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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / October 2007AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem?
AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem? Or rather... what IS the problem? Here is the scenario. If the car is parked, turning on the AC does nothing but blow what seems to be outside air, temperature wise. If you leave the AC on and take off, it immediately turns cold. The heat does the exact same thing. You can turn it on while idling or parked and it blows roughly coldish air (because it was cooler at night when we tested the heat). As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly warms up. What in the world is going on?  Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am > kidding. No I am not. It is normally helpful to specify the make, model, and year of the vehicle. However, your problem seems fairly common: You have a vacuum leak, probably in the engine's vacuum reservoir or its one-way valve, or in one or more of the vacuum motors that operate the doors (valves) in the heater/AC box, or in the plumbing leading to it. When you press the gas, engine vacuum drops dramatically, so whatever depends on the presence of vacuum...such as the position of the doors and valves in the heater/AC box...goes haywire. Response from webpa <webpa@aol.com>: >> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem? >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > as the position of the doors and valves in the heater/AC > box...goes haywire. Oops, sorry! I always forget something fundamental. It is a 1998 Ford Windstar. Thanks for the prompt response! Do you perhaps know how big of a job this is? And approximately how much it should cost? Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response from webpa <webpa@aol.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Do you perhaps know how big of a job this is? And approximately how > much it should cost? Sounds like you have a problem with the "blend" door. The blend door problem is well known. Do a google search for 1998 Windstar blend door problem or some variant. You will get a large number of hits. Your problem is probably related to the door actuator lever. A real pain to fix. Response from "DodgeDriver" <wingnut@invalid.net>: >> Response from webpa <webpa@aol.com>: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> >> >> Or rather... what IS the problem? <snip> > Sounds like you have a problem with the "blend" door. The blend > door > problem is well known. Do a google search for 1998 Windstar blend > door problem or some variant. You will get a large number of > hits. Your problem is probably related to the door actuator > lever. A real pain to fix. OK, thanks. Will check that out too. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. Response from "DodgeDriver" <wingnut@invalid.net>: > Sounds like you have a problem with the "blend" door. The blend > door problem is well known. Do a google search for 1998 Windstar > blend door problem or some variant. You will get a large number > of hits. Your problem is probably related to the door actuator > lever. A real pain to fix. Oops, I forgot to ask... you said it is a pain to fix. Does that mean 1 to 2 people can get it done, it is just a pain in the rear to do it? Or it is not possible unless you have several people helping or certified mechanics? We are fairly competent in regards to repairs, but we are NOT mechanics. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response from "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net>: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > We are fairly competent in regards to repairs, but we are NOT > mechanics. A blend door repair is not easy. If you attempt it yourself, I'll bet you will soon understand why good *technicians* make 6 figures. A 'mechanic' replaces the oxygen sensors and says "sure hope that fixes it". A technician performs tests and fixes the root problem the first time. Mechanics are a dime a dozen. Technicians are expensive, but cheaper in the long run. But I digress.... Ben Response from "benteaches@gmail.com" <benteaches@gmail.com>: >> Response from "DodgeDriver" <wing...@invalid.net>: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If you attempt it yourself, I'll bet you will soon understand why > good *technicians* make 6 figures. I don't doubt it in the least... > A 'mechanic' replaces the oxygen sensors and says "sure hope that > fixes it". A technician performs tests and fixes the root problem > the first time. Mechanics are a dime a dozen. Technicians are > expensive, but cheaper in the long run. > But I digress.... What exactly discerns a mechanic from a certified technician? For example, does the ASE mean they are (somewhat) competent technicians? Or am I way off base. The spouse and I have thought about taking the ASE course but I believe the last time we checked it was only 8 weeks long or so, so surely that would not certify us a (great) technician. Thanks for the information, Ben. P.S. I checked ASE.com, ASECert.com, and NATEF and that was the general idea I got. That the ASE pretty much made you a technician. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response from "benteaches@gmail.com" <benteaches@gmail.