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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / December 2005

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Push button car starter

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aniramca@yahoo.com - 05 Dec 2005 04:29 GMT
In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
Mercedes Benz shows their new cars using a key fob. So does the new
Infiniti M series. Are both technologies the same?
Who (which car company) started the push button car starter, and when
did it start? Is push button starter something new in the commercial
car industry?  Had some of the old cars in the 1960s those push button
starter too?  I knew that some old american car has push button
automatic transmission, I cannot remember the brand.
Thanks for info.
Scott Gardner - 05 Dec 2005 04:46 GMT
>In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
>car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>automatic transmission, I cannot remember the brand.
>Thanks for info.

Push-button starters aren't new.  Companies like Lincoln, Packard,
Hudson and Cadillac used them from the 1930's to the 1950's.  In fact,
the idea of having an ignition "key" wasn't around from the very
beginning - most cars prior to the 30's probably used push-button
starters.  I think most companies quit using them by the 1950's,
though.

As for new cars, they've only been using push-button starters for the
last few years.  The Honda S2000 has used one since 2000, and I can't
remember if there were any mass-produced cars that used a push-button
starter in the 1990's.

Also, there are two types of "push-button starters".  The one in the
Honda, for example, behaves just like a regular ignition switch.  You
have to press and hold the button until the engine starts.  Other
cars, like the Aston Martin, only require that you press the button
briefly.  After that, a computer takes over and continues to turn the
starter until the engine is running.

As for push-button transmissions, plenty of American cars had those
well into the 1960's.  The most-recent one I can think of off the top
of my head was a friend's 1964 or 1966 Corvair.

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Scott Gardner

"I suppose they are vicious rascals, but it scarcely matters what they are. I'm after what they know." (Gibson-Sterling, The Difference Engine)

Daniel J. Stern - 05 Dec 2005 17:20 GMT
> As for push-button transmissions, plenty of American cars had those well
> into the 1960's.  The most-recent one I can think of off the top of my
> head was a friend's 1964 or 1966 Corvair.

Your memory is faulty. No Corvair ever had a pushbutton transmission.

Pushbutton-operated automatic transmissions were found in 1956-1964
Chrysler products (cars and trucks, with a very few exceptions in 1964 in
the form of one or two special-sport models that used a floor-mounted
lever shift). The Chrysler system was mechanical (two cables) and quite
reliable.

Ford futzed around with an electrically-operated pushbutton gear selection
system on Edsels for a few years. It was an unreliable nightmare and went
over about as well as the rest of the car.
Scott Gardner - 05 Dec 2005 20:58 GMT
>> As for push-button transmissions, plenty of American cars had those well
>> into the 1960's.  The most-recent one I can think of off the top of my
>> head was a friend's 1964 or 1966 Corvair.
>
>Your memory is faulty. No Corvair ever had a pushbutton transmission.

Thanks for the correction.  I must have been remembering the
dash-mounted shift lever on his Corvair.  Now I have to sit here and
rack my brain trying to remember which friends' car it was that had
the honest-to-goodness pushbutton shifter.

Signature

Scott Gardner

"You don't need to fire the rig foreman that just blew the top off the wellhead, cause you know for damned sure he'll never do it again." (Ron Gardner)

Lawrence Glickman - 05 Dec 2005 21:12 GMT
>>> As for push-button transmissions, plenty of American cars had those well
>>> into the 1960's.  The most-recent one I can think of off the top of my
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>rack my brain trying to remember which friends' car it was that had
>the honest-to-goodness pushbutton shifter.

*rack your brain*?

put pushbutton transmission into Google Web and you find out it was a
Mopar design, last year on the 1964 Chrysler Imperial.

Duh?
Roger Blake - 06 Dec 2005 17:42 GMT
> Pushbutton-operated automatic transmissions were found in 1956-1964
> Chrysler products (cars and trucks, with a very few exceptions in 1964 in

Rambler also used push-button automatics in the late 1950s/early 1960s
timeframe. It was a mechanical, cable-operated system.

