Car Forum / Chevrolet / Chevrolet Corvette / February 2004
Opinions on restoring a '63
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News - 26 Feb 2004 02:11 GMT Well, I'll throw open the can of worm here...I am knee deep in restoring my '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in November of 1962) and it's been sitting in my garage for over 20-years while I worked myself up to restoring it. We just got the body off of it a couple of weeks ago and in all honesty everything is in very good shape. It's a "California Car" so even after 40 years the frame is darned near rust free. There are no "big" issues with this car. It needs a cleaning up, repaint, new interior and replacement of all of the rubber, seals and such. Time consuming and nickle-and-dime costly to be sure, but nothing I can't get done. But it does bring up a question: How nuts should I get?
I do not intend this car to be a trailer queen. I intend to drive it. I'm not going to thrash it or race it and I intend to be careful with it, but to me, the fun is driving the darned thing. I've read several restoration books and they talk about getting stencils so you can get the right frame markings and such. There are restoration places like Corvette Central that will sell you correctly-numbered replacement parts. I can see the rationale for doing this is that's what you're into. I'm not. I think what I want is a car that looks good, drives well and is "pretty close to stock but probably not perfect." But then I look at what I've got (it's serial number 2282 out of a run of some 21,000) and think that maybe I should go the whole nine yards. Especially now that I've got the frame off.
Like I say, I'm just in a quandry and am looking for "input."
Thanks
Steve G - 26 Feb 2004 02:46 GMT In my opinion if you have a very original, numbers matching one owner car car it would be almost criminal to not restore it to stock, as near to original as feasible. There's lots of pieced together cars out there to have fun with without taking a pristine original and modifying it up. The stencilling on the frame and the paint dabs on the driveshafts etc. may be overkill and if it's going to be driven they will wear off in time anyways, but keeping the car essentially original is pretty important. One thing that I would do is to keep everything that you take off the car that is not going back on. They may be of value someday to a future owner, hence of $ value to you. If it were me and I had the body off the frame I would clean and paint the frame and undercarriage components that are supposed to be painted, clean and clear coat those not intended to be painted. Overhaul the drivetrain as req'd keeping all of the external visible parts original (I wouldn't worry if the pistons or camshaft, or gear cluster in the trans were correct or correctly coded, but the block and case are important). If I had a 250 or 300 hp car and wanted to sweeten it up I'd replace the heads and intake/carb and set the originals aside somewhere.
Some of what I did what depend how the car was originally optioned. If it was a fuelie or a 340 hp I with a deep set of gears I would want it back as close to original as possible. If it was a 250 or 300 hp I'd probably do some mods to improve the power/fun aspect, but would retain all of the original parts. Don't know what I'd do if it had a 'glide in it. I had a 64 coupe that originally was a 300 hp glide car that somebody had converted to a 4 sp. I tracked down all the parts and converted it back to an auto, and it was absolutely no fun to drive after that. Long and the short, build it to suit yourself without doing anything not reversible and keep all of the original components (within reason, rad hoses etc excepted). My opinion for what it's worth. Steve G.
> Well, I'll throw open the can of worm here...I am knee deep in restoring my > '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks jds - 26 Feb 2004 02:58 GMT what the hell, the frame is already off. do it right. doesnt have to be ncrs perfect. on the other hand , those cars arent getting any more plentiful, and are worth a lot of money done right. do what makes you happy, but on a car like that, i wouldnt do any mods that cant be undone. worth more stock than modded. by all means drive it, lol. thats what these cars are for. course i only own vettes, so they are daily drivers for me.
Empty3 - 26 Feb 2004 03:18 GMT > Well, I'll throw open the can of worm here...I am knee deep in restoring my > '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks Though I don't recall the exact year, a 60s Corvette (Stingray body style) was going for 95K at the Houston Corvette show. Owner wouldn't budge, based on a conversation I overheard. Maybe this price will influence your mind as to which route to go.
