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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / November 2008Ford's new hybrids go 47 mph on electric power alone
Ford's new hybrids go 47 mph on electric power alone Richard Truett Automotive News October 30, 2008 - 12:01 am ET DETROIT -- The hybrid versions of the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan sedans that start production in December should give drivers who like electric cars a nice jolt. The sedans will be able to reach a top speed of 47 mph on electric power alone -- twice as fast the current Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner hybrid crossovers -- and can travel as far as eight miles on battery power before the gasoline engine engages. In a preview of the two vehicles today, Ford executives gave reporters a close look at the two vehicles and explained how they work. They also showed a smaller but more powerful battery pack that will cost less than the one now used in the Escape, Mariner and Mazda Tribute crossovers. These two hybrid sedans may be the most technically sophisticated regular production vehicles Ford Motor Co. has ever made. They feature: . An electric air conditioning system that keeps the car cool even when the gasoline engine is off . A multilayered powertrain information system that uses two programmable screens on either side of the speedometer to "coach" the driver on how to get better fuel economy . A smaller but more powerful nickel-metal hydride battery pack that uses a simpler cooling system than the one Ford developed for its first hybrids, the Escape and Mariner . A new energy management system that varies the voltage to the electric motor and battery pack for more efficient operation. Best in class Nancy Gioia, Ford's director of sustainable mobility and hybrid programs, said the hybrid versions of the Fusion and Milan will deliver best-in-class fuel economy. "We are at least 5 mpg better than the Toyota Camry Hybrid in city driving, and we'll beat Camry on the highway," she told reporters. Ford did not give the EPA figures for the Fusion and Milan hybrids, but the EPA rates the Camry at 33 mpg city and 34 highway. Ford says both cars will be able to travel more than 700 miles in the city on one tank of gasoline. The engine for the Fusion and Milan hybrids is a 155-hp, 2.5-liter four-cylinder mated to a continuously variable transmission. When the Fusion and Milan reach full production next year, Ford aims to double its annual output of hybrid vehicles from 25,000 to 50,000. Ford executives would not say how many Fusions and Milans would be built, but the Fusion will make up the majority of production, said J.D. Shanahan, chief engineer for the Fusion and Milan. Eye on profit The boost in production coupled with the new battery pack could enable Ford to turn its first profits on hybrids. In the past, Gioia has said the path to profitability for hybrids is to boost volume while reducing the cost of components. The new battery pack uses 17 percent fewer cells yet is 20 percent more powerful than the batteries in the Escape and Mariner. It also is 23 percent lighter and uses 30 percent less space than the pack now in the Escape and Mariner hybrids. A new cooling system also is less expensive. Instead of using the vehicle's air conditioner to keep the batteries cool, the new pack uses air from the car's interior. Ford also showed other versions of the 2010 Fusion and Milan. A new performance-oriented model of the Fusion, the Sport, will offer a 3.5-liter V-6 engine rated at 263 hp. All versions of the 2010 Fusion and Milan will offer six-speed transmissions. The four-cylinder entry-level versions will be available with either a six-speed automatic or a six-speed manual. The V-6 versions will come with a six-speed automatic only. Shanahan said all versions would deliver class-leading or class-competitive fuel economy in their segments. >The new battery pack uses 17 percent fewer cells yet is 20 percent >more powerful than the batteries in the Escape and Mariner. It also is >23 percent lighter and uses 30 percent less space than the pack now in >the Escape and Mariner hybrids. Anybody know how long the batteries in the hybrids last on average and how much they cost to replace? Here in the Arizona desert even good quality lead acid batteries often fail in less than 2 years. I'm guessing that you could buy a lot of gas with the cost of one hybrid battery replacement. >>The new battery pack uses 17 percent fewer cells yet is 20 percent >>more powerful than the batteries in the Escape and Mariner. It also is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >guessing that you could buy a lot of gas with the cost of one hybrid >battery replacement. The nimh batteries used in hybrids will outlast a lead acid battery by a significant margin. They are more expensive, but dollars per mile will likely be VERY close by the time the average battery set needs replacement. >The nimh batteries used in hybrids will outlast a lead acid battery by >a significant margin. You missed my point. I wondered if the Arizona heat would kill the hybrid batteries as it does the lead acid batteries. I did a little Googling. Turns out the current hybrid batteries can take the heat much better than lead acid batteries. Sources: http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html#cold http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-6.htm >They are more expensive, but dollars per mile >will likely be VERY close by the time the average battery set needs >replacement. US$2500 battery replacement cost. Ouch. Source: http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2008/10/toyota-hybrid-battery-replacement-costs.html >>The nimh batteries used in hybrids will outlast a lead acid battery by >>a significant margin. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Source: >http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2008/10/toyota-hybrid-battery-replacement-costs.html Right - but the history of very low NiMH Hybrid Battery failures so far shows they should be good for "the life of the car" - a good 15 to 20 years. We've been driving them for what, 7 or 8? Consider that the cost of replacing the battery pack is no more expensive than having the automatic transmission rebuilt on a conventional car, people do that all the time rather than scrap the car. And by then they can install a "Gen III" battery pack and go another 15. Or you have hit the class of 'Beater Car' and it gets scrapped when the battery dies, the engine is getting tired and the body rusts out... When you hit the point of needing the second battery pack in 30 to 40 years, then you are getting into the realm of 'Collector Cars' and the survivors might get some TLC and a rebuilt engine, etc. And with any luck by then Hybrids will be common enough that they trust the advanced shade-tree mechanic to work on his own car, and the info and tools will be widely available instead of a carefully guarded State Secret. You still have to be careful to not fry yourself - it's the same level of danger as twenty gallons of gasoline in the tank, just a slightly different list of Things You Shall Do and Shall Not Do. --<< Bruce >>-- >the history of very low NiMH Hybrid Battery failures so >far shows they should be good for "the life of the car" ... They apparently do have a low failure rate, but where? That was my original question. Does that low rate also apply to a car living in the desert heat all it's life? > Consider that the cost of replacing the battery pack is no more >expensive than having the automatic transmission... True, but in one of these cars you now have to worry about *both* the transmission and the hybrid battery failing. > When you hit the point of needing the second battery pack in 30 to >40 years, That would be nice but I have my doubts when I can't even get my cell phone battery to last 2 years...apples and oranges, I know. Still, call me skeptical... > >the history of very low NiMH Hybrid Battery failures so > >far shows they should be good for "the life of the car" ... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > phone battery to last 2 years...apples and oranges, I know. Still, > call me skeptical... It's not apples and oranges. The cell battery and the hybrid battery are the exact same technology. And I agree with you, the claims that NiMH will last 20 years are utter bullcrap. I use NiMH batteries regularly in different electronic devices. They last about as many recharge cycles as NiCads. Their advantage is that they are not as environmentally damaging as NiCads and they have a higher voltage per cell. The hope is that if hybrids get popular that the large number of batteries needed will introduce economies of scale that will drive down the price. Even today you can get replacement NiMH batteries for your cell phone from Chinese retailers for a quarter of the cost of just buying them out of a cell phone kiosk in the mall in the US. And if you buy them by the thousand from China you can get them for a few bucks a battery. The automakers know that bad press about NiMH hybrid battery life will likely kill widespread deployment of hybrids, so for the time being they are going to spend a lot of money replacing traction batteries under very long warranties. Once the price per battery drops to the $500 range you will see those long warranties disappear. What really is needed is someone to design a hybrid that uses a charge jar, like a large Leyden jar, and takes the generated AC voltage and steps it up into the 100,000 volt range, then feeds it into the charge capacitor. Ted >The cell battery and the hybrid battery are >the exact same technology. They may be both batteries, but certainly not the same technology. A modern cell phone uses a lithium-ion battery. A current hybrid uses a nickel-metal hydride battery. Apples and Oranges... >Their advantage is that they [batteries] are not as environmentally damaging... I'd like a hybrid that I could plug in and take advantage of my nuclear power generated electricity for short trips, and then kick in the gas engine if needed for longer trips. No exhaust for in town