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > P.S. I checked ASE.com, ASECert.com, and NATEF and that was the > general idea I got. That the ASE pretty much made you a technician. Yes, an ASE certified mechanic should know what he is doing and generally should be considered to be more expert than someone without that certification (and will probably make more money). But there are ASE certified crooks... Jeff DeWitt > > Thanks for the information, Ben. > > > P.S. I checked ASE.com, ASECert.com, and NATEF and that was the > > general idea I got. That the ASE pretty much made you a technician. A good Tech is self made, a professional with ethics > Yes, an ASE certified mechanic should know what he is doing and > generally should be considered to be more expert than someone without [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jeff DeWitt Indeed there are. This industry has a bunch of crooks (like many other industries), which is really sad, because there are several hundred thousand hard working techs out there who pay the price in public respect and opinion for the rest of the immoral and crooked mechanics. Just because a guy has ASE patches doesn't make him instantly competent, but it's the only yardstick a consumer has. That's why I tell people to ask friends, contact ASA, AAA, BBB etc. to chose a shop, dont use coupons, be prepared to pay a premium price to get premium service, and don't hesitate to get a 2nd opinion from another good shop prior to expensive repairs. But I digress again... Th >>> Thanks for the information, Ben. >>> P.S. I checked ASE.com, ASECert.com, and NATEF and that was the [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > But I digress again... > Th Of course. An ASE patch means a mechanic has passed some tests, it doesn't mean he is honest or even particularly competent at anything except passing tests. I know a guy who bought a Studebaker Lark after the previous owner had spent thousands of dollars having the thing worked on by a ASE certified mechanic, most of the work was not only done badly much of it was downright dangerous. Studebakers are not complicated, and an honest, qualified mechanic should have no problem working on one, although he might have to dig a bit to get data, but there is no reason to leave suspension parts loose or put brakes together wrong! Jeff DeWitt Response from "-Lost" <maventheextrawords@techie.com>: > AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > What in the world is going on? A quick update about what the dealer's mechanic has said: This problem is related to the: heater core (they are uncertain if this is the culprit) blower motor (which they have already replaced without our consent) They said they had to take apart the dash to get at the problem because "it was not blowing correctly." When in fact it WAS blowing correctly or at least forcefully, it was not however maintaining the temperatures it was supposed to. So my next question... are we being bamboozled? The entire (quickie) version. The car was purchased used with a small warranty plan. So we took it in to have the O2 sensors replaced which were causing the check engine light to come on and poor fuel consumption. We asked them to "troubleshoot" the problem with the heater and AC and after a day or two of calling about the problem they finally tell us that the day before the car was taken apart and new parts put into it. The manager claims this was "to help us save money" because the owner of the vehicle said "I do not have the money for repairs right now, so can you just give me a free estimate?" The owner was told that "it was not going to cost you anything to see what was wrong with it." So basically instead of calling us or the owner directly when the car WAS apart, the manager instead opted to OK the repair on his own and subsequently plans to refinance it into the existing loan. There was NO service agreement made or signed so this seems highly illegal to me. Any ideas on that? I told the owner that it was standard practice that a "free estimate" would cost you labor if the car was torn apart or if "the machine" was used to troubleshoot the system. The owner however assures me that it was explicitly asked and then stated that it would be NO cost whatsoever so the owner assumed nothing was being taken apart. So do the parts I mentioned sound like they should have been part of the problem? Does it sound like the owner is being done dirty? Thanks for all of your help people! P.S. "The owner" is my spouse, but I like to refer to them as "the owner" because they decided to make this purchase without my help and have been regretting not being more aware of their situation since the purchase. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. O >As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly warms up. > >What in the world is going on? My first best guess is that belts are slipping and or loose. Low idle speed is also suspect. As for the second post with the seller's story. DOCUMENT everything. Who said what, where, when (times, dates, places) and what was done or allegedly done. Find a reputable shop to check what was done or allegedly done and have them document it. Go back to the seller and show them the facts of the situation and ask them if they are willing to make it right. (Ask - don't yell or make threats) DOCUMENT all conversations. Then you may be off to small claims court. I just went through simular bullshit with a friends car who bought from another 'good' friend. That story was so full of holes, I couldn't help be suspicious. The car was reinspected and found wanting (Gov mandated safety inspection). 