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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / February 2008How to start a stubborn Fuel Injected engine?
I recently bought my first fuel injected vehicle. Its a 1990 Ford truck. I have always had carbs in the past. I have not driven this truck for a month. It always started just fine, but for some reason it wont start. It turns over but wont "pop". I added a can of gas, because the gauge was low, but its not out of gas since I added the can. My question is how to start a Fuel Injection vehicle that wont start. On a carb, I'd spray a little starting fluid, or even pour a little gas in the carb, but is that possible on a F.I. engine? We have had very cold (zero) weather so that may be part of the problem, but it is warmer now and in the mid 30s. I just wanted to run it for a bit and also move it before it gets snowed in again. What do I do. I guess I could use a little overall advice on dealing with F.I. engines that wont start. I've dealt with carbs for the past 30+ years, but this is new to me. Thanks Forddriver (no valid email) > I recently bought my first fuel injected vehicle. Its a 1990 Ford > truck. I have always had carbs in the past. I have not driven this [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Forddriver > (no valid email) Something is wrong. The reason you spray starting fluid in a carburetored car is because the fuel isn't vaporizing well (and perhaps there isn't enough of it) when the engine is really cold. A fuel injected engine is supposed to spray the right amount of fuel already, and every injected engine I've ever had has always fired right up regardless of the weather (unless something was wrong). Now that being said you can take the big black hose loose from where it goes into the air horn (where the carburetor would be) and shoot some starting fluid in there, but be SURE you don't spray it on any sensors and be sure the stuff is listed as being safe for fuel injected engines. I'd start with the basics, how are the plugs, wires and filters? You might also run some good fuel injector cleaner (such as Techron) through it, or even better get the injectors professionally cleaned. That vehicle is going on 20 years old and if it has the original injectors they may very well have some crud built up and be partly clogged. If you have it in for that you might also have them check the fuel pressure, if it's low the engine is going to be starving for fuel at times. Good luck! 3 things to check for... Spark, compression and fuel. Does it crank normally? Compression is probably OK. Hold the coil wire 1/2 inch from ground and crank. See a spark? Move on. Sray some carb cleaner down the throttle body and crank. If it tries... fuel problem. Narrow it down and get back to us. HTH, Ben On Jan 8, 2:32 am, Forddri...@invalid.com wrote: > I recently bought my first fuel injected vehicle. Its a 1990 Ford > truck. I have always had carbs in the past. I have not driven this [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Forddriver > (no valid email) >3 things to check for... >Spark, compression and fuel. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >HTH, >Ben Thanks for the reply. I stopped at my mechanic and explained the situation. He asked me when this happened. I told him. He said "it was really foggy that morning". Yes, it was. He told me to go home and try it again. I did, and it started immediately. I called him back and he said that the fog was so bad that night and morning he could not keep up with the phone calls. He recommended changing my plug wires and dist. cap, and said I could bring it in the next day, or do it myself (he knows I so smaller repairs myself). I plan to change them when weather and my budget allows. Now I got another problem. Maybe someone can comment on this. Except during that fog problem, the truck runs well. However, every so often, it randomly goes into a very fast idle. I'm talking 2000 to 3500 RPM. This is most annoying if not dangerous. In fact it became dangerous the other day when I was hauling a load of hay on a wagon, and it went into this fast idle when I was on an icy gravel road. I ended up with a jacknifed wagon, and would have gone in the ditch if not for quick thinking where I shut off the engine and smacked the wagon against a large snow pile to stop it. This happens at random. I called my mechanic again. He said that he was swamped with work, but if I brought it there, he'd show me something on the engine. He showed me a Idle (something) device on the throttle part of the intake. He said it's a solenoid and they often stick. He suggested removing the two screws and wire, and either replacing it, or spraying PB Blaster into it, and reinstalling it. I did the PB Blaster thing, and it seemed ok at first, but its happening again. That thing does not seem stuck. He told me that there could be other causes, so I hate replacing parts that may not be bad. What else could be causing this? I've worked on a lot of cars, but I am new to Fuel Injection. Please advise !!!! Note: Tapping on the housing of that thing does not slow the engine down once it goes into that fast idle. He told me that usually helps. BTW: If you got here in the middle of this thread, this is a 1990 Ford F150 4WD pickup, Manual Trans. 