Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / January 2008

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Should SUV Driving amount to Drunk Driving?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
donquijote1954 - 10 Dec 2007 22:39 GMT
Are SUVs' tinted windows a sign of shame? Or are they a sign of
misanthropism? I know their wanton disregard for the environment and
their isolation from others causes a lot of problems. I can never read
what they are up to, for one. And I feel terrorized in my bike or
scooter. I just know I better get out of their way, just as from drunk
drivers.

It's very fitting what this quote applies to frequent flyers...

"Such wanton disregard for the environment must become as socially
unacceptable as drunk driving."

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1152757.0.0.php

WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? ;)
http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 10 Dec 2007 23:55 GMT
>Are SUVs' tinted windows a sign of shame? Or are they a sign of
>misanthropism? I know their wanton disregard for the environment and
>their isolation from others causes a lot of problems. I can never read
>what they are up to, for one. And I feel terrorized in my bike or
>scooter. I just know I better get out of their way, just as from drunk
>drivers.

Perhaps you should give up the liquor cycle, and you won't be so
intimidated.

>It's very fitting what this quote applies to frequent flyers...
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? ;)
>http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 11 Dec 2007 00:26 GMT
On Dec 10, 6:55 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >Are SUVs' tinted windows a sign of shame? Or are they a sign of
> >misanthropism? I know their wanton disregard for the environment and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Perhaps you should give up the liquor cycle, and you won't be so
> intimidated.

I don't drink and drive. But even if I did, I wouldn't be a threat to
anyone while I ride a scooter or bike.

That takes an SUV driver (Republican, of course)...

Police Say Man Driving SUV In Crash Was Drunk

SACRAMENTO (CBS13) -- The man who was behind the wheel of what's left
of a red Jeep Cherokee police say was driving drunk.

Tonight, we're learning Roberto Vellanoweth has been a driving force
in local politics for years. He was the past chairman of the
Republican National Hispanic Assembly.

http://cbs13.com/local/Robert.Vellanoweth.DUI.2.476828.html
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 11 Dec 2007 02:54 GMT
>On Dec 10, 6:55 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>I don't drink and drive. But even if I did, I wouldn't be a threat to

You should give the same diligence to sobriety while posting as you do
while driving.

>anyone while I ride a scooter or bike.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>http://cbs13.com/local/Robert.Vellanoweth.DUI.2.476828.html

Sweet! You take one incident, and apply it nationwide. I can't wait
until I get addicted to crack, so I can be as smart as you dimocraps!

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
Jeff DeWitt - 11 Dec 2007 03:21 GMT
>>On Dec 10, 6:55 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
> - Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy

All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
unlike Mr. Vellanoweth.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 11 Dec 2007 04:24 GMT
>>>On Dec 10, 6:55 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>>>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
>unlike Mr. Vellanoweth.

But wait; that's a US Senator! That's not fair!

Oops, morality only applies when it involves republicans. My bad. :-(

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 11 Dec 2007 15:26 GMT
> >>On Dec 10, 6:55 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
> unlike Mr. Vellanoweth.-

He was a young man back then.

Anyway I do a Google search for "road safety" and all the returns are
from other countries, where they already have better safety.

I wonder when it will become an issue in the national elections.
Probably Republicans (and Democrats) will flunk the test...

Premier launches Christmas Road Safety Campaign

(Media-Newswire.com) - Premier Anna Bligh has urged all Queenslanders
to make staying alive their priority, as millions of people hit the
nation's roads over the Christmas holiday period.

Launching the Christmas Road Safety Campaign with police on the Gold
Coast yesterday, Ms Bligh said motorists must take responsibility for
their actions, if they are going to make it home safely in the New
Year.

"2007 has been a shocking year on Queensland roads, with 342 lives
already lost - 33 more than this time last year," Ms Bligh said.

"At this rate the annual road toll is likely to be the highest in a
decade, since the road toll reached 360 in 1997.

http://media-newswire.com/release_1058561.html
Bawana - 11 Dec 2007 16:09 GMT
On Dec 11, 10:26 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> > >>On Dec 10, 6:55 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> > >>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> He was a young man back then.

Once a murderer and coward, always a murderer and coward.

> Anyway I do a Google search for "road safety" and all the returns are
> from other countries, where they already have better safety.

"Countries" smaller than Ohio?
donquijote1954 - 11 Dec 2007 16:32 GMT
> On Dec 11, 10:26 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> "Countries" smaller than Ohio?-

I thought Australia was bigger than Ohio.
Bawana - 11 Dec 2007 17:37 GMT
On Dec 11, 11:32 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> > On Dec 11, 10:26 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> I thought Australia was bigger than Ohio.

Australia is like an old woman's pussy...
everybody knows it's down there but nobody pays it any attention.
donquijote1954 - 12 Dec 2007 02:08 GMT
> On Dec 11, 11:32 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> Australia is like an old woman's pussy...
> everybody knows it's down there but nobody pays it any attention.-

Mad because they quit your "coalition" and joined Kyoto?
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 12 Dec 2007 02:25 GMT
>> On Dec 11, 10:26 am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
>I thought Australia was bigger than Ohio.

Thinking and addressing the issues obviously are two areas you're a
failure in.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 12 Dec 2007 02:24 GMT
>> All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
>> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
>> unlike Mr. Vellanoweth.-
>
>He was a young man back then.

WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in Denmark? Regardless
of age, a sitting US senator killed someone, and now he's passing laws
that affect you and I. Too freakin' delusional to see the problem
there, sh.t for brains?

>Anyway I do a Google search for "road safety" and all the returns are
>from other countries, where they already have better safety.

Been speaking english long, idiot?

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
Michael R. Kesti - 12 Dec 2007 03:28 GMT
>>> All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
>>> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Been speaking english long, idiot?

This was exactly my thought when you used the nominative rather than
objective pronoun when you listed those affected by Kennedy's lawmaking,
a.shole.

