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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / April 2008Driving With Two Brakes
What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said there was a leak in the rear wheel cylindar, which was causing brake fluid to go onto the brake shoes, causing there to be no rear brakes. She declined to have it repaired because of the cost. How dangerous is it to drive with front brakes only? Seems to me that the brakes could lock up or the car could spin or something like that if one has to stop suddenly when driving at freeway speeds. Any input is appreciated. Oh, the car is a VW Golf, about 10 years old. Thanks! > What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when > my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks! What's more interesting is that when you get brake fluid on the shoes, a tiny bit of moisture will cause them to grab, and lock-up, with very little pedal pressure. Could just be a damp day that does it. And of course if enough fluid leaks out, that half of the master cyl. will go dry, and if its a diagonally-split system, there will be only 1 front brake working. The car won't pass inspection, so tell the her to pay up and fix it before there's an accident. Dave (former mechanic, former licensed NYS vehicle inspector) >What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when >my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Oh, the car is a VW Golf, about 10 years old. About 60% braking on front and 40% on the rear. As in another post, fluid on the shoes may grab or may slip depending on how much crud and water get in there. In the car event the car be involved in an accident, you may be liable for all costs if the brake's precondition come to light. Not fixing faulty brakes is just plain foolish. P Licenced Automotive Mechanic (red seal) Licenced Heavy Equipment Mechanic (red seal) Former automotive instructor Correction to the below. The rear brakes are drum brakes, not brake shoes. > What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that > when my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks! >Correction to the below. The rear brakes are drum brakes, not brake shoes. Correction to the above. The rear brakes are brake shoes - with drums that happen to use the shoes. Or maybe it's the drums that use the shoes. If you have to make this kind of 'correction', just how clueless are you? And please post where this car is likely to driven so that I and other readers can avoid it. P > If you have to make this kind of 'correction', just how > clueless are you? And please post where this car is likely to driven > so that I and other readers can avoid it. I'm pretty clueless. That's why I come here for help, and I appreciate the assistance I get from the nice people here. But, hey, at least I don't feel the need to tear people apart with sarcasm, right? Peace to you. >What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when >my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >brakes could lock up or the car could spin or something like that if one has >to stop suddenly when driving at freeway speeds. Any input is appreciated. IMO it's idiotic. At some point the condition may become bad enough that the pedal goes to the floor when braking. Sure, as a split system it's possible to pump and still have front brakes. If a shop is charging 'too much' just replace it yourself. It's not that hard to replace a wheel cylinder and shoes. It will require learning how to bleed brakes (not that hard) and maybe a couple special drum brake tools to make the job easier. (not that one can't do it with regular tools, it's just not as easy) An additional note re. this. The reason this came to light was because my son's emergency brake wasn't holding the wheels. He brought it in, asking them to adjust the emergency brake, and they told him that the reason the emergency brake wasn't working was because of brake fluid that was leaking out of the rear cyclinders. (They said that one cyclinder was leaking a little, and another was leaking a lot.) > What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that > when my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks! > An additional note re. this. The reason this came to light was because my > son's emergency brake wasn't holding the wheels. He brought it in, asking > them to adjust the emergency brake, and they told him that the reason the > emergency brake wasn't working was because of brake fluid that was leaking > out of the rear cyclinders. (They said that one cyclinder was leaking a > little, and another was leaking a lot.) Considering it's a mechanical hand brake mechanism, fluid (or lack thereof) isn't going to do anything, unless both rears are so contaminated the brake shoes won't hold in the drums. Seems unlikely. Cost to fix? What's a running car worth? How much would it cost to replace the car with one that has working brakes? And for the love of all that's holy, don't let him drive the thing on public roads in that condition - the rest of us would rather get home alive. Him driving the car is not just a danger to him, but to others. Which puts a point on this query - what kind of parent lets their kid drive around in a car where the primary safety system is not operating correctly??? E.P. > Considering it's a mechanical hand brake mechanism, fluid (or lack > thereof) isn't going to do anything, unless both rears are so > contaminated the brake shoes won't hold in the drums. > > Seems unlikely. I guess that was the impression that they gave -- that there was fluid on the shoes, and, therefore, neither the emergency brake nor the rear brakes (which, apparently, share the same shoes) were functioning because they couldn't grip the drums. So, if that's the case, that brake fluid on the rear shoes wouldn't stop the emergency brake from working; and, therefore, there's a different cause of the problem with the emergency brake; is it possible that these people are just yanking our chain, and there's nothing wrong with the rear brakes at all? I guess I should have someone else look at them. > Cost to fix? What's a running car worth? How much would it cost to > replace the car with one that has working brakes? And for the love of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > point on this query - what kind of parent lets their kid drive around > in a car where the primary safety system is not operating