alignment required when replacing a bad strut?

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techman41973@yahoo.com - 11 Nov 2006 06:07 GMT

I have 200K on my 1997 Accord. With 30,000 miles on a set of 4 new
Monroe Sensatrac struts,
one of them (rear drivers side) is leaking bad and needs to be
replaced.
Is it necessary to have an alignment done in this situation?
Thanks

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Stephen H - 11 Nov 2006 06:20 GMT

As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point. That
being said, I replaced the struts on a Taurus that had set adjustments and
after I checked the alignment- and the camber was out. go figure- By the
rules it should have been good.
When was the last time the alignment was checked? If it has been a while
then it wouldn't be a bad Idea to be sure the work was done correctly and
everything is copasetic

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Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

>I have 200K on my 1997 Accord. With 30,000 miles on a set of 4 new
> Monroe Sensatrac struts,
> one of them (rear drivers side) is leaking bad and needs to be
> replaced.
> Is it necessary to have an alignment done in this situation?
> Thanks

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Comboverfish - 11 Nov 2006 15:35 GMT

> As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point

You do this for a living? There is enough slop at the strut crossbolts
on the OP's Accord, or most Macpherson strut style models, to achieve a
one degree range of camber movement. Further that, smaller diameter
replacement bolts are available if you need more adjustment range,
though that would indicate that something is bent -- an adjustment
would just be a coverup.
Slap a pair of struts on a previously aligned Accord, then see how far
out your camber and
toe are. Maybe you would be surprised.

> That being said, I replaced the struts on a Taurus that had set adjustments and
> after I checked the alignment- and the camber was out. go figure- By the
> rules it should have been good.

There are rules regarding Taurus strut eccentrics? Who is the
governing body? Have they published a charter for all to read?

Toyota MDT in MO

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Bob Urz - 11 Nov 2006 19:12 GMT

>>As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Toyota MDT in MO

The earlier gen taurus (in the front) have a plate on top of the strut
tower that has to be drilled out of its spot welds to do more strut
adjustment.

I believe too in the rear there is a after market kit you can install to
increase the adjustment.

Bob

Bob

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Comboverfish - 11 Nov 2006 20:31 GMT

> The earlier gen taurus (in the front) have a plate on top of the strut
> tower that has to be drilled out of its spot welds to do more strut
> adjustment.
>
> I believe too in the rear there is a after market kit you can install to
> increase the adjustment.

Yes and yes. The strut plate adjustment allows for a little camber as
well as caster adjustment, but since it is at the top of the suspension
assembly there isn't much movement to be had in regard to wheel angle.

> Bob
>
> Bob

Toyota MDT in MO

Toyota MDT in MO

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Stephen H - 12 Nov 2006 05:50 GMT

>> As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> out your camber and
> toe are. Maybe you would be surprised.

That is why I said "almost" I would always check the alignment on any I do
and on most of the Honda's I've done the specs were correct regardless. I
understand about bolt slop and use it whenever possible.

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TeGGeR® - 15 Nov 2006 02:45 GMT

>> As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point
>
> You do this for a living? There is enough slop at the strut
> crossbolts on the OP's Accord, or most Macpherson strut style models,

I didn't think the '97 Accord had Macpherson struts which performed part of
the suspension's geometric positioning.

As far as I know, the front suspension of the Accord of that generation
consists of the lower control arm, radius rod and upper wishbone. The
damper/spring assembly (what the OP is wrongly calling a "strut") bolts to
the lower control arm through a rubber bushing.

Or am I musunderstanding something here? You guys know better than I do.

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TeGGeR®

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Comboverfish - 15 Nov 2006 03:18 GMT

> >> As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Or am I musunderstanding something here? You guys know better than I do.

Hi Tegger,

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm a dumb@ss! I was thinking of the
system in my head but not the multilink wishbone Honda as I should
have. Having worked at a Honda dealer that qualifies as a brain fart.
You are correct, there is zero useful adjustment at any of the
attatching bolts on the wishbone design. They do have a shim between
the radius arm and front beam bushing that can be removed for more
caster, or added to to reduce caster. Basically, if camber is off on
one of these you need to look for bent parts. Now, any other mac strut
design.....