10 days ago we won a judgment in court. DOCUMENTATION is key and you have to go through all the hoops before you go to court. Good luck and keep posting any results. Pete Licenced Automotive mechanic Licenced Heavy Equipment mechanic Community College instructor (ret) Response from cselby@mts.net: > O >>As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > DOCUMENTATION is key and you have to go through all the hoops > before you go to court. Good luck and keep posting any results. Definitely will do! Thanks! One more quick question... considering we are current on payments for the vehicle and whatnot, do you know if we have the legal right to leave with our car if they try to prevent us from having it if we refuse to pay for the stuff they have done to it? Also... they never called back today and ignored (presumably) the 3 phone calls we placed to find out what was going on. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. On >One more quick question... considering we are current on payments for >the vehicle and whatnot, do you know if we have the legal right to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Also... they never called back today and ignored (presumably) the 3 >phone calls we placed to find out what was going on. This is where a lawyer comes in. Most have a free 15 min consult to see if you might have a case and your posible recourse. Pete Response from cselby@mts.net: >>One more quick question... considering we are current on payments >>for the vehicle and whatnot, do you know if we have the legal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > This is where a lawyer comes in. Most have a free 15 min consult > to see if you might have a case and your posible recourse. Thanks, Pete. We did in fact contact a lawyer today and immediately went to pick up our car. Here is what was done, what our bill is, and what the mechanic had to say: 1. "We blowed the heater core twice." Whatever the hell that was supposed to mean. Are they telling me that they put 2 heater cores in and they both failed immediately? Then he tells me most likely the dash has to come apart to replace the heater core. Um... 2. "We replaced the air filter, it was dirty as hell." Cool. But we did not authorize that. 3. "We refilled it with anti-freeze, cause it was a mite low." OK, but we did not authorize that either. 4. "We replaced the O2 sensors free of charge." That's great considering it was part of our warranty plan. 5. "We replaced the A/C switch on the blower motor." I asked if they meant the "blower motor switch" and they assured me no, they meant the "A/C blower switch." I have little clue so did not debate it. 6. "Oh, and the check engine light was not caused by the O2 sensors. For that we had to replace the IMRC motor which controls a flap on the intake." The only IMRC-anything I know of is the IMRC actuator and only know that it is connected directly to the intake manifold. Does that have anything to do with the heater? No clue. Also I asked, "Didn't you guys say that it was the O2 sensors that caused the check engine light to come on?" They said, "Yeah, but we were guessing." So I asked, "How come you couldn't guess on the rest of the stuff about the heater and A/C and let us know what was involved?" They said, "Because you cannot give a free estimate on something like that. You have to actually rip it apart and see what's going on." I said, "Then why didn't you or Brian (the manager of the car dealership) contact us to let us know your intentions?" Their response, "Brian OK'd the work. He told us to go ahead with everything. Look now... Brian is a good guy, he was trying to help ya'll." At that point I had heard what I wanted to and told them thanks, I was done. They asked if the owner wanted to continue to take apart the dash and replace the heater core claiming that it would be AT LEAST another $650 to do so. I was not buying that (literally). They called Tammy (Brian's assistant manager) and she told us that they would not be willing to refinance the cost into the loan if we did not allow the mechanics to finish. I told her that I had 3 things to say: 1. We are not going to be held responsible for work you and or Brian OK'd without our consent, therefore until we talk to Brian we CANNOT say OK to more repairs. Brian was now out of town. Hell of a manager to say he was going to keep a customer informed and then leave the same afternoon on a "business trip" that would leave him gone for the rest of the week. 2. The mechanics have already informed us that the $541.32 worth of work they have completed thus far HAS NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM (which we verified moments after driving it). 