Signature

========================================================================
         Michael Kesti            |  "And like, one and one don't make
                                  |   two, one and one make one."
   mrkesti at hotmail dot com     |          - The Who, Bargain

Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 12 Dec 2007 03:40 GMT
>>>> All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
>>>> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>objective pronoun when you listed those affected by Kennedy's lawmaking,
>a.shole.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was addressing you, retard.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
Michael R. Kesti - 12 Dec 2007 04:08 GMT
>>>>> All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
>>>>> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was addressing you, retard.

There doesn't seem to be much that you do realize, dick head.

Signature

========================================================================
         Michael Kesti            |  "And like, one and one don't make
                                  |   two, one and one make one."
   mrkesti at hotmail dot com     |          - The Who, Bargain

Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 12 Dec 2007 23:51 GMT
>>>>>> All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
>>>>>> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>There doesn't seem to be much that you do realize, dick head.

Really? How would a moron like yourself be able to judge that, sh.t
for brains?

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 12 Dec 2007 15:37 GMT
On Dec 11, 9:24 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:

> >> All right, I'll see your Republican member of the optomirists board and
> >> raise you one Ted (hic)Kennedy who killed a girl and then ran and hid,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that affect you and I. Too freakin' delusional to see the problem
> there, sh.t for brains?

The supreme leader is an Army dodger. But well, he was young back
then.

> >Anyway I do a Google search for "road safety" and all the returns are
> >from other countries, where they already have better safety.
>
> Been speaking english long, idiot?

Queen's English, redneck!
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 12 Dec 2007 23:52 GMT
>On Dec 11, 9:24 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>The supreme leader is an Army dodger. But well, he was young back
>then.

Guess dodging the army is a much more heinous offense than murdering
your pregnant mistress, eh?

>> >Anyway I do a Google search for "road safety" and all the returns are
>> >from other countries, where they already have better safety.
>>
>> Been speaking english long, idiot?
>
>Queen's English, redneck!

Queer's english? Why's that, buffoon?

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 13 Dec 2007 21:00 GMT
On Dec 12, 6:52 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 11, 9:24 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Queer's english? Why's that, buffoon?

You rednecks don' t understand about it but English comes from
England, in which the Queen teaches you how to speak.

You better stick to sign language while there.
donquijote1954 - 14 Dec 2007 17:40 GMT
OK, here is what the revolution proposes for the transportation
issue...

1- BIKE LANES ON EVERY MAJOR STREET.

2- ENFORCE ROAD MANNERS, passing on the left only.

3- NO STUPID CELL PHONE, or DVD, or other dangerous gadgets.

4- SPECIAL LICENSE FOR SUVs. They are trucks, right?

5- SPEED CAMERAS. Yes, you can smile.

6- MORE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.

7- NO MORE SPRAWL.

8- HIGHER GAS PRICES.

9- No more bumper stickers on SUVs (just kidding).

Did I mention there was a revolution?

http://atom.smasher.org/streetparty/?l1=Coming+Soon%3A&l2=the&l3=Banana+Revoluti
on%21&l4
=

BIKE FOR PEACE
http://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 14 Dec 2007 23:32 GMT
>On Dec 12, 6:52 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>You rednecks don' t understand about it but English comes from
>England, in which the Queen teaches you how to speak.

We know where English comes from, but prefer not to bother ourselves
with the queer's english. That's why we kicked your wimpy limey a.ses
OUT around 225 years ago; didn't you get the memo, moron?

>You better stick to sign language while there.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 15 Dec 2007 00:10 GMT
On Dec 14, 6:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 12, 6:52 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> >You better stick to sign language while there.

I wouldn't be disrespectful with them. First of all, they are your
best partners in world domination. However they also have very good
driving laws and very, very efficient cars.
Professor1942 - 15 Dec 2007 07:07 GMT
I'm going SUV shopping this weekend - I'll keep you posted.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 15 Dec 2007 14:48 GMT
>I'm going SUV shopping this weekend - I'll keep you posted.

I understand that if you buy them in bulk, you're eligible for
discounts.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 16 Dec 2007 17:45 GMT
On Dec 15, 9:48 am, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >I'm going SUV shopping this weekend - I'll keep you posted.
>
> I understand that if you buy them in bulk, you're eligible for
> discounts.

That's another way to vote Republican.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 16 Dec 2007 18:05 GMT
>On Dec 15, 9:48 am, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>That's another way to vote Republican.

Not a problem; I can afford it.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 16 Dec 2007 22:42 GMT
On Dec 16, 1:05 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 15, 9:48 am, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Not a problem; I can afford it.

Big donors are always welcome in politics. Then they shape politics.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 17 Dec 2007 02:30 GMT
>On Dec 16, 1:05 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Big donors are always welcome in politics. Then they shape politics.

So what's your point?

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 17 Dec 2007 16:17 GMT
On Dec 16, 9:30 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 16, 1:05 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> So what's your point?

SUV owners dominate American politics. Others are ignored.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 17 Dec 2007 18:17 GMT
>On Dec 16, 9:30 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>SUV owners dominate American politics. Others are ignored.

LMAO. So buy you an SUV, and become an American politician. Works for
that great environmentalist Mr. John Kerry.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 17 Dec 2007 22:05 GMT
On Dec 17, 1:17 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 16, 9:30 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> LMAO. So buy you an SUV, and become an American politician. Works for
> that great environmentalist Mr. John Kerry.

No, I mean SUV owners (the middle and upper middle class) as a group
tend to vote for the status quo, which means no room for bikes or
smaller vehicles.

It just doesn't become an issue.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 18 Dec 2007 02:53 GMT
>On Dec 17, 1:17 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>It just doesn't become an issue.

ROTFLMAO. I reside in a VERY red state. I have no clue if our SUV
concentration is higher than other areas, and I really don't care, but
I know the city and county has spent the last two years dumping a ton
of money and done a lot of construction in the venture to become a
bike aware town.