correctly??? I spoke with his mother after speaking to the mechanic and after posting here. Apparently, she was unaware that the rear brakes were not working. She said, one, the place didn't tell her it was an unsafe situation. And, two, she said she thought the emergency brake had a different brake shoe than the rear brake. Thus, until I spoke with her, she thought the situation was restricted to only the emergency brake, and not the rear brake itself. I was going to post another question, asking if it was OK to allow him to drive it for a week or two until she could get the money to fix it, since the front brakes are working, and he hasn't noticed any problem with stopping. Your above statement seems to answer that question, though. Thanks, Neil > I spoke with his mother after speaking to the mechanic and after posting > here. Apparently, she was unaware that the rear brakes were not working. She > said, one, the place didn't tell her it was an unsafe situation. And, two, > she said she thought the emergency brake had a different brake shoe than the > rear brake. Thus, until I spoke with her, she thought the situation was > restricted to only the emergency brake, and not the rear brake itself. Why would you expect the average woman to know how car brakes work ? Graham >> I spoke with his mother after speaking to the mechanic and after posting >> here. Apparently, she was unaware that the rear brakes were not working. She [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Why would you expect the average woman to know how car brakes work ? Well, since the failure condition is indicated to the driver via an IDIOT LIGHT, there is no need to understand how they work. We also know that this woman's intelligence level is somewhere below "idiot."  Signature"Dave's not here, man!" - Tommy Chong > Well, since the failure condition is indicated to the driver via an > IDIOT LIGHT, there is no need to understand how they work. Re. idiot light, the complete situation was that the car was leaking brake fluid. They brought it into the shop and found there was a leak in the brake line in the front of the car, which they repaired. That stopped the leak and stopped the light from coming on. Right now there's no light that's coming on, just some fluid leaking out of the rear wheel cylinders into the drums. But not enough for the light to go on. > > An additional note re. this. The reason this came to light was because my > > son's emergency brake wasn't holding the wheels. He brought it in, asking [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Seems unlikely. That's exactly what happens. The friction material loses its friction when saturated with brake fluid. It is an oil of sorts after all ! Graham On Apr 5, 1:40 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > An additional note re. this. The reason this came to light was because my > > > son's emergency brake wasn't holding the wheels. He brought it in, asking [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's exactly what happens. The friction material loses its friction when > saturated with brake fluid. It is an oil of sorts after all ! You aren't really this dumb, are you? Even oil-soaked shoes will provide SOME friction. Enough to hold the car? I have no idea. Best not to test the condition empirically, methinks. E.P. > On Apr 5, 1:40 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Enough to hold the car? I have no idea. Best not to test the > condition empirically, methinks. Considering many parking brakes are marginal to begin with, leaking brake fluid could easily make them next to useless. I ran my Jeep, which had a leaking axle seal at the time, through the brake tester at work, and on that wheel I had half the brake force compared the the other wheel. I know differential oil has different characteristics, but still... > E.P. Ulf > > On Apr 5, 1:40 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > and on that wheel I had half the brake force compared the the other > wheel. I know differential oil has different characteristics, but still... Considering the mass of the Golf, and the quality of the handbrake system, it's not a given that the handbrake won't work. E.P. >> > An additional note re. this. The reason this came to light was because my >> > son's emergency brake wasn't holding the wheels. He brought it in, asking [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >That's exactly what happens. The friction material loses its friction when >saturated with brake fluid. It is an oil of sorts after all ! It would depend on the design of the back plate and drum I would guess. The wheel cylinder that went on me last year was discovered in part by 'what's that puddle'. The shoes never got any brake fluid on them. It just went along the back plate through the over lap with the drum and down to the ground. I would think it possible for the parking brake to slip because of contamination, but it would be unlikely IMO... then again the car may have a drum brake design that any leaking brake fluid goes on to the shoes. >An additional note re. this. The reason this came to light was because my >son's emergency brake wasn't holding the wheels. He brought it in, asking [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> Thanks! Driving without all the brakes working properly is like holding a loaded and cocked gun to your head and playing with the trigger. A safe driver would take the car home and park it as soon as a leak was found. Then they would slowly drive it to a repair shop. Otherwise they would not use the vehicle. Apparently you are not a safe driver. If you want to commit suicide, feel free, but why take another life with you? Brakes are one of the easier things to fix on a car. Go spend the $20 to buy an auto repair manual, spend another $50 to $100 on brake shoes and cylinders, and fix it yourself. I'm sure if you ask around the neighborhood there's some guy who is handy with cars who would help you in trade for a good dinner. Otherwise, sell your computer to help pay to have a mechanic do the job for you. At least no lives will be lost. You can also get drawings and repair info on autozone.com. Click on "Repair Info" on the left. Then click on "Vehicle repair guides". Enter the year make and model of your car, click on "brakes" and you can get all sorts of useful help and drawings. If you insist on driving without proper brakes, please tell all of us what city and state