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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2008New battery, car still dead as doornail
Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car, and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc. Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same kind that came in car when new). I did accidentally install it backwards (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post), got some sparks, but the battery is now securely connected. The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged. But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing. Ideas? > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ideas? LOL!!! Yeah, how about a complete over haul on your electrical system. new EMC, Radio, clock etc.. If you're lucking, you could of simply blown some fuses .. http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5" >Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean >under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Ideas? Do you have a schematic of the electrical system? Connecting the battery backwards will blow electronic gizmos and some steering diodes. 1990 is late enough to have an engine computer and that may be toast. But check fuses . . . a large fuse on the battery wiring may not look like a fuse at all (that's another place a schematic comes in handy). There could be a "fusible link" (piece of wire) designed to blow in the event of a backwards connection. Sometimes physically close to the alternator. With the battery in backwards, there's a high current from the battery through the alternator diodes to ground (they are forward biased in that case, with nothing but the small resistance of wiring to limit current). Start there.  Signature----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > Do you have a schematic of the electrical system? Connecting the > battery backwards will blow electronic gizmos and some steering > diodes. 1990 is late enough to have an engine computer and that may > be toast. Believe it or not I have once stupidly done the same (just brushed the terminals thankfully) but it seems everything was reverse protected. Graham >> Do you have a schematic of the electrical system? Connecting the >> battery backwards will blow electronic gizmos and some steering [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Graham I knew a guy who did that to a company truck - just long enough to fry one or two diodes - from that moment on the charging indicator would glow dimly all the time but otherwise it ran OK. Signature----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > Believe it or not I have once stupidly done the same (just brushed the > terminals > thankfully) but it seems everything was reverse protected. Yeah, I did it to <sheepish grin> on my Toyota Celica GT about 20 years ago. In a dimly lit parking garage at K-Mart late one night when I needed a battery. No damage other than blowing the fuse that controlled my the motors on my flip-up headlights (although headlights still worked, just pointed straight down). Flipped it around and the car was A-OK. Did make some sparks as I recall and I did feel exceedingly stupid for not being more careful. > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ideas? Check all your fuses first and replace the ones that are blown. If you replace all the blown fuses and still have problems you may have damaged some electronics. >> Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean >> under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > replace all the blown fuses and still have problems you may have damaged > some electronics. Thanks, I just checked some of the pertinent fuses and, unfortunately, they are okay. I wonder if replacing the lead clamps might make a difference. They're pretty clean, but are old enough to vote!:) This car is a good old boy and I hate to trash it. >>> Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean >>> under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > This car is a good old boy and I hate to trash it. Follow the positive battery cable away from the battery, it should go directly to the main fuse which should be around 60 - 100 amps. It should be blown, replace it. If it doesn't pull out you may have to unbolt it from underneath. If you have no power at all you still have a blown fuse or fusible link. > Follow the positive battery cable away from the battery, it should go > directly to the main fuse which should be around 60 - 100 amps. It should > be blown, replace it. If it doesn't pull out you may have to unbolt it > from underneath. If you have no power at all you still have a blown fuse > or fusible link. Main fuse? This one is not in the little box with the rest of the fuses? >> Follow the positive battery cable away from the battery, it should go >> directly to the main fuse which should be around 60 - 100 amps. It should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Main fuse? This one is not in the little box with the rest of the fuses? Roger, not with the little bitty fuses but something much larger or piece of wire designed to open with over current. Signature----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >>> Follow the positive battery cable away from the battery, it should go >>> directly to the main fuse which should be around 60 - 100 amps. It [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Roger, not with the little bitty fuses but something much larger or > piece of wire designed to open with over current. AOK, thanks a bunch. I'll do a little investigation on this tomorrow. Thanks to you too, Andy and Mike, and Dave.. \ > >Main fuse? This one is not in the little box with the rest of the fuses? > > Roger, not with the little bitty fuses but something much larger or > piece of wire designed to open with over current. Yep, the infamous "fusible link" looks just like any other wire BUT it's a selected length and gage (you DON'T want to replace it with any other gage of wire!). And, don't just casually replace the three inches that burned up. You gotta replace the whole eight inches, or it will die again, soon. DAMHIKT. > > Follow the positive battery cable away from the battery, it should go > > directly to the main fuse which should be around 60 - 100 amps. It should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Main fuse? This one is not in the little box with the rest of the fuses? Not all cars are the same. Don't worry. Graham Mike wrote:> > Follow the positive battery cable away from the battery, it should go > directly to the main fuse which should be around 60 - 100 amps. It should be > blown, replace it. If it doesn't pull out you may have to unbolt it from > underneath. If you have no power at all you still have a blown fuse or fusible > link. And follow the damn NEGATIVE connections all the way to the engine block too. I know one lass whose negative connection to the block was relying on the accelerator cable. Come deep winter and more cranking amps, the cable blew like a fuse ! And I'd warned that as a recent secondhand purchase it needed a good look over for any potential sillies but girls just can't think that way it seems, you know the "but it was