Come back when you've got a clue.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 18 Dec 2007 15:30 GMT
On Dec 17, 9:53 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 17, 1:17 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Come back when you've got a clue.

Tell me where it is. I may consider putting up with the Republicans in
order to have some safety on the road.
donquijote1954 - 16 Dec 2007 17:40 GMT
> I'm going SUV shopping this weekend - I'll keep you posted.

I don't blame you. If you want to survive the asphalt jungle, you
better drive something big and stupid.

You getting, the ghetto style with the flashy rims, or the Republican
style with the pro-war bumper stickers?
donquijote1954 - 16 Dec 2007 17:45 GMT
OK, here's a plan that won't cost you a penny (I know how penny-
pinching Republicans are for issues other than the war), so it should
be given serious consideration (as if they give a damn). Anyway here
it goes...

ENFORCE LANE DISCIPLINE, yes like in civilized countries slower
traffic keeps to the right, so here's where the bicycles belong...
Hey, I haven't finished yet. The bicycles are entitled to TAKE THE
LANE, because they are vehicles too, and everybody else must pass on
the other lanes. Put signs to the effect, and hand out hefty fines to
all those who break the law. They are the ones paying for future bike
lanes and other bike facilities.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 16 Dec 2007 18:08 GMT
>OK, here's a plan that won't cost you a penny (I know how penny-
>pinching Republicans are for issues other than the war), so it should
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>all those who break the law. They are the ones paying for future bike
>lanes and other bike facilities.

Lane discipline? That would assume that the majority of the population
understands what that is.

They don't.

Here's a clue, since you're obviously too damned stupid to come up
with one on your own: Teach them how to drive to begin with, and make
the qualification process far stricter.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 16 Dec 2007 22:45 GMT
On Dec 16, 1:08 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >OK, here's a plan that won't cost you a penny (I know how penny-
> >pinching Republicans are for issues other than the war), so it should
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> with one on your own: Teach them how to drive to begin with, and make
> the qualification process far stricter.

Enforcement of lane discipline can help toward that end. They'll
understand later.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 17 Dec 2007 02:32 GMT
>On Dec 16, 1:08 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Enforcement of lane discipline can help toward that end. They'll
>understand later.

"They'll understand later?" Now I know you're retarded. A major
portion of the problem is everyone assumes they'll understand later,
and then fail to do so.

Teach first, then enforce. Classical behavioral modification, moron.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 17 Dec 2007 16:19 GMT
On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 16, 1:08 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Teach first, then enforce. Classical behavioral modification, moron.

That's why I said "put signs" that the bicycles belong on the right
lane.

But coercion works too. Just look at DUIs.
Seth Hammond - 17 Dec 2007 16:48 GMT
> On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> (Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> But coercion works too. Just look at DUIs.

The very first instruction I received after car operation was "Keep to the
right unless passing or turning left.".  That seems pretty simple to me.
What happened?  Why are US highways becoming as cluttered with random lane
use as city streets?  Passing lane hogs won't move over even if you flash
your lights.  I just drove some 4800 miles of freeway, and I was amazed at
the number of times I passed on the right.  I've given up on trying to get
road hogs to move over.  I just pass on the right.  At least I don't
mindlessly join the parade of dullards who fall in behind the hog.

What's needed is better law enforcement.  Blocking traffic is illegal, but
cops can't be everywhere.  CCTV cameras can.  I'd welcome them, but only if
citations are issued for *every* violation, not just speeding.  All On ramps
should have a camera to record all violations of MERGE.  Entering a flow of
traffic going 75 doesn't mean making others hopefully break while you enter
at 45.
donquijote1954 - 17 Dec 2007 18:19 GMT
On Dec 17, 11:48 am, "Seth Hammond" <lesliesethhamm...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> > (Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> road hogs to move over.  I just pass on the right.  At least I don't
> mindlessly join the parade of dullards who fall in behind the hog.

The problem is so pervasive that people don't even know by now that
they are doing anything wrong.

Some of them may even be want to kill you if you blow the horn to
remind them to get them out of the way. :(

> What's needed is better law enforcement.  Blocking traffic is illegal, but
> cops can't be everywhere.  CCTV cameras can.  I'd welcome them, but only if
> citations are issued for *every* violation, not just speeding.  All On ramps
> should have a camera to record all violations of MERGE.  Entering a flow of
> traffic going 75 doesn't mean making others hopefully break while you enter
> at 45.-

What we need is better laws and the law enforcement will follow. Few
cops enforce passing on the left because there's no such laws. They
just concentrate on speeding and DUI's as if they were the only
problems out there.

I totally agree with the cameras though. You could put them to enforce
speed on the right lane in residential areas to 30MPH. Then bikes
would be safer, the speed differential being much smaller.
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 17 Dec 2007 18:21 GMT
>> On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>> (Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>traffic going 75 doesn't mean making others hopefully break while you enter
>at 45.

Exceeding some magic number painted on a sign is not a valid metric as
to a given driver's ability to operate a motor vehicle.

Inability to stop for traffic signals, being unable to figure out how
your turn signal operates, and improper lane use are discrete
indications of the motor vehicle operator's capacity; these would make
decent metrics.

Teaching people how to drive properly, including being situationally
aware and knowing how to properly utilize traffic lanes will provide
three major benefits: increased safety, increased efficiency, and
decreased fuel use.

But if the American public is too stupid to realize that, perhaps it's
best that the Chinese and the Mexicans take their jobs, as they
obviously don't deserve them anyway.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 17 Dec 2007 22:13 GMT
On Dec 17, 1:21 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:

> >> On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >> (Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> best that the Chinese and the Mexicans take their jobs, as they
> obviously don't deserve them anyway.

I totally agree with that but I don't want to be that rude. ;)

But I'm an optimist. "Where there's a will, there's a way."