WayneC - 26 Feb 2004 03:57 GMT > Well, I'll throw open the can of worm here...I am knee deep in restoring my > '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks If you're really not into the hobby and don't see yourself getting excited about a "correct" restoration, why not consider shopping yours around at local Corvette clubs, etc and see if you can make a trade for a nice driver. Or sell yours outright and purchase a non-original driver. If the car is really original and rust-free, it'll attract a lot of attention from Corvette enthusiasts who want just such a project, and a trade will do two things: preserve an original car and get you on the road more quickly. Probably would also save you money.
You've stated that you need to do the paint, interior, weatherstripping, and rubber (I assume that includes suspension bushings, brakes, etc) so if you also freshen the driveline you really ARE doing a complete restoration... it's just a matter of whether you want to take the trouble to do one that correctly returns the car to "as new" condition, with exactly the same paint, finishes, and markings as it originally came with... that requires a lot of research, time, and extra expense.
CardsFan - 26 Feb 2004 04:56 GMT > Well, I'll throw open the can of worm here...I am knee deep in restoring my > '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks Firstl, I'm jealous.
Second, I don't know what your resources are, but restoring it to as original as possible within your resources would be what I'd do.
Third, after the restore, I'd shop it and find the highest price, sell it after carefully vetting (nice pun) the buyer, and then buy a lightly used C5 and drive that. I think cars like the one you have deserve to be saved for prosterity, and the newer ones are more fun to drive anyway. A '63 to me is a museum piece. But that's one man's view.
AJM '93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp
Bob G. - 27 Feb 2004 15:09 GMT >Third, after the restore, I'd shop it and find the highest price, sell it >after carefully vetting (nice pun) the buyer, and then buy a lightly used C5 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >AJM >'93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp ========================================= LOL....I guess I am the other man...with the complete opposite view.... At least when it comes to FUN.... my 64 ragtop or 72 ragtop are BOTH a hell of a lot more fun to drive then My 95 6 sp or by brothers 99 Ragtop... have to agree however that neither is 1/4 the car the C5 is... just a hell of a lot more fun....
NOW...back to the original posters question.... I am 61 years old and lost my Dad 2 years ago and I WOULD NEVER ...NEVER sell a Corvette that he owned... just would not even think about it....
How I would approach the car would depend on what I WANTED from the car...
The original poster says he wants a driver...that is great....but I still would pay attention to detail and rebuild everything ..I just would not go overboard and try to duplicate frame markings, duplicating overspray etc....
Damn I wish my Dad left me a car like that...BUT to be honest my Dad left me with everything I needed to be succesful and to enjoy life... and I would gladely give away all my toys just to get him back...
Bob Griffiths 68 SS 396 Chevelle 64 & 72 Corvette Rag tops 76 79 & 95 Corvette Coupes
CardsFan - 27 Feb 2004 20:04 GMT > >Third, after the restore, I'd shop it and find the highest price, sell it > >after carefully vetting (nice pun) the buyer, and then buy a lightly used C5 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > brothers 99 Ragtop... have to agree however that neither is 1/4 the > car the C5 is... just a hell of a lot more fun.... It's subjective, I guess. I've driven a C2 convertible, and it was OK, but I prefer my '93. I say that admitting I could never afford a C2 in the same condition mine is in, so maybe I'm rationalizing.
> NOW...back to the original posters question.... I am 61 years old and > lost my Dad 2 years ago and I WOULD NEVER ...NEVER sell a Corvette > that he owned... just would not even think about it.... I didn't consider the situation from that angle.
> How I would approach the car would depend on what I WANTED from the > car... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would not go overboard and try to duplicate frame markings, > duplicating overspray etc.... I'm too spoiled, wanting things like A/C, a better stereo, etc. I said what I did because the orginal poster said he wanted a driver, and my position was sort of like Tom's in another post. The guy has a very special car that I'd rather see fully restored and lightly used afterward. I know that's none of my business.
> Damn I wish my Dad left me a car like that...BUT to be honest my Dad > left me with everything I needed to be succesful and to enjoy life... > and I would gladely give away all my toys just to get him back... Sure. Me too. It'll be 4 years on March 16 that my father died. I did sell his big ol' Buick LeSabre to one of my first cousins. But I miss him, and Mom, every day.