Toyota MDT in MO (still learning to think before posting!)

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TeGGeR® - 15 Nov 2006 03:38 GMT

<snip>

> Thanks for pointing that out. I'm a dumb@ss! I was thinking of the
> system in my head but not the multilink wishbone Honda as I should
> have. Having worked at a Honda dealer that qualifies as a brain fart.

I'm the last one to point out mistakes, actually. You've doubtless
forgotten more than my total sum of knowledge. I'm just a driveway
grease monkey.

> You are correct, there is zero useful adjustment at any of the
> attatching bolts on the wishbone design. They do have a shim between
> the radius arm and front beam bushing that can be removed for more
> caster,

That's interesting. I just did all the front bushings on my '91 Integra
(which has the same front suspension design as the '97 Accord). There
were no shims at all at the crossmember end of the radius rod. Just the
thick steel end plates and the rubber bushings. I even swabbed out the
sockets in the crossmember before reinstalling, so I know nothing was
stuck in there. Guess the car didn't need any shims?

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TeGGeR®

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TeGGeR® - 15 Nov 2006 03:43 GMT

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> forgotten more than my total sum of knowledge. I'm just a driveway
> grease monkey.

And this monkey just had his own brain fart! The OP was talking about
the REAR suspension, something I only noticed just now!

Result should be the same though, I'd guess. The rear also has a
multilink setup with the damper assembly bolting to the control arm with
a rubber bushing.

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TeGGeR®

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Comboverfish - 15 Nov 2006 05:31 GMT

> > I'm the last one to point out mistakes, actually. You've doubtless
> > forgotten more than my total sum of knowledge. I'm just a driveway
> > grease monkey.

Unfortunately I've forgotten most of what I knew as well : ) For a
DIYer/enthusiast, you really seem to know your stuff and show concern
for proper repairs. Give yourself due credit!

> And this monkey just had his own brain fart! The OP was talking about
> the REAR suspension, something I only noticed just now!
>
> Result should be the same though, I'd guess. The rear also has a
> multilink setup with the damper assembly bolting to the control arm with
> a rubber bushing.

They're the same in terms of no camber adjustability, plus no caster
due to it being a fixed (nonsteering) wheel.

RE: no caster shims in your Acura -- Not all Hond-curas came with
them. You can add a shim to reduce caster or you can remove one if
equipped to increase caster. I've found that on old Toyota Camrys with
this same design that they rarely had shims from the factory, yet they
usually could benefit from more front caster on high mileage units with
minor spring sag. It's a crap design. The radius arm (or sway bar on
Toyotas) should be threaded with two nuts for adjustability. Some
older models were, but I forget which years. The only problem is with
the threads corroding, but that's a problem with any threaded rod (tie
rods, etc.)

Toyota MDT in MO

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Shep - 11 Nov 2006 21:29 GMT

The use of a magnet camber gage on the wheel hub prior to disassembly would
allow one in these cases to at least re- establish the pre disassembly
camber be it right or wrong, as a starting point. I know we all know this so
go easy on me..

> As the struts have no camber adjustments, its almost a mute point. That
> being said, I replaced the struts on a Taurus that had set adjustments and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> Is it necessary to have an alignment done in this situation?
>> Thanks

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Stephen H - 12 Nov 2006 05:59 GMT

> The use of a magnet camber gage on the wheel hub prior to disassembly
> would allow one in these cases to at least re- establish the pre
> disassembly camber be it right or wrong, as a starting point. I know we
> all know this so go easy on me..

Good point- that is a cleaver trick to insure your close to specs. Don't
have to do much random strut changes anymore- the shop is a Subaru so that
is a camber adjustment.

