Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / May 2005
cartoon: improving the electric car
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bluebuck@grinningplanet.com - 21 May 2005 13:43 GMT Members of this group may enjoy this cartoon. :-)
Options Car Manufacturers Are Considering to Improve the Viability of the Electric Car
See it at http://www.grinningplanet.com/goo-toon/electriccar.htm
More jokes/cartoons at http://www.grinningplanet.com/goo-toon/more.htm
Al Bundy - 21 May 2005 13:54 GMT Just my opinion, but those jokes are lame. I think somebody is making a bad attempt at humor in order to generate traffic.
Edward Green - 21 May 2005 15:39 GMT > Just my opinion, but those jokes are lame. > I think somebody is making a bad attempt at humor in order to generate > traffic. While working for a patent attorney, an inventor submitted, I swear this is true, an idea for an electric car with a propeller on top which recharged the batteries, hence obviating the need for any external power source.
That was a funnier joke than the ones I see here.
Jose El-Martinez - 21 May 2005 16:52 GMT I am an Electrical Engineer. Without any adavanced education, with basic highschool knowledge one must be utterly dumb to submit such "inventions". This basic law is taught in like 4th (?) grade in Russia, I dont know about here but it's one of the three major laws of phsyics - law of energy conservation. Energy is NOT created, it is just transformed from one form into another, a propeller just takes energy from your gasoline engine and when it returns into electricity some is lost due to frction, etc. losses so this is idiotic. Your propeller loads gasoline enginine with additional load due to increased aerodynamic resistance, a stupid thing on your roof makes for a great extraload on engine, while your enigine is losihng fule to help propeller rotatte it's not restroed through electrical motor in fact you lose some.
What's th epoint of losing fuel?? Isn't yopur purpose to save fuel? SO you waste gas on propeller which powers electrical motor, why nmot just save gas and run on gas all the time?
The Hybrids use regenartyive braking because breaking energy is wasted anyway because most people are compulsively hiotting gas pedals and then brake at the next traffic light and this waste goes one and one because we're all humans and want to show others the speed and dont let anyone pass us on a city street, and blah... so accelerate/brake is a wasteful cycle, Hybrids extract some savings from it by converting braking waste into recharging current for the battery, as of propeller it's the same as this:
Plug a battery charger into your household outlet and charge some batteries, then use battery while proclaiming to the world you're getting FREE energyu what Bull sheeeite, dodnt you take energy off your househol AC??
mjt - 21 May 2005 18:04 GMT ("Jose El-Martinez" <Marco_Dantes@hotmail.com>) scribbled:
> a propeller just takes energy from your gasoline engine and > when it returns into electricity some is lost due to frction, etc. ... maybe they were hoping that the propeller is spun up by the wind passing through it, much how a windmill works to pump water, right? i'm assuming this, of course, since i have no idea what the "designer" submitted to the patent office.
 Signature << http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com () >> "Murphy's Law, that brash proletarian restatement of Godel's Theorem ..." -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
Edward Green - 22 May 2005 00:43 GMT > ("Jose El-Martinez" <Marco_Dantes@hotmail.com>) scribbled: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > since i have no idea what the "designer" submitted to the > patent office. It's in the attorney's interest to submit something, or he doesn't get paid. That sounds like a plausible out! All I know is, after explaining it was nonsense, my opinion was no longer solicited on this case.
Fred McGalliard - 24 May 2005 21:57 GMT Wind powered cars. Over 50 years old idea works wonders. See Ice sailers. (a small cat like sail boat with ice blades instead of a hull.) Similar wind sailers have been done on desert sand using large tires. There was an old story about one built from a wagon and a ships sail. But I think that was just a fanciful story.
#! rnews 1553 Xref: xyzzy rec.autos.misc:147304 rec.autos.tech:406307 sci.energy:131266 sci.environment:396277 sci.physics:885490 Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment,sci.physics,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.misc Path: xyzzy!nntp From: "Fred McGalliard" <frederick.b.mcgalliard@boeing.com> Subject: Re: cartoon: improving the electric car X-Nntp-Posting-Host: e056750.nw.nos.boeing.com Message-ID: <IH0IEF.5Jo@news.boeing.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 14 Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Organization: The Boeing Company X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 References: <1116679554.055816.32610@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1116686531.927574.129230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <8j44m2-1ai.ln1@sirius.athghost7038suus.net> <1116719729.157427.177940@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <d6on06$grs$2@rainier.uits.indiana.edu> <Kq2ke.98301$G16.5667874@phobos.telenet-ops.be> <ba4ke.118002$h6.107885@tornado.texas.rr.com> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:01:27 GMT
...