3. For you to say to the owner that if we leave with the vehicle now you will not be willing to finance further repairs into the loan tells me that you are trying to "scare" us into leaving the vehicle behind for more repairs. Mix that with Brian giving the OK for unauthorized work AND the fact that the mechanics have NO CLUE what the problem is tells me there is a serious problem and until we talk to Brian we are not signing anything nor agreeing to more repairs. Tammy told the mechanics to let us have our car and she would inform Brian of what has occurred. Now seriously... the heater and A/C do the EXACT same thing as before it got sent there. Turn it on whilst idling and it does NOTHING until you hit the gas. It also seemed REALLY strange to me that we show up unannounced aside from calling Tammy while we were on the road and busting an immediate U-turn when she told us the location of the vehicle, that the car was FULLY intact. Nothing was taken apart. The only things we noticed is all the contents of the inside of the van were removed. As in, our dog food, cat food, bags and bags of children's clothing we had at the flea market last weekend, a box of VHS's we were hocking, diapers, and a box of books. Oh, and the middle seat of the vehicle (a van). Why did this stuff have to be removed? Beats the hell out of me. Also, I now know why they were so secretive about where they took our car. We told them that we had dog food and cat food in the vehicle, which we did, so they reluctantly told us where the car was -- a backwoods mechanic located about 14 miles south of us. No big deal there, except they had us drive the vehicle 9 miles north to the dealership only to then drive it almost 24 miles back? Of which they had also planned on driving it BACK to the dealership for us to make pickup and sign more papers stating that we would incur the total cost. Dirty rotten bastards... So, thanks for your time and patience. And if you or anyone has any further opinions, ideas, or words of wisdom, feel free to lay them on me. I am a grateful listener. Thanks! Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. >Thanks, Pete. We did in fact contact a lawyer today and immediately >went to pick up our car. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >in and they both failed immediately? Then he tells me most likely >the dash has to come apart to replace the heater core. Um... Likely means they diconnected the heater hoses and 'flushed' the core out. Look for the heater hose clamps at the firewall and see if they have been disturbed. >2. "We replaced the air filter, it was dirty as hell." Cool. But >we did not authorize that. Filter is a nice touch but I have to ask what that has to do with the current issue. Check to see if you have a new filter. >3. "We refilled it with anti-freeze, cause it was a mite low." OK, >but we did not authorize that either. Also a nice touch but irrelevant unless some was lost in the 'flush' process. >4. "We replaced the O2 sensors free of charge." That's great >considering it was part of our warranty plan. O2 sensor is another so what? except they can turn the 'engine lite' on. >5. "We replaced the A/C switch on the blower motor." I asked if >they meant the "blower motor switch" and they assured me no, they >meant the "A/C blower switch." I have little clue so did not debate >it. There is a separate switch that activates the AC circuitry and it may be part of the blower switch. I am not aware of an Ac switch on the blower motor. This doen't sound right. >6. "Oh, and the check engine light was not caused by the O2 sensors. >For that we had to replace the IMRC motor which controls a flap on >the intake." The only IMRC-anything I know of is the IMRC actuator >and only know that it is connected directly to the intake manifold. >Does that have anything to do with the heater? No clue. Idle speed control motor (solenoid). This thing comes under a bunch of different names and does control the idle speed. Take the vehicle to another shop and ask a real mechanic to point it out to you and see if it's 'new'. >Also I asked, "Didn't you guys say that it was the O2 sensors that >caused the check engine light to come on?" They said, "Yeah, but we >were guessing." They should have pulled trouble codes out before replacing anything, and calling you to OK the costs involved for the parts and labor. >So I asked, "How come you couldn't guess on the rest of the stuff >about the heater and A/C and let us know what was involved?" They >said, "Because you cannot give a free estimate on something like >that. You have to actually rip it apart and see what's going on." I somewhat agree. Locating a goofy problem is difficult, especially when you lack the experience to know what to look for. An authorized dealer mechanic would have known where to look. >I said, "Then why didn't you or Brian (the manager of the car >dealership) contact us to let us know your intentions?" Their >response, "Brian OK'd the work. He told us to go ahead with >everything. Look now... Brian is a good guy, he was trying to help >ya'll." At that point I had heard what I wanted to and told them >thanks, I was done. How can this guy be a nice guy and make money selling vehicles? >They asked if the owner wanted to continue to take apart the dash and >replace the heater core claiming that it would be AT LEAST another >$650 to do so. I was not buying that (literally). Heater core is not your problem. 