working" mentality. Graham You need to get a mechanic who understands how to read a voltmeter and diagnose the problem. I cannot diagnose a problem when the only facts known are " I put the battery in backwards now it don't work". >>> Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean >>> under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > This car is a good old boy and I hate to trash it. >>> Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean >>> under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > This car is a good old boy and I hate to trash it. Nope... The battery clamps are probably OK. There is a chance that the heavy cable from battery negative to chassis (or engine), or the cable from battery positive to the starter or starter relay is loose. Check the connections on the other end of those wires. If they're tight and clean (not corroded), then they are likely not the problem. That said, there's a 99.97% chance that you've damaged the car's electronics (computers). Your ECC (Engine Control Computer) is the guy that controls almost everything under the hood. If he's dead, then your car is essentially dead. Haul or tow the car to a *qualified* service facility for a thorough diagnosis. If it's the ECC, make sure your Master Card and/or Visa are in good standing. Judging from your description of events, the car might be beyond economical repair. SignatureDave M MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the address) Experience: What you get when you don't get what you want > There is a chance that the heavy > cable from battery negative to chassis (or engine), or the cable from battery > positive to the starter or starter relay is loose At least one other person here has some brains. The symptoms are classic. Graham > Nope... The battery clamps are probably OK. There is a chance that the > heavy cable from battery negative to chassis (or engine), or the cable [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > good standing. Judging from your description of events, the car might be > beyond economical repair. Regarding your original problem, as others have suggested, a bad ground (-) connection at the battery or where the battery cable is bolted to the car's frame would cause the symptoms you described... intermittent non-starting, dim instruments. Or a ground fault elsewhere. Ground faults are a bastard to diagnose, they could be caused by a wire's insulation having rubbed off, a poor connection, a broken solder joint, corrosion inside a wire's insulation which can't be seen. I have worked extensively on older cars' electrical systems, and it takes some serious patience AND LOTS OF TIME generally. I'm not saying that it definitely won't be a quick fix, just mentally set yourself up for the long haul. That's why people in the know shudder when you start talking about an intermittent ground fault problem... and that's why it's generaly at least a few hundred bucks when you bring your car to an auto electric specialist. As far as hooking up the battery backwards, you can get a pretty good indication of whether it's electronics or wiring by doing some simple tests. Honk the horn. Turn on the headlights. These are generally both NOT wired through the ignition module or ECC and should work if the battery is good and the wiring is intact. If they DO work, that means any fusible link or main fuse is fine, and that your problem is most likely with your ECC or, hopefully, a fuse which controls the ECC. You can often buy salvaged ECC's from online junkyards, you need to be EXTREMELEY SPECIFIC with the model number... pull yours out and job down the exact model number. Different models and/or years of the same car have different engines or features that the ECC controls, so they are very specific to the particular year and model of vehicle. Andy writes: I had a similar problem with a Hyundai Accent. Exactly the same symptoms as low low battery OR corroded battery terminals... A hydrometer said the battery was OK, a voltmeter said the battery and the terminal connections were OK, fuses were OK, and I was stumped UNTIL I saw some small copper bits on the driveway....... It seems that mice or squirrels had made a little space for themselves beside the battery and there was a wire in the way so they just chewed it out to make more room. Fortunately, they had left enough lead at the connector that I could splice/solder in a jumper to repair the missing 3 inch section. I never did find out which wire it was since once the problem was fixed I lost interest. I THINK, however, that it went from the positive battery terminal to the fuse box, but I can't be sure. So, you may have some missing wire sections. This has happened to me in this car, my truck, and twice in ,my motorhome. Mice and/or squirrels.... Good luck. Andy in Eureka, Texas >[...]bought [a] battery[...] I did accidentally install it backwards As has been said: high probability electronic items are smoked. >[...]the battery is now securely connected. >[...]no power whatever, clock dead, nothing. I start with the lights, then try lights+horn. A voltmeter is a pretty lousy tool for troubleshooting this (well, after an initial check of the battery). The light-bulb probes they sell in auto parts departments are better for this--or you can make your own with any auto bulb. Unlike a voltmeter, because these PULL SOME CURRENT, they are really good at sorting out a YES from a NO from a MAYBE. You can also tell Pass/Fail out of the corner of your eye. Clip the lead hanging out the end to a part of the body and start probing with the point. When you stop seeing it light up, back up. If you can't get anything from the body to the + post of the battery, the ground connection from the battery is open. > >[...]bought [a] battery[...] I did accidentally install it backwards > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > If you can't get anything from the body to the + post of the battery, > the ground connection from the battery is open. Start out by seeing if the headlights light, that will tell you if there is at least some connection between the battery and the rest of the system > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > kind that came in car when new). I did accidentally install > it backwards Oh - oh ! > (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post), > got some sparks, but the battery is now securely connected. > The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged. > But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing. The earth strap bonding the engine to chassis is probably open. Graham > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same > kind that came in car when new). Unless the original battery was shot (and even if wasn't charging well that's probably because there were only a few strands left of the earth strap), let's hope they'll take it back then. I made just the same mistake when an earth strap failed on a car of mine. Halfords took it back though. Graham I would check that the connections are on taught. What you are describing is the alternator is probably not properly charging the battery. Sometimes when a battery in a car goes bad, it also takes the alternator with it. There are times when the alternator