driving should help the pollution (environment) also.. >>The cell battery and the hybrid battery are >>the exact same technology. > >They may be both batteries, but certainly not the same technology. A >modern cell phone uses a lithium-ion battery. A current hybrid uses a >nickel-metal hydride battery. Apples and Oranges... That, and you are always trying to stretch your cellphone battery life, running it down to dead regularly, some people let them sit dead for a day or two before noticing... The car battery packs are kept in a tighter range of charge. >>Their advantage is that they [batteries] are not as environmentally damaging... > >I'd like a hybrid that I could plug in and take advantage of my >nuclear power generated electricity for short trips, and then kick in >the gas engine if needed for longer trips. No exhaust for in town >driving should help the pollution (environment) also.. But if you don't have a charging point at your day destination, you let the car sit partially discharged. And that's not good for the batteries. That's why the current hybrid cars don't want people modifying their cars into plug-in hybrids on their own, because the carmaker is still on the hook for the battery warranty. Well, until they void the warranty for the customer modifications, but that generates real bad publicity if they do it too often. --<< Bruce >>-- >you are always trying to stretch your cellphone battery >life, running it down to dead regularly, Lithium-ion batteries (in cell phones and laptops) are smart batteries in that they won't allow full discharge. They are designed to shut down before damage occurs. So running your cell phone until it shuts off shouldn't hurt it, although that might be rough on the conversation in progress. As an aside some lithium-ion batteries have not been so smart recently and have caught fire (both phones and laptops) even when the device is not in use. That would certainly be a surprise if you happen to carry the phone in your pocket... 8-O > But if you don't have a charging point at your day destination, you >let the car sit partially discharged. It's back to battery design then. Until they can perfect battery technology to allow you to cruise around town on electricity, we will continue to need excessive oil and create unnecessary pollution... > >>The cell battery and the hybrid battery are > >>the exact same technology. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > modifying their cars into plug-in hybrids on their own, because the > carmaker is still on the hook for the battery warranty. A plug in hybrid would be better for the battery, assuming the mods are done right. The battery doesen't care that it's getting electricity from the engine or the wall outlet. The reason they haven't introduced plug in hybrids yet is because of all of the negative publicity by a bunch of losers in the United States against electric cars. All you have to do to convert a plug in hybrid to an electric car is add more batteries and disable the engine - it's a very short intellectual jump from a plug in hybrid to an electric car. This is the same reason they haven't introduced turbo diesels into passenger cars in the US even though it is better engine technology, and widely used in other countries. Ted > >The cell battery and the hybrid battery are > >the exact same technology. > > They may be both batteries, but certainly not the same technology. A > modern cell phone uses a lithium-ion battery. A current hybrid uses a > nickel-metal hydride battery. Apples and Oranges... The Nokia model 5100, 6100, 2110, 2120, 2160, 3210, 3210e, 3320, 252, 252c, 8810, 8860 models use NiMH Many other cell phone models do as well. Ted It would not matter! If you tried to sell a car that needed a tranny, or a battery pack, that cost $4,000, there will be few buyers at our door LOL >>the history of very low NiMH Hybrid Battery failures so >>far shows they should be good for "the life of the car" ... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > phone battery to last 2 years...apples and oranges, I know. Still, > call me skeptical... That statement in NOT correct, removal and installation costs are NOT included at that price, nor is the disposal free. The TOTAL cost of REPLACEMENT is closer to $4,000, at a Toyota dealership. >>The nimh batteries used in hybrids will outlast a lead acid battery by >>a significant margin. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Source: > http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2008/10/toyota-hybrid-battery-replacement-costs.html >>The new battery pack uses 17 percent fewer cells yet is 20 percent >>more powerful than the batteries in the Escape and Mariner. It also is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >guessing that you could buy a lot of gas with the cost of one hybrid >battery replacement. Several comments: 1. Nobody really knows how long the big NiMH batteries will last, because they haven't really been around for long enough to have seen all of the relevant failure modes. 