650$ seems rather excessive. In an other post someone indicated a possible vacuum leak. Go with that and the belts slipping and the idle speed too low before spending any big bucks. >They called Tammy (Brian's assistant manager) and she told us that >they would not be willing to refinance the cost into the loan if we >did not allow the mechanics to finish. Here is where you DOCUMENT everything to date and get a second opinion from an authorized dealer shop in writing. Pay attention to whether new parts were installed. >I told her that I had 3 things to say: > >1. We are not going to be held responsible for work you and or Brian >OK'd without our consent, therefore until we talk to Brian we CANNOT >say OK to more repairs. Stick with this story. >Brian was now out of town. Hell of a manager to say he was going to >keep a customer informed and then leave the same afternoon on a >"business trip" that would leave him gone for the rest of the week. Sound more like Brian screwed up and is in hiding. You likely have interesting questions that he would have difficulty answering. >2. The mechanics have already informed us that the $541.32 worth of >work they have completed thus far HAS NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM (which we >verified moments after driving it). 541$ for a heater core flush, some Afreeze, an airfilter and an Idle speed motor, but the O2 sensor is free???? That Idle speed motor should have been covered by the warranty like the O2 sensor. 541$ for the rest is bullshit. >3. For you to say to the owner that if we leave with the vehicle now >you will not be willing to finance further repairs into the loan >tells me that you are trying to "scare" us into leaving the vehicle >behind for more repairs. Something is wrong with this picture and why would you want to finance repair costs with the guy who sold the vehicle? Sounds like a built in money factory. >Mix that with Brian giving the OK for unauthorized work AND the fact >that the mechanics have NO CLUE what the problem is tells me there is >a serious problem and until we talk to Brian we are not signing >anything nor agreeing to more repairs. Good plan. And do not take the vehicle back there until this whole matter is sorted out. And maybe not after that either. >Tammy told the mechanics to let us have our car and she would inform >Brian of what has occurred. Smart move on her part. Now wait and see if the 'warranties' are voided because you took the vehicle with out those 'needed' repairs. DOCUMENT everything. >Now seriously... the heater and A/C do the EXACT same thing as before >it got sent there. Turn it on whilst idling and it does NOTHING [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Dirty rotten bastards... OK first rule of business is - when money changes hands, you have no friends. You cannot say nice guy and used car salesman in the same sentence. Don't know if your area requires a Certificate of Safety. But if the heater blows cold at idle, how did that pass? Take a hard look at all the items they claimed to have fixed/replaced. While they may have been, this sounds way too fishy. DOCUMENT everything because this ain't over yet. And take this to a real shop with real mechanics for asecond look. What ever that costs will be a damn sight cheaper than the route your now on. Pete Response from cselby@mts.net: >>Thanks, Pete. We did in fact contact a lawyer today and >>immediately went to pick up our car. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > core out. Look for the heater hose clamps at the firewall and see > if they have been disturbed. As far as I can tell nothing has been disturbed. Unless of course when they put it back on they covered it in a very realistic dust/dirt grime solution. Seriously... I cannot even detect finger prints. >>2. "We replaced the air filter, it was dirty as hell." Cool. >>But we did not authorize that. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > O2 sensor is another so what? except they can turn the 'engine > lite' on. I figured that all three of these had something to do with "Ricky" telling me that they had to guess at some things. >>5. "We replaced the A/C switch on the blower motor." I asked if >>they meant the "blower motor switch" and they assured me no, they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > may be part of the blower switch. I am not aware of an Ac switch > on the blower motor. This doen't sound right. See, that's what I thought, but was not completely sure. I think about it now and it was SO funny to see Ricky (and Corey, apparently a junior mechanic) constantly glance down at the owner as they feverishly jotted everything down that was said. It reminded me of a crime drama where a rat was now extremely nervous over having snitched on Fat Tony (or some other mobster name) and was regretting every word that came out of their mouth and landed on paper. >>6. "Oh, and the check engine light was not caused by the O2 >>sensors. For that we had to replace the IMRC motor which controls [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the vehicle to another shop and ask a real mechanic to point it > out to you and see if it's 'new'. Gotcha. I am going to ask a Swope dealership and a mechanic that I know personally to have a once over and see if they can point out the "new" stuff to me. >>Also I asked, "Didn't you guys say that it was the O2 sensors that >>caused the check engine light to come on?" They said, "Yeah, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anything, and calling you to OK the costs involved for the parts > and labor. That is what I thought they originally did! I asked the owner about that part and they ASSURED me that Brian and the mechanic, Ricky, CHECKED to see what it was and that it was the O2 sensors causing the check engine light. So I wondered... what the hell does, "We checked... and it's the O2 sensors." mean? >>So I asked, "How come you couldn't guess on the rest of