goes first and damages the battery because it overcharges the battery and then goes shorted from overheating. Some vehicles have an external voltage control or management module. This should also be changed along with the alternator. A professional mechanic always runs a test on the alternator when replacing the battery. If the alternator is defective, you may have to replace the battery again if the battery was damaged. Jerry G. > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ideas? > I would check that the connections are on taught. What you are > describing is the alternator is probably not properly charging the > battery. No is isn't. > Sometimes when a battery in a car goes bad, it also takes the > alternator with it. Just how ? > There are times when the alternator goes first and > damages the battery because it overcharges the battery and then goes > shorted from overheating. He's only driven to the edge of his plot FFS ! I'm 99.9% certain it's a broken earth strap. You can usually check easily with a heavy duty jump lead placed between some good (unpainted) contacts points on the engine block and car chassis, re-making the connection, unless it's further back the chain right at the battery (but unlikely). Graham >I'm 99.9% certain it's a broken earth strap. You can usually check easily with a >heavy duty jump lead placed between some good (unpainted) contacts points on the >engine block and car chassis, re-making the connection, unless it's further back >the chain right at the battery (but unlikely). > >Graham When you hook up the battery backwards (the OP did) it doesn't cause the "earth strap" to break. It burns out the fusible links or blows fuses and maybe even cooks some electronic components. Steve B. > >I'm 99.9% certain it's a broken earth strap. You can usually check easily with a > >heavy duty jump lead placed between some good (unpainted) contacts points on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > When you hook up the battery backwards (the OP did) it doesn't cause > the "earth strap" to break. I didn't say it did. The OP says it failed to re-satrt long before he fitted the replacement battery. Did you even bother to read the post properly ? Graham > It burns out the fusible links or blows > fuses and maybe even cooks some electronic components. Never cooked any for me, but it was just a brief touch. Wouldn't have given the alternator diodes too long to live. Graham > >I'm 99.9% certain it's a broken earth strap. You can usually check easily with a > >heavy duty jump lead placed between some good (unpainted) contacts points on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the "earth strap" to break. It burns out the fusible links or blows > fuses and maybe even cooks some electronic components. Alternator diodes are a good possibility. And many other more expensive things if they were not polarity protected. > Steve B. > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ideas? "Refer all servicing to qualified personnel" So far in my life I've had a total of 3 car batteries that simply went open circuit, presumably from a failed internal connection. In all cases simply replacing the battery (and verifying the charging system) was all that was needed. Fortunately I got the polarity right the first time. The other 2 got changed at Sears but worked anyway. Also in all cases everything operated normally until it died when trying to start. "Normally" included no dim lights, sluggish starter motor, etc. G² so now that you have the battery in correctly, are you getting 13.2 volts across it? that would be a good place to start. > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster > at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car, > and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual > click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc. 2c guess/question, has the starter motor stuck up? my 92 mazda van just occassionally has the starter motor latch up (no noise), So I tap the side with a hammer via a 3' rod (well, it is buried weel underneath) and all is hnky dory. >Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean >under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster >at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car, >and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual >click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc. Sounds good. It would be a good idea to check the voltage with a meter when running and not running so you know if it's just the battery or something else, but that would indicate the battery. >Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same >kind that came in car when new). I did accidentally install [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Ideas? If you are lucky, you have just blown the fusible links on the battery lines. More likely you have blown some fuses too. Worst case you've blown the alternator, ECU, and a bunch of sensors with the reverse polarity as well. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged. > But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing. It WAS the main fuse (80 A). The box that contained this thing was right in front of my eyes practically the whole time, next to battery ..DUHHHHHH Car is now its usual chipper self! THANKS! > Ideas? "Cleo Frank" wrote: 1990 Mazda Protege I accidentally connected my new battery backwards (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post), got some sparks. It is now correctly connected, but no power whatever, clock dead, nothing. ___________________________________________ Update (for anyone interested). Problem discovered It WAS the main fuse (80 A). The box that contained this thing was right in front of my eyes practically the whole time, next to battery ..DUHHHHHH Car is now its usual chipper self! THANKS! ____________________________________________ Those of us who post here always enjoy hearing whether our advice or opinions helped solve a problem. Thank you for taking the time to report back. Rodan. You blew the fuse links (not regular fuses), and prolly the ECM and assorted other cotrollers. Have fun. JR > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ideas? Signature-------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth :Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean :under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] : :Ideas? See message #3246 (and onwards) here http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee99794/3237 Bloke did something similar - he connected a battery charger in reverse. Your car is probably similarly afflicted - ie. blown 100A fuse. > Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean > under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ideas? Blown fusible link. SignaturePaul Hovnanian paul@hovnanian.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Have gnu, will travel. Just how dead are doornails? Come to think of it....... What the hell is a doornail anyhow? > Just how dead are doornails? > Come to think of it....... > What the hell is a doornail anyhow? Try Searching the net.... Too Lazy? Try here; http://www.thefreedictionary.com/doornail :) - Tim - |
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