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Comboverfish - 12 Nov 2006 19:31 GMT

> The use of a magnet camber gage on the wheel hub prior to disassembly would
> allow one in these cases to at least re- establish the pre disassembly
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > then it wouldn't be a bad Idea to be sure the work was done correctly and
> > everything is copasetic

I would be interested to know how many mechanics (what %) own a
magnetic camber gauge. They are pretty simple in construction, but
still very expensive. I can't rationalize the purchase given our
policy to align cars after suspension work whether warranty/customer
pay and whether or not the replaced part has any affect on alignment.
We are doing a recall now on 96- trucks that requires ball joint
replacement. The tolerences are so tight and the part(s) are aligned
with dowels so that there is no way the alignment would change
significantly, yet we do an alignment afterwards. I have no idea what
is wrong with the original ball joints which makes it seem like the
customer is really getting a free alignment and nothing more. C'est la
vie, I suppose....

Toyota MDT in MO

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shiden_kai - 12 Nov 2006 19:40 GMT

> I would be interested to know how many mechanics (what %) own a
> magnetic camber gauge. They are pretty simple in construction, but
> still very expensive.

In over 25 years in the trade, I've never worked with any tech or
met any tech casually that owned one of these items. I have only
worked in GM/Chrysler dealerships, it's possible that some guys
in the independent shops might have them.

> I can't rationalize the purchase given our
> policy to align cars after suspension work whether warranty/customer
> pay and whether or not the replaced part has any affect on alignment.

Exactly. Alignments are always done, not because it's always necessary,
but because "it's always necessary" to cover your a.s in this business. The
one alignment that you don't do, will be the customer who will be in
bitching about "why didn't you do an alignment"?.

Ian

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Comboverfish - 12 Nov 2006 20:44 GMT

> In over 25 years in the trade, I've never worked with any tech or
> met any tech casually that owned one of these items. I have only
> worked in GM/Chrysler dealerships, it's possible that some guys
> in the independent shops might have them.

A guy in our shop (he's one of the few good techs) has one. I don't
know of any others. Chrysler too? Didn't know that...

> Exactly. Alignments are always done, not because it's always necessary,
> but because "it's always necessary" to cover your a.s in this business. The
> one alignment that you don't do, will be the customer who will be in
> bitching about "why didn't you do an alignment"?.

No doubt! Slightly OT rant to follow...

I just about swelled a bloodvessel one day when my (useless) service
writer put me on the phone with a customer that was bitching about her
Camry "pulling" ever since a warranty! job about 6! months ago. Long
story: I find out this warranty job was simply a steering shaft coupler
replacement. I'm guessing it was replaced by one of our gravyhound
butchers that don't give a sh.t about the customer, and left the
steering wheel off center. I already had looked at the car the week
before and found one tire on the pull side to be way low on pressure.
I fixed that problem and straightened the steering wheel at the tie
rods (for the butcher), test drove before/after and she got it back for
free (again). It was clearly fixed properly.

So fast forward to present, she's complaining that it is still pulling.
I am explaining over and over on the phone that I have test drove it
4! times and it hasn't pulled since I made the repair last week. I was
explaining that she *didn't* need to spend money for an alignment; the
only thing I could do would be to swap camber to the other side to try
to compensate for an imaginary pull. It was obvious that she just
wanted to bitch. I could just imagine the bitching if I gave it back
to her after an alignment check: no problem found. So I ask her in
what condition or roads does it "pull" now? She says "from between the
road X exit to the road Y exit on highway Z it pulls left one lane". I
estimate that at about 2! miles. The bitch. So I ask her if she
realizes that that is two miles; you can't expect to stay in one lane
especially when the drainage slant is to the left! Of course not only
1)doesn't she realize but 2) that's not the point. Shortly afterward
she packed up her 'trying to get a free alignment bullshit' and hung
up. Bitch. You probably agree that you would bend over backwards for
just about any customer, but there comes a point where it is counter
productive. When I go into business I will happily let those types
pound sand.

Toyota MDT in MO

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