the stuff >>about the heater and A/C and let us know what was involved?" They [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > especially when you lack the experience to know what to look for. > An authorized dealer mechanic would have known where to look. I knew that, but of course did not know WHAT constituted a goofy problem. Luckily I have you smart gentlemen to help. : ) >>I said, "Then why didn't you or Brian (the manager of the car >>dealership) contact us to let us know your intentions?" Their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How can this guy be a nice guy and make money selling vehicles? I thought the SAME thing. The owner of the vehicle was so hell bent (literally, we argued about it) on the fact that Brian was supposedly "helping" them. I said, "How exactly does that man making money off of you make you think he's your friend?" It was so kooky, but eventually the owner got the hint. Especially after yesterday's events. >>They asked if the owner wanted to continue to take apart the dash >>and replace the heater core claiming that it would be AT LEAST [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with that and the belts slipping and the idle speed too low before > spending any big bucks. Gotcha. >>They called Tammy (Brian's assistant manager) and she told us that >>they would not be willing to refinance the cost into the loan if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > opinion from an authorized dealer shop in writing. Pay attention > to whether new parts were installed. OK, I am adding that to the list of things to ask from the dealership and the mechanic I know. >>I told her that I had 3 things to say: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Stick with this story. Yes sir! >>Brian was now out of town. Hell of a manager to say he was going >>to keep a customer informed and then leave the same afternoon on a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have interesting questions that he would have difficulty > answering. That is EXACTLY what I said to the owner. I also said we should take it while we have the chance because I figured if Brian was around he would have asked us if we planned on paying or whatnot and had we said that we have been advised not to, he would have most likely said well, then you can leave your vehicle there. Which was not going to happen... >>2. The mechanics have already informed us that the $541.32 worth >>of work they have completed thus far HAS NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > motor should have been covered by the warranty like the O2 sensor. > 541$ for the rest is bullshit. This is why I had already had plans to ask about everything at other places. Just a quick run of things told me that we should have had in the vicinity of $100 worth of stuff done. And that is counting if they expected us to pay for the unauthorized coolant and filter. But I almost lost it when they announced the almost $600 bill and THEN SAID, "It's pretty much doing the same thing as it was before. You let it idle and it just blows how it wants to. Give it some gas though and boy you got some of the hottest heat and some of the coldest air." Our cell phones had bad reception where we were so I radioed the owner telling them to pull over. We pulled off in a parking lot and both tried to speak at once. I let them go first and it was the exact same thing I was going to say... "Is it just me or did those mechanics just tell us that they charged us almost $600 but have not done anything to fix it?" "Yep." >>3. For you to say to the owner that if we leave with the vehicle >>now you will not be willing to finance further repairs into the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > finance repair costs with the guy who sold the vehicle? Sounds > like a built in money factory. The owner thought it might be wise to refinance it through them to cut down on some of our out of pocket expenses. We have a large family trip coming up with tons of expenses, so they thought it would help there. Having known what I know now though, I would have not taken the vehicle in at all. >>Mix that with Brian giving the OK for unauthorized work AND the >>fact that the mechanics have NO CLUE what the problem is tells me [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Good plan. And do not take the vehicle back there until this > whole matter is sorted out. And maybe not after that either. Never again. We'll seek our own help rather than rely on this dealership again. It also proves a good point... a cheap car is A CHEAP CAR. You can probably expect the dealer to be just as cheap. >>Tammy told the mechanics to let us have our car and she would >>inform Brian of what has occurred. > > Smart move on her part. Now wait and see if the 'warranties' are > voided because you took the vehicle with out those 'needed' > repairs. DOCUMENT everything. She left a voice mail before we even made it home stating that our warranties were no longer valid. This was because we did not allow the mechanics to finish the job and we "were trying to cost the dealership more money." It is odd though... our warranty does not even cover the heater or A/C so how are our warranties voided? The O2 sensor was the only thing covered and supposedly they fixed that. >>Now seriously... the heater and A/C do the EXACT same thing as >>before it got sent there. Turn it on whilst idling and