> capitalism, free market, etc.. when you become an american citizen, then you
> can voice your opinion on how other americans live their lives. I don't know about that. I was never asked to prove my citizenship before I told yall what I think, about this country, or any other for that mater. Cripes. Pretty soon he'll be telling me I have to live in Texas to complain about it.
The Ghost In The Machine - 21 May 2005 18:00 GMT In sci.physics, Edward Green <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> wrote on 21 May 2005 07:42:11 -0700 <1116686531.927574.129230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>> Just my opinion, but those jokes are lame. >> I think somebody is making a bad attempt at humor in order to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That was a funnier joke than the ones I see here. Shhh. Don't tell that to "feerguy9". That was one of his proposals, along with an impossible "electrocapacitor" idea that's even dumber than the fully-battery-powered automobile. (He wasn't quite dumb enough to suggest that it would fully recharge the electrocapacitor, but that's dumb enough.)
Personally, I'd hope for a more efficient, lighter engine, or, given the reciprocating piston that we know today, a continuously variable transmission that maxes out the efficiency. It might sound funny, but it should save gas. The batteries in a hybrid do improve efficiency, to a point, but that merely illustrates that the current reciprocating-piston engine or the transmission needs improvement.
If we're extremely lucky we might get a car a la _Hard Sell_. As described it was based on fusion power and could break the sound barrier.
I'm not all that hopeful, though we have broken the sound barrier, AIUI.
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net It's still legal to go .sigless.
Edward Green - 22 May 2005 00:54 GMT > In sci.physics, Edward Green > <spamspamspam3@netzero.com> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > merely illustrates that the current reciprocating-piston > engine or the transmission needs improvement. I was just musing today on the incredible irony of the fact that it was the attempt to legislate gas mileage for passenger cars which spawned the abominable passenger _truck_ (SUV), which loopholes out the law. Of course if the political will were there, the loophole would be closed -- but it isn't, so good intentions have made things worse, surprise.
> If we're extremely lucky we might get a car a la _Hard Sell_. > As described it was based on fusion power and could break the > sound barrier. Bitch to control. I was just rooting for the Chrysler concept "turbine car" of the 60's, which sported jet exhaust. I think one of the problems was that the exhaust was liable to ignite anything directly behind the vehicle, as well as melting the asphalt.
By the way (don't let the other guys hear this, or they will make fun of me) -- the link which started this thread was a goddamn BROWSER HIJACKER -- which I was dumb enough to click on.
Daniel J. Stern - 22 May 2005 02:10 GMT > I was just rooting for the Chrysler concept "turbine car" of the 60's, > which sported jet exhaust. I think one of the problems was that the > exhaust was liable to ignite anything directly behind the vehicle, as > well as melting the asphalt. That's a funny joke (if you're in 4th grade, which is just about the last time it's considered clever and funny to make stupid sh.t up just for giggles). The turbine cars neither ignited anything behind them nor melted any asphalt. The persistent bugaboo was NOx emission control. It could probably be rather easily done today, but when the plug was pulled on turbine car development in 1982, Chrysler had about $0.04 to its name.
Bill Putney - 22 May 2005 02:42 GMT >>I was just rooting for the Chrysler concept "turbine car" of the 60's, >>which sported jet exhaust. I think one of the problems was that the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > giggles). The turbine cars neither ignited anything behind them nor melted > any asphalt... He must've been thinking of the Harrier aircraft (which I saw burn a hole in a runway when it hovered too long at an air show).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')
calcerise@hotmail.com - 22 May 2005 21:19 GMT One can comfortably dry one's hands a foot from the exhaust of a fourth gen Chrysler Turbine Car at idle, and on K-1 kero the smell isn't even a problem. As the power pedal is advanced, you will move away promptly, but you won't be burned. Peak EGT is probably 350 degrees, and would only be reached if you were at full power. Deliberately damaging pavement would be tough even if you tied the car to a lightpole and tried to pull it out of the ground for a long time. Under way, it would never be an issue.