The problem is, WHERE'S THE POLITICAL WILL?
Road Glidin' Don - 18 Dec 2007 04:12 GMT
>I totally agree with that but I don't want to be that rude. ;)

Not rude, really?  You've been cross-posting your stupid, off-topic
sh.t over multiple newsgroups for years, a.shole.  And you cry about
how people don't respect rules?  You're the poster child for
self-centered, anti-social behaviour.

--

Home page: http://xidos.ca
donquijote1954 - 18 Dec 2007 15:48 GMT
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:13:30 -0800 (PST), donquijote1954
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> how people don't respect rules?  You're the poster child for
> self-centered, anti-social behaviour.

They let you write in your lunch break in prison?

Try to learn something at least.
Road Glidin' Don - 19 Dec 2007 05:24 GMT
>> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:13:30 -0800 (PST), donquijote1954
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Try to learn something at least.

f.ck off.

--

Home page: http://xidos.ca
Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein) - 19 Dec 2007 00:47 GMT
>On Dec 17, 1:21 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
>I totally agree with that but I don't want to be that rude. ;)

It's usenet. It's my understanding that rude is a part of the norm, at
least after AOL opened it's flood gates.

>But I'm an optimist. "Where there's a will, there's a way."
>
>The problem is, WHERE'S THE POLITICAL WILL?

Where's the will, period? Voters elect the politicians, and they keep
voting for the same stupid sh.t over and over, so it's obvious they
are unable to learn from their past. I think the majority of Americans
are incapable of seeing beyond next week, or the next vehicle, as the
case may be.

--

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.
- Admiral Hyman Rickover, U.S. Navy
donquijote1954 - 19 Dec 2007 15:42 GMT
On Dec 18, 7:47 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 17, 1:21 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
> >(Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> are incapable of seeing beyond next week, or the next vehicle, as the
> case may be.

I think they mostly vote AGAINST gay rights and abortion.

The very things that affect them are ignored. :(
Vito - 19 Dec 2007 15:48 GMT
"Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)"
<drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote
> Where's the will, period? Voters elect the politicians, and they keep
> voting for the same stupid sh.t over and over,.....

FWIW both parties have "Leadership" schools where they teach dishonesty.
Typical lesson:

Suppose you have a plan that really would end all the problems in the world.
But first you gotta get elected and there is no guarantee that voters will
like your plan. So you must:
a) Collect as much money as possible promising people with money that you
will make them even richer.
b) Hire the best pollsters money can buy to find out what voters want to
hear.
c) Buy as much advertising as you can to tell people what they want to hear.
Note that none of this has any connection to your real plans.

So we listen to the candidates and debates and choose the ones who best
articulate what we want to hear then are forever surprised when the don't do
any of the things they said they would.

And the beat goes on .......
donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2007 16:22 GMT
> "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)"
> <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>  And the beat goes on .......

And what happens with the stuff they do NOT talk about, it isn't real?

So there's no problem with ROAD SAFETY in America, just because the
candidates haven't said it's a problem. And how can we ever find a
solution for something that's not a problem?
:-/ - 20 Dec 2007 16:25 GMT
> > "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver (Hector Goldstein)"
> > <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
:-/ - 20 Dec 2007 16:28 GMT
> And how can we ever find a
> solution for something that's not a problem?

Confucius say, "Man who go to bed with stiff problem wake up with
solution in hand."

Your solution is at hand. Quit trying to jack us off and do your
private business behind closed doors.
Road Glidin' Don - 21 Dec 2007 00:34 GMT
>So there's no problem with ROAD SAFETY in America, just because the
>candidates haven't said it's a problem. And how can we ever find a
>solution for something that's not a problem?

Shut-the-f.ck-up.

--

Home page: http://xidos.ca
Rich - 18 Dec 2007 04:22 GMT
>> On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>> (Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> road hogs to move over.  I just pass on the right.  At least I don't
> mindlessly join the parade of dullards who fall in behind the hog.

Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
have to wait. It's not your damn road and it's not 'your way' I'm in.

Cheers,

Rich
Seth Hammond - 18 Dec 2007 05:40 GMT
>>> On Dec 16, 9:32 pm, "Murderous Speeding Drunken Distracted Driver
>>> (Hector Goldstein)" <drunk_and_distracted@the_wheel.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Rich

I rest my case.
sleazy rider - 18 Dec 2007 14:21 GMT
> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
> get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Rich

BZZZT, but thank's for playing.  Try doing the speed limit, actually
passing that car you're along side and showing some f.cking courtesy,
moron.  I move over for faster traffic.  Trust me, it's not painful nor
does it slow me down in any way.  I also don't ride the left or middle
lane if the one to the right is clear.  Go buy yourself a clue.

Signature

sleazy

R1150GSA - "Terminator"
Trophy 1200 - "The Fast One"

Rich - 18 Dec 2007 14:42 GMT
>> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling
>> at to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> passing that car you're along side and showing some f.cking courtesy,
> moron.

Clearly you don't know what courtesy means, and 100mpg is not anywhere
near any speed limit in CA.

> I move over for faster traffic.

What do you do when the lanes to the right are full, bumper to bumper?

> Trust me, it's not painful nor does it slow me down in any way.

Since you can't read I doubt your driving is much better.

> I also don't ride the left or middle
> lane if the one to the right is clear.  Go buy yourself a clue.

I think the cops have a clue what to do about drivers going 100mph
even though you have none.

Cheers,

Rich
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com - 18 Dec 2007 15:38 GMT
>>> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling
>>> at to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Clearly you don't know what courtesy means, and 100mpg is not anywhere
>near any speed limit in CA.

    It is, however, considered to be vey good mileage.