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 Roger Blake
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Peter W Peternouschek - 07 Dec 2005 19:13 GMT
I had a 46 Hudson that had a dash mounted push button transmission control
in addition to the gear shift lever.
To drive in auto mode the the auto button would be slelected on the dash and
the gear shift lever would be placed in the 2nd gear position. Upon stepping
on the throttle the electro mechanical apparatus would engage the fluid
filled clutch and the car would drive away in second gear and then
automatically upshift to third and downshift to 2nd as required.
My 2 cents on nostalgia
Peter

> > Pushbutton-operated automatic transmissions were found in 1956-1964
> > Chrysler products (cars and trucks, with a very few exceptions in 1964 in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>   Roger Blake
>   (Subtract 10 for email.)
HLS@nospam.nix - 08 Dec 2005 14:47 GMT
> > Pushbutton-operated automatic transmissions were found in 1956-1964
> > Chrysler products (cars and trucks, with a very few exceptions in 1964 in
>
> Rambler also used push-button automatics in the late 1950s/early 1960s
> timeframe. It was a mechanical, cable-operated system.

I believe the Ramblers used Chrysler transmissions for a period.
Roger Blake - 11 Dec 2005 14:00 GMT
> I believe the Ramblers used Chrysler transmissions for a period.

That started in 1972, which was after the "Rambler" name had been
dropped. (Last Rambler model was 1969.) AMC used the GM Dual-Range
Hydramatic until about 1958, when the Borg-Warner automatic (dubbed
"Flash-O-Matic") was adopted. I'm pretty sure the push-button models were
all Borg-Warner equipped.

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Don. - 10 Dec 2005 19:03 GMT
>>Pushbutton-operated automatic transmissions were found in 1956-1964
>>Chrysler products (cars and trucks, with a very few exceptions in 1964 in
>
> Rambler also used push-button automatics in the late 1950s/early 1960s
> timeframe. It was a mechanical, cable-operated system.

You sure that wasn't the emergency brake?  ;-)
=AB Paul =BB - 05 Dec 2005 05:14 GMT
> In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
> car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> car industry?  Had some of the old cars in the 1960s those push button
> starter too?

1912 Cadillac.  93 years ago.
Don. - 05 Dec 2005 12:50 GMT
« Paul » wrote:

>>In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
>>car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> 1912 Cadillac.  93 years ago.

The early, mid-30's, Fords had a push button.  They also had a key that mainly
just pulled a steel pin from the steering column that acted as a steering lock.

My 1968 Porsche was a German delivery car that was "illegal" in California in
several ways.  One was the fact it had a stearing shaft lock that operated via a
relay and not actuated by the key.

The push button primarily sent current to the starter relay.  In those early day
s of 6v systems the starter drew upwards of 100 amps and needed a hefty relay.
 Today with 12v systems the current is cut to 50 amps and many semiconductors
can handle that current. In fact they are currently being advertised to handle
up to 5,000 amps.

I have no idea what MB uses, probably the latest technology.
Don Stauffer - 05 Dec 2005 14:32 GMT
« Paul » wrote:

>>In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
>>car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> 1912 Cadillac.  93 years ago.

My 51 Crosley had one.  My 53MG-TD had a "pull knob" starter- same thing
but reversed motion :-)
Jan Kalin - 05 Dec 2005 14:58 GMT
>« Paul » wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>My 51 Crosley had one.  My 53MG-TD had a "pull knob" starter- same thing
>but reversed motion :-)

Citroen 2CV and Diane also had pushbutton starters.

And some older Fiats (600, 126, probably 500) had a starter cable
connected to a lever on the floor. You pulled the lever which, via the
cable, pulled the cog into the flywheel and an electric switch in the
starter itself turned on electricity for the starter.

