48 city / 45 highway / 46 Combined
       Fit (manual)- 28 city / 34 highway / 31 Combined
       Fit (automatic)- 27 city / 35 highway / 30 Combined
   EPA Consumer Ratings
       Prius - 34 Min / 62 Max / 45.9 Average (based on 47 vehicles)
       Fit (manual)- 28 Min / 39 Max / 34.8 Average  (based on 23
vehicles)
       Fit (automatic)- 21 Min / 43 Max / 31.7 Average  (based on 17
vehicles)
   Consumer Reports
       Prius - 44 overall / 35 city / 50 highway / 48 trip
       Fit (manual) - 34 overall / 26 city / 39 highway / 40 trip
       Fit (automatic) - 32 overall / 22 city / 43 highway / 38 trip
Acceleration
   Consumer Reports
       Prius - 0 to 30 - 3.7 / 0 to 60 - 10.5 / 1/4 Mile -18.1 @ 78 /
45 to 65 - 6.4
       Fit (manual) - 0 to 30 - 3.2 / 0 to 60 - 9.9 / 1/4 Mile -17.4
@ 80 / 45 to 65 - 6.5
       Fit (automatic) - 0 to 30 - 4.2 / 0 to 60 - 12.4 / 1/4
Mile -19.0 @ 75 / 45 to 65 - 8.4
Consumer Ratings:
   Cars.com:
       Prius 4.3 out of 5 (20 total - only 16 would recommend the
car)
       Corolla - 4.7 out of 5 (7 total - all 7 would recommend the
car)
       Fit - 4.9 out of 5 (18 total - all 18 would recommend the car)
   Consumers Reports:
       Prius - Excellent
       Fit - Excellent
   Edmunds.com
       Consumer:
           Prius - 9.3
           Corolla - 9.0
           Fit - 9.3
Cost
   MSRP
       Prius - $22,175 (Base) / $23,070 (Touring)
       Fit - $13,850 (Base) / $15,170 (Sport)
Reliability and Quality
   Consumer Reports
       Prius - Much Better Than Average
       Fit - Much Better Than Average
   JD Power Consumer Ratings
       Initial Quality
           Prius:
               Overall Manufacturing Quality - 5 out of 5
               Mechanical Manufacturing Quality - 4.5 out of 5
               Body & Interior Manufacturing Quality - 5 out of 5
               Feature & Accessory Manufacturing Quality  4.5 out of
5
               Overall Design Quality - 3 out of 5
               Mechanical Design Quality - 5 out of 5
               Body & Interior Design Quality - 3.5 out of 5
               Feature & Accessory Design Quality - 2.5 out of 5
               Overall Appeal - 3 out of 5
               Performance -  4 out of 5
               Comfort - 2 out of 5
               Feature and Instrument Panel - 3 out of 5
               Style - 2 out of 5
           Fit:
              Not Rated Yet
Crash Test Results
   NHTSA
       Prius:
           Front Impact Driver - 4 Stars
           Front Impact Passenger - 4 Stars
           Side Impact Front - 5 Stars
           Side Impact Rear - 4 Stars
           Rollover Rating - 4 Stars
       Fit:
           Front Impact Driver - 5 Stars
           Front Impact Passenger - 5 Stars
           Side Impact Front - 5 Stars
           Side Impact Rear - 3 Stars
           Rollover Rating - 4 Stars

The net is:

Fit is much cheaper and has better safety ratings.
Prius get much better fuel economy - even in the "real world," 8 to 10
mpg (depending on Fit transmission choice)
Both appear to be well assembled and reliable but the Fit appears to
have an edge here
Consumer opinions appear to very slightly favor the Fit. In looking
through the Edmunds ratings for the Prius, most owners were very
happy, but there were also some very unhappy owners. The Prius got
more 10's, but it also got enough bad rating to result in the average
Edmunds Consumer Rating to be the same as the Fit. Apparently if you
love the car, you really love it. I also thought it was interesting
that only 16 of 20 Cars.com reviewers would recommend the car - that
is pretty low, about the same as for the Chevy Aveo or Ford Focus and
far behind the Fit, Corolla, or Ford Fusion.

In my opinion, the Prius is selling well based on the appearance of
"greenness" and the advertised fuel economy. It doesn't hurt that
Toyota is heavily promoting the car and offering significant
incentives. However, if your real goal is to save money, the Prius is
probably a bad choice. You can buy a Fit for at least $7.5k less. Even
if you average 12 mpg better with the Prius, it will take you over
300,000 miles to save enough on gas to make up the cost difference,
and that is not considering battery pack replacement, or any extra
maintenance related to the hybrid drivetrain.

In my opinion - the Prius is the environmentalist/liberal equivalent
of a sports car. Not really practical, but it gives you the right to
brag. The reality is that at least when it comes to saving money (and
probably the planet as well), it is a fraud - but an interesting and
clever one.

I think I understand why Toyota is pushing them so heavily right now -
they are worried that the market will become sated or that other
technologies might prove to be more popular. If they can get enough
hybrid vehicles out in the world quickly enough, they can drag the
rest of the industry along in "follow the leader mode" and possibly
forestall competition from other technologies. A devious but brilliant
strategy.

Ed
Jeff DeWitt - 10 Jun 2007 17:19 GMT
OK you raised some interesting points and I'm NOT a Prius fan or any
kind of ecoweenie (I drive a Cherokee and a Studebaker Champ) but there
are a couple of other things to consider.

The Prius IS a bigger car inside, that extra 6 cubic feet of interior
room is quite a bit of room.  Also, and perhaps more importantly isn't
the Prius a higher level car than the Fit?  I suspect the Fit's level of
NVH is significantly higher than the Prius, and the Prius would probably
be a much more comfortable and relaxing drive on a long trip.

Jeff DeWitt

> I find the Prius a fascinating exercise in engineering and marketing.
> Whether it is truly environmentally friendly or not over it's entire
[quoted text clipped - 170 lines]
>
> Ed
C. E. White - 12 Jun 2007 13:39 GMT
> OK you raised some interesting points and I'm NOT a Prius fan or any
> kind of ecoweenie (I drive a Cherokee and a Studebaker Champ) but
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Jeff DeWitt

I am not so sure the 6 extra cubic feet of room is meaningful. The
Prius is wider, but not enough wider to make it a true 5 passenger car
(although it is rated as one), so the extra width (and the volume it
generates) is not particulalrly valuable. If you are moderately tall
(like me), the lack of headroom in a Prius is a major negative.

CR rated the Prius slightly better for both ride quality and noise
than the Fit. They rated seat comfort the same. I suppose if you were
buying the car as a long trip vehicle, then the Prius would be better,
except, if your primary use is long trips, is the Prius the car you
would buy? - Particualrly if you consider the lack of luggage room in
a Prius. I don't think of either car as primarily a long trip vehicle.

Regards,

Ed White

>> I find the Prius a fascinating exercise in engineering and
>> marketing. Whether it is truly environmentally friendly or not over
[quoted text clipped - 175 lines]
>>
>> Ed

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