Signature

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

sleazy rider - 18 Dec 2007 16:53 GMT
>>> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
>>> get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Rich

Try reading for comprehension next time, asswipe.  Now you're just
being an a.s.  I don't travel at 100 mph.  I don't even travel at 80.  
I do, however, know how to move my steering wheel right and left.  Try
it sometime.  It doesn't even hurt.  *buh-bye*

Signature

sleazy

R1150GSA - "Terminator"
Trophy 1200 - "The Fast One"

:-/ - 18 Dec 2007 15:22 GMT
> BZZZT, but thank's for playing. �Try doing the speed limit, actually
> passing that car you're along side and showing some f.cking courtesy,
> moron. �

California drivers are NOT required to show "f.cking courtesy", or any
other kind
of courtesy.

Rich apparently lives in California and drives in California. If you
google for the word "courtesy" in the California Vehicle Code under
"Rules of the Road", you
won't find it.

The only reference to "courtesy" relates to the "courtesy lights" in
the doors of cars, under Equipment.

And, on California highways, there is no "passing lane" or "fast
lane", all lanes of
travel may be occupied continuously.

Since there are no designated "passing lanes" and all lanes of travel
can be occupied continuously, the driver in the left lane is NOT
passing the drivers in the
lanes to the right.

Passing is actually a maneuver that involves safely operating your
vehicle on the opposite side of the road, counter to the normal
direction of traffic in the opposite lane.

Drivers who are passing other vehicles are not allowed to exceed the
speed limit in order to pass.

Passing is a maneuver which should only take place when a car
travelling at the speed limit overtakes a vehicle which is travelling
a lot slower.

Speeders travelling faster than the speed limits are not supposed to
be passing everything on the road, just because they like to drive
fast. True courtesy is obeying all traffic laws, including speed
limits.

> I move over for faster traffic.

I move over for self-righteous lunatics. If I'm cruising at the speed
limit in the left hand lane and a self-righteous lunatic begins
tailgating me, I will speed up enough to
get room to move into the lanes to the right and let the tailgating
retard go by.

>I also don't ride the left or middle lane if the one to the right is clear.

Drivers of cars, busses, SUV's, RV's, vans, and motorcycles can
operate their vehicles in ANY lane of a California highway, regardless
of whether other lanes are perceived to have less traffic.

If there is any REAL courtesy expected, it is that you drive at or
near the speed limit, stay in one lane, and do not tailgate the
vehicle ahead.

>Go buy yourself a clue.

Go read your own state's vehicle code and quit preaching to drivers in
other states about your imaginary "courtesy".
Rich - 19 Dec 2007 14:41 GMT
>> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling
>> at to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> passing that car you're along side and showing some f.cking courtesy,
> moron.

When I'm executing a pass, I'm executing a pass. If you don't like it
get off the road.

> I move over for faster traffic.

In bay area traffic, it's not so easy, and "faster" is illusory. The
only lane that goes faster (usually) is the commuter lane.

> Trust me, it's not painful nor does it slow me down in any way.

On a near empty road, perhaps. During rush hour, it's not that easy.
The driver behind me is in traffic, they ain't gonna go mush faster
regardless of what I do. And many accidents are caused by lane changes.

> I also don't ride the left or middle
> lane if the one to the right is clear.

You have the luxury of roads not near capacity. Enjoy it.

> Go buy yourself a clue.

Get one yourself.

Cheers,

Rich
Brent P - 19 Dec 2007 15:00 GMT

>> Trust me, it's not painful nor does it slow me down in any way.

> On a near empty road, perhaps. During rush hour, it's not that easy.
> The driver behind me is in traffic, they ain't gonna go mush faster
> regardless of what I do. And many accidents are caused by lane changes.

So you'll just camp out in the left lane for your personal ease. MFFY.

I manage to keep right except to pass in chicago traffic. It's not
difficult. It only requires one be involved in the task of driving.

>> I also don't ride the left or middle
>> lane if the one to the right is clear.

> You have the luxury of roads not near capacity. Enjoy it.

Keep right except to pass is how maximize the capacity of the roads. If
you're blocking the passing lane you're part of the problem. I manage to
follow keep right except to pass in Chicago traffic, and trust me, I've
been in bumper to bumper jams at 2am. The roads are near or over
capacity much of the time.

I've also watched three idiots jam up a road in 'light' traffic by
driving side by slower than the mean travel speed.

The traffic tends to clump because of poor drivers who sit in the passing
lane. Clumps form as people try to sift through the blockage or  just
decide to stay behind whatever blocking driver they have encountered.
These clumps grow and eventually run into each other as drivers enter the
road at a higher rate than they are leaving.

Once the clumps run into each other the road tips into serious
congestion, stop and go, from braking waves, poor merging,  etc. If
people kept right except to pass, these clumps wouldn't form in light
traffic, but start forming only at higher volumes thusly the onset of
stop-and-go would be put off to greater traffic volumes or not even
occur because the rate of drivers leaving the road would be higher. (the
driver caught in the clumps would instead keep traveling at their
desired speed and be able to reach their destination ramp sooner,
increasing the number of drivers per unit time leaving the
limited access highway)
Rich - 19 Dec 2007 15:29 GMT
>  
>>> Trust me, it's not painful nor does it slow me down in any way.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> So you'll just camp out in the left lane for your personal ease. MFFY.

No, because I'm going somewhere. All the traffic's going at pretty
much the same speed, in all lanes, imagine that. And it's nowhere
near the limit.

> I manage to keep right except to pass in chicago traffic. It's not
> difficult. It only requires one be involved in the task of driving.

All the lanes are packed bozo.

>>> I also don't ride the left or middle
>>> lane if the one to the right is clear.
>
>> You have the luxury of roads not near capacity. Enjoy it.
>
> Keep right except to pass is how maximize the capacity of the roads.

When the roads are at capacity, this makes no sense. There is
no "passing" as such, everyone is going at the same slow speed
on average and the speed difference when one lane opens up is
not that great.

> If  you're blocking the passing lane you're part of the problem.