My ex-girlfriend's mother, then around 60 years old, used to drive a 1965
Fiat 600 with such a system (and front-opening doors). She always enjoyed
embarrasing any cocky mechanic by waiting a bit and letting them puzzle
over why the damn engine wouldn't start, when she had clearly driven to
the garage, before letting them know this. To make things more interesting
the original steering lock (three positions: off, utilities, contact) had
broken and had been replaced by a regular lock (four positions: off,
utilities, contact and spring-loaded start).

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Don Stauffer - 06 Dec 2005 15:04 GMT
.
> And some older Fiats (600, 126, probably 500) had a starter cable
> connected to a lever on the floor. You pulled the lever which, via the
> cable, pulled the cog into the flywheel and an electric switch in the
> starter itself turned on electricity for the starter.
>
>.
Yes! forgot about my old Fiat 600.  That car had a lot of problems, but
the one good thing I remember is that I replaced a set of rod bearings
on it in less than three hours :-)
Roger Blake - 06 Dec 2005 17:44 GMT
> My 51 Crosley had one.  My 53MG-TD had a "pull knob" starter- same thing
> but reversed motion :-)

In the 1930s, Nash had the starter button activated by the clutch pedal,
you pushed the pedal all the way down to engage the starter. (This was
supposed to be a safety feature to prevent accidentally starting while
in gear.)

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N8N - 05 Dec 2005 13:28 GMT
> In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
> car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> automatic transmission, I cannot remember the brand.
> Thanks for info.

Traditionally, the ignition switch and starter switch were separate.
The modern, four-position (acc/off/ign/start) key switch was introduced
as a "feature" in the early to mid-1950's, to save drivers from the
horrible inconvenience of having to turn on a key AND push a button or
a momentary toggle :)

I think on modern cars the pushbutton is there simply to give the
interior of the car a "racy" feel; most race cars use standard toggle
switches and pushbuttons for the electrical switches as reliability and
serviceability are more important there than aesthetics, and most race
drivers don't seem to be inconvenienced by having different switches.
Thus to give a street car a "race car" aura, the designers use a more
expensive, stylized version of the standard starter pushbutton.  Eh,
makes no sense to me, but whatever.

Incidentally, prior to most cars adopting key-start, aside from a
dash-mounted pushbutton or momentary toggle, there were also switches
mounted under the floor and activated by buttons looking a lot like a
floor mounted dimmer switch.  I know Studebaker and possibly others
used to mount it underneath the clutch pedal, and I think Buick had it
under the accelerator?

Finally, regarding another poster's comment about high current, I'm not
aware of any vehicle made in the last 50 years that didn't have a
starter solenoid; I doubt any more than 20A is flowing through the
"start" contacts on the ignition switch or starter button.  However, in
very, very old vehicles, you'd sometimes see on top of the starter
where you'd expect there to be a solenoid, instead a very heavy duty
switch.  For example, I was working on a '50 Studebaker Commander a
while back; the starter was on the driver's side of the engine and had
one of these HD switches on top of it, it was activated by a pull rod
that hung under the dashboard next to the OD handle.  Obviously a
clutch/neutral safety interlock is impossible with this setup which may
be one reason why it's dropped out of favor and solenoids became the
way to go.   I think that car had a manual choke as well, IIRC.  Three
things you never see anymore :)

nate
old man - 06 Dec 2005 01:18 GMT
Many Jaguars had push button starters. My 1965 E Type did.
> In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
> car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> automatic transmission, I cannot remember the brand.
> Thanks for info.
Xplant - 06 Dec 2005 01:57 GMT
I believe most of the push button starters you are seeing on Lexus, Acura,
Mercedes, Infinitis, and BMW's now are because they have 'keyless'
ignitions.  (radio fob in pocket identifies to system that this is valid
operator). If you don't have a key, you need a way to tell the car to
'start'.  Although they may be 'sportier', I think the real answer is more
practical.

I also recall push button starters.  My first car, a TR-3, had one,  Then I
believe, as an earlier respondent suggested, a separate switch to hndle the
high current of the starter motor was probably cheaper than a more complex
and higher current ignition switch.