AJM '93 Ruby coupe, 6 sp
(60s and sunny here on Sunday, they say. Time to take out the top.)
Tom in Missouri - 26 Feb 2004 06:31 GMT First, while the intentions to restore are wonderful, you may have destroyed something even more important - originality.
I suggest you ask this question on the NCRS Tech Board at http://www.ncrs.org and see what they suggest.
Then make your decision. It is your car. But basically it is like having a lost Rembrandt than needs restoring and someone with no guidance can easily destroy the value rather than increase it.
You want opinions, here is mine. Decide what you want to do with the car. If you want to preserve it in your father's memory and keep it as a valuable family heirloom, then you must restore it using all the right guidelines and parts.
If you are not interested in that, then consider selling it. Restoration the correct way can easily run $20,000 to $30,000. It can take a long time. It requires a lot of effort. If you do it, figure $20,000 minimum and at least 2 years of your life and a certain amount of imperfection. Depending on the car, all will be reflected in its value afterwards. You cannot stop part way. The car unrestored is much more valuable to someone wanting to restore than one that has started a restoration and stopped 1/4th of the way.
Likewise, if you restore it and mess it up in the process, you will lose more money than you can imagine. There are "wrongly restored" Corvettes on ebay every day that easily have lost $20,000, $30,000, or more because someone screwed things up. More well-intentioned people mess things up hopelessly than you can imagine. Learn from our experiences and don't screw up.
Back to the Rembrandt. Worn condition, what to do. Try to restore and mess it up, worth now $500. Restore it right and worth a million. Sell as is and avoid the hassle at $75,000.
The same with the car. It probably could have sold for $25,000 easily the way it was. Now that you have removed the body, drop it to $17,000. If you rebuild it, maybe $30,000. If you restore it correctly 100%, then $45,000 to $60,000.
Original only happens once. That is right now. In NCRS, you probably had a candidate for Bow Tie awards and in Bloomington, Survivor awards. Soap and water and careful cleaning may have gotten you lots of awards. If you had wanted to sell, an untouched, unrestored original would have brought some bucks.
Now that you have removed the body, you can kiss both of those awards goodbye.
Either would have increased the selling value $10,000 easily.
See what I mean about doing the wrong thing? You thought frame off was right. It may have just cost you a bundle. You can't even put the body back on and get it, because they check for bolts that have been removed, items changed from original, and so on. There is no way to get the body back on without many knowing it was off.
In NCRS Bow Tie, it is recommended you do NOTHING to the car but wash it and wash it carefully so as to not remove chalk marks, grease pencil marks, and paint dabs that are all part of the manufacturing inspection process. There is only one time you can have them exactly right and that is now.
IMHO, to take one of the few originals left and do anything but preserve it or at least restore it 100% correctly is unacceptable. It is far better to sell it and buy something not so original that you can fool with and make how you want and play with daily. I don't object to modified or custom Corvettes at all. I like them. But I do think it is nearly a sin to take an original and make a custom out of it when there are so many unoriginal cars out there. people who want to modify or customize should find a nice NOM non-original Corvette and have a good time.
So back to your dilemma, what to do. You can:
1. Continue on your own and make mistake after mistake trying to learn. 2. Restore it correctly, which is expensive in time, effort, and money, and have a jewel when you are done, probably too nice to drive. 3. Sell now for good dollars and get something to drive and enjoy weekends, if not the daily drive.
What would I do? Join NCRS. Contact your local NCRS chapter to help access the car. Clean the car thoroughly, preserving all marks, tags, stickers, etc. that can be found. You will be surprised but California cars can easily still have those stenciled numbers visible under the dirt and minor surface rust. Clean too hard and they are gone. See where it stands with Bow Tie judging, then with Survivor judging. After I exhausted those possibilities, I would restore 100% to original. No shortcuts. Then when it was done, I'd buy an extra set of tires on some Crager SS mags or ET dark center mags, depending on the car color, and enjoy the weekends. You have an opportunity most only dream about. You have that date with Christie Brinkley after she broke up with Billy Joel, you have the winning lottery ticket laying on the seat in an open convertible, you are Jimmy Steward's uncle making a bank deposit in "It's a Wonderful Life". You are on the verge of having it all or losing it all. It depends on you. Don't screw up!