It's not a passing lane in rush hour, it's just another lane.

> I manage to follow keep right except to pass in Chicago traffic,

Can you rephrase this?

> and trust me, I've
> been in bumper to bumper jams at 2am. The roads are near or over
> capacity much of the time.

There is no such thing as a passing lane in bumper to bumper traffic.
I observe that often the slow lane goes faster than the fast lane.
Is this then the passing lane?

> I've also watched three idiots jam up a road in 'light' traffic by
> driving side by slower than the mean travel speed.

Seen that too.

> The traffic tends to clump because of poor drivers who sit in the passing
> lane.

I'm not sure that this has anything to do with it. In any differentiated
traffic the faster traffic will eventually pile up against the slower
traffic, causing clumps.

> Clumps form as people try to sift through the blockage or  just
> decide to stay behind whatever blocking driver they have encountered.

They also form when a road narrows or where heavy traffic enters a
crowded road, i.e. every few miles in the south bay on I880. The backup
can run for miles. Complete extended stoppages are not uncommon. There
is no passing as such, just moving is a good thing.

> These clumps grow and eventually run into each other as drivers enter the
> road at a higher rate than they are leaving.
>
> Once the clumps run into each other the road tips into serious
> congestion, stop and go, from braking waves, poor merging,  etc. If
> people kept right except to pass,

The right is jammed by traffic from the many offramps.

> these clumps wouldn't form in light traffic,

Light traffic, I remember that.

> but start forming only at higher volumes thusly the onset of
> stop-and-go would be put off to greater traffic volumes or not even
> occur because the rate of drivers leaving the road would be higher.

No, it would not. I take the same exit every day going to work. Why?
That's the exit that leads to my place of employment. Everyone has
a destination, and it don't move because of others driving habits.

> (the
> driver caught in the clumps would instead keep traveling at their
> desired speed

No one is traveling at the desired speed except in short bursts
(and often in the commuter lane, but not always).

> and be able to reach their destination ramp sooner,
> increasing the number of drivers per unit time leaving the
> limited access highway)

Roads at or near capacity are always slow and intermittent in
nature. Roads that narrow (as I880S does near San Jose) always
backup in heavy traffic. Roads that widen (again as I880 just
south of said narrowing) always have traffic moving at the
desired speed. It's a function of congestion, not driving
habits. In heavy traffic no one's driving at the desired speed.

Cheers,

Rich
Brent P - 19 Dec 2007 15:59 GMT
>>  
>>>> Trust me, it's not painful nor does it slow me down in any way.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> much the same speed, in all lanes, imagine that. And it's nowhere
> near the limit.

If it's moot when you do it, why are you arguing for left lane cruising in
general?  But how does the traffic jam up in the first place? A lot of it
is due to passing lane blocking by people who do it because they don't
want to be bothered being engaged in the task of driving. they want to
enter one lane and then sit in it until their exit. Given past
discussions with people who find lane changes troublesome and your other
posts you give the impression of someone who isn't involved in the task
of driving.

>> I manage to keep right except to pass in chicago traffic. It's not
>> difficult. It only requires one be involved in the task of driving.
>
> All the lanes are packed bozo.

All the lanes are packed in chicago too, a.shole. The difference is I am
engaged in the task of driving. I manage not to squat in the left lane
blocking anyone. If someone gets to my rear bumper it's because I myself
am blocked. I move right when I can then let that driver tailgate the
person I was behind.

>>>> I also don't ride the left or middle
>>>> lane if the one to the right is clear.
>>
>>> You have the luxury of roads not near capacity. Enjoy it.
>>
>> Keep right except to pass is how maximize the capacity of the roads.

> When the roads are at capacity, this makes no sense. There is
> no "passing" as such, everyone is going at the same slow speed
> on average and the speed difference when one lane opens up is
> not that great.

You don't understand. There are two capacities. The lower one where
people drive willy-nilly in the lane they feel like and the higher one
where people keep right except to pass.

>> If  you're blocking the passing lane you're part of the problem.

> It's not a passing lane in rush hour, it's just another lane.

It's always the passing lane. It seems you are looking for an excuse to
drive like an a.shole.

>> I manage to follow keep right except to pass in Chicago traffic,

> Can you rephrase this?

It means exactly what it says. I keep right except to pass in heavy urban
traffic.

>> and trust me, I've
>> been in bumper to bumper jams at 2am. The roads are near or over
>> capacity much of the time.
>
> There is no such thing as a passing lane in bumper to bumper traffic.

I see you don't want to think about things in any deeper way.

> I observe that often the slow lane goes faster than the fast lane.
> Is this then the passing lane?

How did that condition occur? Because of a.sholes blocking the passing
lane because they are more comfortable in the left lane and don't want to
change lanes.

>> I've also watched three idiots jam up a road in 'light' traffic by
>> driving side by slower than the mean travel speed.

> Seen that too.

And you don't wonder about that being the nuceulus that forms into bumper
to bumper traffic? The seed that grows into the jams?

>> The traffic tends to clump because of poor drivers who sit in the passing
>> lane.

> I'm not sure that this has anything to do with it. In any differentiated
> traffic the faster traffic will eventually pile up against the slower
> traffic, causing clumps.

Only when the pipe is closed down because blockers hold the faster
traffic back.

>> Clumps form as people try to sift through the blockage or  just
>> decide to stay behind whatever blocking driver they have encountered.

> They also form when a road narrows or where heavy traffic enters a
> crowded road, i.e. every few miles in the south bay on I880. The backup
> can run for miles. Complete extended stoppages are not uncommon. There
> is no passing as such, just moving is a good thing.

They do not form when a road narrows. They form when and where lane
discipline breaks down. I've seen roads speed up after a lane closure.
The jam before the lane closure being caused by people riding the closing
lane to the last moment then forcing people in the neighboring through
lane to brake to avoid a collision. Also enablers in the through lane who
will stop to let in people who couldn't be bothered to find a gap.