you live, and describe your vehicle so we can all avoid you. TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt > Driving without all the brakes working properly is like holding a > loaded and cocked gun to your head and playing with the trigger. A [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > what city and state you live, and describe your vehicle so we can all > avoid you. Well, since I just found out about the situation today, I think you can ease up a bit. And, not being familiar with how cars worked, I asked here, rather than just ignoring the situation. So ease up on the personal attacks, OK? Unless you feel the need to attack people, in which case nothing I say will make a difference anyway. Letterman made the point here: > Brakes are one of the easier things to fix on a car. Go spend the $20 > to buy an auto repair manual, spend another $50 to $100 on brake shoes > and cylinders, and fix it yourself. The car repair shop wanted $110 to make the repair. If the above is the approximate cost of the parts, and if they charge something like $70/hr for labor, then that tells me that there's no way they were planning on replacing the shoes, but only the cylinders. Which raises one of two possibilities: Either: 1) This shop doesn't know what they're doing, since they weren't going to replace the shoes. Or: 2) The amount leaking on the shoes is so minimal that they didn't feel the shoes needed to be replaced (which, if that were the case, raises the question of whether their assertion that the emergency brake wasn't working because of fluid leaking onto the brakes was correct in the first place). Either way, very curious that the total cost was only $110. > Letterman made the point here: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Either way, very curious that the total cost was only $110. Neil, Get a second opinion, something doesn't sound quite right. In any case if the rear brakes really aren't working you DON'T want your son or anyone else driving the thing until it's fixed. I've driven cars and had the brakes go out and while it's VERY exciting it's not a ride I recommend to anyone, and while I was lucky it can come out VERY badly. As a wise man once said, "If you can't stop, don't go". Jeff DeWitt > Get a second opinion, something doesn't sound quite right. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Jeff DeWitt Thanks, Jeff. Good advice. >Letterman made the point here: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Either way, very curious that the total cost was only $110. OK, I wont get on your case anymore since this just happened, but please get it fixed. I am basing the price on the cost to replace parts in a full sized car. Maybe VW parts are cheaper. Brake shoes for my 89 full size Chevy were around $30 (for both wheels), cylinders around $15 each. That's $60, plus a can of brake cleaner to clean the drums ($5) and some brake fluid ($3). Total $68 to do the job myself, and about 2 hours labor. The shoes CAN be cleaned with brake cleaner, but if they are saturated, it's better to replace them. For $110 I'd ask them what they plan to replace, and if you're not a mechanic and dont have the tools, let them do the job. That sounds reasonable and fair. If they can do it in one hour at $70, (which is a reasonable amount of time for a well equipped garage), then the parts are $40. Like I said, I dont know what parts cost for a VW. ASK THEM what they plan to do. Mechanics have machines that will disolve grease that us backyard mechanics can not do with spray cans at home. One other thing. Us backyard mechanics often end up replacing the brake lines because they break when getting them off the cylinders. The mechanics have special wrenches and torches to loosen them. Spend the $110 and be done with it. That sounds like a fair price to me. For that price, I'd likely take it to the shop myself since it's only $40 more than what I paid for parts. > What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when > my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks! If you drive slow and supplement the front brakes with transmission braking, you'll be fine - as long as the front brakes don't spring a leak too. Big thing is drive slow. > > What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when > > my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > braking, you'll be fine - as long as the front brakes don't spring a > leak too. Big thing is drive slow. That is by far the stupidest thing you have EVER said here. I just hope that you don't live in Texas. >What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when >my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Thanks! If he's going to keep the car, get it fixed, **ASAP** and keep the car off the road untill it is repaired. If your ex won't pay for it, pay for it yourself (ASSuming that your son doesn't have the funds to pay for the job himself). IIRC, one of the purposes of dual systems is incase one system fails while in motion (such as suddenly developing a leak and losing all fluid on that side) you still have *some* braking available to bring the car safely to a stop. You say that the rears are not working and fronts are. Don't wait for the fronts to fail and an accident to occur. GET IT FIXED! Oh, and for the love of Allah, pay no mind to what that idiot, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS," said. -- S&DDAM admits to putting others in danger with its beater: "Foot pumps are a joke. I had one once and since the piston only moves like 2 inches it took 50 pumps to raise the pressure by one psi. Go with the hand pumps where the piston moves around 15 inches. One of my tires has exposed cords and i have to pump it up every week. " --Speeders & Drunk Drivers Are MURDERERS, 3/6/08 Ref: http://tinyurl.com/yvrmhl Msg ID: Xns9A59DDA463296riemann1850yahoocom@216.168.3.70 > What are the dangers of driving with two brakes? I just found out that when > my ex-wife took my teenage son's car in to be repaired last week, they said [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Oh, the car is a VW Golf, about 10 years old. Well for starters there will be TWO rear wheel cylinders, one one each side. Do they mean just one side was faulty ? It's not really hard to fix this as a DIY job quite frankly if you have any reasonable level of practical skills. The bits won't be that expensive. Graham |
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