302 F.I. engine. Thanks for all help >On Jan 8, 2:32 am, Forddri...@invalid.com wrote: >> I recently bought my first fuel injected vehicle. Its a 1990 Ford [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> Forddriver >> (no valid email) The part your mechanic was referring to is the IAC, Idle Air Controller. Rather than using an idle speed screw on a carb to adjust the minimum opening of the throttle plate, the IAC allows extra air into the throttle body to increase the idle speed, and the computer adds extra fuel thru the injectors to balance the mixture. If the IAC is stuck open, the engine will race. If you have a vacuum leak that's greater than the amount of air the IAC normally allows in, the engine will race (because the computer will close the IAC completely, and you still have too much air coming in thru the leak). On a 1990 truck, you're sure to have brittle or cracked vacuum hoses, including any larger hoses such as to the PCV valve or to the brake booster. Check them all, and replace as needed. Spray carb cleaner or direct propane gas around suspected leaks to see if the idle speeds up. And replace the IAC, it doesn't work forever. Bob >>3 things to check for... >>Spark, compression and fuel. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >>> Forddriver >>> (no valid email) Remove the IAC. plug both holes and start the engine. If it still races,. you have a vacuum leak. If it doesnt, replace the iac. HTH, Ben On Jan 13, 1:33 pm, Forddri...@invalid.com wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:09:55 -0800 (PST), "benteac...@gmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > >> Forddriver > >> (no valid email) >Remove the IAC. >plug both holes and start the engine. >If it still races,. you have a vacuum leak. >If it doesnt, replace the iac. >HTH, >Ben Thanks for the info. I have not found any bad vacuum hoses, although it's bery cold right now so I only looked quickly. I apprecaite this help because like I said, I hate replacing parts that are not bad. You said to plug BOTH holes. Where are these two holes? I know there is one under the IAC, which I saw when I removed it and sprayed it with PB Blaster. If there is 2 holes under there, I guess I didn't notice (it was cold that day too, so I was in a hurry). When the engine was racing, I pulled the electrical plug from the IAC and the engine killed. (if that means anything). BTW: What would be the easiest way to plug thee holes for the test? Thanks again >On Jan 13, 1:33 pm, Forddri...@invalid.com wrote: >> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:09:55 -0800 (PST), "benteac...@gmail.com" [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >> >> Forddriver >> >> (no valid email) >> Remove the IAC. >> plug both holes and start the engine. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > When the engine was racing, I pulled the electrical plug from the IAC > and the engine killed. (if that means anything). > BTW: What would be the easiest way to plug thee holes for the test? > > Thanks again FWIW, most of the problems I've noticed here (and my experience also) with IAC have been that the engines won't keep running. Time and again, cleaning the IAC has cured the problem (and saved some $$$). Check closely for vacuum leaks. >>> Remove the IAC. >>> plug both holes and start the engine. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >cleaning the IAC has cured the problem (and saved some $$$). Check >closely for vacuum leaks. What method did you use to clean the IAC? I am not going to replace it unless absolutely necessary. Do you know what they cost? I was quoted $110.00 I almost passed out.... >>> Remove the IAC. >>> plug both holes and start the engine. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >cleaning the IAC has cured the problem (and saved some $$$). Check >closely for vacuum leaks. OK guys, figure this out, please. It's been so damn cold that aside from looking for vacuum leaks (there were none), I could not work on it. I just had to use other vehicles most of the time, or deal with this thing racing. Remember, it was severely cold, at times it hit over MINUS 20 deg. most of the time it was around zero. We got a couple warn days when the temp went up to around 40 Above. That was my chance to work on it. But one problem. When the temp got to 40, the engine never raced and ran great. Since then, the temp went back down around zero, hit 15 below one day, but has been on the zero to 30 Above. Ever since we had those 40 above days, the engine has not raced since. Something