>> These clumps grow and eventually run into each other as drivers enter the
>> road at a higher rate than they are leaving.
>>
>> Once the clumps run into each other the road tips into serious
>> congestion, stop and go, from braking waves, poor merging,  etc. If
>> people kept right except to pass,

> The right is jammed by traffic from the many offramps.

Bad merging.

>> these clumps wouldn't form in light traffic,

> Light traffic, I remember that.

>> but start forming only at higher volumes thusly the onset of
>> stop-and-go would be put off to greater traffic volumes or not even
>> occur because the rate of drivers leaving the road would be higher.

> No, it would not. I take the same exit every day going to work. Why?
> That's the exit that leads to my place of employment. Everyone has
> a destination, and it don't move because of others driving habits.

THE RATE. Not the absolute number. If you don't know what a rate is, this
discussion is pointless. The number of drivers per unit time leaving the
limited access highway increases. The average time spent on the road goes
down. There's the in rate and the out rate. You get a jam if there is a
prolonged period where drivers entering the road exceeds those leaving
it. The greater the difference the faster the jam starts. By increasing
the number of drivers that reach their destination ramp per unit time,
the rate, the onset of a traffic jam happens later and later.

>> (the
>> driver caught in the clumps would instead keep traveling at their
>> desired speed

> No one is traveling at the desired speed except in short bursts
> (and often in the commuter lane, but not always).

In other words, you accept the traffic is going to jam and you throw up
your hands become part of the problem.

>> and be able to reach their destination ramp sooner,
>> increasing the number of drivers per unit time leaving the
>> limited access highway)

> Roads at or near capacity are always slow and intermittent in
> nature. Roads that narrow (as I880S does near San Jose) always
> backup in heavy traffic. Roads that widen (again as I880 just
> south of said narrowing) always have traffic moving at the
> desired speed. It's a function of congestion, not driving
> habits. In heavy traffic no one's driving at the desired speed.

Congestion is caused by poor driving habits. You only need a number of
drivers equal to the number of lanes driving poorly to greatly reduce the
capacity of a road.
donquijote1954 - 19 Dec 2007 17:04 GMT
On Dec 19, 10:59 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:

> Congestion is caused by poor driving habits. You only need a number of
> drivers equal to the number of lanes driving poorly to greatly reduce the
> capacity of a road.

All you say makes sense. But do we have any presidential candidate
who's making an issue out of it? Or they don't drive and know whats'
going on? Do they ever travel to Europe for anything other that
pleasure?

Europe
In some countries in Europe, traffic calming is gradually becoming a
regular part of urban traffic management, after a long evolution of
opinions and attitudes towards car use and vulnerable road users. From
1980 regulations for 30 km/h zones were enacted and have been widely
applied. New urban policies have been defined with a view to
encouraging a switch from car use to public transport and non-
motorised modes (cycling, walking), with the additional condition of
lower speeds to improve safety of vulnerable road users, for example
national policies such as "Sustainable Safety" in the Netherlands or
"Vision Zero" in Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limit

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against speed limits across the board.
Freeways can handle Autobahn speeds, provided drivers are certified,
and SUVs (trucks) have a speed limit of 70MPH. (Am I too lenient?)

"On all German roads, there are speed limits for trucks, buses, cars
towing trailers, and small motorised vehicles (Mopeds, etc.)"
Brent P - 19 Dec 2007 17:26 GMT
> On Dec 19, 10:59 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> All you say makes sense. But do we have any presidential candidate
> who's making an issue out of it?

No there isn't. However the only canidate I could see that would value
the principle of keep right except to pass, the 85th precentile method,
proper signal light timing, and other engineering best practices would be
Ron Paul. He's the only canidate that has demonstrated that he will read
up on a subject and make a reasoned decison on his position based on the
available information. The rest seem to be guided by what they think will
get them the most or how to play the emotions of people for one reason or
another.
donquijote1954 - 20 Dec 2007 16:16 GMT
On Dec 19, 12:26 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
wrote:
> In article <203297c5-8bbe-4f1a-b211-af1c4c221...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, donquijote1954 wrote:
> > On Dec 19, 10:59 am, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> get them the most or how to play the emotions of people for one reason or
> another.

He spoke about it? Couldn't find anything in his website.
Brent P - 20 Dec 2007 17:06 GMT
> On Dec 19, 12:26 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> He spoke about it? Couldn't find anything in his website.

No he hasn't said anything on it. I am saying as the canidate that
researches topics he's would go by the mountain of evidence for best
practices, not the propaganda and pandering.
Road Glidin' Don - 21 Dec 2007 00:42 GMT
>Couldn't find anything in his website.

You can't find anything inside your head either, so this one subject
that somehow managed to enter in, 5 f.cking years ago, you're still
talking about.  Time to move on and get a life, fucknuts.

--

Home page: http://xidos.ca
Scott in SoCal - 18 Dec 2007 14:50 GMT
>Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
>get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
>have to wait. It's not your damn road and it's not 'your way' I'm in.

Ah, yes, the Ed White position. :)

Just for the record, you're not required to speed up to 100 MPH to get
out of the way of faster traffic. You can also delay the onset of your
pass until faster traffic has passed you.

The Golden Rule of Driving states "I'll stay out of your way, just as
I would have you stay out of mine." I'll leave you to ponder how well
your driving meets with that ideal. :)
Rich - 18 Dec 2007 15:26 GMT
>> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
>> get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> out of the way of faster traffic. You can also delay the onset of your
> pass until faster traffic has passed you.

Not if the pass is in progress. It can take a while to find a clear spot
to leave the fast lane in CA traffic.

> The Golden Rule of Driving states "I'll stay out of your way, just as
> I would have you stay out of mine." I'll leave you to ponder how well
> your driving meets with that ideal. :)

The lane space I occupy is not 'your' way. As for golden rules it's amazing
how many times I pull into a clear spot for traffic that should be
airborne only to have them slow down and trap me in the slower lane.