2. The NiMH packs will at least deal better with the heat than open-cell lead-acid batteries. They won't have the issue with electrolyte evaporation. 3. If you are losing batteries on a regular basis in the heat, buy a hydrometer and use it every month or so! You will find that in the desert heat your battery loses water, and you are going to have to keep topping it off with distilled water to keep the specific gravity correct. If you just use tap water, or you just fill them to the mark without checking the gravity, your battery won't last long. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >3. If you are losing batteries on a regular basis in the heat, Most everybody in a desert city (I'm in Phoenix) has poor battery life. In summer on 115F+ degree days (we have several a year) the temperature over the parking lot surface can be 130 degrees and under the hood 140 degrees. (Inside the closed car it can reach 150 degrees.) Garaged cars fare better but even my garage goes well over 100 degrees in the daytime summer months. >buy a hydrometer and use it every month or so! I've used sealed batteries for years now. They came with the car when new and of course the specified replacements are also sealed. However I've been here for 60 years now and even when I was young and broke and was careful to keep the battery topped off there was no difference. You just expected to replace the battery on warranty every year or so... >> 3. If you are losing batteries on a regular basis in the heat, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > difference. You just expected to replace the battery on warranty every > year or so... Most of those 'sealed' batteries are only sealed so you have to buy a new one when they boil low. Planned obsolescence at work. You 'can' still cut the seals and make them the opening type so you can top them up. It works very well. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com >Most of those 'sealed' batteries are only sealed so you have to buy a >new one when they boil low. The dealer buys my new batteries, generally one or two during the warranty. Fortunately battery testing during routine service catches them before they strand me. >Planned obsolescence at work. You 'can' still cut the seals. As I said I did keep them topped off when I had open batteries in the past, and still the same battery life. The heat failures I'm talking about are not from lack of water... > >Most of those 'sealed' batteries are only sealed so you have to buy a > >new one when they boil low. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > past, and still the same battery life. The heat failures I'm talking > about are not from lack of water... No, they are not. We have relatives down in AZ and they all have to go through this. Standard open-cell lead acid 100 month lead batteries cost what, $60 from a retail auto parts place? So in AZ after 3 years they are dead, you replace them and get $30 back on the warranty as a credit to the new $60 battery. The battery manufacturers love AZ. Everyone down there buys a new battery every 3 years, at $30 a pop that's a good revenue stream. Ted I do not live in AZ, but will add that the heat related failures (100 F plus degrees ambient summer temp) that I have personally observed on my last 3 Sears Die Hard (7-year) batteries were not from lack of electrolyte/distilled water. In my case, all 3 went completely open circuit and registered zero volts with a digital meter. I suspect that one of the internal connections from the plates to the battery post must have mechanically failed for this to happen. By the way, the battery worked great right up till the moment of failure. It also would not take a charge either, further suggesting the open circuit condition. These failures occurred over the last 10-15 years, so it appears that whatever the failure mode, it has not been addressed by the manufacturer. I agree with the OP that heat is especially hard on an automotive lead acid storage battery. Keeping the water level up is likely to prevent premature failure due to sulphation, but did not appear to prevent the failures I've experienced. Bob >> >Most of those 'sealed' batteries are only sealed so you have to buy a >> >new one when they boil low. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Ted Take a closer look and you will discover the battery is not really "sealed." The cover can be pried off and it can be topped off IF needed ;) >>3. If you are losing batteries on a regular basis in the heat, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > difference. You just expected to replace the battery on warranty every > year or so... The last time I looked up the dealer price of a Pruis battery pack it was near $4,000 at bit less than the ordinal price of $5,000. Batteries are the Achilles heel of ALL todays hybrids. At some point one will need to spend thousands to replace the battery pack. That does not bode well for resale value, at some point down the road as well for the buyer. Personally I would not buy one of today's hybrids because the premium one needs to pay, to drive one home, will buy ALL of ones gasoline for a similar sized and equipped conventionally powered car for two or three years. >>The new battery pack uses 17 percent fewer cells yet is 20 percent >>more powerful than the batteries in the Escape and Mariner. It also is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > guessing that you could buy a lot of gas with the cost of one hybrid > battery replacement. > The last time I looked up the dealer price of a Pruis battery pack > it was near $4,000 at bit less than the ordinal price of $5,000. > Batteries are the Achilles heel of ALL todays hybrids. At some > point one will need to spend thousands to replace the battery pack. > That does not bode well for resale value, at some point down the > road as well for the buyer. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/57o4ot - price is $2,070.94. I can't imagine the labor is more than another $500. > Personally I would not buy one of today's hybrids because the > premium one needs to pay, to drive one home, will buy ALL of ones > gasoline for a similar sized and equipped conventionally powered car > for two or three years. Back before the gasoline price spike, Toyota was selling Prius' pretty cheap. My SO's parents bought one for about the same as a similarly equipped Camry (they actually planned to buy the Camry, but bought the Prius when the salesman gave them the price). I know it is smaller inside, but it is not a lot smaller. They rave about the car all the time. When gas was $4 they were looking awfulyl smart. With gas back down to around $2, I'd no so much - but still they average well over 40 mpg. Only time will tell if the battery cost comes back to bite them. I think not. Ed put a solar panel on the moon roof please. open it to see the sky and feel the air and cool off when convenient. close it for parking and recharging in the sunlight. top off the battery while watching a matinee or going shopping. great family fun ... the kids will love it. sumbuddie wear blind sea :) > Ford's new hybrids go 47 mph on electric power alone > put a solar panel on the moon roof please. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > top off the battery while watching a matinee or going shopping. SO, tell me, does the dollar value of the electricity generated from the solar panel exceed the cost of repainting the car because of premature paint failure caused by not garaging it? Your not going to generate a lot of electricity in the garage. Ted Actually you would need to tow one hellava large trailer with enough solar panels to power a very small car for a just a few miles, all the while hoping it did not get cloudy. The solar panels I had installed on my home in Key West to (help) heat the hot water cost nearly $29,000 LOL > put a solar panel on the moon roof please. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> Ford's new hybrids go 47 mph on electric power alone > Actually you would need to tow one hellava large trailer with enough solar > panels to power a very small car for a just a few miles, all the while [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > >> Ford's new hybrids go 47 mph on electric power alone > Actually you would need to tow one hellava large trailer with enough solar > panels to power a very small car for a just a few miles, all the while > hoping it did not get cloudy. > > The solar panels I had installed on my home in Key West to (help) heat the > hot water cost nearly $29,000 LOL Good grief, Mike, how much was it costing you to heat your water? What happened to your logic expressed earlier above about not buying a hybrid because it's more economic to buy gasoline for a non-hybrid. Seems for $29K you could buy an awful lot of electricity to heat water. Tell me about it. Previously I used NG, not electricity, and 29K would buy MORE than ALL of the NG I could use in my lifetime, I'm 82. I have tons of money but only one wife, keeping her happy was the reason. My wife is one of those environuts that thinks we can save the world. ;) On Nov 1, 2:14 pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote: > Actually you would need to tow one hellava large trailer with enough solar > panels to power a very small car for a just a few miles, all the while > hoping it did not get cloudy. > > The solar panels I had installed on my home in Key West to (help) heat the > hot water cost nearly $29,000 LOL Good grief, Mike, how much was it costing you to heat your water? What happened to your logic expressed earlier above about not buying a hybrid because it's more economic to buy gasoline for a non-hybrid. Seems for $29K you could buy an awful lot of electricity to heat water. > Tell me about it. Previously I used NG, not electricity, and 29K would buy > MORE than ALL of the NG I could use in my lifetime, I'm 82. I have tons of > money but only one wife, keeping her happy was the reason. My wife is one > of those environuts that thinks we can save the world. ;) Thank you for that, Mike. I understand fully now. Hope I make it to 82....11 to go. All the best. |
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