> In the past few years, push button car starter appear to arrive in some
> car models. The Lexus GS 430, and the new IS350 has one of those.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> automatic transmission, I cannot remember the brand.
> Thanks for info.
Don. - 06 Dec 2005 11:56 GMT
I'd forgotten how the TR-3 starter worked, been too many years. ;-)  The reason
I came up with the high current figures was because at one time I had a '68
Porsche that was giving me some intermittent starting problems.  I finally
pulled the starter solenoid off and the contact *strap* (1/8" thick x 1"x3") was
badly burned.  That caused me to investigate just how much current the starter
was pulling...about 20 amps for a 12V system.  The 50 amp value was hearsay but
logical for a 6V system?  :-\

OT:  I went to a Porsche dealer and asked for a new solenoid.  "Ve do not sell
integral parts at Porsche!  You need a new starter assembly, that will be $200
please."

A customer standing nearby came over to me and said, "Try a VW shop, the 912
starter is used in The Thing".  I did and was able to also buy brushes for a
dollar or two.

I had a friend that had worked at Ford in the 40's who received an award for a
suggestion on extending the reducing wear of the old carbon brushes.  Soak them
in 30 weight oil overnight.  We used that technique on a 100 point commutator
that were were having trouble with at Northrup and extended their life by a
factor of 4.

I know that's OT but maybe someone here is still using some of the old brush
type generators.

> I believe most of the push button starters you are seeing on Lexus, Acura,
> Mercedes, Infinitis, and BMW's now are because they have 'keyless'
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>automatic transmission, I cannot remember the brand.
>>Thanks for info.
N8N - 06 Dec 2005 14:02 GMT
> I'd forgotten how the TR-3 starter worked, been too many years. ;-)  The reason
> I came up with the high current figures was because at one time I had a '68
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> was pulling...about 20 amps for a 12V system.  The 50 amp value was hearsay but
> logical for a 6V system?  :-\

I would say closer to accurate would be 200 and 500 amps.  I have
measured the current on my '62 Lark and it's about 200A, and my '55
(with a '63 motor) is higher.  I don't know why they're diffferent, as
the engines are mostly similar (same displacement and compression,
minor differences in oiling system and block casting) maybe the '55 is
higher because it's an automatic?  20A sounds about right for the
standard Ford-style solenoid coil, although my regular Fluke meter
doesn't read current over 10A so I don't have any way of verifying that
(measured starter current with an inductive meter that sits on the
battery cable)

> OT:  I went to a Porsche dealer and asked for a new solenoid.  "Ve do not sell
> integral parts at Porsche!  You need a new starter assembly, that will be $200
> please."

Yeah, I've been through that before...

> A customer standing nearby came over to me and said, "Try a VW shop, the 912
> starter is used in The Thing".  I did and was able to also buy brushes for a
> dollar or two.

Unfortunately the old school VW shop that can hook you up like that is
also becoming a thing of the past...  (get it?  thing?  heh heh heh...)
I discovered this when trying to buy CV joints for my 944, was unable
to locate a VW parts place that could sell me just the joints...  I was
able to locate a place that rebuilds CV axles for cheap though.

> I had a friend that had worked at Ford in the 40's who received an award for a
> suggestion on extending the reducing wear of the old carbon brushes.  Soak them
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I know that's OT but maybe someone here is still using some of the old brush
> type generators.

I am, and I have filed that away for future reference.  Wouldn't that
make the generator slightly less efficient though, and the dust from
the brushes more "gummy?"  Or does it not really matter that much in
the grand scheme of things?

nate
Don. - 10 Dec 2005 19:03 GMT
>>I'd forgotten how the TR-3 starter worked, been too many years. ;-)  The reason
>>I came up with the high current figures was because at one time I had a '68
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> nate

Not sure about that last item Nate.  Most engines are so gummy anyway it may not
make much difference.  ;-)  It also may not be a problem because of the high
pressure of the brush/commutator (remember them things?) contact.  High speed
telemetry this ain't.

You file alway useless bits of information...too?  That's why my memory is
getting so bad...information overflow.  :-P
 
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