> Well, I'll throw open the can of worm here...I am knee deep in restoring my > '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks News - 28 Feb 2004 04:03 GMT I've received what I regard as some very good insights here but I haven't responded to anyone. In your case I'm going to make an exception. I omitted some bits of information in the original post that I didn't think relevant. Obviously for you I should have given all of the gory details. I guess I should have mentioned that the car was not just rolled into the garage 20 years ago in perfect condition and put under a tarp. It had been repainted (the wrong color) and in general had suffered from neglect for several years before it was "parked'. It was not a matter of "just a little elbow grease and a little cleaning up" to make it right. Far from it. So, while it is "original", the car was NOT an award winner by any stretch of the imagination. You could not have buffed this thing back to a "worn but original" status regardless of the effort you put into it. The only person that would have been interested in this car would have been someone interested in restoring it. Since I'm interested in doing this, don't think I'm some stumbling, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who couldn't possibly do anything right and as I seem to have a suitable candidate on which to expend my efforts, I voted to go for it.
> First, while the intentions to restore are wonderful, you may have destroyed > something even more important - originality. [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > > > > Thanks Tom in Missouri - 28 Feb 2004 06:07 GMT I guess I read more from this description than you intended.
> > '63 Corvette. This is a one-owner vehicle (my father purchased it new in
> > November of 1962) and it's been sitting in my garage for over 20-years > while [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > free. > > There are no "big" issues with this car. It needs a cleaning up, repaint,
> > new interior and replacement of all of the rubber, seals and such. Time The last two lines pretty well cover 75% of the cars out there. Nothing I read here said it was in a sorry state of abuse and neglect. Apparently from the other replies, they didn't see it either.
Sorry if you were offended.
> I've received what I regard as some very good insights here but I haven't > responded to anyone. In your case I'm going to make an exception. I [quoted text clipped - 179 lines] > > > > > > Thanks News - 28 Feb 2004 14:27 GMT In rereading my original message, I can see how you could have taken the message the way I think you interpreted it. I suppose I should have included that while the car is in good shape (hardly any rust, body straight, no major accidents, all original equipment) it is not as you say "in a sorry state of abuse and neglect". I does however need to be restored and because of all the original stuff (which BTW I still have and it's all "bagged and tagged") and the "provenance" (I have every registration slip back to the purchase, including the dealer hand-written sales tag and the salesman's business card) I think that it's an excellent candidate for a restoration. And based on that assumption and what I want to do with the car, I was seeking input on how "nuts" to get given that I do want to drive the darned thing. To give you a little background (and maybe make you feel a little better...your passion comes through in your email)
My budget for this whatever is needed but I'm expecting to spend $20 - $30K It was my dad's car so this is also partially a labor of love; there's a lot of sentimental appeal to me with this car so I won't be selling it to get a "driver" My wife has found that she LIKES working on the car with me...Hell I would have started this a long time ago if I knew this!
> I guess I read more from this description than you intended. > [quoted text clipped - 233 lines] > > > > > > > > Thanks Tom in Missouri - 28 Feb 2004 21:05 GMT Now that all the ground rules and the conditions have been stated, here are my thoughts:
1. Your Dad's car, so definitely worth keeping around and doing it right. My dad never owned a Corvette. Somehow keeping is '73 Impala isn't the same. Long gone anyway, but I could have had it.
2. Your wife likes working on it - that right there says it all.
3. A bid of caution still applies from the original. My frame was quite heavy in surface rust, like most street-driven cars, so I strip the frame bare then had it sand-blasted. That was long before chasing stencils, paper tags, chalk marks, and so on, so I wasn't doing anything out of the norm for the time. However, it did remove any chance of ever trying to find those. If such information had been common knowledge then, it would have been well worth a few days of cleaning with sponges, soap-and-water, and doing a lot of photos at different angles to gleam anything that could be found. Then I would have sandblasted it, as the frame was perfectly clean afterwards. In other words, don't jump too fast into destruction stripping like media blasting, sand blasting, paint stripping, etc. as there are many thing you can find, photograph, and then go on to the stripping.