had to be frozen, but what? This is just a thought. I am likely wrong, but what do you think? The in-tank fuel pump send the gas to the injectors (and associated parts). The way I understand it, any excess gas is returned to the tank. (Is that correct?). Obviously the supply gas lines worked, but what if the return line iced up? Would that cause excessive gas to the engine and cause it to race? Obviously any extra gas has to go somewhere. Does this make any sense? If not, what else could have frozen up? Thanks to all. There temps are in Farenhite (however thats spelled). Have you had a check engine light on the dash lit up? If not, put a new iac on. If so, get the codes read and get back to us. hth, Ben > When the engine was racing, I pulled the electrical plug from the IAC > and the engine killed. (if that means anything). > > BTW: What would be the easiest way to plug thee holes for the test? > > Thanks again >Have you had a check engine light on the dash lit up? >If not, put a new iac on. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Thanks again I almost always have a check engine light on, but the reason is because the oxygen sensor wires are ripped off. I knew about this, my mechanic said that in order to replace that sensor, I first need to replace the exhaust crossover pipe. That pipe alone is almost $300. It includes the Cat-convertor. This is mostly a farm truck, I am not going to spend a fortune on it, and to replace that exhaust and oxy sensor, I was quoted nearly $1000 (with labor). That's for a truck that cost me $600. My mechanic told me that on a truck as old as mine, running it without that oxy sensor is not really that critical. He said it would likely get a little better gas milage, but said it would take a long time to justify spending $1000. When the weather gets better, I have a friend who has a pipe bender and saaid he could make me a crossover for under $100. That I will do, but he said there wont be any holes in it for oxygen sensor. The truck does run pretty well, except for this racing. It's actually getting dangerous to drive. Yesterday I was on an icy road and the engine surged to 3000 rpm. I had to use the brake the whole time to hold it back. What gets me is that I can be sitting as a stop light. The engine is idling at 600 to 700 RPM (normal). I am not touching the gas pedal or doing anything. Suddenly the engine RPM will increase to somewhere from 2000 to 3000 RPM for no reason, it may shoot up quickly, or may just gradully rise. It will also come back down by itself, either come down partially, or all the way back to the normal idle. In 5 minutes of idling, it may do this several times. It does not get this fast idle until it's warmed up. When I first start it, it idles normally. I might have my mechanic put the code tester on it anyhow, if I can not find an actual leak. I can not drive it this way much longer. I have been driving my car the last few days and only using the truck for actual farm work. Forddriver@invalid.com wrote in news:uun4p35klk7av3chhp4psqh935krmangjo@ 4ax.com: >>Have you had a check engine light on the dash lit up? >>If not, put a new iac on. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > have been driving my car the last few days and only using the truck > for actual farm work. It takes almost nothing to drill a hole and add a bung to put the O2 sensor back on. You are running in limp home mode now, very inefficient and poor power. KB  SignatureTHUNDERSNAKE #9 Protect your rights or "Lose" them The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others >Forddriver@invalid.com wrote in news:uun4p35klk7av3chhp4psqh935krmangjo@ >4ax.com: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >sensor back on. You are running in limp home mode now, very inefficient >and poor power. KB But what good will it do when the pipe is patched together and leaks? That still dont solve the idle problem which is my #1 concern. Like I said in another post, come warm weather I am going to do what I can to go back to a simple carburetor engine without all this modern garbage which does nothing but make the parts stores wealthy by selling costly parts, and make the dealers wealthy because people cant repair their own cars. I have a full size station wagon with carburetor. It's a Chevy, but the engine is the same size (5 liter). I get better milage with the carburetor. This fuel injection stuff is garbage. I have been driving cars with carburetors for about 40 years and they were easy to fix and dependable. Now I got this complicated pile of junk with enough unneeded parts to melt down and build a second vehicle, and it's always acting weird in some manner. The last feul injected vehicle I owned had the in tank fuel pump die, and would have cost 5 times what I paid for the car to repair. I junked that car. If all this complicated emissions junk actually made a significant increase in gas milage, and