Al Bundy - 24 May 2005 00:48 GMT > > I was just rooting for the Chrysler concept "turbine car" of the 60's, > > which sported jet exhaust. I think one of the problems was that the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably be rather easily done today, but when the plug was pulled on > turbine car development in 1982, Chrysler had about $0.04 to its name. I remember seeing them come off the Davison X-Way sometimes. While turbines have their own emissions problems, I read that one of the main reasons the program halted was that the government emission standards would not budge from the recipricating engine standard to allow promising technology to develop. That's just another way of saying what you said I guess.
Al Bundy - 24 May 2005 00:51 GMT > > I was just rooting for the Chrysler concept "turbine car" of the 60's, > > which sported jet exhaust. I think one of the problems was that the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably be rather easily done today, but when the plug was pulled on > turbine car development in 1982, Chrysler had about $0.04 to its name. I remember seeing them come off the Davison X-Way sometimes. While turbines have their own emissions problems, I read that one of the main reasons the program halted was that the government emission standards would not budge from the recipricating engine standard to allow promising technology to develop. That's just another way of saying what you said I guess.
Gregory L. Hansen - 22 May 2005 02:22 GMT >I was just musing today on the incredible irony of the fact that it was >the attempt to legislate gas mileage for passenger cars which spawned >the abominable passenger _truck_ (SUV), which loopholes out the law. >Of course if the political will were there, the loophole would be >closed -- but it isn't, so good intentions have made things worse, >surprise. In the DC area gas prices are around $2.40. According to a TV news snippet, people are driving less, plan to stay closer to home for vacations, and some of them say fuel prices are a real economic hardship.
SUVs may have loopholed through the mileage laws, but you can't loophole out of economics.
>> If we're extremely lucky we might get a car a la _Hard Sell_. >> As described it was based on fusion power and could break the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >of me) -- the link which started this thread was a goddamn BROWSER >HIJACKER -- which I was dumb enough to click on. Don't worry, we'll keep it between you and us.
 Signature "In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd
CWatters - 22 May 2005 17:28 GMT > In the DC area gas prices are around $2.40. WOW half price gas!....
Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices....
Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48 Norway Oslo $6.27 Italy Milan $5.96 Denmark Copenhagen $5.93 Belgium Brussels $5.91 Sweden Stockholm $5.80 United Kingdom London $5.79 Germany Frankfurt $5.57 France Paris $5.54 Portugal Lisbon $5.35 Hungary Budapest $4.94 Luxembourg $4.82 Croatia Zagreb $4.81 Ireland Dublin $4.78 Switzerland Geneva $4.74 Spain Madrid $4.55 Japan Tokyo $4.24 Czech Republic Prague $4.19 Romania Bucharest $4.09 Andorra $4.08 Estonia Tallinn $3.62 Bulgaria Sofia $3.52 Brazil Brasilia $3.12 Cuba Havana $3.03 Taiwan Taipei $2.84 Lebanon Beirut $2.63 South Africa Johannesburg $2.62 Nicaragua Managua $2.61 Panama Panama City $2.19 Russia Moscow $2.10 Puerto Rico San Juan $1.74 Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91 Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78 Egypt Cairo $0.65 Nigeria Lagos $0.38 Venezuela Caracas $0.12
mjt - 22 May 2005 17:45 GMT ("CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be>) scribbled:
> Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91 > Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78 > Egypt Cairo $0.65 > Nigeria Lagos $0.38 > Venezuela Caracas $0.12 ... what's rwong with those prices?
 Signature << http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com () >> It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. -- Bertrand Russell
JazzMan - 22 May 2005 18:57 GMT > ("CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be>) scribbled: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ... what's rwong with those prices? Not much. Most people in Venezuela, Nigeria and Egypt make only a few dollars a day, at best, so even sub-dollar gas is fairly expensive. Also, the gas sold in those countries is probably really poor quality, with low octane and no additive packages to keep injectors clean for instance.
JazzMan
 Signature ********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry **********************************************************
Paul E. Bennett - 22 May 2005 18:27 GMT > Venezuela Caracas $0.12 If you don't like the price in your own country you know where it is much cheaper.
 Signature ******************************************************************** Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk> Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 Going Forth Safely ....EBA. http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/ ********************************************************************
JazzMan - 22 May 2005 18:57 GMT Of course, what most twits fail to realize is that there is no meaningful public transportation infrastructure in the US, due in part to the spread out nature of the population that occurred because cheap fuel allowed living far away from city centers. In countries with high gas prices most people can easily get around on relatively inexpensive, state-subsidized public transportation and hence there's not nearly as much need to rely on and use cars, and burn gasoline. So, comparisons of fuel prices is pretty much in itself meaningless unless you include a context to frame it in. Gas could be $50 a gallon but if the average family only had to use 5% of their net income to buy gas for normal activities then it would be cheaper than, say, me having to use 17% of my net income to do my normal daily driving.