US highways are not the autobahn.

Cheers,

Rich
.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com - 18 Dec 2007 15:51 GMT
>>> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
>>> get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> I would have you stay out of mine." I'll leave you to ponder how well
>> your driving meets with that ideal. :)

    And " I'll flip a booger on your windshield ".

    'Golden Rule' ?  I forget, does that come before or after nap
time and cookies ?

Signature

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Scott in SoCal - 19 Dec 2007 02:43 GMT
>>> The Golden Rule of Driving states "I'll stay out of your way, just as
>>> I would have you stay out of mine." I'll leave you to ponder how well
>>> your driving meets with that ideal. :)
>
>    And " I'll flip a booger on your windshield ".

You are MFFY incarnate.
donquijote1954 - 18 Dec 2007 16:20 GMT
> >> Sorry, if you demand that I speed up to the 100MPH you are traveling at to
> >> get around the traffic I am passing without 'inconveniencing' you, you'll just
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> US highways are not the autobahn.

No, but they could be. It's not only about safety, it's about freedom!

I think those who play vigilante, show some communist behavior: Nobody
will get ahead of me!

This guy wonders if there's any sense to it. Someone further down the
link reminisces it used to be that way in America...

QUESTION:
'This may sound like I'm whining.  I'm not (I hate that sound from
anyone).  But I am complaining.  Because, as drivers -- enthusiast or
otherwise -- we have a problem in this country.

I was rolling down the road the other day with sports car racing ace,
2005 Grand Am champion, and Rolex 24 winner Max Angelelli in the
passenger seat.  Sure it would have probably been more fun the other
way around, but no matter.  He asked, "Why don't drivers mind their
lane here in America?  Why do the slow cars hog the left lane?  It
seems to me that this complicates the traffic.  And why does everyone
get so angry when you flash your lights at them?"  Max maintains homes
in Monaco, Italy, and Florida.  So, besides his obvious driving
credentials, he has experience on roads all over the world.'

ANSWER:
' In Europe, particularly Italy and Germany, there are rules of the
road that cover this.  Trucks and slow cars to the right -- always.
What we would call the number two lane, in most instances, is for cars
only, moving along at the speed limit or above.  The number one lane,
the one we call the fast lane, but seldom is here -- really is over
there, reserved for those who are passing or really hauling butt.  And
everybody drives by these dictums.  All the time.

The benefits are many. Lane changes and weaving are reduced, because
you don't have to pretend you're on a slalom course just to maintain a
steady pace.  Those that want to cruise at a more relaxed pace can do
so, in lanes with other cars doing the same.  Those that want to move
along at legal or above legal speeds, can also do so.  And you don't
have to worry about a truck all of a sudden veering into the fast lane
from the slow lane.  Because they just don't.  It's all about an
unwritten trust that everyone on the road understands over there.

In Italy, if you're cruising the number one lane, and a faster car
comes up behind you, he'll usually give you a quick flash of the
lights as a polite notification that he's there, and an equally polite
request that you move over and let him by.  In America, that scenario
is viewed as "aggressive driving" and is often met with a single
fingered salute.

Do these Left Lane Bandits have a right to clog the faster lanes?  Yes
they do, unless they are going so slowly that they are a safety
hazard.  But when was the last time you saw a Highway Patrol officer
pull someone over for that?  More likely, these lane cloggers are
doing it because they can.  Why don't, as drivers, we mind our own
business, stop worrying if someone else is driving too fast or using
more fuel than we deem fit, and drive in the lane with cars going the
same speed as ours, be it 55 or 95?

I'm a proud American, and acknowledge all the rights and great things
we have in this country.  But good lane discipline isn't one of them.
It's so much better in other places.  It would be easy for the
American driving public to conduct itself this way, instead of
creating scenes that resemble a NASCAR pit lane.  But our drivers
don't.  Why?'

http://blogs.motortrend.com/6200177/editorial/lane-discipline-or-a-lack-thereof/
index.html

:-/ - 18 Dec 2007 16:34 GMT
On Dec 18, 8:20�am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm a proud American, and acknowledge all the rights and great things
> we have in this country. �

You're a f.cking Cuban refugee. How could you possibly understand the
American
mindset of obeying the laws because you're *proud* to obey the laws?
donquijote1954 - 18 Dec 2007 21:14 GMT
> On Dec 18, 8:20�am, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> American
> mindset of obeying the laws because you're *proud* to obey the laws?

The only American mindset is that of the Indians and they know by now
how to beat Europeans at their own game --gambling casinos.

I'm only relaying what a "proud American" says. If you don't want to
listen, it's your loss.
:-/ - 18 Dec 2007 21:25 GMT
On Dec 18, 1:14�pm, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> The only American mindset is that of the Indians and they know by now
> how to beat Europeans at their own game --gambling casinos.

Don't try to pull your Cuban bullshit on me.

The Indians didn't become American citizens until 1924. But they still
claim to be members of a foreign nation, i.e., the tribe that they are
enrolled in.

> I'm only relaying what a "proud American" says. If you don't want to
> listen, it's your loss.

The madman who called himself "Don Quixote" was obsessed with tilting
at windmills, just like you. He imagined that he was crusading for
justice, just like you.

Then he came to his senses and died from depression, just like you
will.
donquijote1954 - 18 Dec 2007 21:42 GMT
> On Dec 18, 1:14�pm, donquijote1954 <nolionnoprob...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Don't try to pull your Cuban bullshit on me.

Hey Polish Sausage, what is your background. Or are you Italian
Spaghetti. Or British tea time?

Listen, I'm more European than your are. Spanish to be exact, like
DonQuixote.

> The Indians didn't become American citizens until 1924. But they still
> claim to be members of a foreign nation, i.e., the tribe that they are
> enrolled in.

Fo