really did reduce pollution at the same time, I might feel differently about it. By the way, this truck did NOT have this idle problem when I bought it, this just started a week or two ago. The O2 sensor has been broken off since I bought the truck, so that is not the cause of the idle problem. > But what good will it do when the pipe is patched together and leaks? Fix the pipe so it doesn't leak. > That still dont solve the idle problem which is my #1 concern. Probably easily solved if proper diagnostic procedures were applied. > Like I said in another post, come warm weather I am going to do what I > can to go back to a simple carburetor engine Why stop there? Hitch an ox to the front of it. > without all this modern > garbage which does nothing but make the parts stores wealthy by > selling costly parts, Yeah, selling spark plugs every 100,000 miles is much more profitable then selling them every 15,000 miles. > and make the dealers wealthy because people cant > repair their own cars. Nonsense. The only thing stopping these "people" is their lack of initiative. > I have a full size station wagon with > carburetor. It's a Chevy, but the engine is the same size (5 liter). > I get better milage with the carburetor. Now -there's- an apples to apples comparison. > This fuel injection stuff is > garbage. Actually, it's the best thing since grandpa Jaeger invented the bread slicer. > I have been driving cars with carburetors for about 40 years > and they were easy to fix and dependable. It's 2008, carburetors went out 20 years ago. > Now I got this complicated > pile of junk with enough unneeded parts to melt down and build a > second vehicle, and it's always acting weird in some manner. You really need to look under the hood of the last carbureted trucks Ford offered, talk about complicated unneeded junk... > The last > feul injected vehicle I owned had the in tank fuel pump die, and would > have cost 5 times what I paid for the car to repair. I junked that > car. Repairs should be somehow indexed to what someone payed for a vehicle? > If all this complicated emissions junk actually made a significant > increase in gas milage, and really did reduce pollution at the same > time, I might feel differently about it. If you have evidence that emissions controls don't work, I'd like to see it so I can refute and debunk all of it. > By the way, this truck did NOT have this idle problem when I bought > it, this just started a week or two ago. The O2 sensor has been > broken off since I bought the truck, so that is not the cause of the > idle problem. Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked up to make the idle go berserk. If there's a pattern here, it's that you buy junk and then wonder why you wind up with junk. >Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked >up to make the idle go berserk. > >If there's a pattern here, it's that you buy junk and then wonder >why you wind up with junk. My goodness!! Aren't you the helpful sort. P >>Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked >>up to make the idle go berserk. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > P He is being honest. there is no reason to want a carb back when every aspect of fuel inj. is better other than it is not the same to trouble shoot. He probly doesn`t know how to fix the carb stuff either but there are less parts to throw at it and get lucky. I would bet I am not that much younger than the orgional poster if at all, but I knew right away fuel inj was going to be better and started to learn the differences. He is lazy or just feels like bitching. KB PS I farm also so he`s got nothing to whine about that I don`t have either. If your going to farm with junk you better know how to fix it. You can`t afford to farm it out. SignatureTHUNDERSNAKE #9 Protect your rights or "Lose" them The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others > >Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked > >up to make the idle go berserk. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > P Do you honestly think that 'I can't' had anything to do with anything ever being accomplished? >> >Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked >> >up to make the idle go berserk. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Do you honestly think that 'I can't' had anything to do with >anything ever being accomplished? Here's the way things should work. Fix it, because you know how. Or take the time to learn how - do the research and ask questions to fix it. Or pony up and take it to someone who does know how and pay attention to how. When you have a dangerous situation, fix it or get it fixed. This news group is a very good place to ask questions. If someone has possible answers, then great. Otherwise, leave the judgements under your hat. What shouldn't be done is hand out snarky responses because that merely demonstrates ones own inability to help. I can ask questions here for the stuff that I've forgotten or am unfamiliar with. There is no expectation that I will get a 'correct' answer. I give answers for the things I know. And yes. Maybe the original poster is just looking for a place to vent. Shoving a carb on an injected engine will only cause other problems and likely wind up costing more than the cost of the correct repair. (think about where your going hang that carb's fuel pump) And someone else is also right. When you own junk, grab a coffee, smoke em if you got em and think about getting rid of that junk and buying newer junk. Take a deep breath and walk it off. This is a news group about vehicles sight unseen. P It is a bit ironic that the most famous believer of 'man is the cause of glaobal warming,' was VP when his admistration did nothing about it when the Senate voted against adopting the treaty. LOL >>> >Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked >>> >up to make the idle go berserk. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > P > It is a bit ironic that the most famous believer of 'man is the cause of > glaobal warming,' was VP when his admistration did nothing about it when the > Senate voted against adopting the treaty. LOL And how do you know he did nothing? >>>>> Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked >>>>> up to make the idle go berserk. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> P >>> >Should be easy enough to backtrack and figure out what you f.cked >>> >up to make the idle go berserk. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >P Yes, I am venting somewhat. I have never had problems fixing carburetor vehicles. I fixed them and kept them running way beyond their expected life span. I only got rid of them when the engine totally blew, transmission died, or in the case of one vehicle, the frame got so bad the car actually collapsed in the middle. Now I got this frikkin thing. It has a good frame, manual transmission (which is what I wanted), I replaced all the brakes and the whole front shafts for the 4WD, plus some other minor repairs. It ran good, I did not do anything to "f.ck it up" as someone else said. I just drove it, and I do not abuse vehicles. This idle problem started about 2 weeks ago. Whether this has anything to do with the zero degree weather we are having is still a question I have. Anyhow, if this dangerous situation occurred on a carburetor, it would be a simple matter of turning a screw to slow the idle, or else applying some lube to the linkage. At worst, rebuilding the carb, and I've done plenty of them. Yes, the O2 sensor is broke, and the exh. pipes are bad. When the weather warms, I planed to fabricate some sort of pipe, and see if I could somehow stick an O2 sensor on it. I KNOW what needs to be done there. It's NOT knowing what is causing this idle problem that is bugging me. I took it to my machanic yesterday. He said he can run the full diagnostics on it, but it will be costly, because he said that on a 1990, the code analyzers wont show anything. He said that he would have to start measuring voltages and testing all the different controls, and went on to say that although he originally thought it was the IAC, if the idle keeps going up and down (surging) on it's own, it's more likely something else. He suggested unplugging the wire from the IAC, and said that the idle will no longer surge, but it might want to kill and be harder to start. He understands I am not willing to spend a fortune on it. So, for now I will try that, and I might just take this truck to the next auction and get rid of it, and see if I can find an older carbureted truck that still has a decent body and frame. I looked at it thoroughly, and can see to change this to a carb would mean a new intake manifold, fuel pump would have to be an electric add-on type, and I'm sure there would be issues with the distributor advance and would need a vacuum advance distributor, which makes me wonder if there would be one to fit. I guess the best solution is to do what he told me to avoid anymore accidents because of this idle problem and get it to the next auction to sell. One acccident from this is enough. I dont recall if I mentioned it, but that damn idle kicked up to 3000 rpm when I was pulling a trailer with 5 tons of hay on an icy road. When I let out the clutch to slow the truck down, the loss of the 4WD caused the trailer to jackknife and push me off the road. Luckily I was able to steer it into a crop field roadway ending up in the field, rather than the ditch. So yes, I am a bit frustrated with the g-damn thing, and then I think how easy it would be to lube the linkage or turn the idle screw on a carburetor engine, and I begin to get really pistoff. Maybe I'm just old, but it seems every frikkin thing these days has to be made as complicated and irritating as possible. These computers are another prime example, but I wont get into that. I like my old Win98 computer and would not trade it for one of these new fangled POS with vista if it was absolutely free. Thanks > >Do you honestly think that 'I can't' had anything to do with > >anything ever being accomplished? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > attention to how. When you have a dangerous situation, fix it or get > it fixed. No mention of pissing, moaning and whining. > This news group is a very good place to ask questions. If someone > has possible answers, then great. He got possible answers, check the IAC, check for vacuum leaks, etc. Did he do any of that? Complained about the IAC being $110.00, guess he never heard of a junk yard. > Otherwise, leave the judgements > under your hat. I shall not when someone spends more effort complaining then they do actually trying what has been suggested here. > What shouldn't be done is hand out snarky responses > because that merely demonstrates ones own inability to help. He got help. I could describe for him step by step how to diagnose the problem, it would be a wasted effort though because he wouldn't make the effort. > I can ask questions here for the stuff that I've forgotten or am > unfamiliar with. There is no expectation that I will get a 'correct' > answer. I give answers for the things I know. This isn't about correct answers. I take his grousing as a defeatist attitude. Pointless to offer help when he's already made up his mind... > And yes. Maybe the original poster is just looking for a place to > vent. Shoving a carb on an injected engine will only cause other > problems and likely wind up costing more than the cost of the correct > repair. (think about where your going hang that carb's fuel pump) Craig's List has a place for rants and raves... > And someone else is also right. When you own junk, grab a coffee, > smoke em if you got em and think about getting rid of that junk and > buying newer junk. > > Take a deep breath and walk it off. This is a news group about > vehicles sight unseen. Vacuum leaks, Checked the same way as if it were a carburetor. TPS voltage, Three wires, about as complicated as an 1157 bulb. Erroneous input to the PCM (i.e., power steering switch), A simple open or closed switch, easily checked with an ohm meter. Worn throttle bushings/shaft; Easy visual check. The most likely causes of run away idle on a Ford truck. NONE of them take any exotic equipment to test. That was about the best post I've seen here. > Here's the way things should work. Fix it, because you know how. Or > take the time to learn how - do the research and ask questions to fix [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > P How difficult is it to change a Fuel Injected engine to a carburetor. The more I mess with this fuel injected engine, the more I hate it. Going back to a pre-fuel injection vehicle means getting something that's pretty old, and thus rusty and falling apart. Yet, I am finding that fuel injection is going to cost me a fortune for repairs. The cost of the parts are outrageous. I am a DIY guy, and am finding myself spending half my paycheck to pay a mechanic, and they dont always solve the problem until several trys. Rather than going back to an old rusty vehicle, I'd rather just remove the fuel injection and install a carburetor from an older Ford engine. How feasible is this? Otherwise, it looks like my only other option would be to rebuild and older carbureted engine, and change the whole engine, removing all the emissions garbage in the process (which is not inspected where I live). It used to be so easy to work on the old engines. As long as the engine block itself was working, it meant that either the carburetor or fuel pump was dead (fuel problem), or it was the coil, distributor, points (or module), or spark plugs (ingition problem). These days there is so much garbage it seems the mechanics can not fix them without numerous trys and spending a fortune. Thanks > How difficult is it to change a Fuel Injected engine to a carburetor. > The more I mess with this fuel injected engine, the more I hate it. Not impossible, whether the effort is worth it is up to you, It would depend on how much you'd need to fabricate. I'd suggest you see if you can get on some decent tuning software/ scanner for your motor and get onto some good tuning forums. A good scanner will tell you a lot about your vehicle's state. HTH SignatureTerminal_Crazy Mitch - 1995 Z28 LT1 M6 terminal_crazy@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk Lancashire England http://www.sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk/terminal_crazy/ > How difficult is it to change a Fuel Injected engine to a carburetor. > The more I mess with this fuel injected engine, the more I hate it. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Thanks Makes me want to opt for a moped when I buy my next vehicle. |
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