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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / July 2007Do gas stations really water down their gas?
I was just wondering if gas stations really do water their gas down to make more money. I was told by my father and step-mother that Shell and various other smaller gas stations (local companies) are doing this and it stalls their car (1988 piece of junk). Any facts behind this? Is this illegal? How can I tell? Thanks, Jason :2cents: (Save it!) :2cents:  SignatureDentShop http://www.automotiveforums.com >I was just wondering if gas stations really do water their gas down to >make more money. I was told by my father and step-mother that Shell and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >:2cents: (Save it!) :2cents: Of course its illegal. And I've no doubt it surely has happened somewhere, sometime but I doubt it's being done with the knowledge of Shell or any other major business entity. You can have the gas analyzed if you want to go to the expense. The local TV here did that a few years ago and discovered that while they were all within the limits for gasoline composition some were closer to the ideal then others. If those gas stations are not in an area with strict formulating requirements on gasoline it's entirely possible that those smaller stations are buying gas that isn't quite up to what it should be even if they aren't adding water. Is it possible your folks are putting premium gas in a car that's supposed to use regular? Some cars done run as well on premium as on regular. I can tell the difference in my Explorer, Premium makes it harder to start. > I was just wondering if gas stations really do water their gas down to > make more money. I was told by my father and step-mother that Shell and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > :2cents: (Save it!) :2cents: Water down gasoline? with what?.... water? no, you can't do that... well maybe you can now! Alcohol has replaced MTBE in a lot of areas and there can be up to 10% in your tank. (Gasohol is 10-15% and gasahol is anything over that) Alcohol is a varnish remover and since varnish is created by the older gasoline, it will wreak havoc in an old car, in the gastank, steel lines and the especially, the carb. Until all the old crud is dissolved and burned off, your car will probably run like crap. Another facet of this, is that it gives the solution, a lighter specific gravity, which will cause your carb float to rise slightly more than necessary to shut off fuel. So now you may have a richer than necessary mixture also. Rough running, stumbling, you guessed it.. Further, alcohol can absorb water, to a great degree, but the new fuels will have a sensor in the pump to detect and shut it off, if it exceeds a certain percentage. So you can ,now, get watered down gas, legally. Love those oil company boyz! SilverStude <rfjohnstone@Cox.net> wrote in article <xsrVg.8634$Go3.1198@dukeread05>... > Water down gasoline? with what?.... water? no, you can't do that... > well maybe you can now! Alcohol has replaced MTBE in a lot of areas and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > exceeds a certain percentage. So you can ,now, get watered down gas, > legally. Love those oil company boyz! I worked with the State of Maine on a gasohol project in the mid-'70s, and we found that adding water to a 90/10 gasoline/methanol mix would cause the water to mix with the methanol and precipitate the methanol/water mixture out of the gasoline to the bottom of the container.....just as water alone would do. So, while the water would, indeed, mix with the alcohol, and the alcohol would, indeed, mix with the gasoline, water STILL doesn't mix with gasoline. DentShop <DentShop.2f81jc@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote in article > I was just wondering if gas stations really do water their gas down to > make more money. I was told by my father and step-mother that Shell and > various other smaller gas stations (local companies) are doing this and > it stalls their car (1988 piece of junk). > > Any facts behind this? Any water added to a storage tank - intentionally or accidently - would go straight to the bottom and the gasoline would float on top. It is not possible for gasoline to mix with water.....GASOLINE AND WATER DO NOT MIX! Most oil companies have their pump pickup tubes located a specific distance off the bottom of the tank in order to avoid picking up water.... Tank owners regularly apply a paste to the bottom of the measuring stick that is used to measure how much gasoline is in the storage tank. This paste turns color - it used to be from green to purple - in the presence of water. If this happens, the tank owner calls the fuel distributor and the bottom of the tank is pumped out. > Is this illegal? Doesn't