4. Without seeing it, you may be a candidate for minor restoration. It will get you back together much faster without doing any damage to the car, your pocket, or to the longevity. Frame off IMHO is much easier to work on, however, much more intense. But you may be able to simply change out bushings, u-joints, spot clean rust, and so on without stripping the frame bare and blasting. Then again, you see it, I don't, and you have to be the judge. Still, there is nothing like working on all clean parts. As a friend once say, you can completely take a car apart in 6 days, but it can take you 6 years to get it all back together.
5. Paint, don't scrimp. You can take shortcuts everywhere but the paint because it is the ONLY thing 95% of the people see and understand. You can have a 100 pt car with bad paint but everyone will think the car stinks.
6. The Details - The ones readily visible, you might try to reproduce. The ones people need lifts and mirrors to see, do if you feel like it or if not excessively expensive. Some of these stencil kits are like $50 or so. You can buy stencil numbers at Office Depot a whole lot cheaper. So are they necessary? Probably not. Air cleaner stickers, radiator stickers, glove box stickers, definitely. Cheap, easy, and they are highly visible.
7. Original engine - real quandary. The logical choice is to set it aside, build a nice 350 to drive daily, and save the original. In practice, far too many original engines get set aside to be "saved" and are never reinstalled or even "lost" from the car forever. Then again, if you want to retain the original, and you lost a rod while driving it, it will make you wish you had a 350 in the car and the original in the garage. 50/50 proposition on your part. Ideally, you could rebuild the original with all original parts and have it complete and ready to bolt in Then build a 350 with a basic external appearance to stock Corvette. Most would never know seeing the car. The engine being complete could be swapped back in the car in a day if needed. This way you have the original, you have the play toy, and you don't have to worry. But see #9 below.
8. Interior - Original is the only way to go. While many over the years have installed other years, aftermarket, and customized the stock seats for a better ride, these all stand out as unoriginal and it is amazing how many "experts" will point this out to you like you are some idiot who doesn't know you have unoriginal seats in there. I had a midyear with flares several years back You'd be amazed of how many stopped me to tell me the car was wrong. Like I didn't know.
9. Selling - while you may not intend to sell, one day you may have to. I never intend to sell mine but if something happened to my family where I needed some cash fast, the car would be gone asap. A friend long ago left his '61 to his family for his then 16 year old son. But since he was gone and the family lost their bread winner, a few years later they sold the car because of the need for money more than the need for the car. Obviously, the father wasn't around to "put the original engine back in" or "change the seats back original" or a lot of other things people say they can do in a day if they ever need to sell. Fortunately for them, it was all together. If you were ever gone or in such a situation, wouldn't you feel better if you knew they got $35,000 instead of $25,000 out of it? (quite feasible in orig. eng vs NOM situation)
10. All the right parts - fortunately, most of what you need is already there, so this is a non-issue. But practicality comes in also. U-joints with grease fittings last longer and are common $8 items at the local store than the original '63 style at 2 or 3 times that price that have to be replaced every 5 years. Modern Goodyear, Yokohama, Goodrich, etc. tires rather than nylon bias-ply reproduction tires. Fan belts from the local pars house instead of dated, numbered reproduction items. Gas shocks instead of dated gray Delco shocks that fail in two years.
Now that isn't to say you shouldn't buy those parts, because you can buy belts, hoses, etc. and set them on the shelf for the day you decide to show it only. and the prices on that stuff never goes down. Depends on your available storage space and the extra dollars available.
11. You still have the date with Christie Brinkley right after she broke up with Billy Joel. Don't blow it. Of course, there are several ways you can go about that date and still win. It isn't a one-way-only proposition.
Good luck.
> In rereading my original message, I can see how you could have taken the > message the way I think you interpreted it. I suppose I should have [quoted text clipped - 299 lines] > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
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