JazzMan
> > In the DC area gas prices are around $2.40. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Nigeria Lagos $0.38 > Venezuela Caracas $0.12
 Signature ********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry **********************************************************
Morituri-|-Max - 22 May 2005 19:27 GMT >> In the DC area gas prices are around $2.40. > > WOW half price gas!.... > > Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... Waah... in OUR country they ARE terrible.. if you don't see fit to complain about the gas in your country don't presume to tell people who DO complain when it starts getting high what they can or cannot do. It's called capitalism, free market, etc.. when you become an american citizen, then you can voice your opinion on how other americans live their lives.
Gregory L. Hansen - 23 May 2005 00:42 GMT >> In the DC area gas prices are around $2.40. > >WOW half price gas!.... > >Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... For someone driving an hour each way in something that gets 18 miles per gallon, that's about $20 per day for fuel, $400 per month. Imagine the poor sap commuting in the Hummer H2 at about 10 mpg.
People are driving (marginally) less, SUV owners are reconsidering their purchase... what in the world makes you think I'm complaining? I commute by bicycle on a busy road, I'd be more than happy to see the size and number of vehicles decrease.
 Signature "When the fool walks through the street, in his lack of understanding he calls everything foolish." -- Ecclesiastes 10:3, New American Bible
CWatters - 23 May 2005 07:09 GMT > People are driving (marginally) less, SUV owners are reconsidering their > purchase... what in the world makes you think I'm complaining? I commute > by bicycle on a busy road, I'd be more than happy to see the size and > number of vehicles decrease. Sorry and thanks for doing your bit.
Daniel J. Stern - 23 May 2005 03:28 GMT > Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... > > Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48 > Norway Oslo $6.27 <snip a whole bunch of other countries>
What's your point? Other countries's citizens allow their governments to steal from them at a greater rate than US citizens do.
Morituri-|-Max - 23 May 2005 07:15 GMT >> Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What's your point? Other countries's citizens allow their governments to > steal from them at a greater rate than US citizens do. Amen to that.
CWatters - 23 May 2005 19:27 GMT > > Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What's your point? Other countries's citizens allow their governments to > steal from them at a greater rate than US citizens do. So I take it you don't think taxation should be used to fight global warming then?
Perhaps those countries that create the most greenhouse gasses per head of population should take the most refugees forced to flee islands and countries sinking below rising sea levels?
calcerise@hotmail.com - 23 May 2005 22:30 GMT It already is....and a lot of people from other countries as well.
Daniel J. Stern - 24 May 2005 01:31 GMT > > > Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... > > > Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48 > > > Norway Oslo $6.27
> > <snip a whole bunch of other countries>
> > What's your point? Other countries's citizens allow their governments > > to steal from them at a greater rate than US citizens do.
> So I take it you don't think taxation should be used to fight global > warming then? Please don't put words in my mouth -- not on the first date, at least.
Fred McGalliard - 24 May 2005 22:02 GMT > > Please stop complaining about your oh so terrible gas prices.... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What's your point? Other countries's citizens allow their governments to > steal from them at a greater rate than US citizens do. Yep. We-uns prefer our oil companies to steal from us. Fewer middle men then.
Ed Earl Ross - 21 May 2005 18:18 GMT > Just my opinion, but those jokes are lame. > I think somebody is making a bad attempt at humor in order to generate > traffic. I agree. In addition, the suggestion that H2 will power future cars is lame.
 Signature Humbly--Ed
"If the man doesn't believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that settles it. I mean, it does nowadays, because now we cant burn him." (Mark Twain)
The Ghost In The Machine - 22 May 2005 04:00 GMT In sci.physics, Ed Earl Ross <edearl@satx.rr.com> wrote on Sat, 21 May 2005 17:21:40 GMT <E6Kje.106218$hu5.94384@tornado.texas.rr.com>:
>> Just my opinion, but those jokes are lame. >> I think somebody is making a bad attempt at humor in order to generate >> traffic. > > I agree. In addition, the suggestion that H2 will power future cars > is lame. Pure H2 cannot compete with hydrocarbons, but in a sense hydrogen does power cars. (Carbon also participates, of course. The C-C bond has more energy than the C-H or the H-H.)