need to be illegal since it is impossible to mix gasoline and water......not to mention idiotic to even attempt. > How can I tell? Moot question.......... You might end up with water in your car's tank for a number of reasons...... • You drive it in the cold and park it in a heated garage causing condensation to form. (I used to do factory-authorized Zamboni Ice Resurfacing Machine maintenance and condensation was a huge problem, with the machine working in the cold arena, then parked in the heated garage and filled with hot water just before going out on the ice. First thing I would do with just about ANY Zamboni service would be to drain the bottom of the fuel tank.) • You gas up at a low-volume place that doesn't check their tanks regularly. • You have some sort of a leak in the fuel inlet, the fuel return line into the tank or the tank itself - such as a rust hole on top - which allows water to enter. If you either drain or siphon a sample of fuel from the BOTTOM of the tank, water will be very evident as a clear bubble lying on the bottom of the container of gasoline. > DentShop <DentShop.2f81jc@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote in article >> I was just wondering if gas stations really do water their gas down to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Any facts behind this? Myth > Any water added to a storage tank - intentionally or accidently - would go > straight to the bottom and the gasoline would float on top. It is not > possible for gasoline to mix with water.....GASOLINE AND WATER DO NOT MIX! <snip> > • You gas up at a low-volume place that doesn't check their tanks > regularly. Did this once at the start of a 300mile journey. Didn't know about it for the first 2 hours while on the flat roads but after a while and into the hilly section the water would settle out in the float bowl. Then on uphill stretches the bubble of water would roll to the back of the bowl and over the jet. Lots of spluttering until the next downhill. Eventually I would have to get out and drain the floatbowl. Not a good experience, young family in the back, moonless night, always happened way out the back of beyond. Towing a trailer too. PETROL AND WATER DO NOT MIX ! ! ! Sounds like BS to me. Granted, there is bad fuel and good fuel but to my knowledge water doesn't mix with fuel... SignatureAlibi http://www.automotiveforums.com I've always wondered that myself. :dunno: Signaturealfonso2501 http://www.automotiveforums.com gasoline is very highly regulated. if a company were putting water in its gas, they would surely get shut down. it is VERY illegal, and would do damage to a new cars engine. if someone says X-brand puts water in their gas, then it is because they are ignorant and that is what they have been told by someone who doesnt like their brand. SignatureGreyGoose006 http://www.automotiveforums.com When an oil company is accused of "watering down" it refers to the practice of using less crude oil and more aromatic "additives" to produce the gasoline. This lowers the octane rating but stays within standard guidelines of what can be called "premium" grade fuel. When a gas station is accused of "watering down" their fuel it usually means they are selling regular grade fuel as premium grade, or a mixture of regular and premium as premium grade. SignatureGohan Ryu http://www.automotiveforums.com Why take a chance to save pennies... Local gaS CO-OP - in my city. ( by joining your local fuel co-op, you actually save more than by usign a discount outlet.) Line companies only when travelling.If they don't refine, I keep looking. cheers Reg SignatureReg Saretsky http://www.automotiveforums.com The in-ground fuel tanks may seep water. After a few decades in the ground, any of us would start rotting. Many places may notice the water in their fuel,but neglect to replace the tanks. Intentionally watering the fuel is, I hope, more rare. It is done, but you should be able to tell which stations to feed your car by using the guideline, "Would I eat from there?" SignatureTruck http://www.automotiveforums.com > The in-ground fuel tanks may seep water. After a few decades in the > ground, any of us would start rotting. Many places may notice the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you should be able to tell which stations to feed your car by using the > guideline, "Would I eat from there?" Water in the older storage tanks would rust thru and cause ground contamination. It's very unlikely you would get any appreciable amount in your fuel, as a) it doesn't mix with gasoline and b) it would cause your car to stall ( it doesn't burn) However, water in todays fuels is definitely an issue, as many of the brands are mixed with anhydrous alcohol. Alcohol DOES absorb water and will dilute the fuel. Any station switching to alcohol based fuels have to