it does [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > no friends. You cannot say nice guy and used car salesman in the > same sentence. Haha, sad but true! > Don't know if your area requires a Certificate of Safety. But if > the heater blows cold at idle, how did that pass? I am not sure. I know we have something called "the lemon law," or something like that. I will check though. > Take a hard look at all the items they claimed to have > fixed/replaced. While they may have been, this sounds way too > fishy. DOCUMENT everything because this ain't over yet. And > take this to a real shop with real mechanics for asecond look. > What ever that costs will be a damn sight cheaper than the route > your now on. Yes sir! Everything is documented and still being documented as it continues. Thanks, Pete! You have been most helpful! Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am > kidding. No I am not. Pay them for the *repairs* (even tho nothing was repaired) Find a reputable shop! Ask all your friends, call AAA, call the BBB. Contact the ASA (http://www.asashop.org/)., preferably not a dealership, preferably one that specializes in your type of car. Tell them about your situation, show them your reciepts. Get your car fixed, then sue the first shop and get your money back. They violated almost every area of repair shop ethics, performing unapproved work is illegal in all 50 states; hiring incompetent tech's is stupid *and* unethical. They dont stand a chance in court. HTH, Ben Response from "benteaches@gmail.com" <benteaches@gmail.com>: >> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem? >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > incompetent tech's is stupid *and* unethical. > They dont stand a chance in court. Gotcha. I am going to check with ALL of those places first thing in the morning and see what they tell me. Also, I am going to withhold payment until this afternoon when we talk to the lawyer again. Their advisement was to refuse payment for 2 reasons: 1. To see if the dealership attempted to keep the car. That would have been illegal since we are current on payments, have it insured and something else they said... I forgot... 2. Nothing was authorized. No work orders or ANYTHING were signed that said we were to be held responsible for payment before our car was to be released. That is partly why it would have been illegal to keep the car. Which I think they were aware of because the assistant manager released the car to us after trying to trick us into OK'ing further repairs. After being updated with the rest of the information though they might advise that we go ahead and pay it and which time we will (or at the very least do the refinancing thing). Thanks for the information, Ben. It was helpful! Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response from "benteaches@gmail.com" <benteaches@gmail.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Thanks for the information, Ben. It was helpful! I just read through this thread and it was rather amazing. If this is a new car dealer you ought to complain to their zone office, and everyone else up the chain right on up to the CEO, there is no excuse for a dealer behaving like this. From the sound of it they are not only incompetent they are downright crooked. You ought to also complain to your local BBB and if you have a local TV station that has a troubleshooter you ought to let them know, nothing like publicity to get attention. I THINK if they had kept the car it would be something called "conversion", which is highly illegal and after the lawyers got through with them you wouldn't have to worry about this old van anymore, the fat settlement you got would enable you to buy a brand new one... from someone else! Good luck! Jeff DeWitt Response from Jeff DeWitt <JeffDeWitt@nc.rr.com>: >> Response from "benteaches@gmail.com" <benteaches@gmail.com>: >> [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > sound of it they are not only incompetent they are downright > crooked. It was Car Mart. Definitely a "big player" in car dealership unless I am mistaken. So I am sure they have higher-ups. I am going to check that out, thanks! > You ought to also complain to your local BBB and if you have a > local TV station that has a troubleshooter you ought to let them > know, nothing like publicity to get attention. Done and done. The BBB said to keep them abreast of the situation they have HAD COMPLAINTS BEFORE on this very same dealership. The local newspaper and local radio station said to keep them aware of the situation too and to let them know what the BBB and the manager of the dealership says. It would definitely be cool if they did an interview (which my lawyer said would be a bad move until this is settled). Although them running a small piece about "buyers beware" or "making sure you do your homework before purchasing that new or used car," is more likely. > I THINK if they had kept the car it would be something called > "conversion", which is highly illegal and after the lawyers got > through with them you wouldn't have to worry about this old van > anymore, the fat settlement you got would enable you to buy a > brand new one... from someone else! Jeez, now I wish I had left it. Heh. Thanks for the tips and information, Mr. DeWitt. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not.
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