 Signature #191, ewill3@earthlink.net It's still legal to go .sigless.
Morituri-|-Max - 21 May 2005 19:11 GMT > Just my opinion, but those jokes are lame. > I think somebody is making a bad attempt at humor in order to generate > traffic. Yeah, not even a cartoon joke, just a picture with 3 options written out.. could have posted it here quicker than linking to the whole page.
mjt - 21 May 2005 13:59 GMT (bluebuck@grinningplanet.com) scribbled:
> Members of this group may enjoy this cartoon. :-) ... i doubt it.
 Signature << http://michaeljtobler.homelinux.com () >> Never commit yourself! Let someone else commit you.
Uncle Al - 21 May 2005 16:26 GMT > Members of this group may enjoy this cartoon. :-) > > Options Car Manufacturers Are Considering to > Improve the Viability of the Electric Car [snip crap]
Given that the E*L*E*C*T*R*I*C car is a thermodynamic impossibility, what improvements do you deem necessary and sufficient?
 Signature Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
CWatters - 21 May 2005 20:27 GMT > Options Car Manufacturers Are Considering to > Improve the Viability of the Electric Car Pure electric cars are viable today. The problem is not the car or even the battery - it's the power distribution network. You can already make your own electric car that has the following characteristics...
Top speed 70mph Urban cycle range 200 miles Cost $9000
and that's an official urban test cycle not some theoretical range.
Now Toshiba have now produced a battery that can be charged in 1 min... http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=4297 ..but we could never charge them that fast from a domestic supply because of the high current required.
Personally I think a pure electric car would make a perfect second car for a two car family today.
Alex Terrell - 25 May 2005 14:54 GMT The average second car or town car will do less than 30km in a day, and less then 100km almost all days. This is easily satisfied by a Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.
30 km needs about 5kWhrs, which is like 1 kettle for 1.5 hours. A European domestic house could charge this in 45 minutes - perhaps 90 min for a US 120V supply.
A full 100 km charge could be delivered in 2 hours in Europe, 4 hours in the USA.
The only problem is the power lead to your home. No problem if you have off street parking, which any initial target market would have.
The Toshiba battery might allow a 100km of driving charge in 10 minute, but that would require some 90KW. This might be feasible for "refueling stations".
Ken - 26 May 2005 00:43 GMT I thought the windmill on the roof of an electic car wasn't all dumb, as long as it retracts whilst driving and is used to charge the batteries whilst sitting in a windy parking space 23 hours of each day. Meanwhile EV's need better batteries. Photovoltaics, wind generators, tidal, wave and other intermittent energy sources would benefit hugely from improved storage. I don't see that R&D funding in this area reflects how significant such technologies are and will be - particularly if of high energy density - vehicles of all kinds would be simpler, lighter, more efficient. Just compare the complexities of internal combustion engines, gearboxes, differentials to maintanance free, ultra reliable electric motors with only a single moving part. If batteries are compact enough then it also becomes significant for energy distribution as it would become feasible to physically transport electricity much like energy in the form of coal, oil and gas are shipped and trucked today making remote desertlocations with lots of solar,remote windy locations etc more feasable for energy harvesting. Is there a theoretical upper limit to energy density of electrochemical storage? I can't help suspect that when the alternatives begin to look like they're set to rival fossil fuels there'll be sudden major drops in the price of oil, coal and gas. Just hope when that happens the alternatives weather the storm and don't end up bought out , their important patents ending up controlled by corporations with a strong financial interest in seeing such technologies mothballed. ( If I understand correctly, patent laws had the original intention of seeing good ideas taken up widely with the inventors recieving royalties. Somehow it seems to have become a way of enforcing monopoly rights to good inventions and allows good ideas to shelved by those with existing and currently cashed up interests that might face competition they can't win out against in the "free" marketplace. The Oil industry particularly is very cashed up, given it's low costs and high profit margins and will use it's wealth to ensure ongoing profitability through every means - from buying political influence to PR campaigns to buying out upstart rivals.) Ken
Alex Terrell - 26 May 2005 11:02 GMT In the UK (and most of Europe), if oil fell to $0.05 per barrel, Car fuel will still be expensive, since 75% of the price is tax.
Dean Hoffman - 23 May 2005 02:24 GMT > Members of this group may enjoy this cartoon. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > More jokes/cartoons at > http://www.grinningplanet.com/goo-toon/more.htm This link has a picture of a real working model, at least:
> http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s5i6784
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