get their tanks cleaned out or replaced. The newer pumps have water analyzers, which will switch the pump off if the concentration gets too high. Then the fuel has to be pumped out and replaced. Alcohol is a very good cleaning agent. If you are having an issue with fuels, it could be due to the alcohol cleaning the varnish and other residues out of your fuel system. You'll have to put up with it for a few months until the system is cleaned thoroughly. If the alcohol based fuels have a high concentration of water absorbed, but less than the cut off point, then your mileage will suffer considerably. Alcohol, to begin with, doesn't have the BTU value of gasoline and with water in it, it has a lot less. So you'll be filling your tank frequently..... at the same price as good gasoline Bob Johnstone <rfjohnstone@cox.net> wrote in article <rEski.5342$Sb4.1673@newsfe21.lga>... > > The in-ground fuel tanks may seep water. After a few decades in the > > ground, any of us would start rotting. Many places may notice the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > gasoline and with water in it, it has a lot less. So you'll be filling > your tank frequently..... at the same price as good gasoline When water mixes with alcohol in a gasohol mixture, the water/alcohol mix precipitates out of the gasoline - leaving gasoline only with a water/alcohol mix at the bottom of the storage tank. > Bob Johnstone <rfjohnstone@cox.net> wrote in article > <rEski.5342$Sb4.1673@newsfe21.lga>... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > precipitates out of the gasoline - leaving gasoline only with a > water/alcohol mix at the bottom of the storage tank. It will precipitate out when the amount of water exceeds the alcohols ability to keep it in suspension. Might not be a big difference between your statement and mine, but you can definitely pump, water diluted, gasohol with no precipitate, into your car. The performance will suffer considerably. When you add a pint of gas line antifreeze, in the winter to prevent/cure condensation from freezing, the purpose is to absorb the water and still be miscible with the gasoline, so it gets removed and burned. Of course, there's a limit... Bob Johnstone <rfjohnstone@cox.net> wrote in article <iEcli.54292$aP2.38913@newsfe16.lga>... > > Bob Johnstone <rfjohnstone@cox.net> wrote in article > > <rEski.5342$Sb4.1673@newsfe21.lga>... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> will dilute the fuel. Any station switching to alcohol based fuels > >> have to get their tanks cleaned out or replaced. The newer pumps have > >> water analyzers, which will switch the pump off if the concentration > >> gets too high. Then the fuel has to be pumped out and replaced. > >> > >> Alcohol is a very good cleaning agent. If you are having an issue with > >> fuels, it could be due to the alcohol cleaning the varnish and other > >> residues out of your fuel system. You'll have to put up with it for a > >> few months until the system is cleaned thoroughly. > >> If the alcohol based fuels have a high concentration of water [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > water and still be miscible with the gasoline, so it gets removed and > burned. Of course, there's a limit... I worked on gasohol experiments with the State of Maine testing lab in the late '70s, and we discovered that a single pint of "dry gas" (methanol) would go straight to the bottom of the tank with the presence of ANY water. One syringe of water in a gallon of ten percent gasohol would cause the alcohol/water mixture to precipitate. It does NOT cause water and gasoline to mix. Drain off a tank with alcohol/water in it, and you can see the water at the bottom of the container - just the same as if there were no alcohol in the mix. Alcohol only keeps the water from freezing in the tank until it can be run through the fuel system - with expected stumbles and performance issues. > Bob Johnstone <rfjohnstone@cox.net> wrote in article > <iEcli.54292$aP2.38913@newsfe16.lga>... [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > Alcohol only keeps the water from freezing in the tank until it can be run > through the fuel system - with expected stumbles and performance issues. Well, this isn't the 70's. ...and gasoline formulations are a bit different today, which is what the alky replacing the MTBE is all about. I didn't say that gasoline would absorb the water.... I said alcohol will. Gasohol is a mix of more gasoline than alcohol and the alcohol is hygroscopic, which means it has a limited but verifiable ability to absorb water. Of course it will precipitate at a point, which is what I stated. In the case of E-85? Where's the contaminated solution going to precipitate to, when practically the entire tankful is alcohol? |
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