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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / General Car Topics / June 2009WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR??
Well - apparently NOBODY! While Fords is thinking about thinking about thinking about an electric car in the FAR FAR FAR future, GM and Chrysler execs sit around yanking their puds with an extremely STUPID expression on their faces. The Japanese RIGHT NOW - which means to the non-retarded, "TODAY" have an OPERATING prototype already tested with a top speed OVER 250 MPH and with a rage of over 350 miles on a charge. Whine GM can get one up to 40 and for 10 miles. WOW the NEW General Motors. Chrysler still doesn't know what an electric car IS. If you can, catch the INFOCUS show on HD-NET. The 8 wheeled car is amazing. It WIPED the track with a Porsche on a drag race. The Porsche was ahead to 10 MPH and after that never saw the electric again. It had 100MPH on the top speed of the Porsche. But American companies ate NOT even REMOTELY INTERESTED, what a SHOCK, that is, huh??? "How did you say it works again?" Why do you need all those batteries? WHY do you need an electric motor on all 8 wheels? Won't ONE work? What's the "BOTTOM LINE" on this, how many BEANS can it handle in its trunk? For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric car is "IMPOSSIBLE" and that NOBODY would EVER want one. So what is the BIG BRAIN'S idea over at GM? Make a tiny SHITBOX and put a Chinese 4 cylinder GASOLINE engine in it. Hey! That's the BEST GM can come up with. The Eliica is amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica But remember a you read the article and look at the car, the CEO of General Motors says it is "IMPOSSIBLE!" Can't be done,. MAYBE in 100 years. Maybe 200. It just CANNOT be done.. http://common.weblogsinc.com/common/images/3060000000053184.JPG?0.15775377344322528 Look at the "TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE." > Well - apparently NOBODY! While Fords is thinking about thinking about > thinking about an electric car in the FAR FAR FAR future, GM and Chrysler [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Look at the "TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE." Damn and I thought my electric bill was high now/ Hmm we had 100 degree heat for the last two days tomorrows forecast is 110 degrees. the Orientals here are the worst in the fast lane they drive using the Km speed applied to MPH speed limits with their four way flashers on. > For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric car > is "IMPOSSIBLE" and that NOBODY would EVER want one. So what is the BIG [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://common.weblogsinc.com/common/images/3060000000053184.JPG?0.15775377344322528 > Look at the "TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE." MB> Damn and I thought my electric bill was high now/ Hmm we had 100 degree heat for the last two days tomorrows forecast is 110 degrees. the Orientals here are the worst in the fast lane they drive MB> using the Km speed applied to MPH speed limits with their four way flashers on. Marc - keep opposing nuclear power. Watch your power bill soar. When it gets to $1K a month will you START to consider having nuclear power???? The point is that car is HERE NOW. There are great new batteries being made by the Chinese that have more than twice the power of a L-ion battery and cheaper to make. Electric car? Who killed America? How did we get back to royalty? Before his time in the king seat is over, the crooked Messiah will destroy what made America what it once was but he and every politician alive will not suffer one bit, because previous politicians fixed life for themselves and their progeny. The crooked Obama will never have to endure what the average Joe will have to endure when it comes to the coming ecogeek economy where gasoline is too expensive for the working man and America turns to the bicycle for commuting. Imagine the coming bicycle gap. Despicable politicians always take excellent care of Number One and, by tradition, leave the common folks to fend for themselves no matter how demeaning life for them becomes. He'll be living in his high-walled compound with government supplied power and 1000 Praetorians guarding his a.s 24/7, occasionally phoning Algore to see what's new in palace heating and cooling. >> For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric car >> is "IMPOSSIBLE" and that NOBODY would EVER want one. So what is the BIG [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the Chinese that have more than twice the power of a L-ion battery and > cheaper to make. You got me wrong! I never opposed Nuclear Power, Never, Never! No NO NO. our electric bills here are some of the highest in the nation, why because of coal! > >> For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric car > >> is "IMPOSSIBLE" and that NOBODY would EVER want one. So what is the BIG [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > electric bills here are some of the highest in the nation, why because of > coal! No, that's incorrect. The United States is the Saudi Arabia of coal. But the environmental regulations on coal is what makes it so expensive.  SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric car >> >> is "IMPOSSIBLE" and that NOBODY would EVER want one. So what is the BIG [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > No, that's incorrect. The United States is the Saudi Arabia of coal. > But the environmental regulations on coal is what makes it so expensive. Do you sh.t in your living room? No plumes of black smoke float from the Holcomb Station's smokestack into the wide-open Kansas sky, as much of the toxic ash by-products from burning the coal (over 1.5 million tons a year) are scrubbed from the plant's emissions and stored in nearby containment ponds. But Holcomb does emit 1.5 million to 1.7 million tons of carbon dioxide per annum—the invisible greenhouse gas that is the leading driver of human-propelled global warming. This is one of the main reasons many—including Sebelius—opposed the two coal-fired plants, which would have generated more than 11 million tons a year of CO2 Have you ever tried to breathe only CO2? How about that toxic ash? take a swim in that pond and get back to me on the effects............................. then we'll discuss the air quality. > >> >> For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric > >> >> car [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > swim in that pond and get back to me on the > effects............................. then we'll discuss the air quality. Or perhaps we can look towards the country that erects two coal powered plants per day--China. China, the country with the largest population in the world. And BTW, no environmental regulations whatsoever. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> >> For YEARS the American companies have been saying that the electric >> >> >> car [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > plants per day--China. China, the country with the largest population > in the world. And BTW, no environmental regulations whatsoever. And that is good how? It's like saying NO SPEED LIMITS anymore, neighborhoods, schools etc. Or no more Garbage pick up deal with it your own way. MB>You got me wrong! I never opposed Nuclear Power, Never, Never! No NO NO. our electric bills here are some of the highest in the nation, why because of coal! Marc coal is cheap. Much electric generation is by OIL. THAT is what costs! > MB>You got me wrong! I never opposed Nuclear Power, Never, Never! No NO NO. > our electric bills here are some of the highest in the nation, why because > of coal! > > Marc coal is cheap. Much electric generation is by OIL. THAT is what > costs! Oil and natural gas, your right coal is cheap have you ever saw what it does to the land (open pit coal mines)?, the black lung the miners get? Ever live down wind of a coal fired power plant. You'd change your mind quick,, my nephew who is dying from stage four cancer lived (grew up) in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia, coal dust covered the town when it rained everything was black. It's like living next to a volcano. I like to think of it like this millions of years ago man discovered fire up until the industrial age the plant life did a great job of cleaning the air of the small amount of smoke particles and little pollution we produced. One of those coal fired power plants in five years, before regulations came along produced all the pollution that was produced up to the industrial age. Now a great example of how this works look at Mexico City it is in a "bowl" of mountains life is concentrated in a small area and the mountains keep the daily pollution in, the vegetation cannot clean the air fast enough to rid the air of the pollution. Here is a question for you: Natural Gas is a natural product from below the surface of the earth, why then are we "charged" for production of natural gas? The oil companies have no refineries that need to refine it, why do you have to pay such a high price for it? MB > Marc coal is cheap. Much electric generation is by OIL. THAT is what > costs! ==================== Oil and natural gas, your right coal is cheap have you ever saw what it does to the land (open pit coal mines)?, the black lung the miners get? Ever live down wind of a coal fired power plant. You'd change your mind quick,, my nephew who is dying from stage four cancer lived (grew up) in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia, coal dust covered the town when it rained everything was black. It's like living next to a volcano. I like to think of it like this millions of years ago man discovered fire up until the industrial age the plant life did a great job of cleaning the air of the small amount of smoke particles and little pollution we produced. One of those coal fired power plants in five years, before regulations came along produced all the pollution that was produced up to the industrial age. Now a great example of how this works look at Mexico City it is in a "bowl" of mountains life is concentrated in a small area and the mountains keep the daily pollution in, the vegetation cannot clean the air fast enough to rid the air of the pollution. Here is a question for you: Natural Gas is a natural product from below the surface of the earth, why then are we "charged" for production of natural gas? The oil companies have no refineries that need to refine it, why do you have to pay such a high price for it? ===================================== Marc - electricity IS generated by natural gas in SOME parts of the country. Intermountain region. But that is more the exception than the rule. A heavy percentage are oil fired systems. Which is why some folks pay through the a.s for electricity. The way we did LOTS of things 100 years ago weren't safe, Marc. We've learned some things in the past century or two. Coal mining is much cleaner now. BUT I agree, not ideal. Nuclear power is the SAFEST and MOST environmentally friendly energy we have. Perfect? NO! Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:56 GMT From: krp Reply-To: "krp" <krp34@verizon.net> MessageID: <gnRZl.2802$u86.768@nwrddc01.gnilink.net> Newsgroup: talk.politics >Well - apparently NOBODY! While Fords is thinking about thinking about >thinking about an electric car in the FAR FAR FAR future, GM and Chrysler [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Look at the "TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE." In 1993, Chrysler built a electric minivan, the TEVan, I drove in one owned by a local Chry. Fleet Manger here. We drove to a Dodger game plugged in at one of their RV stations there and drove it back after the game. I have to admit it wasn't bad I believe top speed was about 80 or 90mph and distance about 100 miles per charge. "not bad for 16 years ago, "wonder what ever happen to them" ? ........... Signature® > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:56 GMT > From: krp [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > 80 or 90mph and distance about 100 miles per charge. "not bad for 16 > years ago, "wonder what ever happen to them" ? ........... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F The movie............. http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/ >> The Eliica is amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica But >> remember [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Look at the "TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE." > In 1993, Chrysler built a electric minivan, the TEVan, I drove in one > owned by a local Chry. Fleet Manger here. We drove to a Dodger game > plugged in at one of their RV stations there and drove it back after > the game. I have to admit it wasn't bad I believe top speed was about > 80 or 90mph and distance about 100 miles per charge. "not bad for 16 > years ago, "wonder what ever happen to them" ? ........... The BEAN COUNTERS running the Big 3 KILLED them. That was before the L-ion battery and this new battery the Chinese have which delivers twice the power of a L-ion battery. The electric car is vastly superior to a gas powered car. If you saw the special documentary on the Eliica on HD-Net they had a drag race between a Porsche high performance car and the electric. The Porsche was ahead to 70 kph, then the electric shot away from the Porsche and by 160 kph could only be seen pulling away in the distance by the frustrated Porsche driver. As recently as this month the IDIOT running GM told us that the electric car is maybe 100 years away. He was on the team that lead GM into the toilet after listening to him for over an hour I give GM absolutely NO chance of survival. If I was an autoworker in Detroit, I'd start thinking of moving somewhere where there will be jobs. GM is TOAST as is Chrysler. Ford MAY survive but it will be much smaller. PLAN on buying a Japanese or Korean car. That new Buick may start to look like an old Kaiser soon. A rusting memory in a salvage yard. Someday soon a young boy will ask their dad; "Dad was there ever a car called a Chevrolet?" > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:56 GMT > From: krp [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > 80 or 90mph and distance about 100 miles per charge. "not bad for 16 > years ago, "wonder what ever happen to them" ? ........... Nobody wanted them! Manufacturers of automobiles only produce selling models. There are only a handful of environmentalists who will put their money where their mouths are. And for the life of me, I can't see calling my boss in the morning and explaining to him how I can't get to work because of a power outage the night before. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:56 GMT >> From: krp [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > calling my boss in the morning and explaining to him how I can't get to > work because of a power outage the night before. Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy one then most other people will have one also and understand. Double Negatives > >> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:56 GMT > >> From: krp [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy one > then most other people will have one also and understand. Double Negatives It doesn't work that way if I am "forced" to buy one as Hussein desires. During these warmer months, our illuminating company often warns us of overusing our air conditioners as the grid cannot handle the demand. Imagine if half of the population got stuck with these electric cars? I'm sure this communist would insist we give up our AC to charge our cars in the name if environmental protection. But explain that one to my employer who desperately needs my services first thing in the morning. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:19:56 GMT >> >> From: krp [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > overusing our air conditioners as the <<<<<<<<grid cannot handle the demand.>>>>>>>>>>> > Imagine if half of the population got stuck with these electric cars? You would charge it at night when consumption was low. The reason your area cannot handle the power consumption in the summer is the grid is old and needs updating. Small transformers under size lines for the amperage and longer distance from the generating stations, you can only push so much water in a old pipe before it bursts and electricty is just like water, you try and push more amperage down that line and you fry the transformers and lines and houses that were built 20/30/40 years ago. this is the reason if you have a electrical fire in your home you cannot just fix what broke you have to bring the whole house up to current code. Now imagine trying to upgrade a entire electrical gird that has to be on all the time. Galveston Tx just went through that after IKE the code says no patches it must be replaced with new up to code wiring, homes that had any damage has to be brought up to todays code and so did the transmission lines and local grids. > I'm sure this communist would insist we give up our AC to charge our > cars in the name if environmental protection. But explain that one to > my employer who desperately needs my services first thing in the > morning. > >> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy > >> one [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > be brought up to todays code and so did the transmission lines and local > grids. So the solution is to pour billions of dollars into a new electrical system so Osama can say he was an environmentally friendly President? I would guess then you don't mind paying $400.00 per month for electricity in the summer. Power goes out whether you use too much electricity or not. A good storm can take out electric power for days. Should I use up my vacation time during those storms to be environmentally friendly instead of firing up my Toyota that gets 35 mph. to get to work?? SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy >> >> one [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > would guess then you don't mind paying $400.00 per month for electricity > in the summer. Try $700.00, $400.00 I would have JUMPED at. > Power goes out whether you use too much electricity or not. A good storm > can take out electric power for days. Should I use up my vacation time > during those storms to be environmentally friendly instead of firing up > my Toyota that gets 35 mph. to get to work?? Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo tracks. And if you Upgrade your Grid your power is LESS likely to go out. Down here there is a bill to place the GRID underground so that storms will not knock out power, Florida did it. > >> >> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to > >> >> buy [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > there is a bill to place the GRID underground so that storms will not knock > out power, Florida did it. You are talking about a massive job there, and quite costly as well. I think it would be easier to just do what we are doing; drive our gas powered cars while we look for reasonable alternatives. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> >> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to >> >> >> buy [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > think it would be easier to just do what we are doing; drive our gas > powered cars while we look for reasonable alternatives. Well that's a thought but what's "Reasonable"? to me and you? We were without power for almost a month in some places after IKE. 2 1/2 weeks here and we were on the clean side of IKE over towards Beaumont three months, Galveston Island also on the clean side four months for water and sewer and power to the west end of the island furthest away from the eye of IKE. > >> Try $700.00, $400.00 I would have JUMPED at. > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Island also on the clean side four months for water and sewer and power to > the west end of the island furthest away from the eye of IKE. Reasonable is affordable fuel that we can slowly merge into our current system. Reasonable is having data collected for many years with trial models. Cleveland borders Lake Erie. As such, it's always windy here. In fact, statistically, we are windier than the windy city--Chicago. So, they wanted to put up some giant windmills, but the Governor stopped short of going through with the project until all research results were in. They found out it was not economically sound, and presented a host of problems we don't have with our current electric system. A knee jerk reaction would have been to invest these millions of dollars, and then worry about the problems later as we did with ethanol. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo >> tracks. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> knock >> out power, Florida did it. > You are talking about a massive job there, and quite costly as well. I > think it would be easier to just do what we are doing; drive our gas > powered cars while we look for reasonable alternatives. Really that MASSIVE huh? More massive than when Henry Ford started mass producing the model T when there were almost NO paved roads or gas stations in America? MORE massive than building the first railroads and the trans-continental railroad. MORE massive than that Ray? IMPOSSIBLE as the CEO of GM claims? > >> Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo > >> tracks. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > trans-continental railroad. MORE massive than that Ray? IMPOSSIBLE as the > CEO of GM claims? Henry Ford didn't have to dismantle an infrastructure and erect a totally different one. Apples and Oranges. What great benefit would we get by restructuring our transportation system? Nothing, unless you are one of these environmentalist who believe in doing anything to make the air cleaner. If you want to talk about a vehicle where I can travel 50 miles for 40 cents of fuel, now you got my attention. Now I can say it's worth all the growing pains. But for electric cars to work, they would have to be less weight which means less protection for the commuters. I see no real advantage here, and am quite happy with the transportation systems we have. The only thing that could make it better is cheaper gasoline. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo >> >> tracks. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> trans-continental railroad. MORE massive than that Ray? IMPOSSIBLE as the >> CEO of GM claims? > Henry Ford didn't have to dismantle an infrastructure and erect a > totally different one. Apples and Oranges. Why must they dismantle anything? It will wither and die of its own accord. < What great benefit would we get by restructuring our transportation system? Nothing, unless you are > one of these environmentalist who believe in doing anything to make the > air cleaner. When it comes in, you get a great deal greater safety, faster travel, and YES cleaner. AND the REAL point is CHEAPER! >>> >> Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo >>> >> tracks. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > When it comes in, you get a great deal greater safety, faster travel, > and YES cleaner. AND the REAL point is CHEAPER! Not to mention it takes a lot of autos off the roads. >>> >> Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo >>> >> tracks. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > When it comes in, you get a great deal greater safety, faster travel, > and YES cleaner. AND the REAL point is CHEAPER! MB> Not to mention it takes a lot of autos off the roads. Ray can't see the benefits of anything but gas guzzlers. Besides being faster, cheaper, and safer, there are many psychological benefits. Not having the STRESS of dealing with congested traffic and CRAZY drivers. Yes cleaner air. There are so many ways the costs of travel will be lower. You just need to see past the tip of your nose. > >>> >> Liken it to high speed rail you cannot run high-speed trains on cargo > >>> >> tracks. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > cleaner air. There are so many ways the costs of travel will be lower. You > just need to see past the tip of your nose. Are we talking electric cars here or mass transportation? If you are talking mass transportation, we worked decades to get away from that antiquated system. If you are talking about electric cars, they are not safer or cheaper to drive. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> Ray can't see the benefits of anything but gas guzzlers. Besides >> being [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> You >> just need to see past the tip of your nose. > Are we talking electric cars here or mass transportation? If you are > talking mass transportation, we worked decades to get away from that > antiquated system. If you are talking about electric cars, they are not > safer or cheaper to drive. Actually both, Ray. We never should have gotten away from that system. Look at traffic. Look at the number of accidents. Look at the number of lawyers and quack doctors. As to the electric cars like the Eliicar it IS both safer and cheaper. But we are just starting on new technology. It will have to evolve. I see a system where people don't even own cars. Where transportation is cheap. You just call for a car and one shows up and takes you where you want to go. Then high speed underground rail to either replace or seriously augment air travel. > >> Ray can't see the benefits of anything but gas guzzlers. Besides > >> being [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > you where you want to go. Then high speed underground rail to either replace > or seriously augment air travel. I know there are places like NYC where people don't have cars, but there is no way you are going to convince me that ordering a car to pick you up and take you where you want to go is just as cost effective as owning your own car. My life is not different than many. We rush here, rush there, and it always seems there are not enough hours in a day. I can't picture allocating a couple more hours to use public transportation. If I have to go to the store or pharmacy later in the evening because of something I must have, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be waiting for a car, or running to a bus stop. I want to get in my own vehicle and complete the chore in a matter of a few minutes. Most Americans feel this why which is why public transportation is limited. When they develop a cost effective electric car that is just as good as our gasoline cars, then I will be interested; most people would. But until that time comes, you can't force technology. It comes on it's own time. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> Ray can't see the benefits of anything but gas guzzlers. Besides >> >> being [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> replace >> or seriously augment air travel. > I know there are places like NYC where people don't have cars, but there > is no way you are going to convince me that ordering a car to pick you > up and take you where you want to go is just as cost effective as owning > your own car. I worked out of my company's Park Evenue offices for some years. MOST people who live in Manhattan either don't own a care or rarely drive the ones they have. When you add ALL the costs of owning a car it would be cheaper. Insurance, accidents, injuries, medical bills. Not to mention the other charges. > When they develop a cost effective electric car that is just as good as > our gasoline cars, then I will be interested; most people would. But > until that time comes, you can't force technology. It comes on it's own > time. The electric car WILL become cost affordable WHEN they are in mass production. One article suggests that the Eliica COULD be sold for $35K if they could make and sell a million units a year. > >> >> Ray can't see the benefits of anything but gas guzzlers. Besides > >> >> being [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > production. One article suggests that the Eliica COULD be sold for $35K if > they could make and sell a million units a year. But I purchased my Toyota for $15,000. It's a 2005, but only had 13,000 miles on it when I picked it up. If I bought one of these electric cars, it would cost me $20,000 more, and I would still have a high electric bill at the end of the month. And how reliable are those vehicles? Would they come with a 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty like the car I own now? SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> >> Ray can't see the benefits of anything but gas guzzlers. Besides >> >> >> being [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > vehicles? Would they come with a 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty > like the car I own now? NONE of the cars did in 1977 it was 12/12 warranty........... and came with Firestone tires......... > >> > When they develop a cost effective electric car that is just as good as > >> > our gasoline cars, then I will be interested; most people would. But [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > NONE of the cars did in 1977 it was 12/12 warranty........... and came with > Firestone tires......... Many American made cars are still three years and 30,000 miles. That is of course unless you purchase some sort of extended plan. All Japanese cars have the 100,000 bumper to bumper. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> >> > When they develop a cost effective electric car that is just as good as >> >> > our gasoline cars, then I will be interested; most people would. But [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of course unless you purchase some sort of extended plan. All Japanese > cars have the 100,000 bumper to bumper. Not so in 2000 I bought a brand new off the show room Toyota Echo that had 36/36 and for two more grand I'd get the 100,000 and that car had ten recalls for the brakes, I called Japan because of one of those recalls. MB The early Civic didn't it had a Honda 750 motorcycle engine sideways with the shifter on the dash in the middle and it came in Lemon yellow! And it was 12/12. My 2003 Buick had a 36/36 warranty on it, WITH ZERO recalls. > >> NONE of the cars did in 1977 it was 12/12 warranty........... and came > >> with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 36/36 and for two more grand I'd get the 100,000 and that car had ten recalls > for the brakes, I called Japan because of one of those recalls. You are talking about nine and one-half years ago MB. What are they offering these days? SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy >> one >> then most other people will have one also and understand. Double >> Negatives > > It doesn't work that way if I am "forced" to buy one as Hussein desires. Don't worry - I will INSIST you get a HUMMER! >>> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy >>> one [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Don't worry - I will INSIST you get a HUMMER! Nah my wife cannot get into one, they have them here for around five grand. >>> Well a little common sense goes a long way Ray, IF you can afford to buy >>> one [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Don't worry - I will INSIST you get a HUMMER! MB>Nah my wife cannot get into one, they have them here for around five grand. Get a sling and a high powered electric winch. ELECTRIC CARS IN THE 90's > Nobody wanted them! Manufacturers of automobiles only produce selling > models. There are only a handful of environmentalists who will put > their money where their mouths are. And for the life of me, I can't see > calling my boss in the morning and explaining to him how I can't get to > work because of a power outage the night before. Of course nobody wanted them. They were slower than hell, barely could make it to the grocery store and back and took a WEEK to recharge. They were also Uggggggleeeee! They didn't have to be but were deliberately made to turn off buyers. And add to that the price tags. 10 X a regular car. The M - EV was a really nice car - what worried GM most about the car is that everyone who was allowed to lease one wanted to BUY IT. They loved that car. Even with an astronomical price tag. You keep hammering on the most EASY problems to solve. If electric cars catch on, which they are likely to with the new technology, then the boss will be in the same boat. I am sure recharging stations will exist to get you up with enough juice to make it to work and plug in there. > ELECTRIC CARS IN THE 90's > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > recharging stations will exist to get you up with enough juice to make it to > work and plug in there. I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not thousands of dollars every month because all of his employees need a charge. But what does one do on the highway when there is a traffic jam caused by an accident? They close the highway down for hours. Imagine the power usage of your AC unit while you sit in traffic. Do we just stall in the middle of the highway because we ran out of juice? SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >> ELECTRIC CARS IN THE 90's >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > power usage of your AC unit while you sit in traffic. Do we just stall > in the middle of the highway because we ran out of juice? Ray, your being asinine try a solar charger. > I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because > of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > power usage of your AC unit while you sit in traffic. Do we just stall > in the middle of the highway because we ran out of juice? What does your employer do during weather? Like an ice storm? Tornados? I can't help that we have REFUSED to use public transportation OR to even discuss changing our scheme of transportation in the past 50 years. Solution? Is computerized platforms that run on electrical power. The design of the actual GRID needs some engineering. Has to be a way to power the cars other than batteries. Slots in the road. Overhead. Something. But internal combustion HAS to go. With GPS et al, it seems that there is no need for us to even own cars. Just call for a "cab" and tell it where you want to go. The supermarket or Aunt Hazel in Chicago. Then you just relax for the trip. No car accidents. No traffic jams. No crazy drivers. > > I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because > > of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > The supermarket or Aunt Hazel in Chicago. Then you just relax for the trip. > No car accidents. No traffic jams. No crazy drivers. I forget who it was now, perhaps John F Kennedy who pledged "A chicken in every pot. A car in every driveway." Driving your own automobile provides independence. It takes us to where we want to go in our busy world in the time alloted. "A car in every driveway" was a milestone. Why go backwards? There is quite a difference between you taking a bus and me taking a bus. The winters here get so cold that it's downright dangerous to be outside for long periods of time. Sitting in that snow covered bus shelter is of little help. We have a great transportation system in these automobiles. But there will always be people that find fault with any good thing. Eventually, combustion engines will be a thing of the past. But advancements and technology take time. And if we look back at the history of our automobile, it advances all the time. But nothing is overnight. In the meantime, I say drill, drill, drill. Anytime we try to force things that don't come by on their own timeframe, it almost always ends up a problem. Just look at this silly ethanol scam. Did nothing for pollution. Did nothing to ease our dependency on oil. All it did was increase the cost of groceries by about 35%. And some say it ruins the engines in our cars as well. That's what we get for our knee jerk reaction of gasoline prices. SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. >>>I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because >>>of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I forget who it was now, perhaps John F Kennedy who pledged "A chicken > in every pot. A car in every driveway." It was President Herbert Hoover who said, "A chicken in every pot. A car in every driveway." President Hoover also said, "It is just as important that business keep out of government as that government keep out of business." and, "Once upon a time my political opponents honored me as possessing the fabulous intellectual and economic power by which I created a worldwide depression all by myself." > Driving your own automobile provides independence. It takes us to where > we want to go in our busy world in the time alloted. "A car in every [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > engines in our cars as well. That's what we get for our knee jerk > reaction of gasoline prices. > >>>I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because > >>>of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > It was President Herbert Hoover who said, "A chicken in every pot. A car > in every driveway." And I thank you for the correction. :--) SignatureBarock Insane Obama: The greatest joke America ever played on itself. > In article <lcM_l.3$NF6.1@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, > > I forget who it was now, perhaps John F Kennedy who pledged "A chicken > in every pot. A car in every driveway." Try maybe FDR. > Driving your own automobile provides independence. It takes us to where > we want to go in our busy world in the time alloted. "A car in every > driveway" was a milestone. Why go backwards? Because time marches on Ray. > There is quite a difference between you taking a bus and me taking a > bus. The winters here get so cold that it's downright dangerous to be > outside for long periods of time. Sitting in that snow covered bus > shelter is of little help. Don't lecture ME, I grew up in Wisconsin! > We have a great transportation system in these automobiles. But there > will always be people that find fault with any good thing. Eventually, > combustion engines will be a thing of the past. But advancements and > technology take time. And if we look back at the history of our > automobile, it advances all the time. But nothing is overnight. The automobile's day is about to end. Something new is coming. You remind me of the a.sholes who saw the first CARS and said; "GET A HORSE!" > In the meantime, I say drill, drill, drill. Anytime we try to force > things that don't come by on their own timeframe, it almost always ends [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > engines in our cars as well. That's what we get for our knee jerk > reaction of gasoline prices. Yes we can DRILL for the short range. But we need to go nuclear and have electric vehicles. >> In article <lcM_l.3$NF6.1@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, >> >> I forget who it was now, perhaps John F Kennedy who pledged "A chicken >> in every pot. A car in every driveway." > > Try maybe FDR. It was President Herbert Hoover who said, "A chicken in every pot. A car in every driveway." President Hoover also said, "It is just as important that business keep out of government as that government keep out of business." and, "Once upon a time my political opponents honored me as possessing the fabulous intellectual and economic power by which I created a worldwide depression all by myself." >> Driving your own automobile provides independence. It takes us to where >> we want to go in our busy world in the time alloted. "A car in every [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Yes we can DRILL for the short range. But we need to go nuclear and > have electric vehicles. >>> In article <lcM_l.3$NF6.1@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, >>> >>> I forget who it was now, perhaps John F Kennedy who pledged "A chicken >>> in every pot. A car in every driveway." >> >> Try maybe FDR. > It was President Herbert Hoover who said, "A chicken in every pot. A car > in every driveway." Correct,. My error. > President Hoover also said, "It is just as important that business keep > out of government as that government keep out of business." > and, "Once upon a time my political opponents honored me as possessing the > fabulous intellectual and economic power by which I created a worldwide > depression all by myself." However as others have pointed out, by 1930 almost nobodyhad either cars or chickens. >> > I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because >> > of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I forget who it was now, perhaps John F Kennedy who pledged "A chicken > in every pot. A car in every driveway." http://www.presidentsusa.net/1928slogan.html Ray you should lay off the beer today, switch to schnapps > Driving your own automobile provides independence. It takes us to where > we want to go in our busy world in the time alloted. "A car in every [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > outside for long periods of time. Sitting in that snow covered bus > shelter is of little help. REALLY it's a 100 degress outside right now and for the next week at least > We have a great transportation system in these automobiles. But there > will always be people that find fault with any good thing. Eventually, > combustion engines will be a thing of the past. But advancements and > technology take time. And if we look back at the history of our > automobile, it advances all the time. But nothing is overnight. I have afriend who is working on Natural Gas, we have a NG gas station about two miles from here, but it costs five grand to convert. Burns cleaner > In the meantime, I say drill, drill, drill. Anytime we try to force > things that don't come by on their own timeframe, it almost always ends [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > engines in our cars as well. That's what we get for our knee jerk > reaction of gasoline prices. >>> I'm sure my employer would be delighted with that: missing work because >>> of a power outage. Increasing his electric bill by hundreds, if not [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > engines in our cars as well. That's what we get for our knee jerk > reaction of gasoline prices. The "chicken in every pot and a car in every driveway" was a Republican ad campaign in the 1928 election for Herbert Hoover. He won the election and two years later, Americans were walking along unpaved highways gathering dandelion greens and other edible weeds to keep their children from starving. > Well - apparently NOBODY! While Fords is thinking about thinking > about thinking about an electric car in the FAR FAR FAR future, GM [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > miles. WOW the NEW General Motors. Chrysler still doesn't know what > an electric car IS. Where did you get the range of 350 miles? The article you cited listed two ranges - 120 miles or 200 miles depending on the model (another article claimed a range of 190 miles at 60 mph). This would be followed by a ten hour recharge. I can see this working for a commuter car, but not for one that you would take on a trip. No mention was made of cost, but almost 1300 pounds of batteries can't be cheap. You need to go read the Wikipedia article on the GM EV-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1). Ten years before "Elicca" it pretty much had the same performance. From the Wikipedia article: "The first generation EV1s used lead-acid batteries in 1996 (as model year 1997) and a second generation batch with nickel metal hydride (NiMH) batteries in 1999. Some of the Gen 1 EV1s were refurbished and upgraded to Panasonic lead-acid batteries. "The Gen 1 cars got 55 to 75 miles (90 to 120 km) per charge with the Delco-manufactured lead-acid batteries, 75 to 100 miles (120 to 160 km) with the Gen 2 Panasonic lead-acid batteries, and 75 to 150 miles (120 to 240 km) per charge with Gen 2 Ovonic nickel-metal hydride batteries. Recharging took as much as eight hours for a full charge (although one could get an 80% charge in one to three hours). The battery pack consisted of twenty-six 12 V, 60 Ah lead-acid batteries holding 67.4 MJ (18.7 kWh) of energy, or twenty-six 13.2-volt, 77 Ah nickel-metal hydride batteries which held 95.1 MJ (26.4 kWh) of energy. "A modified EV1 prototype set a land speed record for production electric vehicles of 183 mph (295 km/h) in 1994." The problem is, the cars had a lot of problems, were expensive to make, and had lmited utility. It seems to me the "Elicca" shares these same problems. I suspect the most practical recent electric vehicles were the electric Ford Rangers offered in the late 1990s/early 2000's. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV . It terms of practicallity, it blows that ridiculous "Elicca" limo thing into the weeds. Ed > If you can, catch the INFOCUS show on HD-NET. The 8 wheeled car > is amazing. It WIPED the track with a Porsche on a drag race. The [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Look at the "TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE." >> Well - apparently NOBODY! While Fords is thinking about thinking about >> thinking about an electric car in the FAR FAR FAR future, GM and Chrysler [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hour recharge. I can see this working for a commuter car, but not for one > that you would take on a trip. First of all the article is based on 2003 information. Lots has happened in the pats 6 years. IF you saw the documentary on HD-Net (Infocus) much has been improved since and they are getting 300+ mile range, however even there, since then they have been getting NEW batteries from China that are much more efficient. Yes I know it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.. Can't be done. Not for 200 years. Yet when I think of driving to go visit cousins up north, I don't drive for 90 hours. I generally crap out sometimes before I have driven 10 hours. I could have my wife take over. But generally have found a night in a nice motel works better. Again with a bit of engineering the batteries can be on a removable sled and exchanged for fresh batteries. I know, I know JOHNNY HOT ROD will want to mess with them to get MORE and MORE SPEED.... But does Johnny hot rod need something faster than 250 MPH? Does Johnny HOT ROD need something faster than being able to blow away a Porsche race car? Are 99% of the people just like Johnny Hot Rod who will burn up battery packs? Johnny wants 500 MPH. Where is he gonna drive over 250? Maybe at 5,000 MPH car? Give me a break. The same kind of crazy sh.t was said about having to feed a car with gasoline every 200 miles when you could ride your horse for DAYS without stopping. What is it with electric car fanactics? Do you guys drink some sort of wackho koolaid? I never said electric cars were impossible. In fact, I pointed out that the Electric Ranger Ford built a decade ago was more practical than the ridiculous electric limo thing you were touting. You completely gloss over all the problem companies have had with electric cars. Yes batteries are better now, but they are still the weak link. Heavy, expensive, and full of toxic materials. Battery life is still questionable. And the "new" batteries that work so well in staged demonstartions don't work so well in 100+ degree heat in the summer or -20 degree cold in the winter or after they are 5 years old. And then there is the whole problem of cost. And you also sort of ignore what would happen to the electric power grid it suuddenly we added a few million electric cars to the power demands.... I think electric cars have a niche. The problem is, are the potential volumes large enough to make them attractive to manufacturers that can actually make them cheaply enough to make them practical for the people that would find them attractive? Where do you see them fitting into the overall transporation picture? I suspect that for most people where the electric cars would be the "right" solution, good mass transit would be an even better solution. It is not like electric cars are a new thing. People have been promoting them as the next great thing for as long as their have been cars. You seem to think that a purpose built exibition vehicle proves they are now practical. But if this is the case, wouldn't http://www.roadsters.com/750/ prove we should be driving turbine cars.... Ed >>> Well - apparently NOBODY! While Fords is thinking about thinking >>> about thinking about an electric car in the FAR FAR FAR future, GM [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > crazy sh.t was said about having to feed a car with gasoline every > 200 miles when you could ride your horse for DAYS without stopping. > What is it with electric car fanactics? Do you guys drink some sort of > wackho koolaid? Got something better? Maybe a V-34 that gets 40 gallons to a mile? How about a HYDROGEN car? You know, the kind that does a HINDENBURG when you set off a spark near it. > I never said electric cars were impossible. In fact, I pointed out that > the Electric Ranger Ford built a decade ago was more practical than the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > also sort of ignore what would happen to the electric power grid it > suuddenly we added a few million electric cars to the power demands.... Turbine cars? You are seriously joking. As to the batteries NOT WORKING - you can tell the Japanese that it is IMPOSSIBLE it won't work when it is HOT out! > It is not like electric cars are a new thing. People have been promoting > them as the next great thing for as long as their have been cars. You seem > to think that a purpose built exibition vehicle proves they are now > practical. But if this is the case, wouldn't http://www.roadsters.com/750/ > prove we should be driving turbine cars.... Do you REALLY think a JET engine on a car is practical? Talk about global warming. And you want to drive one of those? REALLY? Where? Do you think you'll NEED to do 1800 MPH on the road? The electric car at 250 MPH is more than a bit of overkill. But the prototype proves that the electric car is more than an average competitor for the GAS HOGS on the road today.Don't get me wrong, I have had cars I love. Like my 1968 AMX. But I have known since I was a kid that we were eventually going to have to get off gasoline and use electric motors. I am not a blind follower of Al Gore, I just realize that the electric motor is many times more energy efficient that internal combustion. You DO realize that a gasoline engine WASTES as much as 65% of its energy getting it to the ground don't you? It wastes 45% in the automatic transmission alone. And that is with the VERY BEST automatics present technology permits. Yes I feel that the prototype does prove the electric car is HERE - NOW! BUT I fully expect the BEAN COUNTERS at GM to say "NO!" I can't tell you how may colossal BLUNDERS I have witnessed in my lifetime. Chances are 95% you are reading this on a flat screen and NOT a CRT monitor. It was invented by an American who took it to EVERY company making computers in America and called "INSANE" by ALL of them! The trouble is that when you have HARVARD BUSINESS GENIUSES and you ask them about a new idea, do exactly the opposite of what they tell you. Those CLOWNS couldn't find their dick with a flashlight, a road map and a troop of Girl Scouts to help them. They are the MOST totally CLUELESS a.sholes on the planet. That movie should have been named; "Dumb and Dumber and an MBA!" They OWN the franchise on stupidity. What will we be driving in a hundred years? Probably something solar. But for sure NOT a HUMMER! > Do you REALLY think a JET engine on a car is practical? Chrysler built relatively practical turbine powered cars in the 60's. THey were actually a lot more rpactical than the EV-1's but suffered the same fate for mostly the same reason - too expensive to mass produce. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car . > Talk about global warming. The Chrysler turbine car could run on almost anything - even vegatable oil. Seems like a perfect way to help fight global warming by using more bio-fuels. In the early 70's Ford was within months of introducing a turbine engine for use in heavy trucks. The programs was eventually canceled becasue the ceramic regenerators could not be mass produced at an attractive cost http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=14119. > And you want to drive one of those? REALLY? Where? Do you think > you'll NEED to do 1800 MPH on the road? I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of using a purpose built demonstation vehicle as an example to prove that road cars should use the same method of propulsion. You were using that Japanese electric car demo vehicle as proof that electric cars are practical, but all I saw was just a single purpose demostration vehicle that proved nothing about practical road cars. Ed >> Do you REALLY think a JET engine on a car is practical? > Chrysler built relatively practical turbine powered cars in the 60's. THey > were actually a lot more rpactical than the EV-1's but suffered the same > fate for mostly the same reason - too expensive to mass produce. See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car . Did you ever SEE the car run? Talk about gas guzzlers. Fuel consulption was measured in GALLONS PER MILE. AND jet fuel is expensive. >> Talk about global warming. > The Chrysler turbine car could run on almost anything - even vegatable > oil. Seems like a perfect way to help fight global warming by using more > bio-fuels. In the early 70's Ford was within months of introducing a > turbine engine for use in heavy trucks. The programs was eventually > canceled becasue the ceramic regenerators could not be mass produced at an > attractive cost Nope it needed JP-4 to run. You're thinking of a later car and a Ford, not the Chrysler Turbine. > http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=14119. >> And you want to drive one of those? REALLY? Where? Do you think you'll >> NEED to do 1800 MPH on the road? > I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of using a purpose built > demonstation vehicle as an example to prove that road cars should use the > same method of propulsion. You were using that Japanese electric car demo > vehicle as proof that electric cars are practical, but all I saw was just > a single purpose demostration vehicle that proved nothing about practical > road cars. The fact is that the Eliica IS being hand built and some are out there being tested. AGAIN - if you saw the NHK documentary on the car that is running on HD-Net you'd see it is NOT just a tinker toy. You might know that Mitsubishi is talking about building it in numbers. But there are several roaming the streets in Japan. Expensive? Sure! ANY hand built car is going to be pricey! But it won't be with mass production. I am sure the final product will NOT have 8 drive wheels. I am also sure it will NOT do 250 MPH. But I am also sure it will be moderately priced and have as good or greater a range than most internal combustion cars. But it will be a much better car to drive and own. > Well - apparently NOBODY! The real answer is everybody who bought into the OIL WILL LAST FOREVER, then when it was found out that there were limited amounts and the nay Sayers told us not to worry it was a "campaign trick" When we didn't listen to the scientists who told us how long it took for the dead animals to decay and turn into oil and gas. Oh we listened to them about diamonds it took millions of years of pressure on coal bit to make a diamond, but all that sh.t about oil, well they were wrong just like the climate change winter in Ohio and Blistering heat in the south. For the simple minded: compare the oil to the amount of air on this planet, keep polluting it and which runs out next? You need two things to run a engine Air and Fuel. Why do you think the Navy has switched from Heavy oil to Nuclear? Because "WE" are closer to running out than you think. Maybe another five years ten at the most. "krp" <krp34@verizon.net> wrote in message news:gnRZl.2802$u86.768@nwrddc01.gnilink.net... > Well - apparently NOBODY! The real answer is everybody who bought into the OIL WILL LAST FOREVER, then when it was found out that there were limited amounts and the nay Sayers told us not to worry it was a "campaign trick" When we didn't listen to the scientists who told us how long it took for the dead animals to decay and turn into oil and gas. Oh we listened to them about diamonds it took millions of years of pressure on coal bit to make a diamond, but all that sh.t about oil, well they were wrong just like the climate change winter in Ohio and Blistering heat in the south. For the simple minded: compare the oil to the amount of air on this planet, keep polluting it and which runs out next? You need two things to run a engine Air and Fuel. Why do you think the Navy has switched from Heavy oil to Nuclear? Because "WE" are closer to running out than you think. Maybe another five years ten at the most. _____________________________________________________________________________________ I seem to remember the phrase "untold resources of oil reserves" crank your air conditioner down to a cool 72 degrees carrier, the air conditioner for cool comfort. > Well - apparently NOBODY! The real answer is everybody who bought into the OIL WILL LAST FOREVER, then when it was found out that there were limited amounts and the nay Sayers told us not to worry it was a "campaign trick" When we didn't listen to the scientists who told us how long it took for the dead animals to decay and turn into oil and gas. Oh we listened to them about diamonds it took millions of years of pressure on coal bit to make a diamond, but all that sh.t about oil, well they were wrong just like the climate change winter in Ohio and Blistering heat in the south. For the simple minded: compare the oil to the amount of air on this planet, keep polluting it and which runs out next? You need two things to run a engine Air and Fuel. Why do you think the Navy has switched from Heavy oil to Nuclear? Because "WE" are closer to running out than you think. Maybe another five years ten at the most. ================ Mark did you know that there were some people (Other than the Amish) who stubbornly refused to get cars and rode their horse as their transportation all the way into the 1970's? We have the same luddite mentality about new forms of propulsion, especially electric cars and trains and nuclear energy. These a.shole will live like it was 1958 well into the 22nd century. They just CANNOT adapt to new technologies. It TERRIFIES them. You see it lots in Geezers here in Florida. They are afraid of computers. >> Well - apparently NOBODY! > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > just CANNOT adapt to new technologies. It TERRIFIES them. You see it lots in > Geezers here in Florida. They are afraid of computers. They still use horse and buggy today but the went soft on electricity and a telephone. My brother in law lives in Chambersburg PA. They still paint symbols on the barn to protect the animals from evil spirits. |
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